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killerstroke
10-30-2006, 09:39 AM
If a player scratches in straight pool, the incomming player has BIH behind the head string. Can the incomming player place the CB in the jaws of the pocket, and corner hook the ball, or in other words freeze the CB against the inside of the jaws. If this is allowed or not, what is the penalty and so on. Thanks!

cueball1950
10-30-2006, 10:04 AM
i believe that he must shoot the cueball past the head spot in order for it to be a legal shot..................mike

slim
10-30-2006, 12:05 PM
It's not allowed, must hit outside the headstring, allot of players do and use inside english to bring it back in the kitchen, that is legal.

Bob_Jewett
10-30-2006, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote killerstroke:</font><hr> If a player scratches in straight pool, the incomming player has BIH behind the head string. Can the incomming player place the CB in the jaws of the pocket, and corner hook the ball, or in other words freeze the CB against the inside of the jaws. If this is allowed or not, what is the penalty and so on. Thanks! <hr /></blockquote>
Not allowed. Foul. The cue ball remains in hand behind the line for the incoming player. You have to shoot the cue ball over the line (or contact an object ball over the line, although the cue ball does not actually cross the line first). This is the same as if the player had nudged the cue ball by accident but it had not crossed the head string.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2006, 01:22 PM
Not allowed, but NO Foul... the player that has BIH behind the headstring, can only shoot the cue ball across the headstring to start their turn at the table. Anything they do behind the line (unless touch another ball, which is a foul) doesn't count as a "Shot".

Fran Crimi
10-30-2006, 03:14 PM
According to BCA rule 3.39, you're both wrong. Bob shouldn't assume the game is refereed, and I believe Tom is thinking of an old rule that had to do with breaking and what constitutes start of the game.

Rule 3.39, PLAYING FROM BEHIND THE STRING

...he must drive the cue ball to a point across the head string before it contacts either a cushion, an object ball, or returns to the kitchen. Failure to do so is a foul if a referee is presiding over a match. If no referee, the opponent has the option to call it either a foul or to require the offending player to raplay the shot again with the balls restored to their positions prior to the shot (and with no foul penalty imposed)...."

Fran

Bob_Jewett
10-30-2006, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Not allowed, but NO Foul... the player that has BIH behind the headstring, can only shoot the cue ball across the headstring to start their turn at the table. Anything they do behind the line (unless touch another ball, which is a foul) doesn't count as a "Shot". <hr /></blockquote>
Any tip-to-cue-ball stroke counts as a shot when the cue ball is in hand. You get no protection from the line. Nudge the break shot with your warm-up strokes and you have fouled.

Fran Crimi
10-30-2006, 05:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Not allowed, but NO Foul... the player that has BIH behind the headstring, can only shoot the cue ball across the headstring to start their turn at the table. Anything they do behind the line (unless touch another ball, which is a foul) doesn't count as a "Shot". <hr /></blockquote>
Any tip-to-cue-ball stroke counts as a shot when the cue ball is in hand. You get no protection from the line. Nudge the break shot with your warm-up strokes and you have fouled. <hr /></blockquote>

Now wait a minute. There were lots of changes over the years, particularly whenever a new men's pro organization took over. They were always tweaking the rules. There was a span of time where it was considered that a game did not start until the cue ball passed the head string. It may not have been a BCA rule but it was definitely a rule played by the pros. The women may have adopted it as well for a short while. Tom may very well have been thinking of that rule.

Fran

killerstroke
10-30-2006, 05:22 PM
Thanks to all. I now know where it is in the rules and can show all who didn't believe me. I will give all the credit to the board and take none of it. Thanks again!

Tom_In_Cincy
10-30-2006, 06:15 PM
Fran,
I wasn't thinking about the rule you referred to, but I am confused with Bob's response.

In 9 ball there isn't a condition where an intentional foul (like the one described) MAKES the incoming player shoot from where the cue ball rests "IN THE JAWS". 8 Ball is the same.

14.1 is the game and every time the cue ball scratches the cue ball can only be BIH behind the line and in the kitchen.

It has to come out of the kitchen to become a shot. If not, then we are stuck with Bob's ruling, which IMO, is trying to make a point and leaving me confused. If the rule isn't there, then it should be changed.. and if its not change,, WHY?

Bob_Jewett
10-30-2006, 09:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> ... It has to come out of the kitchen to become a shot. If not, then we are stuck with Bob's ruling, which IMO, is trying to make a point and leaving me confused. If the rule isn't there, then it should be changed.. and if its not change,, WHY? <hr /></blockquote>

Here is the wording of the present BCA/WPA rule 3.10:

When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

While a lot of people say, "the game does not start until the head ball is struck" and other such things, I think the rule has been as above for at least a couple of years.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-31-2006, 10:28 AM
Bob,

The rule you stated (3.10) is under the 'general rules' and is not specific to 14.1 (where you have to play where the cue ball rests with table fouls, and like One Pocket)

When a player scratches in 14.1 the incoming player gets bih behind the headstring. IMO the rule should read "the player's shot does not start until the cue ball passes the headstring". I remember this wording from previous years rules publishing. It isn't in the current rules... How do these rules get corrupted with reprints? There is usually (at least the past few years) addendums at the beginning of the BCA/WPA rules noting the new or revised rules. I wonder why there isn't a mention of this ommission?

In 14.1 to take bih and freeze the cue ball to the jaw of a corner pocket is a FLAGRANT infraction. It is making a 'mockery' of the game.

I equate this infraction to the intentional double hit in One Pocket when the shooter is trying to take out a ball in his opponents pocket with no chance of scratching behind the OB. He double hits the cue intentionally calling a foul on himself and therefore causing the OB and one of his balls to be spotted. This rule was changed to allow the OB to stay down and the shooter getting an 'unsportsmanship' warning with loss of match on a second occurence.

Wasn't there a recent 'rules' meeting in Chicago a few weeks ago? Did you hear anything about what is being proposed?

Bob_Jewett
10-31-2006, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Bob,

The rule you stated (3.10) is under the 'general rules' and is not specific to 14.1 (where you have to play where the cue ball rests with table fouls, and like One Pocket)
... <hr /></blockquote>
The general rules apply to all games unless contradicted by the specific rules of the games. I think that 3.10 can be applied to 14.1 without a problem. I haven't actually looked at the 14.1 rules to see if they have changed for this specific situation.

The rules have been "clarified" for the last five years or so. I suppose the clarification has not always been successful. In theory, there was a moratorium on rules changes.

The new proposed text for the WPA rules is more or less complete. There is a rule called "Bad Play from Behind the Head String" that includes the text:

The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.

While tapping the cue ball onto the jaw with ball in hand might be idiocy, the punishment is just giving up ball in hand to your opponent under this rule. I think that's OK, since the position of the balls has not been altered. The same (proposed) rule makes it unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally hit balls behind the line when the cue ball is in hand.

MrLucky
11-01-2006, 04:42 AM
<font color="red"> Yes Bob thats the way I have always known it! I have had a few chumps (trying to get and edge) try to tell me if i move the cue with my cue it is a ball in hand foul! I always put it on them playing too much 9 ball </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif