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Curdog
10-09-2006, 09:57 AM
Is there a simple definition of a pinned elbow?

dr_dave
10-09-2006, 10:26 AM
"pinned": doesn't move up or down or side to side while rotating (as if a metal rod were driven through the elbow joint and held firm while the elbow pivots during your stroke).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Curdog:</font><hr> Is there a simple definition of a pinned elbow? <hr /></blockquote>

Curdog
10-09-2006, 10:33 AM
Is the elbow in line with the shot, or can it be pressed to the body? Thanks for your help.

dr_dave
10-09-2006, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Curdog:</font><hr> Is the elbow in line with the shot, or can it be pressed to the body? Thanks for your help. <hr /></blockquote>
It is generally recommended that the forearm hang down vertically when the cue tip hits the cue ball, and that the entire arm (forearm, elbow, upper arm) be in the same plane as the cue stick during the entire stroke. Whether the elbow is against the body or not will depend on your stance and body geometry.

Regards,
Dave

Stretch
10-09-2006, 06:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Curdog:</font><hr> Is the elbow in line with the shot, or can it be pressed to the body? Thanks for your help. <hr /></blockquote>
It is generally recommended that the forearm hang down vertically when the cue tip hits the cue ball, and that the entire arm (forearm, elbow, upper arm) be in the same plane as the cue stick during the entire stroke. Whether the elbow is against the body or not will depend on your stance and body geometry.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Good answer Dave. I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve. St.

Fran Crimi
10-10-2006, 05:37 AM
I've always thought a pinned elbow meant pressed to the body. But I see it can also mean locked and immobile.

Since it can potentially have a few different meanings, I probably wouldn't use it in pool terminology unless I explained what I meant by it, but then that would be defeating the purpose of using the word, wouldn't it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Fran

dr_dave
10-10-2006, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Curdog:</font><hr> Is the elbow in line with the shot, or can it be pressed to the body? Thanks for your help. <hr /></blockquote>
It is generally recommended that the forearm hang down vertically when the cue tip hits the cue ball, and that the entire arm (forearm, elbow, upper arm) be in the same plane as the cue stick during the entire stroke. Whether the elbow is against the body or not will depend on your stance and body geometry.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Good answer Dave. I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve. St. <hr /></blockquote>
Sounds like "solid" advice to me. I think many people would agree that for most shots, and for most players, consistency and accuracy will be better if nothing above the elbow (upper arm, shoulders, head, body, feet, etc.) moves during the stroke.

Dave

cushioncrawler
10-10-2006, 06:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ....I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve... <hr /></blockquote>
"Locking the shoulders" -- this sounds like good stuff to me -- it compliments "keeping the head still" etc.

My mate from Sydney said that he liked the fact that i placed my left elbow on the bed of the table whenever i could -- most top snooker players do this nowadayz -- he said that this "locked my shoulder" -- he meant my left shoulder (i am right-handed).

Doing some shadow-stroking, next to my computer, i reckon that "locking the shoulders" helps all 3 methods, ie the "pinned-elbow", the "elbow-drop", and the "elbow-raize". madMac.

Stretch
10-11-2006, 05:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ....I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve... <hr /></blockquote>
"Locking the shoulders" -- this sounds like good stuff to me -- it compliments "keeping the head still" etc.

My mate from Sydney said that he liked the fact that i placed my left elbow on the bed of the table whenever i could -- most top snooker players do this nowadayz -- he said that this "locked my shoulder" -- he meant my left shoulder (i am right-handed).

Doing some shadow-stroking, next to my computer, i reckon that "locking the shoulders" helps all 3 methods, ie the "pinned-elbow", the "elbow-drop", and the "elbow-raize". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

You got it Mate! St.

Fran Crimi
10-11-2006, 06:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My mate from Sydney said that he liked the fact that i placed my left elbow on the bed of the table whenever i could -- most top snooker players do this nowadayz -- he said that this "locked my shoulder" -- he meant my left shoulder (i am right-handed).
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Mac,

I have a term for laying the left elbow on the table. I call it 'lazy pool'. Maybe 'lazy snooker' would apply as well?? By 'lazy' I mean taking a rest while playing. I don't mean it in the context of 'lazy good-for-nothing' /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Players start to do that because it feels comfortable and it seems to take some of the weight and pressure off of the back. It's almost like taking a seat after a long time standing. It does take some pressure off of your back, but it puts a whole lot of new pressure on your shoulder and encourages a slight lean to the left, which throws the player slightly off-balance. It's not unusual to start to experience left shoulder pain after doing that for awhile. I really wish you would reconsider your choice.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-11-2006, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ....I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve... <hr /></blockquote>
"Locking the shoulders" -- this sounds like good stuff to me -- it compliments "keeping the head still" etc.

My mate from Sydney said that he liked the fact that i placed my left elbow on the bed of the table whenever i could -- most top snooker players do this nowadayz -- he said that this "locked my shoulder" -- he meant my left shoulder (i am right-handed).

Doing some shadow-stroking, next to my computer, i reckon that "locking the shoulders" helps all 3 methods, ie the "pinned-elbow", the "elbow-drop", and the "elbow-raize". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

You got it Mate! St. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Stretch!

You didn't write this but just for the record, I don't think George Fels would encourage laying down your elbow on the table. I've never seen George lay his elbow down when he plays.

