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View Full Version : Follow Thru Draw vs. Snap Back Draw



bluey2king
10-17-2006, 08:11 AM
I just viewed The Monks video on Draw strokes.
I watched him do a drill with the 9ball at the center of the table and along the long side rail the OB at the first diamond and the CB just past the second diamond. The idea is to pocket the OB in the cornner pocket and draw back to both sides of the 9ball far side and near side.
The far side he uses a follow thru draw that has the CB curve after contact with the OB for position on the 9ball to the near side pocket.
The near side draw shot he uses a Snap Back draw and the CB comes straight back for position on the 9ball to the far side pocket.
My question is this for real??
I see him using a twisting motion with his back hand which made me think he is using english but he seems to do it with both shots. Next I think he is cheating the pocket to get an angle.
I am not sure of the dynamics of this has anyone here any knowlage of these strokes?
If so could you tell me your take on this?
Thanks

Bob_Jewett
10-17-2006, 08:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I just viewed The Monks video on Draw strokes.
...
My question is this for real??
...
If so could you tell me your take on this?
<hr /></blockquote>
I urge you to get your information elsewhere.

The angle the cue ball comes off the object ball with draw is determined by how much draw it has (relative to its speed) and the angle of the cut. No special kind of stroke is required to achieve one path or the other. You should set the amount of draw by how low you hit the ball. Follow-through, punchiness of stroke, firmness of grip are all insignificant compared to how low (and how hard) you hit the cue ball in determining draw.

Some instructors try to make this a lot more complicated than it really is, perhaps because they are confused themselves or because they want to impress the student with phony secrets.

dave
10-17-2006, 09:38 AM
And all this time I thought it was some kind of Zen telekinesis!

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I just viewed The Monks video on Draw strokes.
...
My question is this for real??
...
If so could you tell me your take on this?
<hr /></blockquote>
I urge you to get your information elsewhere.

The angle the cue ball comes off the object ball with draw is determined by how much draw it has (relative to its speed) and the angle of the cut. No special kind of stroke is required to achieve one path or the other. You should set the amount of draw by how low you hit the ball. Follow-through, punchiness of stroke, firmness of grip are all insignificant compared to how low (and how hard) you hit the cue ball in determining draw.

Some instructors try to make this a lot more complicated than it really is, perhaps because they are confused themselves or because they want to impress the student with phony secrets. <hr /></blockquote>

Agreed.

Snake oil comes to mind.

Dave

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 09:55 AM
FYI, there's a lot of good advice for an effective draw shot under the links under "draw" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html). You might also find useful and interesting my January-July'06 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) dealing with draw technique and understanding.

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I just viewed The Monks video on Draw strokes.
I watched him do a drill with the 9ball at the center of the table and along the long side rail the OB at the first diamond and the CB just past the second diamond. The idea is to pocket the OB in the cornner pocket and draw back to both sides of the 9ball far side and near side.
The far side he uses a follow thru draw that has the CB curve after contact with the OB for position on the 9ball to the near side pocket.
The near side draw shot he uses a Snap Back draw and the CB comes straight back for position on the 9ball to the far side pocket.
My question is this for real??
I see him using a twisting motion with his back hand which made me think he is using english but he seems to do it with both shots. Next I think he is cheating the pocket to get an angle.
I am not sure of the dynamics of this has anyone here any knowlage of these strokes?
If so could you tell me your take on this?
Thanks <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
10-17-2006, 11:12 AM
What's up Doc?"http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0c/Bugsbunny_rabbit_transit.jpg/200px-Bugsbunny_rabbit_transit.jpg

...with the site? none of the pdf links open for me...I'm running XP...Firefox...and have Adobe reader.
Any ideas??

bluey2king
10-17-2006, 11:46 AM
It funny you said "Snake Oil" because I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems he spends more time on his video trying to recruit and sell the next thing or level or whatever. I didn't want to offend any of his students.

Now what makes the CB curve on some draw shots I think its that deflection of the collision then the spin takes.

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>none of the pdf links open for me...I'm running XP...Firefox...and have Adobe reader.
Any ideas??<hr /></blockquote>
Nope. I haven't heard this one before. Has anybody else experienced this trouble?

Have you tried downloading the files to your computer first instead? You can do this by right-clicking on any of the articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html), and selecting "Save Target As."

Also, do you have trouble with PDFs from other people (e.g., Bob's articles (http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html)?

Please let me know if you figure out what the problem is.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> It funny you said "Snake Oil" because I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems he spends more time on his video trying to recruit and sell the next thing or level or whatever. I didn't want to offend any of his students.

Now what makes the CB curve on some draw shots I think its that deflection of the collision then the spin takes.<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I was probably a little out of line being disrespectful to a fellow author. I usually don't do that because I know how much energy and dedication it takes to write a book. Also, "The Monk" does have many "followers," so his stuff does seem to work for some people. If he has helped people improve or enjoy the game more, he deserves some credit. I do respect him for the impact he has had, even if I don't agree with his approach.

