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nAz
10-09-2006, 10:49 AM
So what is the next move Bush?

North Korea Calls the U.S. Bluff
Washington has said it won't tolerate a North Korean nuclear weapon. Now, the question is whether that intolerance can be enforced...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1544033,00.html?cnn=yes

Gayle in MD
10-09-2006, 11:28 AM
Naz, that page seems to be suddenly missing.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

When cowboy diplomacy, (translation, no diplomacy) took over, the message was sent over and over, get nukes, or we're coming in to get you.

Now what? We can start, by removing all those who gave Bush a blank check, and helped him cover up all his lies, and law breaking.

Frankly, it's too late. He broke it, he owns it.

Yapping at the world and naming off 63 countries as targets, as he did in 05, and barking around about the Axis of Evil, like a bull in a china shop, everything he has done, has put us right in the middle of a mess.

Smoke screens, have a way of drifting away. Eventually, the truth becomes undeniable.


Lessons learned...never put an ex-coke head alkie into the White House, with no experience in foriegn affairs, especially if his circle is a bunch of shoulda coulda woulda's, trying to relive and transform their past failures into successes...and he thinks he was chosen by God for the job!

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
10-09-2006, 11:30 AM
Good question,I think we should ask the Chinese how they plan to respond. This is no longer a stand alone world,and the U.S. cannot maintain its position on the totem pole as permanent bully,or moral standard bearer. We should recogninze the rights of other soverign nations. At the same time, I see the possibilty of a nuclear accident in N.K. nothing to do with us of course. Chernerbal anyone? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deeman3
10-09-2006, 12:17 PM
I think you make a good point. The Japanese, Koreans and even the Chinese have much more to worry about from Kim Jung Evil getting hot with nukes than we do. Let's let them lead the way in this effort.

Deeman

pooltchr
10-09-2006, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I think you make a good point. The Japanese, Koreans and even the Chinese have much more to worry about from Kim Jung Evil getting hot with nukes than we do. Let's let them lead the way in this effort.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Not necessarily true. Directly, those countries probably have the most to worry about, but what if NK sells nukes to Syria, Iran, or maybe directly to AQ? This should be a major concern for the entire world. We can't do it all alone. The scary part is we are probably depending on the UN to do something, and so far, the only thing I've seen the UN do very closely resembles the same thing my dog does out in the back yard each morning!!!
Steve

Drop1
10-09-2006, 05:17 PM
Your dog tears up a parking ticket each morning?

pooltchr
10-09-2006, 06:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Your dog tears up a parking ticket each morning? <hr /></blockquote>

Among other things!!! LOL
She does like to eat paper...but it's the business at the other end I was thinking about!
Steve

Drop1
10-09-2006, 06:50 PM
I have often said the difference between humans and dogs,is dogs know what they are doing,when they are doing it.

Fran Crimi
10-10-2006, 05:49 AM
Hey naZ, what would be your next move? Would you have handled it differently from the beginning?


Fran

Fran Crimi
10-10-2006, 05:57 AM
Are you kidding, Steve?? The U.N. is extremely effective. You should be here in NYC trying to navigate around the East side streets when they're in session. Between the barricades and the diplomat cars, you're guaranteed to be late for wherever you're headed. I'd say that was pretty effective work on their part.

We should really kick them out of NYC and send them to Zurich where they belong.

Fran

nAz
10-10-2006, 07:36 AM
Not sure what I would have done and also when the beginning started. was it during Reagan era, Bush 41 or Clinton?... I never claimed to be a master of foreign affairs... that is why I posed the question to Mr.bUSH, he has not handled this well at all... ( who knows maybe 50 years from now people will look back and blame this all on Clinton. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) anyway to answer your question... knowing that NK was always backed by China I would have tried quietly letting China know that if they did not handle the situation immediately I would cut back on our one sided trade with them no matter how much it might hurt Walmart and all the 99 cent store around the country. I believe China still needs us more then we need them, it would have probably lit a fire under their arse and pushed them enough to face down NK and most likely the Russians would have followed along.
As for what I would do next... I'd still push China and carry through with cut backs in trade if they did not get a real handle on NK and I would push Japans government to develop nukes and take a more active stance through out that region... that might also push China.
It looks like we still have a little time to deal with NK, if they do have a nuke it must be so large and heavy that it will take some time for them to reduce the size enough so it can be carried on their largest missile. what worries me most is that they may eventually export some of what they know to some terrorist group.


Fran I'm curious how would you or anyone else here have handled it, from the beginning? Serious what should we do next since our last few "leaders" have not gotten the job done?

pooltchr
10-10-2006, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> We should really kick them out of NYC and send them to Zurich where they belong.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe we can get Q to start scouting out some possible locations! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Steve

Deeman3
10-10-2006, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I think you make a good point. The Japanese, Koreans and even the Chinese have much more to worry about from Kim Jung Evil getting hot with nukes than we do. Let's let them lead the way in this effort.

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

Not necessarily true. Directly, those countries probably have the most to worry about, but what if NK sells nukes to Syria, Iran, or maybe directly to AQ? This should be a major concern for the entire world. We can't do it all alone. The scary part is we are probably depending on the UN to do something, and so far, the only thing I've seen the UN do very closely resembles the same thing my dog does out in the back yard each morning!!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Steve,

You may have a point but I'm getting less concerned that they will bring one into Luverne, Alabama. If they hit NYC or L.A. I would not like losing some friends but I believe they would go for closer and much more accepting targets first; France, Japan and maybe S.Korea.

I am taking the more liberal view that a little explosion of rath is a good thing, as long as it stays north of the Mason/Dixon Line.</font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
10-10-2006, 09:45 AM
Naz,
I have never thought that recognizing mistakes, required that the critic must have all the answers. We can still determine mistakes, regardless of whether or not we have solutions for what has already occured. We pay our representatives a great deal, to educate themselves, and work together to form realistic policy. It is their job, not ours. When they fail, or make matters worse, it is our job to speak up, and to remove them from power.

An eighty billion dollar trade deficit with China, is ridiculous. Borrowing trillions from future potential enemies, is just plain stupid.

Occupation of Arab countries is a mistake. A war of choice, based on lies, and followed by gross incompetence, has caused us to lose credibility. Arming foreign gorilla groups, and tribes to fight our causes for us, is very foolish when our people often are slaughtered later, with our own amo.

Trying to force Democracy on other Nations, by occupying them, does not work, especially when they have not shown a spirit for the courage to rise up against their oppressors on their own, before we occupy. Refusing to talk to your enemies is an absolutely stupid course of action.

Bush is no diplomat, that's for sure. His posturing and threats show his ignorance, and throw gas on the fire, particularly in the Middle East. Occupying Iraq is the worst policy decision ever made.

The United Nations is not a perfect organization, but its purpose is more important now than ever before. It is a format for diplomacy, and international communication, which is the only alternative to war.

Just think of all the misery that war creates. Lasting misery, contaminated lands, poisoning people long after the battle is over. Deformed Children, land mines blowing their legs off, years after the wars are over. Cancer causing agents, left ot kill decades later. Infrastructures that were hard bought and built by the people who must live there, destroyed, leaving them to wander from tent to tent, cave to cave, homeless, cold and hungry.

Had Bush determined to avoid war, occupation, and Nation Building, and been committed to using diplomacy, garnering the committment and respect of other Nations, endeavored to fine tune the workings of the U.N., and worked for unity, rather than division, compassion for the suffering, rather than destruction of their home land, and the building of allies, rather than expanding enemies, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

Given Iraq, and the middle east, is a huge source of energy which is important to the whole world, his bull in the china cabinet approach, thumbing his nose at the rest of the world, using false, rigged intel to justify policy, was the worst policy that could have occured at this time.

No matter how he spins it, our massive debt, and trade deficits, have weakened our strength economically. His tax policy is insane, when it requires future generations to suffer later for the resulting debt. All these issues factor into our position, and circumstances with North Korea. Making Iraq his target, at a time when our country needed to focuss on making bin Laden's capture our number one priority, was not the correct decision. Jumping into Iraq, without finishing Afghanistan, resulting in kaos in both regions, proves that he has been unrealitic, used poor judgment, and has chosen the wrong people to operate and formulate our strategy. Misleading us intentionally of their plight, in order to cover up for his incompetence, buying time to stay with an already failed policy, while leaving our troops to be slaughterd, in an effort to deny his failures, is disgusting.

Using the United Nations, right after 9/11, and capitalizing on the good will which was coming our way, after 9/11, in order to build cohesive determination among the other nations of the world, to find and fracture the infrastructure of the terrorists organizations, which threaten many countries, would have been the best course of action, IMO. We could still have addressed Iraq, and Saddam, but done so in an effective manner, from a position of strength, and respect, with many allies, and heeding the advice of experts who knew the likely results we would face, who understood the many complex relationships among the many ethnic, and religious groups, and how their philosophies would impact our goals.

When he stood before the world, throwing out his threats, condemning, offending and ridiculing many other countries, throwing out ultimatums, with us or against us, naming and labeling as evil, future targets, behaving like the king of the universe, and then following all that bravado with gross incompetence, he destroyed generations of progress on the international level. He has made our country a joke, and a target, weakened our resolve as a nation, and destroyed opportunities to enlist other nations to trust his judgment, and his word. His inhumane policies have narrowed the differences betweeen our stature, and the cut-throat, demons we face, causing many Americans, great shame and embarrassment, and leaving our nation open to ridicule. We cannot be a great leader of the other nations of the world, unless we can maintain their repsect. Our policies must assuage suffering, not add to it.

jGayle in Md.

Drop1
10-10-2006, 10:08 AM
Since 1997 Pakistan has been helping NK with nuclear technology,and war head-design,giving NK weapons testing data. In return Pakistan received missles from NK,to use on India. Pakistan is our allie,and at the same time there is a lot of sympathy for Al Qaeda there. Both Clinton,and Bush knew of Pakistan's role in helping NK develop nuclear weapons,but nothing was done,because Pakistan is a good source of information on terrorists. Remember the tip off on the planes out of England was a phone call from Pakistan. nAz,I don't think China worries much about the U.S.,as long as we keep fighting in Iraq,and they go around the world,cutting deals for natural resources;mining in Africa,oil in Venezuela,steel,and lumber from everywhere.So what we do about NK is nothing. Instead we stay the course,and keep borrowing money from China,the new world leader.

FatsRedux
10-10-2006, 11:48 AM
The Security Council will punish Kim severely. He will be made to go to the naughty spot and will be poked in the head with the corner of a small pillow. He will also be forced to boot out two of the girls in his "Joy Brigade". Lastly, he will only be allowed the use of his own personal private theme park on alternate weekends for two months.

Fran Crimi
10-10-2006, 12:46 PM
Well, I don't mean this to sound like a cop-out, naZ, but I don't know how I would have handled the situation because I don't have all the facts. We'll never really know for sure how this and other administrations handled this because so much of the diplomatic back and forth between governments is kept secret. This isn't the '60's anymore and I'm sure the nations comunicate with each other. I'm sure there has been ample amounts of back and forth going on for quite awhile between the U.S., China and several nations over this NK problem.

Fran

Qtec
10-10-2006, 06:38 PM
web page (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1544033,00.html?cnn=yes)

Q

Qtec
10-10-2006, 06:49 PM
My 2ct. Nuclear weapons are for defense only.

Q

Deeman3
10-11-2006, 05:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> My 2ct. Nuclear weapons are for defense only.

Q <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Please convince Libia, N. Korea and Iran of that and I'll be on board.

DeeMan </font color>

Gayle in MD
10-11-2006, 05:56 AM
Thanks Q.,
I cannot understand the philosophy of refusing to talk to countries that are clearly future threats, in advance of such developments. Rice has defended Bush's No talks policies, recently, since other former National Security Secretaries, and Agency heads have spoken out against Bush's policy, (of refusing to talk with our perceived enemies) and she has stated, in his defense, and her own, that her assistant has been to North Korea, lol.

Personally, If I was running a country and others nearby had nukes, I'd be damned sure my country had them too! Wouldn't you?

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
10-11-2006, 07:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Personally, If I was running a country and others nearby had nukes, I'd be damned sure my country had them too! Wouldn't you?

Gayle in Md.

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

While I agree with your assessment of wanting nukes if my neighbor has them, most of the ones who now have them are somewhat restrained politically and are a small risk to actually use them. I feel the ones on the verge of getting them just don't care and would use them against Isreal in a New York minute. The danger of this is that the one responsible country in the area, Isreal, will respond in kind and we all know what that would mean for the middle east. Given all the hype over this (and it may just be an attention getting scheme from N. Korea) when Iran is really close (Massad will know) the Israelis will take appropriate action, no matter the case made by the west. </font color>

DeeMan

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-11-2006, 07:31 AM
I agree completly. What do you think would have helped the situation over these last six years, though. Intense Bi-lateral talks between the U.S. and Iran and U.S./North Korea, or refusing to talk to them, while calling them names of evil, and drawing lines in the sand, on which we can't follow up?

Do you think N.Korea wants to bribe us for money?

It seems to me that sanctions only hurt the population. People are hungry over there, and being starved by their own leaders. I'd rather see our leaders make humane efforts first, before they start throwing out ultimatums.

Both these despots have indicated a desire to talk with us. I don't think Bush's refusal to communicate with them is the right course to take. Although I agree, that now, we should insist on the support of the others, China, Japan, etc., I can't see how it helps us to isolate ourselves from problems, while they continue to grow to emergency levels, can you?

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
10-11-2006, 08:04 AM
Flashback. web page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1908571.stm)

[ QUOTE ]
The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.
Under the 1994 Agreed Framework an international consortium is building two proliferation-proof nuclear reactors and providing fuel oil for North Korea while the reactors are being built.

In releasing the funding, President George W Bush waived the Framework's requirement that North Korea allow inspectors to ensure it has not hidden away any weapons-grade plutonium from the original reactors.

President Bush argued that the decision was "vital to the national security interests of the United States".

<hr /></blockquote>

Q

nAz
10-11-2006, 08:24 AM
looks like Bush is gonna have to give NK what it always wanted direct talks, security guarantees and recognition. wonder if they will keep on counterfeiting US money?

Deeman3
10-11-2006, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I agree completly. What do you think would have helped the situation over these last six years, though. Intense Bi-lateral talks between the U.S. and Iran and U.S./North Korea, or refusing to talk to them, while calling them names of evil, and drawing lines in the sand, on which we can't follow up? <font color="blue"> I believe that the bi-lateral talks you mention would be appropriate. However, N.Korea only wants to talk to us. That seems dangerous as every country that wants to pressure us and us alone for money and support and legitmacy would then do the same. We are not the only ones with cards on the table here and meeting alone with N.Korea wou,d efectively shut out China, Japan, S. Korea and others. </font color>

Do you think N.Korea wants to bribe us for money? <font color="blue"> Does Earl have a bad temper? </font color>

It seems to me that sanctions only hurt the population. People are hungry over there, and being starved by their own leaders. I'd rather see our leaders make humane efforts first, before they start throwing out ultimatums. <font color="blue"> While I see your point here, sanctions are about the only way we have of putting pressure on the N. Korea government and the unrest it causes can have good effects on the growing unrest within the country. </font color>

Both these despots have indicated a desire to talk with us. I don't think Bush's refusal to communicate with them is the right course to take. Although I agree, that now, we should insist on the support of the others, China, Japan, etc., I can't see how it helps us to isolate ourselves from problems, while they continue to grow to emergency levels, can you? <font color="blue"> I think much of this is opportunism because of many factors at this time. The N. Koreans don't have enough technolgy, delivery systems or much else that really threatens us at this point. I think we must handle it with the other couontries and not meet unilaterally with them just yet. This would play into China and Russian's hands. Just to make you feel better, I'm not ready to nuke them, just yet.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-11-2006, 09:20 AM
Jeeze...why did he do that? I haven't read this before...

Gayle

Drop1
10-11-2006, 11:07 AM
North Korea is very good at building weapons,including miss eles. Pakistan is very good at nuclear tecnology,but not so hot at making misseles. The head of Pakistans nuculear program visited Pyongyang fifteen times. I don't think it was for the wheather. I think we should try to see what Pakistan gave them. Since 1985,when North Korea signed the non nuclear proliferation agreement, later to be kicked out for non compliance,to the present,they have never bent their goal to have nuclear power,nor have they entered into any talks,with an honest intent to address themselves as part of a problem. I think its time we ship nuclear misseles to South Korea,and tell NK to talk to China.

Chopstick
10-13-2006, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>

Do you think N.Korea wants to bribe us for money? <font color="blue"> Does Earl have a bad temper? </font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Ho. They want South Korea. That's the only logical reason that they want to talk to us alone. Everything they do is going to be a step along that path. All of this other stuff is just smoke and mirrors.