Fran

Stretch
10-11-2006, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ....I'll share something that George Fells told me long ago and it's a good addition to what you just described. That is to "lock your shoulders". This will make you more solid and consistant while allowing your forearm to do it's thing. I tryed it out and it did make a difference. Apparently i was too loose in the upper body in that while i wasn't lunging there was a slight movement to initiate my shot. Not a good thing, and i suspect a lot of other players do this. Get the feeling of locking your shoulders, and your shot makeing consistancy will improve... <hr /></blockquote>
"Locking the shoulders" -- this sounds like good stuff to me -- it compliments "keeping the head still" etc.

My mate from Sydney said that he liked the fact that i placed my left elbow on the bed of the table whenever i could -- most top snooker players do this nowadayz -- he said that this "locked my shoulder" -- he meant my left shoulder (i am right-handed).

Doing some shadow-stroking, next to my computer, i reckon that "locking the shoulders" helps all 3 methods, ie the "pinned-elbow", the "elbow-drop", and the "elbow-raize". madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

You got it Mate! St. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Stretch!

You didn't write this but just for the record, I don't think George Fels would encourage laying down your elbow on the table. I've never seen George lay his elbow down when he plays.

Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Sis! No i don't believe George would either, and he's tall and lanky like me. I've always thought that a solidly "balanced" stance was the way to go and the old test of this is still valid. That is, one should be able to lift thier bridge hand off the table without falling forward.

In my case, it's more self preservation than anything else. I play a ton of pool. As a 50 year old if my form was off i'd have been crippled by now with a bad back, or blown out rotator cuffs. So far nary a twinge (knock on wood). So i'm comfident that my style will serve me well for many more years to come. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

cushioncrawler
10-11-2006, 03:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ....I have a term for laying the left elbow on the table. I call it 'lazy pool'. Maybe 'lazy snooker' would apply as well?? By 'lazy' I mean taking a rest while playing. I don't mean it in the context of 'lazy good-for-nothing' /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Players start to do that because it feels comfortable and it seems to take some of the weight and pressure off of the back. It's almost like taking a seat after a long time standing. It does take some pressure off of your back, but it puts a whole lot of new pressure on your shoulder and encourages a slight lean to the left, which throws the player slightly off-balance. It's not unusual to start to experience left shoulder pain after doing that for awhile. I really wish you would reconsider your choice... <hr /></blockquote>
I know that Geet Sethi (Indian billiards player) said that his game improved when he started to put his elbow on the table -- and my latest tapes of him show that he is still happy doing this.

My theory was that any improvement is partly due to the fact that this allmost forces u to uze a longer bridge -- and that most of us (as we improve, ie as our stroke improves) probably do better if we lengthen our bridge allso -- thusly, we take advantage of the auto-correction inherent in the "pivot-point" -- as mentioned elsewhere by Colin and Bob (and others) -- but this stuff i suppose depends on the whippyness of one's cue.

My trouble used to be that i stood too side-on, and i tucked my chin into my shoulder -- my stroke was ok, but, every year i would have a crook kneck and shoulder from the hours of solo-praktis.

Nowadayz, i stand more square-on, like the modern snooker player -- here, i dont have to place my left elbow on the table, but i do anyhow, to further relax the shoulder, koz in my case the damage iz allready done. madMac.

Qtec
10-11-2006, 10:39 PM
If you are not so tall, like me and because a snooker table is higher of the ground and you have to stretch more, a lot of the time the left arm will be on the table. This doesn't mean to say that it should take any of the weight tho.
When I play pool tho, my elbow seldom touches the cloth.

I think CC is/might be referring to the arm/shoulder lock as practised by M Stevens. He locks his elbow at arms length and in doing so locks the shoulder. The positive things are that this stops forward or vertical movement of the head/body and his eyes are always they same distance from the Qball. For most people tho this is not a comfortable position.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40825000/jpg/_40825098_cue_control203_2get.jpg

Qtec

Fran Crimi
10-12-2006, 04:31 AM
Locking your elbow isn't necessarily the same thing as laying it on the table. In the picture you posted, the rail was a factor. I'd like to see him without a long-sleeve shirt. Maybe it's the photo but it looks like he might be double-jointed.

Fran

Fran Crimi
10-12-2006, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>
I know that Geet Sethi (Indian billiards player) said that his game improved when he started to put his elbow on the table -- and my latest tapes of him show that he is still happy doing this.

My theory was that any improvement is partly due to the fact that this allmost forces u to uze a longer bridge -- and that most of us (as we improve, ie as our stroke improves) probably do better if we lengthen our bridge allso -- thusly, we take advantage of the auto-correction inherent in the "pivot-point" -- as mentioned elsewhere by Colin and Bob (and others) -- but this stuff i suppose depends on the whippyness of one's cue.

My trouble used to be that i stood too side-on, and i tucked my chin into my shoulder -- my stroke was ok, but, every year i would have a crook kneck and shoulder from the hours of solo-praktis.

Nowadayz, i stand more square-on, like the modern snooker player -- here, i dont have to place my left elbow on the table, but i do anyhow, to further relax the shoulder, koz in my case the damage iz allready done. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

I think you're right, Mac, in that if he's playing better with his arm down, it's possibly due to something else he's doing as a result. It may be something as simple as staying with the shot longer. But unless you're double-jointed in your elbow, (he might be) it's impossible to put your arm down without shifting your weight. I've got to say that it catches up with you eventually. Top players try new things all the time. I watched John Horsfall play with his weight forward for over a year. He was playing like you described, standing sideways to the cue and looking over his shoulder. I was amazed that he could play as well as he did. Suddenly, one day I noticed he had shifted his weight back and adjusted his stance. He was a different player and not only played great but started winning tough matches.

Fran