Respectfully,
Dave

Jal
10-17-2006, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr>...Now what makes the CB curve on some draw shots I think its that deflection of the collision then the spin takes. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, that's right. Technically, they both take place at the same time - the backspin is doing its job throughout. The cueball follows the same kind of curved path as a ball thrown in the air, only the curve isn't as tight.

Jim

wolfdancer
10-17-2006, 02:47 PM
I couldn't open an Amazon.com pdf either...so, on a hunch, I switched to IE...and now all the pdf's open

heater451
10-17-2006, 04:53 PM
This may be a dumb question, but have you installed the add-on (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/636/) ?



=====================

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I couldn't open an Amazon.com pdf either...so, on a hunch, I switched to IE...and now all the pdf's open<hr /></blockquote>
Welcome to the 21st century.

I hope you find some of the articles interesting and useful.

Dave

wolfdancer
10-17-2006, 06:19 PM
No, I wasn't aware of it....thanks!!!!

wolfdancer
10-17-2006, 06:23 PM
Also, Heater pointed out an add-on for Firefox....

Now if I can just get my 8 track working...what was that remark about the 21st century?
Hey, there's folks my age can't turn these things on. They have classes at the local aux college center to teach folks how to email.

dr_dave
10-17-2006, 06:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Also, Heater pointed out an add-on for Firefox....<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for the info. I also run Firefox with no problems. I don't think I had to load any special add-ons.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Now if I can just get my 8 track working...what was that remark about the 21st century?
Hey, there's folks my age can't turn these things on. They have classes at the local aux college center to teach folks how to email.<hr /></blockquote>
I hope you didn't take my 21st centure remark as disrespectful. I was just pulling your leg since you sometimes pull mine.

Dave

wolfdancer
10-17-2006, 06:46 PM
I was joking too....but I have friends that are more confused then I am about computers.

I've actually gotten more help from people here...about computers, then about pool.

Dagwood
10-17-2006, 07:30 PM
The amount of draw you recieve is relative to how low you hit the cue, speed of the cue upon contact and acceleration of the cuetip through the entirety of the contact (stroking smoothly through, not punching at the cueball). How you deliver the cue to the cueball doesn't make a difference whether or not you twist your wrist or drop or raise your elbow, as long as the cuetip at the time of impact accelerates on as level a plane as you can get through the cue. As far as how the cue comes of the object ball, it's all dependant on what angle it hits the cueball.

Dags

dr_dave
10-18-2006, 07:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> The amount of draw you recieve is relative to how low you hit the cue, speed of the cue upon contact and acceleration of the cuetip through the entirety of the contact (stroking smoothly through, not punching at the cueball).<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, acceleration during the 1/1000 second of cue tip contact is insignificant. Follow through (and whether or not you punch at the ball) also has no direct impact on the shot. The only things the cue ball cares about is cue tip offset and cue speed at impact. Now, a punchy stroke and/or poor follow-through can be symptoms of poor stroke mechanics, so even though they don't directly affect the cue ball, they can be indicators of problems. See my May '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/may06.pdf) for more information and details.

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
10-18-2006, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> The amount of draw you recieve is relative to how low you hit the cue, speed of the cue upon contact and acceleration of the cuetip through the entirety of the contact (stroking smoothly through, not punching at the cueball).<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, acceleration during the 1/1000 second of cue tip contact is insignificant. Follow through (and whether or not you punch at the ball) also has no direct impact on the shot. The only things the cue ball cares about is cue tip offset and cue speed at impact. <font color="blue"> As a non-PHD, I might add the cue ball is also passionate about the adhesion between the tip of the cue and the cue ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> Now, a punchy stroke and/or poor follow-through can be symptoms of poor stroke mechanics, so even though they don't directly affect the cue ball, they can be indicators of problems. See my May '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/may06.pdf) for more information and details.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
10-18-2006, 08:33 AM
Agreed. The cue ball is quite passionate about adhesion. Ms. CB is also quite sensitive about her weight, and she likes clean balls.

