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Bassn7
10-14-2006, 12:39 PM
Does a radial pin directly into wood have a "more solid" feel than a stainless joint? Does it last as long or wear out and become loose with age?

Tony_in_MD
10-15-2006, 05:13 AM
There are basicly two types of cue joints.

Flat faced
Piloted

Flat faced joints have the pin go directly into the wood shaft. The most common pins for a flat faced jolint are 3/8 x 10, Radial and 3/8 X 11. I am sure that there are more pin types but I am only mentioning those I have had experience with.

A piloted joint typically has a brass insert inside the shaft that the pin screws into. Piloted joints are characterized by smaller pins, with more threads per inch. 5/8 X 16 comes to mind as a common pin type.

For both types of joints you can have a variety of joint materials

Stgainless Steel
Ivory
Phenolic
Wood

The major difference then, is the pin and how the pin is inserted into the shaft.

I have hit with all types of cues, the feel want is a matter of personal preference. I like the feel and sound of a big pin (3/8 X10) or Radial in Stainless. Very firm hit. When these pins are in ivory or phenolic joints the feel is just as solid, just a little softer (IMO)I like them too.

With the big pins, since you are screwing the pin directly into the wood of the shaft, the wood does wear out (in time) and can become looser with age.

For that reason I think the Radial pins are a bit better, the design of the pin creates less wear on the shaft.

Fran Crimi
10-15-2006, 06:18 AM
Great post. Very educational. It's interesting that what you describe as a firm hit, I describe as a harsh hit. To me, it feels like when the vibration of the hit runs down the shaft and hits the stainless joint, it's like hitting a tuning fork and runs back up the shaft for a double-whammy.

I prefer that the vibration not run back up the shaft. Phenolic and wood seem to be good extensions of the wood shaft to keep things constant and more natural.

As for the firmness of the hit, I attribute that mostly to the shaft taper and hardness of the shaft wood.

Fran

Rich R.
10-15-2006, 06:39 AM
I can't contribute much to this discussion, as I am far from an expert on the topic of cue joints and I have not tried them all.

What I can pass on are the words of Tim Scruggs. To paraphase Tim, he said, any type of joint is good, as long as it is done correctly.

pooltchr
10-15-2006, 07:35 AM
Fran,
Good description of the different properties of the joints. I played with a stainless steel joint for years. When I tried the radial pin into wood, I found it felt much more natural. With nothing to compare it to, the SS joint seemed fine to me. But after going to the RP, I doubt I would ever be happy with stainless again.
Steve

Tony_in_MD
10-15-2006, 03:46 PM
I have never felt the vibration run back up the shaft. I have 2 Scruggs with the big pin, one stainless the other ivory. I will make it a point to see if I notice this in the future as I play.

Of the two the stainless steel joint is my daily player.

Besides shaft taper and the density of the shaft wood the tip also has a lot to do with the feeling of the hit.

Finally it really is all a matter of personal preference.
Wouldn't it be a boring world if all liked the same thing?

ceebee
10-15-2006, 04:29 PM
I have a dozen different cues. Some have a wood to wood, some are Stainless & a couple are Implex. The cues range from a Richard Black to Schon to Pechauer to McDermott to Huebler to a Sneaky Pete with a Radial Pin.

I wouldn't have them if they didn't feel good & have a good consistant hit.

In 50 years, I have played with lots of Cues. Name brand means nothing to me, nor does the style of JOINT. I thought I didn't like flat faced joints, but my Buddy's McDermott has a hit to die for, just like the other cues I have.

Good luck to all of you, in your search for a Magic Wand.

Fran Crimi
10-16-2006, 05:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tony_in_MD:</font><hr> I have never felt the vibration run back up the shaft. I have 2 Scruggs with the big pin, one stainless the other ivory. I will make it a point to see if I notice this in the future as I play.

Of the two the stainless steel joint is my daily player.

Besides shaft taper and the density of the shaft wood the tip also has a lot to do with the feeling of the hit.

Finally it really is all a matter of personal preference.
Wouldn't it be a boring world if all liked the same thing?

<hr /></blockquote>

It's all about what it feels like to you. As you said, it's a very individual thing. I've played with stainless steel jointed cues half of my playing life and that's the best way I can describe how the hit feels to me.

Just in case people don't realize this, just because it appears that a cue has a stainless joint, you have to look closer at it because it may just have a stainless collar. In order for it to react as a stainless joint it must be solid stainless.

Fran

14oneman
10-16-2006, 06:55 AM
I prefer a piloted stainless steel joint. I feel it gives the most solid hit.

Also, someone mentioned in a post above, that a flat faced joint threads directly into the wood on the shaft. This isn't aways true. Just because a cue has a flat faced joint, it may still have a brass insert on the shaft. Meucci, as well as several other known cues, use this technique. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Cueless Joey
10-16-2006, 07:48 AM
The best joint is the radial pin with staghorn collars imo.
The cue feels like one piece.

Fran Crimi
10-16-2006, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 14oneman:</font><hr> ...Also, someone mentioned in a post above, that a flat faced joint threads directly into the wood on the shaft. This isn't aways true. Just because a cue has a flat faced joint, it may still have a brass insert on the shaft. Meucci, as well as several other known cues, use this technique. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Okay! I thought so, but I thought I may have been wrong. I thought I was playing with a flat-faced joint all this time and then after reading Tony's post, I thought I might not be. Good to hear that I am, after all.

Thanks!

Fran

14oneman
10-16-2006, 07:53 AM
Your welcome Fran! Glad I could help! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cornerman
10-16-2006, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>What I can pass on are the words of Tim Scruggs. To paraphase Tim, he said, any type of joint is good, as long as it is done correctly.<hr /></blockquote>

and

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ceebee:</font><hr> In 50 years, I have played with lots of Cues. Name brand means nothing to me, nor does the style of JOINT. I thought I didn't like flat faced joints, but my Buddy's McDermott has a hit to die for, just like the other cues I have.<hr /></blockquote>
Exactamundo!

What happens is that some players will try a cue here, and cue there, and assume that all cues with the same looking joint will feel the same. And this isn't true.

The feel of the cue is mostly due to the cuemaker's execution. In a blind taste test, anyone would be hard pressed to know with any certainy whether a Tim Scruggs cue was a stainless steel, an ivory, or a phenolic joint. I have a flat-faced cue that with a blind taste test, I'm sure most people would swear it's steel.

Also, I know people say that a threaded wood shaft will wear out over time. I'm sure it can, but I've never seen one. My break cue is 3/8ths-10 directly into wood.

And, to the original poster, I think today's radial joint is good and solid, but it in of itself doesn't guarantee squat. I can show you fine examples of radial pins, flat-faced that simply play much harsher/harder than what you'd expect.

Fred

Bassn7
10-16-2006, 11:14 AM
Cueless Joey, and all others: who makes cues with the radial pins and staghorn collars?

Cueless Joey
10-16-2006, 06:43 PM
I do.
I dunno who else.