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nAz
10-23-2006, 08:40 PM
I posted this here becuase the "hey righties" post was meant to make people lol @ the tragic comic in the White House, I mean he is back peddling like I, I don't know what. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


Anywayz...

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> For your information, Billiards Digest has the right and the FREEDOM to choose what they allow to be posted on their website. They also have a right to shut it down if they feel that things are getting out of control.

I spoke with Mike this morning and he had no idea that all this has been going on with this section. I'm sure he'll make whatever decision he feels is in the best interest of his magazine, as he should.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran I totally agree they have every right to do as they wish I just hope the consider everyones input not just yours when they make their final call on the future of CCB.

Do you remember the old board when many posters like myself would get bored reading and posting pool related threads and would post things that where bizarres and didn't fit in the forum, many people complained about that and is probably why they started the NPR forum so some or all the people could post just about anything they wanted to within the posted rules.
It kinda reminds me of a real poolhall where people don't just shoot pool all night but socialize too. and when they come across someone or some topic they don't care for they just ignore them or start a new topic.

I quote from the main forum page "Post anything not related to pool in this discussion forum." now this is exactly what is going on here. of course things may seem to sometimes get out of hand here but not very often and when they do they seem to sort themselves out on their own. people here if they talk to each other with an open mind tend to realize that were all good people here.

When you spoke to Mike and he told you he had no idea what was happening around here. I really believe that, he had no reason to since obviously no one has complained about it before.

Anyway I hope he keeps the site up and maybe upgrades the forum's GUI like i suggested in the suggestion board.

BTW Im curious what image does he want here? more pool related threads? more tournament announcement? Does he wants it like AZB? im cool with that, sort of.

FatsRedux
10-23-2006, 11:56 PM
Although this is a private forum as Fran has pointed out, it is still a forum. Is it not?

Well, let's look at the definition.

What exactly is a forum?

According to Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: fo∑rum
Pronunciation: 'for-&amp;m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural forums also fo∑ra /-&amp;/
Etymology: Latin; akin to Latin foris outside, fores door -- more at DOOR

1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas

2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT

3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities

Why would you want to supress discussion?

While we are at it is this not the NPR board? Is someone forcing you to read things? Let me know cause Naz and 9 Ball Girl and I...and whoever else is from the NYC metro area will kick their azz!

C'mon Fran, nobody has anything against ya. Live and let live.

Fran Crimi
10-24-2006, 06:35 AM
This isn't about me, nAz. This is about how this section has been abused for way too long. For 25 years, both Mike Panozzo and I have dedicated ourselves to this sport. We also have made useful contributions and have built a mutual respect for each other. Yes, he will give my opinion weight. But in the end, he will act in whatever way he feels necessary, and if he decides to leave this section up, I'll accept his decision. I won't pound my fist and stomp my feet, crying, like some posters here when they don't get their way. And if he decides to take it down, then I'm sure there's always someplace else that people can go to use or abuse.

Fran

Gayle in MD
10-24-2006, 07:03 AM
Good post, Naz...I must say, I find these threats to be amazing.

I first want to say that I have always shown Fran, a great deal of respect, through the years. I went to her Workshop, and found her to be very nice, and accomodating. I have always read her posts on the pool side, and have learned some very valuable information from her, about pool.

It seems to me, that the same people who complained about people posting about non pool issues on the pool side, are the same people complaining, now.

Additionally, and I mean this, I am flabbergasted, that anyone would strike out against political discussions. Those of us who enter into them, don't hold grudges against one another, as far as I know. Also, I learn quite a lot, reading this forum, and enjoy the expossure to the ideas of others. This page, does not limit the number of posts shown. It isn't like, after a certain number, one cannot get their post on here, nor do they have to read posts, which they find offensive. There was a poster on here, several, in fact, posting pictures which I found to be pornographic. Once, when my grand daughter was here, she came in my office and saw one of them. While I found those posts to be offensive, and degrading to women, I realize, that everyone has different opinions about what is offensive, and as long as we value our freedom of speech, we should value every opportunity to exercise that freedom, and especially in the face of some of the present political efforts, to silence that right. I can't see how an exchange of views on politics, would threaten any American. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Gayle in Md.

hondo
10-24-2006, 08:36 AM
Oh for crying out loud, Fran! The only time you see
abuse is when somebody disagrees with you. Yet you
usually bite back harder than you're ever bitten.
If you're too thin skinned for the NPF,stay on the
regular forum. Why run everybody else off?
See, Fatty Rerun , we do agree every once in a while
and I'm not even a Librarian.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> This isn't about me, nAz. This is about how this section has been abused for way too long. For 25 years, both Mike Panozzo and I have dedicated ourselves to this sport. We also have made useful contributions and have built a mutual respect for each other. Yes, he will give my opinion weight. But in the end, he will act in whatever way he feels necessary, and if he decides to leave this section up, I'll accept his decision. I won't pound my fist and stomp my feet, crying, like some posters here when they don't get their way. And if he decides to take it down, then I'm sure there's always someplace else that people can go to use or abuse.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
10-24-2006, 09:05 AM
Fran, this NPR section is like a ladie's auxillary discussion when you compare it to some of the Craigslist forums. there are no profanity filters, and it's a no holds barred event.
I post because I am both angered and frustrated about the events in Washington. I also find articles of interest, that may interest others.
I didn't take it personal when this board was filled with posts condemning BC, Gore, Kerry. If you Google political scandals...you'll find the Dems have had as many, if not more, bad apples, then the other side.
I don't know what Mike would find offensive here, unless he takes opposition to his own politics, as something personal.
I don't think the board deserves an "X" rating...maybe just a "PG" one.
Gayle took a month off, and Snakebyte quit posting after DG complained....I didn't see a big surge of wholesome topics being discussed during that month.
We could limit political discussions to commentary on the minutes reading of the monthly PTA meetings, I suppose, while we sipped on a cup of tea.
The only times I've been angered by this board....is when Ed has made it into a personal thing....I think even Ed is more willing now to criticize the post, and not the poster.
Maybe we should add an "you must be 18, or older" warning to the NPR site.
Politics has nothing to do with the 25 years that you and Mike have spent promoting pool. Mike will still be one heck of a writer, even if we can't get him to vote for Hillary...

Fran Crimi
10-24-2006, 09:15 AM
Get over yourself, hondo. Your thinned 'skinned comments' are incredibly childish. You guys aren't the only ones who see this website. There is an entire industry out there who sees this website, not just the handful of people who decided to make this their home base for the President-hater's club. Keep the arguments coming. All the more reason for Mike to take down the NPR section.

