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nAz
10-18-2006, 12:33 PM
10-17-2006 , 03:24 PM

Ruling Worries Employees and Investors Who Lost Billions

By Carrie Johnson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 17, 2006; 3:34 PM

A federal judge in Houston this afternoon wiped away the fraud and conspiracy conviction of Kenneth L. Lay, the Enron Corp. founder who died of heart disease in July, bowing to decades of legal precedent but frustrating government attempts to seize nearly $44 million from his estate.

The ruling worried employees and investors who lost billions of dollars when the Houston energy trading company filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2001. It also came weeks after Congress recessed for the November elections without acting on a last-ditch Justice Department proposal that would have changed the law to allow prosecutors to seize millions in investments and other assets that Lay controlled.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101700808.html



wow in death he is cleared.. this what i found...

Quote:
U.S. District Judge Sim Lake, in a ruling Tuesday, agreed with Lay's lawyers that his death required erasing his convictions. They cited a 2004 ruling from the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that found that a defendant's death pending appeal extinguished his entire case because he hadn't had a full opportunity to challenge the conviction and the government shouldn't be able to punish a dead defendant or his estate.


but i think they can get the Monies through a civil suit, i mean if i was a direct victim i would think it worth a shot.

Gayle in MD
10-18-2006, 12:58 PM
See what I mean about these wealthy, fascist, CEO thieves? They're dead, and they STILL get special steatment!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

wolfdancer
10-18-2006, 01:34 PM
No, this really is the law. Unfortunate for those hoping to recover some losses...but the lawyers would have gotten the lion's share anyway.
I think the assets should have been seized under RICO. Seems like that would be then upheld when the co-concpirators were convicted

Drop1
10-18-2006, 07:12 PM
Gayle,you know it is always screw those least able to resist. I'm sure this law was intended to be used in another way,but with a little imagination,and a dead guy all the original intent is gone,and thousands of people harmed. Lay had been convicted. I think the appeal should have been denied,and the original conviction made to stand,including a redress for damages. There must be some Lay money not burning in hell. The biggest joke,is the way the conumer price index is calcalated. If the government was held to the same accounting standards,as business every Social Security recepient would now be receiving seventy percent more in benefits. Clinton was my man,but I think he knew how much his formula would harm the poor.

Gayle in MD
10-18-2006, 07:43 PM
So, forgive me, but I am not familiar with the law in such circumstances, but are you saying that those who were bilked, will now be unable to sue his heirs? If so, then that sucks. His wife get's to scoop up what is left? Unbelievable!!! Disgusting! Must have been one of the good ol' boy conservative judges involved in this decision. I know Bush would pull every string in his portfolio to help out the rich widow of one of his many crook friends!

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
10-18-2006, 08:31 PM
You are right,it would appear the estate of a person who dies,while their case is on appeal, leaves their heirs open rights to proceed in acquring any part of the estate. I do not believe it would be a quick process.

nAz
10-18-2006, 10:19 PM
i think the victims will end up with about enough change to buy a bottle of water,,, the lawyers will keepp the rest

pooltchr
10-19-2006, 05:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> So, forgive me, but I am not familiar with the law in such circumstances, but are you saying that those who were bilked, will now be unable to sue his heirs? If so, then that sucks. His wife get's to scoop up what is left? Unbelievable!!! Disgusting! Must have been one of the good ol' boy conservative judges involved in this decision. I know Bush would pull every string in his portfolio to help out the rich widow of one of his many crook friends!

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
They can address the situation with a civil suit...it's only the criminal charges that come under this law. Remember O.J.??
Steve

Qtec
10-19-2006, 05:10 AM
O.J still hasn't paid a cent! Never will.

Q

DickLeonard
10-19-2006, 05:19 AM
Pooltchr The family attempt to get OJ publicity rights was thrown out of court. They got a 38 million dollar judgement and so far have received Zero.

I was wondering if he had an open casket or his good friend GWB had him put in the Witness Protection Program. It was the least he could do for him to pay him back for his Air-Taxi service.

God I couldn't contain myself for 10 minutes.LOL####

wolfdancer
10-19-2006, 11:43 AM
I Googled R.I.C.O. and it sure looks applicable to me., even mentions stock sales,etc...there have been civil suits filed successfully under RICO

nAz
10-19-2006, 12:49 PM
Rico charges for upstanding citizens like him and his crew? never happen.

eg8r
10-19-2006, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Pooltchr The family attempt to get OJ publicity rights was thrown out of court. They got a 38 million dollar judgement and so far have received Zero. <hr /></blockquote> Exactly. The victims can sue till they are blue in the face, but actually collecting is a whole other story.

eg8r

cushioncrawler
10-19-2006, 06:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> ...Gayle, They can address the situation with a civil suit...it's only the criminal charges that come under this law. Remember O.J.?? ... <hr /></blockquote>
OJ is innocent -- big difference. madMac.

Qtec
10-19-2006, 07:08 PM
He was found culpable in a civil court.

Q.I think?..Pretty sure.

cushioncrawler
10-19-2006, 07:21 PM
Simpson didnt do it -- Simpson did it (this should be eezy to work out). I feel sorry for OJ, what a pozzy to be in -- OJ knows who did it (and i thort that everyone knew). Its a very similar case to that cute little girl that was (accidentally) killed some years back -- and they trialled the parents -- very similar (and here again, i thort that everyone knew who did it). madMac.

Qtec
10-19-2006, 07:36 PM
OJ did it.
Dont you know there was a witness who saw OJ in his car driving from the murder scene? The idiot of a prosecuter decided, for God knows what reason, not to use her as a witness!
Have you forgotten OJ driving with a zillion police cars after him while he is talking with his lawyer on the phone?
Is that the action of an innocent man?
Any normal/innocent person would pull over and say,"whats the problem officer?".

Or not?

IMO, its not complicated.

Q

wolfdancer
10-19-2006, 08:54 PM
Dick, ain't this sick...O.J. is getting $3.5 mil to write a book...sort of about...this is how I would have done it...IF I had done it.
And he has plans to spend the money fast, before they can get a judgement against him.
Only key evidence missing from the O.J. trial was a "Zapruder film"
I guess Barry's trying to make up for that failed justice with his "Innocence Project"

cushioncrawler
10-19-2006, 11:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> OJ did it. Dont you know there was a witness who saw OJ in his car driving from the murder scene? The idiot of a prosecuter decided, for God knows what reason, not to use her as a witness! Have you forgotten OJ driving with a zillion police cars after him while he is talking with his lawyer on the phone? Is that the action of an innocent man? Any normal/innocent person would pull over and say,"whats the problem officer?". Or not? IMO, its not complicated ... <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, OJ was at the scene -- and he did leave -- and it looks like someone saw him leave -- that proovz he left. Why he ran away?? -- duznt make any sense -- even if he knew straight away who did it, there wasnt much sense in running -- but i guess that thats sometimes what a father duz. madMac.

Gayle in MD
10-20-2006, 05:40 AM
You can't be serious??? Are you joking? He did it, alright. The evidence was overwhelming. The only reason why he got off is because his black lawyer, Johnny whatshisface, played the race card to a dark skinned jury, and convinced them that Mark Furman planted the glove.

As for the Ramsey's, what that State's Attorney's office did to those people was a disgrace. Both cases were thwarted by incompetence on the part of law enforcement, and poor practices by forensic investigators.

Gayle in Md.

cushioncrawler
10-20-2006, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You can't be serious??? Are you joking? He did it, alright. The evidence was overwhelming. The only reason why he got off is because his black lawyer, Johnny whatshisface, played the race card to a dark skinned jury, and convinced them that Mark Furman planted the glove. As for the Ramsey's, what that State's Attorney's office did to those people was a disgrace. Both cases were thwarted by incompetence on the part of law enforcement, and poor practices by forensic investigators....<hr /></blockquote>
I havnt read the book(s), but the tv documentary (BBC??) was an eye-opener -- there is some good discussion on the web -- looks like oj took the fall -- he couldnt face being shown to be a bad-dad.

CSI would have done a better job -- but -- there will allways be doubt so long as the forensic people get paid by the same office that pays the police and have to report to the same boss.

Getting back to Lay -- in China, they would have executed him before the courtroom had emptyd -- but there is an appeals process if the relatives think that the cost of the bullet is a rip-off. madMac.

Gayle in MD
10-20-2006, 06:02 PM
I haven't read the book, but watched the trial, and IMO, he did it. I think the most condemning evidence was his past battering of Nicole, the photos from her safe deposit box of some of the results of his beatings, and the letter "If anything happens to me...etc." and predictions she shared, before he killed her, that he would eventually kill her, and get away with it.

There was also his blood at the scene, his shoe print, of a pair of shoes he denied owning, but were later shown on his feet, in a picture, not many size 13's around, in expensive designer shoes, bloody sock found in his bedroom, on his vehicle, and IIRC, wasn't there mixed samples of both Ron and Nicoles blood on one of the socks, not sure about that one...also, his house guest, heard a thump, on the wall of the guess house, where the bloody glove was found, along the back path that OJ would have used returning home, at the appropriate time of return from the murder scene, while talking on the phone, mentioning it to the person he was speaking with, and the limo driver, saw OJ throw away a black bag, which had been loaded in the limo, into the trash, at the airport.

He killed her alright.

Gayle in Md.

cushioncrawler
10-20-2006, 06:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I haven't read the book, but watched the trial, and IMO, he did it. I think the most condemning evidence was his past battering of Nicole, the photos from her safe deposit box of some of the results of his beatings, and the letter "If anything happens to me...etc." and predictions she shared, before he killed her, that he would eventually kill her, and get away with it. There was also his blood at the scene, his shoe print, of a pair of shoes he denied owning, but were later shown on his feet, in a picture, not many size 13's around, in expensive designer shoes, bloody sock found in his bedroom, on his vehicle, and IIRC, wasn't there mixed samples of both Ron and Nicoles blood on one of the socks, not sure about that one...also, his house guest, heard a thump, on the wall of the guess house, where the bloody glove was found, along the back path that OJ would have used returning home, at the appropriate time of return from the murder scene, while talking on the phone, mentioning it to the person he was speaking with, and the limo driver, saw OJ throw away a black bag, which had been loaded in the limo, into the trash, at the airport. He killed her alright...<hr /></blockquote>
What if he met the killer, knew the killer, had an arguement with the killer (at the scene), took the knife(s) from the killer (cutting himself), dumped the knifes, etc etc. OJ sure is guilty of something, but not murder. madMac.

Gayle in MD
10-20-2006, 07:40 PM
Well, I respect your opinion, but, we'll have to agree to disagree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I think his history of violence, the reports of his spying on her, of his bahavior towrad her after their separation, his controlling personality, and his threats that if he couldn't have Nicole, no one else would, along with all the forensic evidence, and his violent behavior toward her during their marriage, and much documentation of his irrational temper, all point to him as the killer. Stastics point to him, particularly since he was a wife beater, but there was also much blood and fiber evidence, also. Along with all that, most who knew the couple, believed that he killed her, even the guy that lived in the guest house, believes he killed her, and her family members, but, my personal reaction to his interviews, was that he was lying, and is a con man, and a sociopath.

Gayle in Md.

cushioncrawler
10-20-2006, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> ....along with all the forensic evidence.... <hr /></blockquote>
I was just looking at the "Junk Science" website -- it is an eye-opener re foren"sick" evidence. In any case, all of the evidence re oj is circumstantial (even if it is true, which is unlikely). I really must get a copy of Bill Dear's book -- this book was the centerpiece for the bbc OJ documentary that i saw. madMac.

wolfdancer
10-20-2006, 11:13 PM
If you think O.J. was not guilty, you didn't watch the trial, and the evidence unfold. We watched it every day....and I can honestly say...that the only 12 people that thought him not guilty, were impaneled on that jury. I think the not guilty verdict saved lives though....prevented an excuse for a riot.DNA was something new then, and I don't think the jury ever understood it. There not only was a mountain of evidence against him, everything he did afterwards, were the actions of a guilty man.
Rumor is he confessed in jail to Roosevelt Grier, who had became a minister by then.
For O.J to be innocent, there would have had to be several people from different agencies in on planting the evidence.
Circumstantial...all the blood evidence,the expensive shoes,etc...give me a break ...you won't ever find one of the trial lawyers, writing a book about his innocence...but don't forget to buy O.J.'s new book when it comes out, where he does confess...sort of.

cushioncrawler
10-20-2006, 11:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> If you think O.J. was not guilty, you didn't watch the trial, and the evidence unfold. We watched it every day....and I can honestly say...that the only 12 people that thought him not guilty, were impaneled on that jury. I think the not guilty verdict saved lives though....prevented an excuse for a riot.DNA was something new then, and I don't think the jury ever understood it. There not only was a mountain of evidence against him, everything he did afterwards, were the actions of a guilty man. Rumor is he confessed in jail to Roosevelt Grier, who had became a minister by then. For O.J to be innocent, there would have had to be several people from different agencies in on planting the evidence. Circumstantial...all the blood evidence,the expensive shoes,etc...give me a break ...you won't ever find one of the trial lawyers, writing a book about his innocence...but don't forget to buy O.J.'s new book when it comes out, where he does confess...sort of. <hr /></blockquote>

Wolfy -- here are just a few mentions of dna from the "truthinjustice" website -- it's scarey. madMac.

Army Launches Probe of DNA Tests The Army is investigating accusations that a civilian forensic examiner at the Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory at Fort Gillem, Ga., falsified DNA test results. The accusations, if true, would throw into doubt hundreds of criminal cases dating back at least 10 years.

Justice Under the Microscope DNA is only as reliable as the humans testing it. Virginia's once highly touted crime lab has starkly demonstrated this in an error-ridden death-row case that was propped up repeatedly by botched DNA studies from the state's supposed experts.

Los Angeles County officials scrambled to review at least 27 -- and possibly dozens -- of pending criminal cases to determine whether critical evidence was tainted or falsified during analysis by the nation's largest private DNA lab. Cellmark found the problems through its own audits, and said the testing protocols were not followed and that the analyst substituted results and changed computer records. All It Takes is One Bad Apple

Independent Crime Labs The risk of deceptive forensic practices is heightened by the strong institutional kinship between the technicians who analyze forensic evidence and the law enforcement agencies that investigate and prosecute criminals. Virtually all crime laboratories have direct affiliations with law enforcement agencies. Locke Bowman and Rob Warden make a strong case for independent crime labs in Illinois. Actually, we need independent crime labs throughout the country.

Convicted of rape and exonerated after 13 years in prison, Michael Green of Cleveland, Ohio sued the city for $10 million. He settled his case for $1.6 million -- and re-opening of more than 100 cases that included testimony from Joseph Serowik, the same forensics lab worker who falsely testified in Green's trial. Doing the Right Thing

"The premise is interesting that scientific evidence is more reliable than other evidence. . . . It would be nice if it were true," said Simon A. Cole, an assistant professor of criminology, law and society at the University of California at Irvine. "In the cases of wrongful conviction that we know about, scientific evidence is a very significant factor." Massachusetts Gov. Romney believes in the myth of infallible science, and he's willing to bet other people's lives on it.

Foolproof Forensics
Audits found the same problems that shut down crime labs in Houston and McAllen, Texas at crime labs in Austin, El Paso, Garland, Lubbock, Corpus Christi, and Waco. Stanley Schneider, chairman of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association's crime lab strike force, observed, "If crime labs were in the private sector, they'd all be shut down. Business would not tolerate this kind of functioning." More Flawed Labs


Darrell David Rice
A classic, this case has it all: botched crime scene processing, forensic fraud by the FBI Lab, reliance on perjured testimony by jailhouse snitches, manipulation of a credulous media to slander the defendant and poison the jury pool, plus inciting hatred and a desire for revenge against the defendant among the victims' families that is so intense they cannot let it go even after the feds are forced to admit the defendant didn't do the crime.

Defense attorney Fred Heblich said, "I think that people looking at this, if nothing else, that they should take heart in the operation of the system." Truth in Justice respectfully disagrees. People looking at this, if nothing else, should be very, very afraid of the operation of the system.

Christy Kim, the Houston Police Department Crime Lab DNA analyst whose faulty work sent Josiah Sutton to prison for rape, has been fired, 9 months after new tests exonerated Josiah and led to his release. It's About Time

ANOTHER UPDATE ON HOUSTON POLICE CRIME LAB
Small wonder the DNA analysts at the Houston Police Crime Lab did such a poor job. None of them were qualified by education and training to do their jobs. The founder of the DNA lab, James Bolding, retired rather than be fired. Among other things, he failed both algebra and geometry in college, though he later passed both, and he never took statistics.

Two grand juries investigating problems in Houston's police crime laboratory have widened their inquiry to include local prosecutors, asking about their potential culpability for winning convictions with Tainted Evidence .
Former FBI lab technician Jacquelyn Blake admitted she failed to follow required scientific procedures while analyzing 103 DNA samples during the last few years. But her errors indicate more serious problems. "The FBI peer-review system never caught the Blake errors," says Peter Neufeld of the Cardozo Innocence Project. "That tells us that the system is bogus and at least ineffective." Inside the DNA Labs

Phoenix police crime lab technicians blundered nine cases while analyzing DNA evidence to be used against murder, rape and aggravated assault suspects. Have you noticed how these mistakes never help defendants, only the prosecution? Miscalculated -- or Manipulated?
The FBI crime lab is dealing with new wrongdoing by employees that has opened the door for challenges of the lab's science in scores of cases involving DNA and bullet analysis. "Defense lawyers are being ambushed and jurors are being misled," retired FBI metallurgist William Tobin said. " There is no comprehensive or meaningful data whatsoever to support their analytical conclusions." More FBI Crime Lab Wrongdoing

The head of the DNA division of the Houston Police Department's crime lab has offered testimony in at least three cases that has later turned out to be wrong, according to court transcripts. "They intentionally mislead," said Dr. Elizabeth Johnson, the former head of the DNA lab at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office who now often works as a consultant for criminal defense teams. "And in all the cases I've been involved in, they always mislead in favor of a conviction." Houston Democratic state Rep. Harold Dutton says, "We have a name for that in Texas, and that is Perjury ."

When handled, analyzed and interpreted correctly, DNA evidence works to exclude the innocent and convict the guilty. But when the same evidence is handled and analyzed in shoddy lab conditions and by incompetent lab staff, the consequences can be dire. One consequence is that the innocent are convicted. But another consequence is that the real perpetrators go free and continue to commit crimes. Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld tell the Houston Police crime lab: End This DNA Debacle

Baltimore County, Maryland police are reviewing 480 cases worked by former police chemist Concepcion Bascanot in the wake of DNA tests that exonerated Bernard Webster in 2002. The DNA tests demonstrate Bascanot lied when she said the rapist and Webster both had type A blood. Forensic Fraud

In 1998, a rape victim identified Josiah Sutton as one of her assailants when she saw him on the street, and the Houston, Texas crime lab claimed DNA tests implicated him. The crime lab has been shut down because of the poor quality of its work, and new DNA tests have excluded Josiah. 4 1/2 Years in Prison -- for Nothing


"There were two different problems in the crime lab scientific incompetence and corruption," Law Professor David Dow of the University of Houston said. "That's a deadly combination. Once you have corruption, there is no reason to think that this is limited to DNA cases or cases where there is scientific evidence of any sort." The Houston Police Crime Lab

Have you ever wondered how an innocent person could be convicted by DNA evidence? After all, the accuracy of the technology is nearly perfect, and DNA test results have done more to exonerate the wrongfully convicted than all other types of evidence combined. But DNA is only as accurate as the lab analyst is skilled and honest. In Florida, DNA analyst John Fitzpatrick was caught switching DNA samples and changing data. Yet, not surprisingly, Florida authorities are resisting a full review of his work.

In 1986, Chicago police crime analyst Pamela Fish testified there were no semen stains on the clothing of rape/murder victim Lori Roscetti. Four men -- Omar Saunders, Marcellius Bradford, Larry Ollins and Calvin Ollins -- were convicted of that crime. But in 2001, 22 semen stains were found and DNA tests excluded all four men. Pamela Fish joins the Scientific Fraud Hall of Shame
The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers is forming a task force to address "systematic corruption" in forensic labs across the country. The Lawyers Want Labs Examined .

cushioncrawler
10-21-2006, 12:03 AM
This link mentions dna testing -- apparantly, human "error" is the main worry. madMac.

www.truthinjustice.org/inside-labs.htm (http://www.truthinjustice.org/inside-labs.htm)

cushioncrawler
10-21-2006, 12:14 AM
Another link re oj and dna -- and a snippet. madMac.

www.truthinjustice.org/foolproof-forensics.htm (http://www.truthinjustice.org/foolproof-forensics.htm)

"......With DNA analysis, the problem is different. The scientific underpinnings of DNA analysis are well-tested and conceded to be solid even by critics. But the certainty of a DNA match can be overshadowed by the larger question of how the DNA evidence was obtained and handled. In the O.J. Simpson murder case, for instance, defense attorneys cast doubt on DNA results because of sloppy lab work, ultimately suggesting investigators planted the evidence at the scene. And a DNA match to a crime scene, many defense attorneys point out, only proves a suspect was there not that he or she committed a crime....."