Regards,
Dave

PS: On a serious note, I was assuming with my statements that there is no miscue. My article covers this and other cue ball passions in detail.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dagwood:</font><hr> The amount of draw you recieve is relative to how low you hit the cue, speed of the cue upon contact and acceleration of the cuetip through the entirety of the contact (stroking smoothly through, not punching at the cueball).<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, acceleration during the 1/1000 second of cue tip contact is insignificant. Follow through (and whether or not you punch at the ball) also has no direct impact on the shot. The only things the cue ball cares about is cue tip offset and cue speed at impact. <font color="blue"> As a non-PHD, I might add the cue ball is also passionate about the adhesion between the tip of the cue and the cue ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color> Now, a punchy stroke and/or poor follow-through can be symptoms of poor stroke mechanics, so even though they don't directly affect the cue ball, they can be indicators of problems. See my May '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/may06.pdf) for more information and details.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
10-18-2006, 08:45 AM
But he too was wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

dr_dave
10-18-2006, 08:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> But he too was wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
I didn't know what you meant at first, until I looked at your subject line. That's not a very flattering comparison. I sure hope for your sake that the Monk Followers don't know where you live. It's my understanding that he has a fairly large congregation in Texas (woops ... I just helped the Followers narrow your location down to a particular state).

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
10-18-2006, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> But he too was wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
I didn't know what you meant at first, until I looked at your subject line. That's not a very flattering comparison. I sure hope for your sake that the Monk Followers don't know where you live. It's my understanding that he has a fairly large congregation in Texas (woops ... I just helped the Followers narrow your location down to a particular state).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I'm still not sure you followed my meaning - it was intended to be neither flattering nor unflattering, merely dark humor. I'd hoped the smiley would provide sufficent guidance as to my intent.

But the underlying point is that it is possible to convince many people of incorrect facts. There's no safety in numbers.

Sometimes all people need to see is that others have been convinced, then they forego the logic test themselves and just follow along.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
10-18-2006, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> But he too was wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>
I didn't know what you meant at first, until I looked at your subject line. That's not a very flattering comparison. I sure hope for your sake that the Monk Followers don't know where you live. It's my understanding that he has a fairly large congregation in Texas (woops ... I just helped the Followers narrow your location down to a particular state).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I'm still not sure you followed my meaning - it was intended to be neither flattering nor unflattering, merely dark humor.

But the underlying point is that it is possible to convince many people of incorrect facts. There's no safety in numbers.

Sometimes all people need to see is that others have been convinced, then they forego the logic test themselves and just follow along.

SpiderMan<hr /></blockquote>
I think I understood what you meant, but thanks for the clarification. My point still applies. You might want to consider wearing a disguise when in the presence of Monk Followers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

May the force be with you,
Dave

Deeman3
10-18-2006, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>(woops ... I just helped the Followers narrow your location down to a particular state).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Not to worry, Spiderman is the easiest man in the State of Texas to find. Most people with hostile intent will rue the day they catch up with him. I know Tim Miller and like him but even his best students don't want to face the SPIDER on a bar box.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif</font color>

DeeMan

bluey2king
10-18-2006, 01:01 PM
Thanks! Your help saved me a lot of time!
New Question
I assume that the same applies for force follow. I was was practicing last night and it seems to me when I hit it too hard (with high tip) I did not not get as good a distance on the force follow as I did when I hit it a bit lighter. If the contact between OB and CB is to hard is there a stun reaction? I noticed that the CB track after the collison went about 90 degrees (or one rail when I wanted two)I wanted 30 degrees of CB track so the CB would hit the corner rails and travel all the way back up table thats why I was hitting it so hard.
There seems to be a sweet spot. What is the key to getting the most spin?
How best to get to that sweet spot without three or four tries?

Thanks

Jal
10-18-2006, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr>...If the contact between OB and CB is to hard is there a stun reaction?<hr /></blockquote>Not really, if I understand what you're asking. There's no major change in how the cueball reacts off the object ball, other than moving faster.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I noticed that the CB track after the collison went about 90 degrees (or one rail when I wanted two)I wanted 30 degrees of CB track so the CB would hit the corner rails and travel all the way back up table thats why I was hitting it so hard.
There seems to be a sweet spot. What is the key to getting the most spin?
How best to get to that sweet spot without three or four tries?

Thanks <hr /></blockquote>How far off to the side the cueball juts out before moving forward and reaching natural roll is a matter of speed. Putting more spin on the cueball by hitting harder/higher does not cause the ball to curve sooner. The friction with the cloth is the same, or very nearly so, no matter how much spin you put on it.

It sounds like what was happening is that the cueball was hugging the tangent line and hitting the cushion before it had a chance to curve very much. Like you discovered, hitting it slower gave it more time to do this. If you need more speed, you can hit it harder and use english along with topspin to bring it off the first rail at a shallower angle.

Hope that makes sense.

Edit: Actually, there are a couple of things that make the cueball's reaction a little different on these type of shots. The ball squirts down toward the cloth and will have a tendency to get a little airborne. And friction (vertical throw) off the object ball will also lift it some. Both will delay the onset of the curve since, obviously, the cueball's not touching the cloth.

Jim

bluey2king
10-19-2006, 06:09 AM
Thanks Jim that did help. I was praticing last and I was getting good action on the CB I focused on level cue and smooth stroke.
Thanks to all for chipping in I like these topics!