Fran

Drop1
10-24-2006, 09:26 AM
I'm sure you make Mike Panzzo's day each time you become offened and make the call. A forum, is open,but the rights of the members,are limited ,and there are times you will be offended,frankly my dear I don't give a damn. If it closes,it only demonstrates "Fran must not be offended".

hondo
10-24-2006, 09:43 AM
Listen, lady, if you want to make it your mission to
get rid of this board, have at it. I enjoy it, but life
goes on. My wife calls me childish all the time so that
insult didn't work.
You are a minority of one in wanting to get rid of the
NPR but if it will make you feel important, then by all
means get rid of it.
CCB was just about dead til a few of us started posting on here again.
BTW, which do you think is better, a Lucasi or a Viking?
Also, I'm looking for a really good stick. My budget is
$35. What do you recommend?
Are Moochies really the best cues or is Schmelke better?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Get over yourself, hondo. Your thinned 'skinned comments' are incredibly childish. You guys aren't the only ones who see this website. There is an entire industry out there who sees this website, not just the handful of people who decided to make this their home base for the President-hater's club. Keep the arguments coming. All the more reason for Mike to take down the NPR section.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
10-24-2006, 11:03 AM
I believe it is always our duty to come down on the side of free speech. Yes, the constant Bush bashing bothers me but shutting down a board because some of us are uncomfortable is much worse. If something offends me so much, I'll skip over it or just not respond. Our country was built on free thinking and free expression. Wishing a President would come to harm is childish but not allowing those people to express that is not an answer.

It is the strategy of the left to constantly pound on anything Bush does. However, that is their right and any of us who say we are for a free America will defend that right, no exceptions or excuses. It may be bad to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater but I'd rather hear it than know we don't know how some feel, even if a few get crushed in the process.


DeeMan
this is still the greatest country and we need to prove that every day.....we have nothing to fear from truth, even if it's not always our truth

Drop1
10-24-2006, 11:08 AM
Very well put.

nAz
10-24-2006, 11:14 AM
Uh people I did not start this thread as a bash Fran post... I was just pointing out that this board is not as bad as some may think and I certainly don't see it as a turn off to people who visit it...
I mean they come here for Pool info and not for nothing they do get answers here with out much clutter.
Now if they look at the NPR part well like any other forum of just about any other subject they will find it littered with political post as well as nonsense post.

any ways please keep it Civil.

Naz~~ winner of the peoples choice award for excellence /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

nAz
10-24-2006, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> This isn't about me, nAz. This is about how this section has been abused for way too long. For 25 years, both Mike Panozzo and I have dedicated ourselves to this sport. We also have made useful contributions and have built a mutual respect for each other. Yes, he will give my opinion weight. But in the end, he will act in whatever way he feels necessary, and if he decides to leave this section up, I'll accept his decision. I won't pound my fist and stomp my feet, crying, like some posters here when they don't get their way. And if he decides to take it down, then I'm sure there's always someplace else that people can go to use or abuse.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

So what is the answer? I mean would you just shut it down or ban the people you think are ruining the entire BD forum? maybe add a dedicated moderator... and who would that be?

I'd vote for Ross.

hondo
10-24-2006, 11:29 AM
Well, if you're talking about me, I didn't bash her.
I just told her to do what she wanted to do.
BTW, do you think the new Cuetecs are nicer than the
originals?

nAz
10-24-2006, 11:30 AM
sorry my bad...

Naa I like the original, they make great break cues.

9 Ball Girl
10-24-2006, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>BTW, do you think the new Cuetecs are nicer than the
originals? <hr /></blockquote>Dammit Hondo! Take that to the Pool Related side! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

hondo
10-24-2006, 11:36 AM
Party pooper! Soon it will all be ONE. Right?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr>BTW, do you think the new Cuetecs are nicer than the
originals? <hr /></blockquote>Dammit Hondo! Take that to the Pool Related side! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

9 Ball Girl
10-24-2006, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Party pooper! Soon it will all be ONE. Right?<hr /></blockquote>Actually, up until about 3-4 years ago (I think), it was one.

hondo
10-24-2006, 11:41 AM
I broke with mine &amp; the ferrule cracked. Unreplacable.
You wouldn't know where I could find a nice Joel
Hercek for under $60, would you? I'd throw in my
broken, original Cuetec.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> sorry my bad...

Naa I like the original, they make great break cues. <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
10-24-2006, 12:01 PM
Hey Deemnan,

Free speech is a great thing in a free speech environment. However, there are laws that protect property owners. I'm sure the libertarians here can relate to that. You have a right to throw someone off of your property for no other reason than the fact that you own it. Oh, they may go off kicking and screaming and throwing temper tantrums about free speech, but they will have to leave nonetheless because that's how the law protects property owners.

Billiards Digest has advertisers who pay to be associated with this magazine. Mike Panozzo will have to decide whether he feels it's okay to be represented as the website home base for President hatred because that's what you see when you open up the NPR section. As someone who understands business I brought it to his attention. That's all. It's very simple. The rest is up to him.

Fran

Deeman3
10-24-2006, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hey Deemnan,

Free speech is a great thing in a free speech environment. However, there are laws that protect property owners. I'm sure the libertarians here can relate to that. You have a right to throw someone off of your property for no other reason than the fact that you own it. Oh, they may go off kicking and screaming and throwing temper tantrums about free speech, but they will have to leave nonetheless because that's how the law protects property owners.

Billiards Digest has advertisers who pay to be associated with this magazine. Mike Panozzo will have to decide whether he feels it's okay to be represented as the website home base for President hatred because that's what you see when you open up the NPR section. As someone who understands business I brought it to his attention. That's all. It's very simple. The rest is up to him.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Fran,

I agree that Mike can do anythig he wants with a private forum. I just don't think we need censorship on what most of us consider a free speech area for general interest topics. If someone is defamed, and that person is a private individual, I have a problem with it. However, GWB as much as I have supported him, is a public figure and, therefore, subject to judgement, however fair or unfair that may be. If Mike says, we just need to discuss polite and friendly topics, most of us would find another outlet for our expressions. I do not beleive the advertisers, members or general public misconstrues opinion here as support for or against a public policy or critism of anyone as a BD sponsored opinion. I applaud BD for not getting more involved. We are all adults here, with a couple of notible exceptions on both sides (Hey, I have no one in mind here!) and are able to have these discussions without taking them too much to heart.

What I still say is that America can handle the debate just fine. If BD can't they should outlaw open discussions. Fran, I respect you very much but I have to disagree with anyone or anything that stifles open debate, left or right. </font color>

DeeMan

Fasteddy7
10-24-2006, 12:49 PM
there isnt [censored] in the Pool related side. I come here just to listen to Gail and Pooltchr hammer it out. Its great and I have even learned a few things, like Moochies are the greatest, man. Rock on CCB.

Fran Crimi
10-24-2006, 05:37 PM
I respect you too, Deeman, but I couldn't disagree with you more. If you had a business, then you'd better care about what you project because what you accept is what you project. I've seen pool rooms go under because owners didn't want to insult their customers who acted up, but didn't really do anything violent. So they were allowed to continue to hang around, acting like idiots and gradually, the premises became known as low-life city. No one with money would go there anymore. All that because the owner was acting liberal with his customers.

It's the same thing with forums. I've seen plenty of forums on the net that have many restrictions. They don't fool around and they'd toss the hatred and threats right out.

Fran

Qtec
10-25-2006, 12:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
It is the strategy of the left to constantly pound on anything Bush does <hr /></blockquote>

Its every citizen's duty to hold their Govt accountable for their actions, its not a Dem 'strategy'.

[ QUOTE ]
It may be bad to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater but I'd rather hear it than know we don't know how some feel, even if a few get crushed in the process.
<hr /></blockquote>

Talking about yelling 'fire'............


Ariana H puts it nicely.
,
[ QUOTE ]
Letís face it: "The sky is falling" or "the nukes are coming" is a frighteningly effective sales pitch.

Donít get me wrong: North Korea testing a nuke is real bad news. But I couldn't help but wonder what political use Karl Rove and the president would put this real bad news to. After all, banging the fear gong and trying to scare the hell out of us has worked like a charm for President Bush and the GOP.

Ever since 9/11, "be afraid" has been their No. 1 talking point. They sold us on invading Iraq with warnings from Condoleezza Rice that the "smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud" and dire predictions from Bush and Cheney about all the ways Saddam could rain death and destruction on us. And it's remarkable how the terror rhetoric always seems to hit Red just before elections.

Whether it's the specter of North Korean nukes or Iraqi insurgents making their way to Main Street USA, fear is a powerful, universal emotion ó always there to be exploited. So as Election Day draws near, be on the lookout for those attempting to scare us into voting our fears.

To quote FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." And those who use it for their own political purposes.

<hr /></blockquote>

If I was to say 'lets nuke Iran' ie kill a 100,000 people, that would be OK, but when one guy makes a joke- Lord deliver thine wrath on GW- everyone's panties are in a twist!? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Q

Deeman3
10-25-2006, 05:55 AM
Q,

While I'm not the one manking a "stick" here, I do thnk some of us take the idea of hoping for assasination or death to our president no matter the party as a little beyond the pale. We have had severla presidents killed and just the idea of it is replusive to most Americans. Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government.

In your other point, I don't think you can equate "holding their government accountable" to the attitude we see toward Bush. Making a government official accountable is much mre than just slinging every accusation you can muster at a person. Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have.

Again I say, GWB could pull a child from a burning building and many on here would vilify him for it. You know this is true, if you will admit it.

BY the way, i am insulted by your proposal that we nuke Iran. However, on second thought, I'll consider it next time I parlay with George.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 06:20 AM
Really!!! I can't believe we're even having this discussion! How do you abuse a web site, by posting your opinion in a forum, devoted to Non Pool Related subjects? Billiards Digest, has insulated itself from an possibility of perceived attachment to opinions that people write on here, in the same manner as other web sites, TV stations, movies, advertisments, this is being blown way way out of proportion, IMO.

Why do people insist on attaching the accusation of "Hate" to someone's critical political opinions? Isn't disgust over something, different than hate? I may, for example, feel repulsion, over this administration's dishonesty, stupid mistakes, and corruption, but frankly, those emotional and intellectual reactions do not have to include feelings of hatred. There are some posters who consistantly make an accusation of hatred, in response to anything anyone writes, that does not support Bush. To me, that's just plain hypocracy, and if one goes into the archives, and checks out things those same people have posted in the past, well....there is no lack of hypocracy in their charge. And, it's an overblown charge, which is the direct result of their own inability to abide differing opinions.

All the outrage, (and accusations of hatred) is only a symptom of so called adults, who can't abide exposure to opinions that do not support their own. How much more childish can you get, than that?

Incredible!

Gayle in Md.

hondo
10-25-2006, 06:22 AM
Right on. I've changed my mind. Close the damn thing down.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I respect you too, Deeman, but I couldn't disagree with you more. If you had a business, then you'd better care about what you project because what you accept is what you project. I've seen pool rooms go under because owners didn't want to insult their customers who acted up, but didn't really do anything violent. So they were allowed to continue to hang around, acting like idiots and gradually, the premises became known as low-life city. No one with money would go there anymore. All that because the owner was acting liberal with his customers.

It's the same thing with forums. I've seen plenty of forums on the net that have many restrictions. They don't fool around and they'd toss the hatred and threats right out.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 06:39 AM
Oh for heavens sake, Deeman. What you are saying is ridiculous, IMO. I know of no one on this board, who has ever made a serious suggestion, or voiced any wish for anyone to be killed or assinated. Get off your high horse, and stop trying to use outlandish Rovian tactics to smear people who don't agree with your blank check approval of all things Bush!

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>


I think you may have this a bit backwards. My "attacks" as you chose to put it, are aimed at a man, and a party, who are destroying the institution of our form of Government.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

Slinging wild accusations? How bout your side? Isn't that your forte' after all? Anyone who is against Bush's policies, is for the terrorists? War Heros, are traitors? Liberals, are really communists? The Clinton's were murderrers? Anyone who critisizes Bush, hates him, and wants to see an assination? Pahleeeeze!!! Talk about using sheer BS to try to smear people with opinions that don't match yours!!!! I don't think you have a clue about what patriotism really is, in the first place. One thing it surely isn't, is blind devotion to incompetent, power grabbing leaders, who break the laws of our land, and try to hide the truth from the citizens of the country they lead!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
10-25-2006, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Ih for heavens sake, Deeman. What you are saying is ridiculous, IMO. I know of no one on this board, who has ever made a serious suggestion, or voiced any wish for anyone to be killed or assinated. <font color="blue"> We have had several "Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him!" comments as well as the recent ones you just ignore. </font color> Get off your high horse, and stop trying to use outlandish Rovian tactics to smear people who don't agree with your blank check approval of all things Bush! <font color="blue">I do not have a blank check approval of GWB. That is one more of your incites that is totally wrong and used to make a point that is not true. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>


I think you may have this a bit backwards. My "attacks" as you chose to put it, are aimed at a man, and a party, who are destroying the institution of our form of Government. <font color="blue"> That is your opinion. He's just a man when you want to attack him. I feel you have that right but not to call for his assination. I am not accusing you personally of this but most on here that are not skewed too far left will remember this. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> You are missing my point here. It's the incessent charging of GWB with all the world's ils that kills your credibility. </font color>

Slinging wild accusations? How bout your side? Isn't that your forte' after all? Anyone who is against Bush's policies, is for the terrorists? <font color="blue"> Not at all. The difference is that everything GWB does is bad, in your view. </font color> War Heros, are traitors? Liberals, are really communists? The Clinton's were murderrers? Anyone who critisizes Bush, hates him, and wants to see an assination? <font color="blue">Are you saying what I havesaid about the comments by Dick and others are not true? </font color> Pahleeeeze!!! Talk about using sheer BS to try to smear people with opinions that don't match yours!!!! I don't think you have a clue about what patriotism really is, in the first place. <font color="blue"> Perhaps, the only war I fought in was not very effective but may have just been a little more patriotic than your military service. I don't know. I did not serve with you. </font color> One thing it surely isn't, is blind devotion to incompetent, power grabbing leaders, who break the laws of our land, and try to hide the truth from the citizens of the country they lead! <font color="blue"> Typical B/S..... </font color>

Gayle in Md.





<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 09:29 AM
Quote Gayle in MD:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh for heavens sake, Deeman. What you are saying is ridiculous, IMO. I know of no one on this board, who has ever made a serious suggestion, or voiced any wish for anyone to be killed or assinated. We have had several "Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when you need him!" comments as well as the recent ones you just ignore. I've heard commedians say much worse than that. The Oswald post, was from Wendy, about tee shirts, that were supposed to be a joke! You think that's any wrose than your reference to terrorists chopping off my head? DUH! You really think Wendy wants to see Bush assasinated? Give me a break! Get real, as I said, and get off your republican high horse. I think it is you who is the wannabe elitist! Things that those of us who are agsinst Bush post here, are no worse than what you people from the right post, period! Drop's post was not meant to be literal. Anyone who has been on here for years, and read their posts, knows that, unless they're just trying to stir up a lot of BS, to try to pump up their false accusations. Get off your high horse, and stop trying to use outlandish Rovian tactics to smear people who don't agree with your blank check approval of all things Bush! I do not have a blank check approval of GWB. That is one more of your incites that is totally wrong and used to make a point that is not true.

Not true huh? Well, if it isn't true, then why do you accuse those who disagree with him as being for the terrorists, and full of hate. C'mon, you can barely write a post without some slur toward liberals. Does that mean you hate everybody who is a liberal? You have a double standard, one for Deeman, and another for the rest of the world. When someone makes a valid point about Bush's failures, or his lies, accompanied with proof, videos that show him lying through his teeth, you're slurs against the liberals are quite clear, but never accompanied with any acknowledgment of the facts being presented.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

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I think you may have this a bit backwards. My "attacks" as you chose to put it, are aimed at a man, and a party, who are destroying the institution of our form of Government. That is your opinion. He's just a man when you want to attack him. I feel you have that right but not to call for his assination. I am not accusing you personally of this but most on here that are not skewed too far left will remember this.

Will remember what? Who called for Bush's assination? NOBODY! Becuase YOU are too far skewed right, you have blown a couple of joke posts, where the word asassination was never used, into a mountain. If that isn't typical Republican/Rovian BS skewing of the reality, than I don't kow what is...Like I said, get real!

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

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Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

Oh, another of Deeman's double standard world of rules? The Right, doesn't put out wild political charges? Pahleeeze! Again, get real, cut the bull.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are missing my point here. It's the incessent charging of GWB with all the world's ils that kills your credibility.

HA HA HA....I only hold him accountable for what HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING! You continuous tactic is to portray me as someone who blames him for everything, just another of your usual tactics, muddy up the waters enough so that the original point is lost in translation. You are truly a piece of work! If the man didn't continue to F-up every thing he does, maybe there would be some redeeming decisions of his that we could focuss on, but so far, he hasn't given us anything for which we can brag on him. Now, over 60% of the people in this country, and even higher numbers in other parts of the country, are of the opinion that Bush has made the world less safe, is a liar, refuses to take responsibility for the messes he has made, and has not been a successful President. Guess from your perspective, they don't have any credibility? AH HA HA HA...Deeman, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but George Bush, and the Bush supporters are the ones lacking in credibility.
Slinging wild accusations? How bout your side? Isn't that your forte' after all? Anyone who is against Bush's policies, is for the terrorists? Not at all. The difference is that everything GWB does is bad, in your view. War Heros, are traitors? Liberals, are really communists? The Clinton's were murderrers? Anyone who critisizes Bush, hates him, and wants to see an assination? Are you saying what I have said about the comments by Dick and others are not true? Pahleeeeze!!! Talk about using sheer BS to try to smear people with opinions that don't match yours!!!! I don't think you have a clue about what patriotism really is, in the first place. Perhaps, the only war I fought in was not very effective but may have just been a little more patriotic than your military service. I don't know. NO, you don't know, and no I haven't served in a war, interesting tactic on your part, though. However, I can truthfully say, and prove, that I have served my country, and our armed services, far long than you have. There goes that false accusation of yours. I did not serve with you. One thing it surely isn't, is blind devotion to incompetent, power grabbing leaders, who break the laws of our land, and try to hide the truth from the citizens of the country they lead! Typical B/S.....

Typical BS? Not true,? Bush hasn't lied? Hasn't broken any laws? Isn't one of the most power grabbing President's in our history? Hasn't shown incompetence? AH HA H AHA...DREAM ON DEEMAN!

Again, GET REAL!



Gayle in Md.

hondo
10-25-2006, 09:49 AM
TAPTAPTAP! Give em hell, Gail.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Ih for heavens sake, Deeman. What you are saying is ridiculous, IMO. I know of no one on this board, who has ever made a serious suggestion, or voiced any wish for anyone to be killed or assinated. Get off your high horse, and stop trying to use outlandish Rovian tactics to smear people who don't agree with your blank check approval of all things Bush!

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>


I think you may have this a bit backwards. My "attacks" as you chose to put it, are aimed at a man, and a party, who are destroying the institution of our form of Government.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>

Slinging wild accusations? How bout your side? Isn't that your forte' after all? Anyone who is against Bush's policies, is for the terrorists? War Heros, are traitors? Liberals, are really communists? The Clinton's were murderrers? Anyone who critisizes Bush, hates him, and wants to see an assination? Pahleeeeze!!! Talk about using sheer BS to try to smear people with opinions that don't match yours!!!! I don't think you have a clue about what patriotism really is, in the first place. One thing it surely isn't, is blind devotion to incompetent, power grabbing leaders, who break the laws of our land, and try to hide the truth from the citizens of the country they lead!

Gayle in Md.





<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 10:12 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Gayle jes LUUUUUUUUUUUUUVS Deeman! He makes my day! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman3
10-25-2006, 11:26 AM
Gayle,

I love you too. Dids I read in that other post that you view of sex was that you didn't like to shop (or Stop). Not completely sure of the meaning unless it was a typo.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now, if I have called for the assignation of Bill Clinton or any other president, even in jest, I don't recall it but think I would. I was not referring to Wendy's post as I was referring to a post by Dick and one by Drop1.

If we are indeed totally free to say anything with no regard for the impact, I would think we will quickly degenerate to name calling and threats. However, maybe I am wrong! Myabe there is no limit on anything that we can say. You well know that any point of view that I or you might believe, no matter how inflamatory or false can be "proven" by a simple search of our most extream websites on both sides of the political spectrum. I can "prove" the death of J.F.K. by any number of consiracy theories with the accompanying documentation. I can call for the assisanation of Nancy Pelosi or "prove" she has this or that sexual perversion if I do a search of right wing hit sites. I could do the same with Hillary. Are accusations about her true? Did she has anything to do with Vince Foster's death? I don't think so. Therefore, I don't believe it would do a great deal of good or be fair to tag my signature line with something that is based on hearsay or rumor. NOw, if I did that, some on here (especally those who may not be that far to the left) would, if not totally believe it, certainly add that to their everyday characterization fo Mrs. Clinton. A difference might be a cute comment made by someone in jest as you are saying in the case of killing a president. I do feel, and again, maybe I have to adjust my sensitivity meter, that saying I want to see the president die even if putting a little smiley face after it does cross a line.

So, do I feel my political opponents are evil and wicked? No, I beleive they are politically motivated and misguided. That does not mean that I don't beleive GWB is misguided as well in many decisions. The difference in my view and your's may be in that I do not question every single act that Al Gore has or would make and I don't consider him or Hillary or Nancy evil. They have and will do some good things. Most of their agenda is certainly different from mine. However, I applauded Bill Clinton for many things and think he did a pretty good job as president but let a few character flaws bring down a better than average history on him. He spoiled his own legacy. However, I would have morned him very much if he had been taken from us as our standing president. He deserves credit for many good thngs and the condemnation for his philandering that cost him a legacy of a great leader. Bush is not evil. He may be misguided, in your opinion and in some ways in mine. But to say everything about him, his family and staff are bad is showing base unfairness. It is not my place to judge your intensions but I can point them out. You and the others can disagree. If your leaders, the majority of Democrats, put forth the same hate, yes, hate, that we hear from you, the party would never recover. Both sides are much more negative then I have ever witnessed before. I don't think it serves either party for the long term as American voters remember. You are right, GWB will be gone in 2008 and if you have the poll numbers then, that you have now, you may finally win a victory. The record, so far, while I've been onthis board is not so good and each time you say, "A change is coming." Maybe the coming mid-terms are your first chance at a win in all these years. If so, maybe we will all win a little as I believe no party should have as much control as the Republicans have now and only a grinding halt will save us money now.

I do promise, whomever is elected, I will still disagree with their policy at times but will not add tens unpon tens of paragraphs restating the same old arguments for six years.

I don't believe you are against America just because you hate GWB. I don't think you like the terrorists. I do think you embolden their resolve but that is a price of being an open country and that's just a fact not an indictment. I also believe your vision of what America should be is much different than mine. I see a socialist movement in this country that I can't embrace simply because i see the results of that move left over the last 40 years, again, not Gayle's fault.

So, I will keep my opinion of what America should be and you will keep yours. If you are afraid of what I have to say, perhaps i should temper it with some P/C words. In any case, I have not called for your censure on this board nor a change in it's basic rules. If your accusation of my purpose is that, as you stated, you have not been reading my posts.

I still love you Gayle, especially if you don't like to stop when having sex....


Deeman

pooltchr
10-25-2006, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Really!!! Why do people insist on attaching the accusation of "Hate" to someone's critical political opinions? Isn't disgust over something, different than hate?
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle,
As my mother used to tell me, "It's not always what you say, but the way you say it".
I bet your mother taught you the same thing.
Maybe if you tone down the rhetoric a bit, your points might be taken a little more seriously.
I don't recall you ever saying you hated anyone...but the tone of some of your posts can certainly give that impression.
I love ya, too!
Steve

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 12:59 PM
Gayle,

I love you too. Dids I read in that other post that you view of sex was that you didn't like to shop (or Stop). Not completely sure of the meaning unless it was a typo.... Both words fit! LOL. but I wrote shop...just a little play on words, you know.

Now, if I have called for the assignation of Bill Clinton or any other president, even in jest, I don't recall it but think I would. I was not referring to Wendy's post as I was referring to a post by Dick and one by Drop1. I have aparently missed Dick's post, or forgotten what he wrote, but I know Dick well, he is a very dear friend to me, and I know he would never seriously suggest that he wanted to see any president assassinated, nor would Drop. My opinion, is that you guys jump on things, and blow them out of proportion.

If we are indeed totally free to say anything with no regard for the impact, I would think we will quickly degenerate to name calling and threats. However, maybe I am wrong! Myabe there is no limit on anything that we can say. You well know that any point of view that I or you might believe, no matter how inflamatory or false can be "proven" by a simple search of our most extream websites on both sides of the political spectrum. I can "prove" the death of J.F.K. by any number of consiracy theories with the accompanying documentation. I can call for the assisanation of Nancy Pelosi or "prove" she has this or that sexual perversion if I do a search of right wing hit sites. I could do the same with Hillary. Are accusations about her true? Did she has anything to do with Vince Foster's death? I don't think so. Therefore, I don't believe it would do a great deal of good or be fair to tag my signature line with something that is based on hearsay or rumor. NOw, if I did that, some on here (especally those who may not be that far to the left) would, if not totally believe it, certainly add that to their everyday characterization fo Mrs. Clinton. A difference might be a cute comment made by someone in jest as you are saying in the case of killing a president. I do feel, and again, maybe I have to adjust my sensitivity meter, that saying I want to see the president die even if putting a little smiley face after it does cross a line.

Again, I don't think anyone said that. And yes, I do think your sensitivity metor could stand some adjustment, particularly, since you continue to harp and harp on something that is totally untrue, and I KNOW for a fact, that it is totally untrue, because, I do not believe in hate. Now, you can continue to accuse me of hatred, and I, obviously cannot stop you, as I have asked you several times not to do so, but, hey, if you must, then have at it. It's a free country. I hate George Bush's policies, and the Republican rubber stamp Congress, and think the present circumstances, with them in power, are very very divisive, and bad for our country. Those opinions do not require hatred, and frankly, when you continue to color me, as an individual, being capable of hatred, It deeply offends me, but as I said, there is nothing I can do about it.

So, do I feel my political opponents are evil and wicked? No, I beleive they are politically motivated and misguided. That does not mean that I don't beleive GWB is misguided as well in many decisions. The difference in my view and your's may be in that I do not question every single act that Al Gore has or would make and I don't consider him or Hillary or Nancy evil. Well, I agree, not that I consider every single thing that Bush does as evil, but, that I see and believe that his decisions have been failures, and they have been failures which have cost the lives of many many people. I am against every single one of his policies, so hey, that's where I stand, totally against Bush's policies. It would be a bit deceitful of me, if I pretended to approve policies, which I am totally against. I do, however, fully believe that he is an evil man. For me, atleast, his approval of torture, and the way he has denied it, knowing full well, that it is happening, and happening because of HIS decisions, is proof of his evilness and dishonesty, and his unrelenting quest for power, and the unprecedented tactics he has used to get around our laws, with signing statements, over 750 of them in fact, proof of his attack on the principles of how our Government is supposed to work, and dd to that the common nasty methods that he and Karl Rove have used throughout his political life, are evidence of his evilness. Lying is evil, in and of itself. I also think that Rush Limbaugh is an evil man, that doesn't mean I hate him. They have and will do some good things. Most of their agenda is certainly different from mine. However, I applauded Bill Clinton for many things and think he did a pretty good job as president but let a few character flaws bring down a better than average history on him. He spoiled his own legacy. However, I would have morned him very much if he had been taken from us as our standing president. He deserves credit for many good thngs and the condemnation for his philandering that cost him a legacy of a great leader. Bush is not evil. He may be misguided, in your opinion and in some ways in mine. But to say everything about him, his family and staff are bad is showing base unfairness. It is not my place to judge your intensions but I can point them out. You and the others can disagree. If your leaders, the majority of Democrats, put forth the same hate, yes, hate, that we hear from you, the party would never recover. Once again, I think that for you to continue to accuse me of hatred, is insulting, to say the least. For one thing, I am probably older than you, and I haven't lived 61 years without understanding that hatred hurts the one who carries it in their heart, not the object of the hatred. I love myself, and my life, far too much to ruin it with hatred. I believe, you continue to acccuse me of hatred, in order to irritate me, and, may I say, you succeed, each and every time that you do so. But, again, there is nothing that I can do, other than ask that you discontinue doing so, which I have already requested, repeated, to no avail. Also, I think, most intelligent people would agree, that one cannot possibly know or feel another person's emotions, unless the ARE that person. Therefore, your premise, is false. You are not me. Only I can know is I feel hate, and I assure you, although I am repulsed by Bush, and his policies, and have absolutely no respect for the man, my usual automatic emotional feelings towards liars, are feelings of indifference, not hatred. Once I realize a person is a liar, they don't exist for me on a human level, they are just phoney's, whose outward facade, is nothing more than that, a facade. I absolutely do HATE, his policies. Both sides are much more negative then I have ever witnessed before. I don't think it serves either party for the long term as American voters remember. You are right, GWB will be gone in 2008 and if you have the poll numbers then, that you have now, you may finally win a victory. that's a silly statement, I certainly don't attack my experience of my life, to who wins an election. I am interested in politics, and government, and do a lot of reading about current events, however, in spite of what you try to promote about my character, you should realize, that my life is chock full of personal interests, far more important to me than who wins an election, generally speaking, I am, however, much more concerned for out country, presently, than ever before. That is because I feel that it is under attack, by the religious/political right wing extremists, in this country, and by the neocon movement of the Republican party. I only wish others were more skeptical, and more studious in their efforts to sift through what we are told, and find accurate, factual information, from respected journalists, former civil servants, and Statesmen, with which to temper and enhance their understanding of issues, and views, rather than just accepting everything at face value. I also think, that if one did so, one could not possibly propose that George Bush is an honest man. The record, so far, while I've been onthis board is not so good and each time you say, "A change is coming." Hold it right there. If you are trying to suggest that my predictions have been off, then we will surely have to agree, to disagree. I'll just leave it at that. I have only once predicted that finally, I thought the great silent majority was ready to speak out. I think they did. I think the last election, and the one before it, were both fixed, by the Republican party. As I have said before, we live now in times where we can only vote, and hope, that the votes will be allowed, that voters will not e blocked from the booths, as they were in Florida, and Ohio, that all votes will be counted. I, for one, am very suspicious, and fearful over the coming election, and for good reason, I might add. There is a great deal of documentation which suggests that that has not been the case in our last two elections. Maybe the coming mid-terms are your first chance at a win in all these years. If so, maybe we will all win a little as I believe no party should have as much control as the Republicans have now and only a grinding halt will save us money now. Now that, I can fully agree with.

I do promise, whomever is elected, I will still disagree with their policy at times but will not add tens unpon tens of paragraphs restating the same old arguments for six years. I won't bore you with the definition of insanity! No one forces you to read my posts. I cannot help it if you are addicted to them, LOL.

I don't believe you are against America just because you hate GWB. I do not hate George Bush, I hate his policies, and his lies. I don't think you like the terrorists. I do think you embolden their resolve You are quite wrong. The National Security Estimate, says, that Bush's policies, have emboldened their resolve. Do you consider the National Security Estimate, to be just leftist propaganda? since it is stated, quite clearly that his policies have emboldened the terrorists, and increased their numbers, then it would reasonably follow, that those who support his policies, are the ones who emboldened the terrorists. That surely isn't me. Your premise, is not accurate. but that is a price of being an open country and that's just a fact not an indictment. I also believe your vision of what America should be is much different than mine. I see a socialist movement in this country that I can't embrace simply because i see the results of that move left over the last 40 years, again, not Gayle's fault. Adn I see the destruction of the Separation of church and State, the robbing of the poor and middle class, for the benefit of the rich, and the dismantling of the Constitution, the Bill Of Rights, and right to privacy, and the roots of fascism taking hold. And, I believe that the moral Christian right, and the neocon philosophy, is built on forcing all of us to adhere to the wishes, and religious beliefs and doctrines, of a bunch of NUTS, from the extreme religious right. It is they who endeavor to dictate to all of us, who are the most pressing danger, and they aren't all from Abab countries. Most who endeavor to dictate to us about personal decisions, what we may do, what we may write, who we may marry, what we may read, and see on the news, are from the right, Repbulican Party, not from liberals I believe there is evidence of that very phenomenon right here and now on the CCB.

So, I will keep my opinion of what America should be and you will keep yours. If you are afraid of what I have to say, perhaps i should temper it with some P/C words. Ha ha ha, Me afraid of you? Really, Deeman, of all the posters here, I'm the last one who could be accused of being afraid of mere words on a forum, and partucularly, your words. I may believe that you are stuck in the past, and unable to embrace the positive strides we have made in human rights, but that often happens to people when they get old, they don't want any social changes to occur, even if they are about private, personal freedoms, which are no one else's business, such as a president's personal sex life, or a woman's right to an unhampered abortion, or the right for two homosexual lovers to profess their love in the light of day, and have all the rights that heterosexual people have, to marry, have children, havethe right to share ownership, and responsibility for their lives. I am never for dictatorship. Nor am I ever for judging others, for their lifestyles, or their personal decisions. My only gripe is with people who kill, steal, and commit acts of violence, or neglect their children or their pets. I am strictly a live and let live person. Unlike the religious right, and unlike the neocons. I am also, very proud, that that is who I am. In any case, I have not called for your censure on this board nor a change in it's basic rules. If your accusation of my purpose is that, as you stated, you have not been reading my posts. Kudos, Deeman, I do acknowledge your wise point of view regarding free speech, and an open forum, here at CCB!

I still love you Gayle, especially if you don't like to stop when having sex....
WOW, Deeman, you must really, really love me a lot, then!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Here;'s what I love...I love people who are secure enough, that they can enjoy exchanging opinions, and celebrate their mutual right to do so, regardless of how passionate, or verbose they may be.

Deeman

Deeman3
10-25-2006, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
Here;'s what I love...I love people who are secure enough, that they can enjoy exchanging opinions, and celebrate their mutual right to do so, regardless of how passionate, or verbose they may be.

<font color="blue"> Can't argue with this.... </font color>

DeeMan



<hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
10-25-2006, 02:01 PM
speaking of verbose....I needed to change my eyeglass prescription half way through that last one.

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 02:27 PM
Could it be, is there any possibility at all, that the emotions you experience, that make you think about me the way you do, when you read criticism of Bush, factor into your experience of what I write? I will take full responsibility for what I write, however, I am not responsible for your interpretation of what I write.

Hey, I'm disgusted with Bush. That's what I write about. Hardly a week goes by, that I don't learn of something he has done, or said, that I think is totally outrageous, dishonest, or some self serving denial on his part of his own mistakes. Today, he stood up there and did the same damn thing I've been watching him do for years. He minimized his own responsibility for a huge mess, that HE created, and never once acknowledged his responsibility for it. Sorry. That makes me mad. I hear that talk, then I think of what I am seeing, in the hospital, on the news, from people who have been overthere. Here's an example. Today, in his press conference, he listed some things that came under the basic heading of "Things we didn't expect" instead of "Mistakes we made" Now, among those things, he listed the collapse of the Iraqi army. HE is the one who did that! Other things he listed, were a direct result of his own decisions, and his own policy. I don't hate the man, I hate the things he says and does. He NEVER admits that he is responsible for the mess! The terrorists, gathering in Iraq, he simply refers to as radicals coming over the borders, but had they taken enough troops in there in the beginning, enough to keep the place from collapsing into kaos, and protected the borders, there wouldn't be terrorists gathering in Iraq. This is what drives me nuts about this man. He behaves as though he is above reproach, never made a mistake, is right about everything, and did the right thing, going into Iraq. STILL! That simply is not reality. Not just my opinion, now, but the opinion of many many right wing journalists, congressmen and women, and Senators. Sorry, he was wrong, he was arrogant, and he was incompetent, and many others have died because he refused to listen, and still thinks he is right, and he's fine with people dying until he can prove he was right, IOW, indefinately.

Love you too...
Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
10-25-2006, 02:50 PM
I have a new idea that requires some cooperation. you took a month off...but the rest of us port siders continued to spew bile about the affairs in Washington...so not much was resolved.
So my idea is that everybody here that is leftist take the same month off, from posting anything political.
I'd rather not see the whole board restricted just over our cut &amp; paste jobs.And if that solves the problems here...we could then just find another site to post on.
you pick the starting date if that is agreeable...

pooltchr
10-25-2006, 04:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> He NEVER admits that he is responsible for the mess! Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I believe I heard him say exactly that today when he was asked about Rumsfeld...He said he thinks Rummy is doing what is being asked of him, and that he as President has the ultimate responsibility.

Steve

Drop1
10-25-2006, 04:29 PM
Wolf,I repeat,this is a healthy forum. There is no need for change. Ideas,are not always packaged as some would like,sometimes a person goes into a rant,other times our views can be changed,or jokes can be told. I have looked at other forums,and have not found one with the depth of debate equal to this forum. "A fool talks because he has to,a wise person talks because they have something to say" a good forum has both.

Qtec
10-25-2006, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Q,

While I'm not the one manking a "stick" here, I do thnk some of us take the idea of hoping for assasination or death to our president no matter the party as a little beyond the pale. <font color="blue"> I would totally agree with you if he had really meant it. I don't really think Drop1 wants the Pres assassinated tho. </font color> We have had severla presidents killed and just the idea of it is replusive to most Americans. Here, it is not just an attack on a man but on the institution of our form of government. <font color="blue"> I can understand that this can be for some people, like yourself, a sensitive issue. Being the POTUS does seem to be a dangerous job!Not being an American, I can only see the POTUS as an elected politician. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif</font color>

In your other point, I don't think you can equate "holding their government accountable" to the attitude we see toward Bush. Making a government official accountable is much mre than just slinging every accusation you can muster at a person. <font color="blue"> You mean like what the Reps do to Clinton? eg8r has several times accused BC of being a rapist! Others have suggested that he has had people killed- a lot of people! Not one person tho has ever provided any proof.</font color> Many things that may be fair critiques of the man are lost by the tide of wild political charges made by the left. This, in a way, has porovided GWB with some isolation from the real concerns people may have. <font color="blue"> DeeMan, the Left don't have to make 'wild' accusations about GW. The truth is much more absurd than anyone could make up.</font color>

Again I say, GWB could pull a child from a burning building and many on here would vilify him for it. You know this is true, if you will admit it. <font color="blue"> I can only speak for myself and if GW did perform an act of heroism, I would commend him for it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

BY the way, i am insulted by your proposal that we nuke Iran. However, on second thought, I'll consider it next time I parlay with George.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>

I join or start these threads because its the only chance I get to discuss these things. In real life I NEVER talk American Politics with anyone because the people I know couldn't care less. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I see the NPR as an opportunity to chat with my pool playing buddies around the world about world events. Most of us would never have had found this site if it weren't for pool. Thats our common bond. I don't want to go to those Politco Forums full of students, snot-nosed a$$holes who know it all but can't change their own underwear without Mummy to help them. They are not my kind of people.

We all lead our different lives, come from different backgrounds and therefore have different views and opinions on different subjects. What a boring world it would be if we all agreed on everything. Red China, N.K..........we don't want that here on the NPR.

OK, Lets all hold hands............ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif...........Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
10-25-2006, 07:31 PM
Well now, see Steve, this is a really good example of how we are hearing two different things from the same exact words, because, I have done a lot of reading about this statement of his, and according to my studies, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush, have a blanket policy for hard balling anyone who doesn't tow their line, and their line, has been....don't ask for more troops. The Generals, get the message, and unless they are ready to be axed, as General Schenshekki was, when he told them they were not taking in enough troops, to get the job done, they keep their mouths shut! Further, I can't even count the numbers of high ranking Generals, and Statesmen, and former members of the War Cabinet, who have flat out called for Rumsfeld's resignation. But, Bush, refuses to get rid of him, regardless, because Rummy will cover for Bush, and my view, is that many many people have lost thier lives, precisely because Bush, refuses to get rid of Rumsfeld, regardless, and Rumsfeld is incompetent, arrogant, hard headed, and unrealistic.

So you see, you hear accountability from his words, I hear complete denial. The M.O. of this administration, right from the start, was that if they couldn't control people, and get them to jump into the prepared false rhetoric, with both feet, and help to cover up the facts, they were ousted! I can't count the meny times I have read about this. Denial is the name of their game, period! No accident, that Woodward chose that word for the title of his book.

Again, if you read, The Secret Way To War, Hubris, Fiasco and State Of Denial I think that even you, would take a very different view of George Bush, and his Administration.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Drop1
10-25-2006, 07:36 PM
I'm amazed that some people cannot understand exageration as a way to make a statement that a reasonable man under similar circumstances would not find absurd. I hope Deeman,can get over a post that was pure hyperbole,or exageration beyond belief. I have stated many times in the forums,that I do not believe Jesus ever existed,and as far as real harm to George Bush, my only wish is that he was not the President,when the towers were hit. It is a sad day,but in a way I can understand,because there is a real terrroist threat,and there are loose cannons running around.

pooltchr
10-26-2006, 04:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Well now, see Steve, this is a really good example of how we are hearing two different things from the same exact words, because, I have done a lot of reading about this statement of his,
<font color="red"> How much reading is "a lot" of reading? He just made the comment yesterday. How much as been written about it? </font color>

So you see, you hear accountability from his words, I hear complete denial.
<font color="red"> Exactly. I hear what he said. You hear what you believe to be a hidden meaning behind what he said. This is where we really disagree. I accept what someone says until I have proof that it is not correct. You believe everything GW says is a lie, and that is that. </font color>
Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> In politics, very little is black and white...there is a lot of gray. Everything GW says or does is not bad. You already admitted he's good to his dog!!! If you look a little deeper, I bet he treats his horse pretty good as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he even changes the oil in his pick-up every 3000 miles. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
Steve

hondo
10-26-2006, 07:19 AM
What's with all this love? What are we on here?
A bunch of friggin new agers? ( just kiddin, Wolfie)

Gayle in MD
10-26-2006, 08:33 AM
Are you saying, that you are unaware that this bunch, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, is the reason why the Iraqi Army was disbanded? Didn't you hear the way he addressed that issue, and others, regarding the events which occurred, after the occupation. I have the proof of his lies, before he tells them, because I have read numerous accounts, of what he and his people have done. If you took the time to educate yourself on the facts, you, too would have known, and seen, for yourself, how he wiggled out of what is his own fault, during that press conference.

He took absolutely no responsibility for any of the unfortunate turn of events after the occupation, in spite of the fact, that every single one he outlined, was a direct result of Rumsfeld, and Bush, refusing to heed the predictions and warnings of people who were tremendously more qualified to make those predictions and judgements, than they were. Yet, have you ever heard him say, "Well, we were wrong to go in without enough troops, to maintain order." Ever heard him say, "We used poor judgement after the occupation, Schenshekki, and Powell, were right, and we should have listened" "Ever heard him say, "Because we didn't have enough boots on the ground, terrorists were able to flock over the borders? The Iraqi Army, because WE DISBANDED THEM, was able to take up arms, against our troops. Ever heard him admit that the way we treated people there, after the occupation, caused us to lose the trust of many Iraqis, and they then began to fight against us. Do you know we were paying for prisoners, without any evidence of law breaking, and shipping them enmass to jail? Innocent people, who were basically rounded up, and jailed, for nothing? What do you think the Iraqis thought about us after they saw that? Rumsfeld, is grossly incompetent, and stubborn, put those two things together, and you end up with exactly the disaster we have right now. Everytime I hear someone say...."Well, the Democrats don't have any plan of their own," I almost choke. The best minds in the world are unable to sift through this FIASCO, and come up with a sure plan for an exit, with victory.

Tell me, can you see that the predictions that Powell made, are now the reality on the ground.? He was axed. Can you see the predictions that Schenshekki made, are now the reality on the ground? He was axed. Can you see the predictions, that Murtha made, now the reality on the ground? He was slandered.

For George Bush, to get up there in front of the American People, with that grinning condescending smirk, and have the nerve to say...."We're winning In Iraq."

OMG, if you can't see through him now, I give up!



I highly Recommend "Fiasco" "Hubris" "The Secret Way To War" and "State Of Denial" to anyone who is interested in the truth regarding gross incompetence of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, and an accounting of their continuous lying.

Here's the truth, Steve, Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney, through their bull headed, arrogant, uncooperative prosecution of this war, have cost the lives of thousands of people. Yet, we still have to watch him up there, with that smirk, like he's trying to explain to the rest of we dummies, how wrong we are, for not "Getting It" The vague lip service he offers when he puts on his BS acknowledgment, that he is ultimately responsible, does not in any way address, or account, for the overall failure of his leadership, when he follows it with more lies about his ability to make accurate judgements, the result of those judgements, and the liklihood of any positive future results.

Let me ask you this, do you believe, that if Iraq was a peaceful, democracy, that that would end terrorist attacks here? Or anywhere else in the world? This is the false premise he uses to promote his war. How many times have you heard him say, "If we don't fight them there, they're going to come here."

DUH, they already did! They're going to come here, regardless.

Bush, IMO. Has lost credibility in our world. You may think, he is undeserving of that result. I strongly disagree.

nAz
10-26-2006, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> What's with all this love? What are we on here?
A bunch of friggin new agers? ( just kiddin, Wolfie) <hr /></blockquote>

bunch of fags...

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

hondo
10-26-2006, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> What's with all this love? What are we on here?
A bunch of friggin new agers? ( just kiddin, Wolfie) <hr /></blockquote>

bunch of fags...

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Hey! That's not PC!

Drop1
10-26-2006, 10:17 AM
Come on guys,I have diabeties,and all this sweet talk is blowing my glucose level through the roof. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

hondo
10-26-2006, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Come on guys,I have diabeties,and all this sweet talk is blowing my glucose level through the roof. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Don't worry, Harry; it's not suger; it's saccharine.

Drop1
10-26-2006, 11:26 AM
Must be the power of suggestion

nAz
10-26-2006, 11:38 AM
dude I'm from Brooklyn... we still have our rights over here /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif