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nAz
10-30-2006, 08:26 PM
Rumors are circulating that it has gone under, what have you heard?

If its true KT will probably file bankruptcy and not have to pay out what he/they owe... although that might not work if the prizes were supposed to be guaranteed.

well at least his boy Mike segal got paid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif lol

9ball_master
10-31-2006, 02:01 AM
IPT - REAL pool REAL rules FAKE money

Rich R.
10-31-2006, 03:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Rumors are circulating that it has gone under, what have you heard?<hr /></blockquote>
It ain't dead yet, but it is definitely on life support.
Per the story on the IP web site, they are rescheduling three tournaments. Time will tell if they ever get played.
Time will also tell if the players ever get paid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

MrLucky
10-31-2006, 04:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Rumors are circulating that it has gone under, what have you heard?

If its true KT will probably file bankruptcy and not have to pay out what he/they owe... although that might not work if the prizes were supposed to be guaranteed.

well at least his boy Mike segal got paid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif lol <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif <font color="green">Actually the "guarantees" aren't worth the paper the contract was written on if the corporation or LLC is insolvent! Hence the delays and put offs this is a classic way to burn all available cash and walk away! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

9 Ball Girl
10-31-2006, 07:47 AM
Cherchez La Debt /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Most of the pool players, live on the road
He got their hopes up, 1 year ago
Maybe they'll get paid, maybe they won't
Oh no, never, no, no
He draws them all in with his talk of money
What a honey
Blowin' his smoke on false promises
oh ain't it crazy baby, yeah
Guess you could say, hey hey, players learned their lesson, oh-oh, hey, hey
now they're alone they've got no tourney and no dough
for misery oh- Ho, cherchez la debt

All fans of players are very upset
we're sick of seeing them livin' in debt
tired of emails
and tired of brats
I P T knows its
noble man says "players I understand" oh my money
now he's working two cons with players and Ho afar
Oh ain't it crazy
now we complain
that the man is never present
so we go to the forum, I know we're just playing the whore
for misery, my friends, cherchez la debt

they'll tell you a lie with a colgate smile
hey baby
love 'em one second and rob 'em the next
oh ain't it crazy, yeah
all I can say
of one thing I am certain
theyr'e all the same
all the cons and the games
for misery, my friends
cherchez la debt
oh yeah cherchez la debt
oh yeah cherchez la debt
yeah cherchez la debt
ohohohohoh, that's Kevin
ohohohohoh, that's Kevin
trudeauuuuu trudeauuuuu, pay up, pay up, PAY UP!

hondo
10-31-2006, 08:05 AM
Eg8r, speak up. Come to your man's defense.

Fran Crimi
10-31-2006, 08:44 AM
nAz, I think he tried. I really do. There are a few people in the background of this thing, whose names I won't mention, who are totally devoted to our sport. They would never stand for a scheme that bleeds the players.

I just think he was overly ambitions about raising the financing to pay the over-the-top prize monies. Even with his connections and contacts, the sponsors just weren't biting.

It's possible this whole thing was structured from the beginning to turn into an internet betting thing. We'll know when somebody on the inside starts talking, probably not for awhile.

Fran

dr_dave
10-31-2006, 09:22 AM
There sure has been a lot of negative press about the IPT, starting from day one. I'm not saying there weren't reasons to be suspicious, I just wish more positive energy was directed at the concept. Even if the IPT folds, I still think it was a great idea, and I wish more people had done more to be supportive and to help make it work.

Maybe there is a chance the IPT will survive. I sure hope so, because the IPT is still potentially the best thing that ever happened to pool (IMO).

Dave

PS: BTW, I agree that it is unforgivable that players were not paid on time, as promised. Hopefully, this issue can be resolved (although, not forgiven).

eg8r
10-31-2006, 09:27 AM
I don't think he is my man. I did chat with him (I asked him if he would give Marlon a bonus if he went undefeated throughout the whole event. KT said he was thinking about it, but then Marlon lost to Francisco and Efren) one time at an IPT event but that doesn't count. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think I remember debating back and forth with you about a book purchase but I don't think I was getting real chummy with KT because of it.

This whole time I have had a sit and wait attitude. I never thought it would have such a quick fallout but such is the case.

eg8r

hondo
10-31-2006, 09:51 AM
Sent you a PM.

nAz
10-31-2006, 11:10 AM
ah so now the story is that they will reschedule three tournaments, I hope it still works out.

nAz
10-31-2006, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif <font color="green">Actually the "guarantees" aren't worth the paper the contract was written on if the corporation or LLC is insolvent! Hence the delays and put offs this is a classic way to burn all available cash and walk away! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I new there was a loop hole somewhere.

nAz
10-31-2006, 11:17 AM
Fran I believe that too I do think he really tried to make it work but i would think that if he was really putting up the prize money from his own pockets that the players should have gotten paid already, regardless of the fact that the IPT was not making money.
He should know more then most people that a new business could take years to show a profit, I just wish he would could stick it for two years or so.

nAz
10-31-2006, 11:23 AM
In other circulating Rumors I hear from two different sources that IPT front man Deno Andrews was accused of fondling a married female player or something to that effect.
Does anyone know if this is true? I met the man several times and while I know anything is possible I doubt that this has happened since he always seemed devoted to his wife and family.
If true I wonder if this has contributed to the IPT woes.

dr_dave
10-31-2006, 11:41 AM
I sure hope your sources are independent and extremely dependable and trustworthy (e.g., they both saw it with their own two eyes); otherwise, I think it is inappropriate to post such a slanderous accusation in a public forum.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> In other circulating Rumors I hear from two different sources that IPT front man Deno Andrews was accused of fondling a married female player or something to that effect.
Does anyone know if this is true? I met the man several times and while I know anything is possible I doubt that this has happened since he always seemed devoted to his wife and family.
If true I wonder if this has contributed to the IPT woes. <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
10-31-2006, 12:03 PM
IPT (we hardly knew you)
http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/images/smileys/tombstone.gif

dr_dave
10-31-2006, 01:37 PM
Maybe somebody with a shovel and lots of money and a love for pool can save the day.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> IPT (we hardly knew you)
http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/images/smileys/tombstone.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
10-31-2006, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Maybe somebody with a shovel and lots of money and a love for pool can save the day. ... <hr /></blockquote>
If I had a spare $100,000,000 and I wanted to spend it on the promotion of pool, I doubt that I'd settle on the IPT model (as originally described, not as actually implemented). I think there are more efficient plans, perhaps ones that don't ignore or trash those who have been promoting pool for the past 50 years.

9 Ball Girl
10-31-2006, 11:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I sure hope your sources are independent and extremely dependable and trustworthy (e.g., they both saw it with their own two eyes); otherwise, I think it is inappropriate to post such a slanderous accusation in a public forum.<hr /></blockquote>A police report was filed. It's all over the AZB's IPT forum. Turns out that several people know of this...

Cueless Joey
11-01-2006, 01:28 AM
So was IPT a democratic or republican organization?
One rich fraud fronted while his number one man was a midget who fondled married women. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
11-01-2006, 03:36 AM
web page (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=44983&amp;page=2)
Scroll down to Eydie's post.

Q

MrLucky
11-01-2006, 04:01 AM
With all respect to his supporters and well wishers / unable to give it uppers!/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Trudeau has a well documented history of promoting scams ! When the IPT was first begun I posted on his history and my doubts!, Why does anyone think that he has changed his colors? the main characteristic of a Master Con Man is to have the scammed believe in him or her until the bitter end! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran Crimi
11-01-2006, 07:43 AM
Maybe you can explain what the scam is here. I don't quite understand. How does the IPT scam work?

Fran

hondo
11-01-2006, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> With all respect to his supporters and well wishers / unable to give it uppers!/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Trudeau has a well documented history of promoting scams ! When the IPT was first begun I posted on his history and my doubts!, Why does anyone think that he has changed his colors? the main characteristic of a Master Con Man is to have the scammed believe in him or her until the bitter end! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Why do you hate pool? LOL.

Fran Crimi
11-01-2006, 10:29 AM
Yup. I feel really bad for the players who I heard spent quite a bit of money through credit cards anticipating their checks, who are now freaking out that they can't pay their debts. This may go down in pool history as being the king of all stiffs. I hope not.

We got stiffed in the old days, but this beats all.

Fran

MrLucky
11-01-2006, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Yup. I feel really bad for the players who I heard spent quite a bit of money through credit cards anticipating their checks, who are now freaking out that they can't pay their debts. This may go down in pool history as being the king of all stiffs. I hope not.

We got stiffed in the old days, but this beats all.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> Add to that the entry fees ! the hotel and food bills the and airfares ! Not too mention missed opportunities</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

9 Ball Girl
11-01-2006, 07:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Yup. I feel really bad for the players who I heard spent quite a bit of money through credit cards anticipating their checks, who are now freaking out that they can't pay their debts. This may go down in pool history as being the king of all stiffs. I hope not.

We got stiffed in the old days, but this beats all.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Not to mention some who may've quit their day jobs.

Fran Crimi
11-02-2006, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Yup. I feel really bad for the players who I heard spent quite a bit of money through credit cards anticipating their checks, who are now freaking out that they can't pay their debts. This may go down in pool history as being the king of all stiffs. I hope not.

We got stiffed in the old days, but this beats all.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> Add to that the entry fees ! the hotel and food bills the and airfares ! Not too mention missed opportunities</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

All true, but nonpayment of debts in itself does not constitute a scam, nor does refusing to pour one's own money into a business, regardless of what was said up front. From what I understand, he did pour a few mil into the business before he turned on the brakes. Usually with a scam, somebody comes out ahead. Who's coming out ahead here?

Fran

MrLucky
11-02-2006, 08:53 AM
Trust me Trudeau does not lose money! I have long followed his career all his ventures wind up under scrutiny or in courts! Do some research then report back...... I guarentee you if millions (and I seriously doubt the validity of that figure) were spent it was fron investors not from his other scam profits such as the fake health cures ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

try this for starts then check with the fdc web site for more info on him!....


What Kevin Trudeau doesn't want you to know

The author of the bestselling "Natural Cures 'They' Don't Want You to Know About" claims to be a consumer advocate in the Ralph Nader mold. But the infomercial king just wants your cash.

By Christopher Dreher
Pages 1 2 3

BooksJuly 29, 2005 | Many a late-night channel surfer has been numbed to sleep by endless infomercials hawking ab machines, penis enlargers, psychic readings and baldness cures. But how about a 30-minute faux talk show featuring a slick "expert author" who promises natural cures for cancer, diabetes and chronic fatigue syndrome and who claims that the FDA, drug companies and food industry have withheld such cures from the public in order to keep making bigger and bigger profits?

Step right up folks, and tune in to the paranoid world of master huckster Kevin Trudeau, whose book "Natural Cures 'They' Don't Want You to Know About" climbed to the top spot on the New York Times bestseller list for advice titles last weekend. The Federal Trade Commission virtually banned Trudeau from the airwaves last year in an attempt to "shut down an infomercial empire that has misled American consumers for years." But by shifting his business model from selling supposed cure-all products to peddling books, which are protected by the First Amendment, Trudeau has been able to slip past federal regulators and continue to sell snake oil to the masses -- first through his infomercial and now via mainstream book retailers like Amazon.com and Barnes &amp; Noble.

Reno R. Rollé, an executive consultant who handles U.S. retail and international distribution for "Natural Cures," says the book has sold nearly 3 million copies since the infomercial debuted in September 2004, and he sees no end in sight to its success. "No one knows where this thing is going to max out. We're just printing as many books as we can," Rollé says. "We're poised to make history here. What we're doing could revolutionize the book publishing industry."

Even before hitting the bestseller list, Trudeau, who is in his early 40s, had built a billion-dollar empire as a prolific infomercialteer, selling various health and self-improvement products under the cover of night. This despite a two-year stint in federal prison in the early '90s after pleading guilty to credit card fraud, and a 1996 tangle with the Illinois attorney general, who accused him of running a pyramid scheme while working for a health-products company called Nutrition for Life. Trudeau and a co-defendant settled that case, paying $185,000 to Illinois and seven other states; during that time, the U.S. Postal Service and Securities and Exchange Commission also investigated his business dealings.

A close look at Trudeau's later run-in with the FTC, in 1998, during which he and seven cohorts were accused of making "false or unsubstantiated" claims in advertisements on radio and television infomercials, sheds much needed light on his character and says a lot about how seriously (or not) we should take "Natural Cures." Ads for the "Sable Hair Farming System," Trudeau's own "Mega Memory System," "Doctor Callahan's Addiction Breaking System," "Action Reading," "Eden's Secret Nature's Purifying Product" and "Howard Berg's Mega Reading" all came under scrutiny they could not withstand. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MrLucky
11-02-2006, 08:57 AM
<font color="red">To use TO's famous agents phrase ...NEXT QUESTION?... </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Fran Crimi
11-02-2006, 09:04 AM
Look, this is not someone I would bring home to the folks, but I'm still waiting to hear how he scammed the players, other than close up shop when the sale fell through.

Fran

9 Ball Girl
11-02-2006, 09:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Who's coming out ahead here?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Mike Sigel? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

MrLucky
11-02-2006, 09:29 AM
Fran I do not have his books! but do the math, if he had investors! if he had entry moneys, if he had promised huge payouts ! First of all he certainly did not predicate all of this being hinged on the sale of his IPT !!!!

He did not pay out any moneys (at least thus far and most sane folks do no longer count on this event taking place ! For the players sakes I do hope it does ! but will it I think not!) So lets see Investors! Advertisers! Players Fees! then on the other hand ... <font color="red"> No Payouts! Who knows if the Hotel and other creditors have seen any or all of their moneys and fees also ! = Bankrupcy and someone with some money! I don't think its rocket science! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MrLucky
11-02-2006, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Look, this is not someone I would bring home to the folks, but I'm still waiting to hear how he scammed the players, other than close up shop when the sale fell through.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green">and Fran between us I am glad you wouldn't bring him to meet the folks! that shows some insight and cleverness on your part! /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I do not remember anywhere in his promotions where it says I am paying you players this promised money based on this company / entity being sold to a Asian billionaire and only upon this sale will I really be able to make good! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
11-02-2006, 09:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Who's coming out ahead here?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Mike Sigel? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Wendy, I don't think it benefits anyone to go there. It's not right. They're lynching everybody and anybody now, because they didn't get paid. I don't blame the players for being angry but lynching is nothing more than revenge.

Fran Crimi
11-02-2006, 09:55 AM
Lucky, I do understand your frustration and anger. I'm a player, remember? I know what it's like to make a poor living playing pool. But none of us can read his mind. We'll have to wait and see as the evidence unfolds. That's all there is to it.

Fran

9 Ball Girl
11-02-2006, 12:48 PM
There's going to be another "announcement/interview" later today or tomorrow. Stay tuned...

Bob_Jewett
11-03-2006, 01:10 PM
For the effect on just one player who believed what Kevin said, to his great sorrow and loss, check out: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45287

I suppose we should explain to him that in the US there is a long tradition of promoters slipping away in the night with the prize fund. As a European, the player is probably unaware of this tradition.

Perhaps I have my definitions confused, but the IPT is looking more and more like a scam.

Fran Crimi
11-03-2006, 02:03 PM
Please explain how the scam works. That's all I've been asking here. People are saying 'scam' but no one goes beyond that. What was KT's intention and who is getting scammed and how?

Fran

Bob_Jewett
11-03-2006, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ... What was KT's intention and who is getting scammed and how? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think no one knows the real answer to that except KT.

But if the 2007 season does not occur, and the IPT does not refund all of the Tour Qualifier qualifier money they have collected and are continuing to collect, I would call that a scam.

Wouldn't you?

dr_dave
11-03-2006, 02:39 PM
The other factor to consider in the "scam" equation is how much revenue KT generated for his non-IPT products through IPT promotion and PR.

Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ... What was KT's intention and who is getting scammed and how? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think no one knows the real answer to that except KT.

But if the 2007 season does not occur, and the IPT does not refund all of the Tour Qualifier qualifier money they have collected and are continuing to collect, I would call that a scam.

Wouldn't you? <hr /></blockquote>

nAz
11-03-2006, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> For the effect on just one player who believed what Kevin said, to his great sorrow and loss, check out: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45287

I suppose we should explain to him that in the US there is a long tradition of promoters slipping away in the night with the prize fund. As a European, the player is probably unaware of this tradition.

Perhaps I have my definitions confused, but the IPT is looking more and more like a scam. <hr /></blockquote>


Boy that really suxs... there is this Korean champ Park that has been living in NYC for the last 6 months or so, he moved here temporally so he could try to qualify for the IPT.
He came in I believe 3rd in each of the last two events he entered. Right now he is the hottest shooter in NYC and if there was another event I'm sure he would make it,
But last Wednesday night he told me that he was done and leaving this month Back to Korea. He was pretty pissed at the IPT, since he put a lot of his own money and time to come here and try to win it. makes me wonder how many other have gone through this.

wolfdancer
11-03-2006, 04:08 PM
I don't believe it was a scam...I think it cost Kevin $$ out of his own pocket, and while I thought the sale price reported and the actual price were not even close amounts....I think the players would have been already paid off by now. It was a good try to make the tour work, first class productions, but the hoped for revenue streams did not occur. If the sale does not go through, KT walks away a loser as well.
Sad for pool, sad for the players....and don't know how Efran can handle it....it's like losing the winning lottey ticket.
Since KT has not mentioned BK, and has promised payoffs...we might be all jumping the gun...

Fran Crimi
11-03-2006, 05:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> ... What was KT's intention and who is getting scammed and how? ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think no one knows the real answer to that except KT.

But if the 2007 season does not occur, and the IPT does not refund all of the Tour Qualifier qualifier money they have collected and are continuing to collect, I would call that a scam.

Wouldn't you? <hr /></blockquote>

No. I would first want to understand how he paid out 3 million in prize money. Has anybody done the math on the qualifiers? How much has he taken in opposed to what's been paid out? What's his bottom line to date?

You can't just isolate one situation and call the entire operation a scam. You have to look at the whole picture. Again, we don't know enough at this point.

Fran

RGRoss43
11-03-2006, 06:25 PM
I called the Wynn hotel today about the IPT tournament in Dec. 06 and was told that it was canceled.

MrLucky
11-03-2006, 07:20 PM
Well, I have tried hard to spell it out quite a few times for you I guess this task is beyond my abilities! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif Let me just put it this way if I promised you I would pay you to ... Lets say wash my windows ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif and after you finished the job ! I then tell you I will need to send you a check! ... then lets say a couple of months later I tell you I am selling my house and since the windows are attached to the house and you washed the part I am selling I now have to wait for the house to close before I can pay you! then a week later I tell you ...

<font color="green">Well Fran guess what ! the fellow that was buying my house was going to run a business out of it that is now illegal so he's not sure he can go forward with buying my house so I just might have to declare bankrupcy and you won't get paid since the house is for sale and I am not going to pay you with my hard stolen money! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <font color="red">So now Fran would you feel like someone ripped you off ? </font color>


<font color="blue">Well Fran thats what I call a SCAM! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Bob_Jewett
11-03-2006, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> ... I then tell you I will need to send you a check! ... then lets say a couple of months later I tell you I am selling my house and since the windows are attached to the house and you washed the part I am selling I now have to wait for the house to close before I can pay you! then a week later I tell you ...... <hr /></blockquote>
So the latest announcement, as reported by players who were called by the IPT, is that the IPT will pay only $1M out of the $3M announced prize fund for Reno. The money will be paid in three installments a month apart. That means that if you are due $18,000, you will get $2000 some time in November, $2000 some time in December and $2000 some time in January, and the other $12,000 will not be paid.

So far as I know, no player has yet received any check of any amount for Reno, so we are still in wait-and-see mode about any payment.

MrLucky
11-03-2006, 07:50 PM
And you know what Bob I really doubt this will happen ! but if it does, I will bet you that first check will come with a release notice signifying that the endorsement of this check will release IPT from future and past promises !

Bob_Jewett
11-03-2006, 07:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> ... So the latest announcement, as reported by players who were called by the IPT, ... <hr /></blockquote>
I just looked over the IPT web site to see if there was any info posted there on this announcement. It seems to be behind on updates. It still claims on one page that the Tour Qualifier will be at the Wynn in December.

At least there is no longer a promise of a minimum of $100,000 payout per player for 2007. Or course, many players entered qualifiers based on this promise. It still says that anyone who wins a Tour Qualifier spot will get free airfare and hotel for the Qualifier (in December at the Wynn).

It also claims that the prize fund for 2007 will be $18.6 million, that Dorothy's ruby slippers have been found and that Deno Andrews is the King of Scotland.

reggie182
11-03-2006, 08:21 PM
I saw a reference to a proposal of 1/3 of promised winnings being offered on the AzBilliards site as well.
As a poster there wisely suggested, players should talk to an attorney before taking any such offer from the IPT.

Fran Crimi
11-03-2006, 09:01 PM
Hey, I appreciate all you're doing to try to drill the meaning of a scam into my head. I do admit I'm a bit dense at times. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

See, here's my problem. My job for several years was as an investigative accountant. My area of specialty was white collar criminal activities. I've seen quite a bit and I'm pretty familliar with the tricks of the trade. You may very well be right, and you may soon be shouting all kinds of 'I told you so's' through the rafters, but my training tells me not to draw conclusions until I see the evidence of the money trail. The money trail will tell you the whole story. Presently, that information is not available, so you can shout, yell and scream, and I will be most happy to tell you you're right, but not until I know the facts about the money trail.

Remember Watergate --- Follow the money? No truer words were ever spoken. Where did the money come from and where did it go? That's really all we need to know.

Fran

TCIndepMo
11-03-2006, 11:37 PM
Well, apparently some of the money went to BILLIARDS DIGEST as the November issue contains 3 full page ads for the IPT. I am doubting that this happened unless the mag was paid up front. They also got the cover and numerous pages of text inside with the various articles, standings, money rankings, interviews, etc.
Is anyone at the Justice department (that went after KT before) smiling and saying "I told you so" to themselves?
Does KT have any personel security, like 24/7 for instance?
If I wanted to join the IPT membership club for "only $5.95 a month" could I pay later "when my checks get delivered", when Madonna adopts me, or when John Kerry stops being stupid?
Does anyone (outside the billiard grapevine, I mean)watching the weekly IPT shows on Versus have any idea of the scam they are watching? And, YES, many think the word "scam" (a deceptive act)is the right word.
And how many pool playing lawyers are eyeing this whole mess and wondering how/where KT hides his assets? If they can answer that one, the lawsuits will start.
IMO, at least.

MrLucky
11-04-2006, 04:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hey, I appreciate all you're doing to try to drill the meaning of a scam into my head. I do admit I'm a bit dense at times. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

See, here's my problem. My job for several years was as an investigative accountant. My area of specialty was white collar criminal activities. I've seen quite a bit and I'm pretty familliar with the tricks of the trade. You may very well be right, and you may soon be shouting all kinds of 'I told you so's' through the rafters, but my training tells me not to draw conclusions until I see the evidence of the money trail. The money trail will tell you the whole story. Presently, that information is not available, so you can shout, yell and scream, and I will be most happy to tell you you're right, but not until I know the facts about the money trail.

Remember Watergate --- Follow the money? No truer words were ever spoken. Where did the money come from and where did it go? That's really all we need to know.

Fran <hr /></blockquote> <font color="red"> Hey Fran trust me on this much! I would not be screaming "I told you so!" I really hope what I am seeing and believing is totally wrong! I would not like to be in any of the players shoes right know! (well at least as far as this IPT goes anyways! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> But having watched Mr Trudeaus illustrious Career (which has been ripe with ripoffs and scams throughout!) /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif and (since we are throwing out credentials!) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif a Masters in Business (NYU) together with a little over 30 years with a Fortune 50 as a Director, I have learned one thing if nothing else ! If it looks like a pig, it goes oink and it wallows in mud ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif then its usually pork when slaughtered and for pork eaters they can usually expect some fresh bacon in the morning! . /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif So I guess in my mind I am having a problem with a ex ..."investigative accountant....<font color="blue"> whose </font color>.... area of specialty was white collar criminal activities" That knows this mans long documented history with the Government!!!! That is still having trouble believing that this wasn't just a good business gone bad! In my mind that is like marrying a young lady from a GIRLS GONE WILD VIDEO and expecting her to be a inexperienced Virgin on the honeymoon and expressing surprise when she "goes around the world on you"! ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<font color="green"> And I do understand that accountants (and I have had it out with quite a few during my career) are trained to add up the dollars and cents and nothing else matters ! but there comes a time when you have to also add in History ! Character! and potential for problems ! when evaluating a candidate or an issue! As has always been stated you can't tell the future without looking at the past! Peace Phil </font color>

Fran Crimi
11-04-2006, 08:41 AM
I've worked with the best, Phil; some of the best white collar criminal defense attorneys in the country, including Bob Morvillo, Martha Stewart's atty. I've worked on both sides of the fence, both prosecution and defense. I appreciate your credentials, but white collar crime is all about the money.

Let's just wait and see what happens, okay?

Fran

Fran Crimi
11-04-2006, 08:51 AM
Now you're on the right track. Follow the money trail.

As for BD, they go to copy two months before the mag date. And they may have collected the money for the ad even sooner than that. There may have even been a contract for the year.

It takes awhile to shut things down. There's always residual stuff going on.

As for KT's assets, they're probably well protected. I think he has some experience at this.

Fran

MrLucky
11-05-2006, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Now you're on the right track. Follow the money trail.

As for BD, they go to copy two months before the mag date. And they may have collected the money for the ad even sooner than that. There may have even been a contract for the year.

It takes awhile to shut things down. There's always residual stuff going on.

As for KT's assets, they're probably well protected. I think he has some experience at this.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <font color="green"> Well we agree that KT is "experienced " in scams and how to keep his gains ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif and though you probably don't see it ! We actually are agreement in the overall premise that it won't be able to be legally proven until his books and financiers are unraveled (if that ever even happens!) I am only alarmed that so many did not see or least smell this coming knowing his illustrious /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif and documented business history!</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Fran Crimi
11-05-2006, 09:51 AM
What the heck is wrong with you? Why do you keep trying to make it look like I'm on the IPT bandwagon? What have I done to you other than memoralize your Uncle Cisero in BD? And by the way, one of the few people who did. Why not go after those who didn't care a hoot about him? Huh? I thought he was a great man and I had the guts to speak up about him. Did you go to his funeral? I did. Use your head, man. What kind of person do you think I am if I cared enough about Cisero as a person and a player to go through all that trouble on his behalf? Do you think I'm the type of person to believe anything that a promoter says who suddenly comes along? No, I proceed with caution but I don't condemn until there is sufficient evidence.

Where are all your earlier posts here warning everyone about the IPT? I don't see one. Stop chasing me around and going after me like some bully just because I want to remain objective. What do you want, my lunch money? I'm staying objective. Get over it.

maddogvinnie
11-05-2006, 11:00 AM
It is a real mess and it makes me sick to see pool take such a hit. So sad. If I was a player I would take the money and run and then try and get my old day job back. Life will continue and the sun will come up in the morning. We are just back where we were before and some will see this once the anger cools off.

maddogvinnie
11-05-2006, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> What the heck is wrong with you? Why do you keep trying to make it look like I'm on the IPT bandwagon? What have I done to you other than memoralize your Uncle Cisero in BD? And by the way, one of the few people who did. Why not go after those who didn't care a hoot about him? Huh? I thought he was a great man and I had the guts to speak up about him. Did you go to his funeral? I did. Use your head, man. What kind of person do you think I am if I cared enough about Cisero as a person and a player to go through all that trouble on his behalf? Do you think I'm the type of person to believe anything that a promoter says who suddenly comes along? No, I proceed with caution but I don't condemn until there is sufficient evidence.

Where are all your earlier posts here warning everyone about the IPT? I don't see one. Stop chasing me around and going after me like some bully just because I want to remain objective. What do you want, my lunch money? I'm staying objective. Get over it. <hr /></blockquote>


Frannie, Mr. Lucky is a bully and enjoys following people from post to post just to argue and fight with them. He has a long history of this activity and it stems from him riding his uncles coat tails trying to pass him self off as a great teacher of knowledge passed on to him which was in reality probably zero and trying to run down those who actually do teach. Another no body wanting to be some body. The net is full of them.
I would sum it all up as simple jealousy. Just ignore him, he is harmless.

Fran Crimi
11-05-2006, 11:24 AM
Oh, and one more thing, Mr. Lucky. You know damn well that your Uncle Cisero would have been playing in the IPT events as a Hall of Famer, and he would have been loving it, because finally the players had a chance to make some well-deserved money. That's what he was fighting for all those years. He would have been proud to take a chance. He would have been cautious but excited.

Would you have told him he was stupid to think that way and that he shouldn't play? I think not.

Fran Crimi
11-05-2006, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote maddogvinnie:</font><hr> It is a real mess and it makes me sick to see pool take such a hit. So sad. If I was a player I would take the money and run and then try and get my old day job back. Life will continue and the sun will come up in the morning. We are just back where we were before and some will see this once the anger cools off. <hr /></blockquote>


That about sums it up, Vinnie. And thanks for the heads-up.

Fran

marek
11-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Fran, there are people I like and those I dont. Those I like I keep close to my heart and those I dont like I try to avoid. There are few mottos I try to live by and here is one: "One can be offended only by someone of his/her level or higher." From the moment I had started to keep that on my mind my live became much nicer. You may try this approach, I think you dont have to apologize yourself at all to anybody here! The only judge who you are responsible to is the mirror and I feel you can look into the eyes of that person in there quite easily... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran Crimi
11-05-2006, 12:59 PM
Thanks, Marek! I appreciate your words a lot. You make sense.

Cisero was my good friend. Sometimes we bend a little more because of respect for our friends.

Okay, enough bending. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks,
Fran

maddogvinnie
11-05-2006, 04:01 PM
Yes he was the first and the greatest black player of all time. A true champion. Like they said in the color of money, most of the bros never left the hood which was why there were not more. The greatest disappointment I ever saw was Mark Tadd who I saw as the next black Earl when he came on in the early 90's. All he wanted to do was gamble in the back rooms and then get rich on poker. No heart, no integrity, just a pool bum with talent. Nicklaus in golf only cared about the major victories knowing money and fame followed them. Tadd never got that message. He let his race down for his personal fun. What a bum.

MrLucky
11-05-2006, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote maddogvinnie:</font><hr> Yes he was the first and the greatest black player of all time. A true champion. Like they said in the color of money, most of the bros never left the hood which was why there were not more. The greatest disappointment I ever saw was Mark Tadd who I saw as the next black Earl when he came on in the early 90's. All he wanted to do was gamble in the back rooms and then get rich on poker. No heart, no integrity, just a pool bum with talent. Nicklaus in golf only cared about the major victories knowing money and fame followed them. Tadd never got that message. He let his race down for his personal fun. What a bum. <hr /></blockquote> MR Mad Dog that was the most racist statement I have heard! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I do not know Mr Tadd but for you to say he let his race down is really insulting Mr Mad Dog or should I call you by your real name LARRY?

MrLucky
11-05-2006, 07:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> What the heck is wrong with you? Why do you keep trying to make it look like I'm on the IPT bandwagon? What have I done to you other than memoralize your Uncle Cisero in BD? And by the way, one of the few people who did. Why not go after those who didn't care a hoot about him? Huh? I thought he was a great man and I had the guts to speak up about him. Did you go to his funeral? I did. Use your head, man. What kind of person do you think I am if I cared enough about Cisero as a person and a player to go through all that trouble on his behalf? Do you think I'm the type of person to believe anything that a promoter says who suddenly comes along? No, I proceed with caution but I don't condemn until there is sufficient evidence.

Where are all your earlier posts here warning everyone about the IPT? I don't see one. Stop chasing me around and going after me like some bully just because I want to remain objective. What do you want, my lunch money? I'm staying objective. Get over it. <hr /></blockquote>

Ms Crimi ! you should probably reread my last post then apologize first for going off on me when I clearly said we agree!!!1 then for bringing my deceased Uncle up in your tantrum ! He was not in this discussion and you have no right bringing his name into it! Second Mr Mad Dog otherwise known as the renown jerk Larry or FL as you might know him is just stirring the waters ! So take a deep breathe and try reading what I said ! then perhaps try figuring out what the hell is wrong with yourself! Peace to ya ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

maddogvinnie
11-05-2006, 07:58 PM
The question here is what is wrong with you Mr. Lucky, why do you keep going off on respected teachers of the game. Who are you any way to attack these legends. You are just s simple league player who has some distanct relation to some body you barely knew and you are trying to run a con on that trying to build your self up by saying my uncle told me this and that when he did not tell you squat dude. You dont know squat dude. You did not save his bushka when he had to sell it, you did not help him when he was in financial distress, You did not help him when he was ill, you did not even attend his funeral, but you now try and sell us that he had taught you everything even though you were thousands of miles from him.

He probably showed up once a year to bounce you on his knee at Xmas because he had no other place to go at Xmas cause all the pool halls were closed for the day. The only tips you got from him was please dont sit on my pecker kid.

your con stinks, you stink you need to go to work for the IpT, they could use a good man like you.

FL, is that somebody in Florida ?

Does the truth sting like the bitch or what, as we say in New Joy Zee.

Dey dont call me mad dog for nutttin.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

maddogvinnie
11-05-2006, 08:16 PM
Mr. lucky, you said:

MR Mad Dog that was the most racist statement I have heard! I do not know Mr Tadd but for you to say he let his race down is really insulting Mr Mad Dog or should I call you by your real name LARRY?

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((***))))))))))))))))) )))
Let me respond to that dear sir:
Would the fact that you are black, and Tadd is black have anthing thing to do with you defending some bum that is black you admit you know nothing about. If he was yellow you would not be jumping in here at all. Dude, he is a bum, period, black, white or red or yellow, a bum is a bum, there is zero racitst connation to this, just a fact. The fact you go off on this, tells me you sir are a black racist who does not like white people, all I see you do is go off on white people on the forums. I dont see any white people attacking you but I see you attacking white people on 3 different forms every day. You sir have the attitude problem. You sir are a definite racist. Were you in the black panthers and follow Malcom X? That is the black KKK you know.

Show me a single place where you have ever gone off on a black person. Racist people like you are the first to toss the racist card every time.

Mark Tadd had the talent to be a world champion like Murphy, he played just like Earl with the same speed. He could have been the Tiger Woods of pool and should have. Tiger woods became a great credit to his black and asian races and moved golf into a higher level that made him and thosuand of others rich beyond their wildes dreams. There is a black man who is a winner and a credit to his race. Tadd is a bum and a discredit to his race.

Tadd let his race down because he was a gambling no count bum. What a waste. I do not apologize for giving you a history lesson you know nothing about. Dude, I am just the messenger here, do not shoot your messengers, or you will never learn nuttin.

Dey dont call me mad dog for nuttin.

I lay it out real simple to understand, new joy zee style.



/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cuetangclan
11-06-2006, 02:37 AM
Wow!

It's amazing what comes out of peoples keyboards when they get so worked up. The imminant failure of something that promised so much, the IPT, has provoked such angry responses from people who on prior reading seemed to be so nice, and helpful to all that take an interest in pool!

I'm from Melbourne Australia. Over here a group of us took an interest in the IPT because a friend of ours earned a spot on the tour , and played at the world eight ball championship event. He did ok, came in around 140. Not his best effort but for his first comp playing BCA rules it wasn't to bad. He was promised travel expenses and won about $7500. None of which, to this date he has recieved.

I cannot speak with any real authority about anyone on this board, however, feel I must point a few things out. I HAVEN'T READ ANY ARGUMENT THAT WAS WRONG. Intuition and past behaviour are important indicators to the character of a person. If the way they "talk" dosen't sound right coupled with a past that show's a pattern of dodgy behaviour finacially. It should prick up your ears and make you pay attention.

However, without any publically available "solid" evidence, you cannot be entirely sure of the real circumstances behind the failure of this organization, the IPT, to pay its players at the agreed time etc.

But guys, remember. We're all here on this board because we like pushing around balls with leather tipped sticks. Some better, some worse. Some shoot balls with the precision of an engineer, and some who like the chaos and just smack 'em around until something drops.

This argument isn't about who was right or, who said what to whom. It's about our collective disapointment that something that promised so much has seemingly crashed and burnt so quickly.

With respect to you all,
Josh

Rich R.
11-06-2006, 04:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote maddogvinnie:</font><hr> Let me respond to that dear sir:
Would the fact that you are black, and Tadd is black have anthing thing to do with you defending some bum that is black you admit you know nothing about. If he was yellow you would not be jumping in here at all. Dude, he is a bum, period, black, white or red or yellow, a bum is a bum, there is zero racitst connation to this, just a fact. The fact you go off on this, tells me you sir are a black racist who does not like white people, all I see you do is go off on white people on the forums. I dont see any white people attacking you but I see you attacking white people on 3 different forms every day. You sir have the attitude problem. You sir are a definite racist. Were you in the black panthers and follow Malcom X? That is the black KKK you know.

Show me a single place where you have ever gone off on a black person. Racist people like you are the first to toss the racist card every time.

Mark Tadd had the talent to be a world champion like Murphy, he played just like Earl with the same speed. He could have been the Tiger Woods of pool and should have. Tiger woods became a great credit to his black and asian races and moved golf into a higher level that made him and thosuand of others rich beyond their wildes dreams. There is a black man who is a winner and a credit to his race. Tadd is a bum and a discredit to his race.

Tadd let his race down because he was a gambling no count bum. What a waste. I do not apologize for giving you a history lesson you know nothing about. Dude, I am just the messenger here, do not shoot your messengers, or you will never learn nuttin.

Dey dont call me mad dog for nuttin.

I lay it out real simple to understand, new joy zee style.
<hr /></blockquote>
Larry, Mark Tadd still plays and, in fact, is a member of another forum.
You better be careful, or he may be the next one knocking you on your butt, when you least expect it.

Qtec
11-06-2006, 04:49 AM
Fran, KT said that all the prize money was guaranteed by an International Accountant firm.
He said he was committed to a 2 year tour, whatever happened because money was not a problem. All lies.
Most recently he was accepting money from Qs when he knew that the tournament was not even going to happen.
Whatever happens Kt will at least break even. MS will have made 300 grand and a lot of others will have lost money.
The guy [ KT] said once to an AZ posters- with others present- that he had run 200 balls and MS[ suppossedly] agreed! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
If he can do that, he should be playing! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec

MrLucky
11-06-2006, 04:55 AM
Larry I already told you on Inside Pool to lay off my uncle ! I even told you and will reiterate once more ! I have nothing more to say to you! if you wish to resolve your unwarranted angst please come to Mr Cues any Sunday and handle your demons like a man <font color="red">(and trust this ! I really look forward to that! although a gutless liar like yourself unfortunately will never face up to your target!) </font color> ! otherwise find someone else to play with since I am not your usual target ! Please do not forget I know where you are ! I do not make threats. this is a warning! and the last one you will hear from me. You run around the internet stalking anyone who speaks against your shameless lies and boast, until you are banned as you have been here and on any other respectable forum! then you make up these idiotic pseudonym's trying to continue your mindless and ignorant attacks ! Perhaps those as dumb as you are misled and confused by your tactics but I'm not! so consider your Mad Dog made up persona warned! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

<font color="green"> </font color>

MrLucky
11-06-2006, 05:03 AM
<font color="green"> Thanks for your clarity of thought ! although you are wasting your time speaking logically with Fast Larry ! He has been stalking folks for a long time and sadly getting away with it ! though usually he has been smart enough to do it to people that have no recourse ! In this case he has picked on someone ready able and LOL! close enough to handle his problem! He is known throughout the pool world as a shameless liar and boaster who tries to denigrate anyone who disagrees with his post! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

MrLucky
11-06-2006, 05:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Thanks, Marek! I appreciate your words a lot. You make sense.

Cisero was my good friend. Sometimes we bend a little more because of respect for our friends.

Okay, enough bending. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks,
Fran


<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green">Just a few thoughts Fran... 1) I understand your over reaction to our disagreement regarding Mr Trudeau to a certain point but bringing my deceased Uncle into it was and is way over the line ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif
2) your statements regarding what I may have or may not have done is way out of line! you do not know anything about the events surrounding my support or attandence in these matters and frankly I am surprised that you would stoop that low to try and bring it into a conversation we are having about a entirely unrelated subject ! I have been on and off this site for years and I really had / would hope to resume having a much higher regard for your integrity than that.
3) If you visit Inside Pool Forums and read some of the Fast Larry Post you will see very clearly who you have been agreeing with on this subject (look at the wording and spellings and it will be very ! in fact crystal clear! I sincerely hope you are a better person than to align yourself with scum like him! regardless of any disagreement / misunderstanding that you have with our views on Kevin Trudeau! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

link to some of his same rants and accusations .... web page (http://www.insidepoolmag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hello! heres another also! Dennis has deleted most of his similar rants about Cis! web page (http://www.insidepoolmag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430&amp;page=3)

Fran Crimi
11-06-2006, 07:51 AM
Nope. It sure doesn't sound good. I'm sure the players' lawyers are going over all that stuff right now.

Fran

maddogvinnie
11-06-2006, 08:56 AM
Lucky, go take a pill, when you threaten people, it tells people what kind of a guy you really are. You dont like being exposed do you?

Fran Crimi
11-06-2006, 09:24 AM
Your words ring very true, Josh. First, I'm sorry to hear of your friend's misfortune. The truth of the matter is that we all knew about Trudeau's reputation going into this. Whatever our instincts told us, and whether or not we were suspicious, we still hoped for the best.

Unfortunatly, though, there are some who wanted this venture to fail out of vindictiveness. There's no denying that either. Players need to be cautious about people shouting "I told you so, now do what I tell you." They could wind up from the frying pan right into the fire if they're not careful.

One would have to be pretty stupid to think that this was going to be a risk-free situation. Nobody just shows up out of nowhere and starts handing out millions of dollars to pool players. My instincts, as well as I'm sure hundreds of other people's, told me that KT must have some kind of master plan. There has to be, because he can't be that stupid.

Turns out that the master plan was online betting. Okay. Not the most reputable of things, but at least it's out in the open and it makes sense.

For me, his words and promises meant nothing. I realize that they did mean things to other players, but from my perspective, if I were in the IPT, I would have paid them no mind. I've heard words and promises by many before KT. Maybe some of his words and promises will come back to haunt him in court. It depends. The real meat and potatoes of the operation is what he promised on paper and how he managed the money.

I as well as other people, don't enjoy being harassed by people who disagree with me. Speak your peace and let it go. Let's all act like adults here.

Thanks for your comments and I wish your friend the best of luck in collecting his money.

Fran

maddogvinnie
11-06-2006, 10:43 AM
Who was it who said, there is a sucker born every minute:

I wonder how many here will get the answer right on this one:




OK, you said it was who?


Are you sure, is that your final answer????????????????



http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

071838
11-06-2006, 12:33 PM
I think he was being EXTREMELY naive, Fran, if he thought he could make that venture profitable on this continent; either that or he swallowed a bill of goods from others on the matter. But either way, that's a terrible blunder for an established expert marketer. The American perception of pool isn't much different from the way table tennis is perceived (and that sport has full medal status in the Olympics and no stigma whatsoever): this country doesn't want to spectate either one, and really hasn't since the days of Greenleaf.
Hard to believe that KT couldn't see that, or make use of his considerable resources to do his "due diligence" before he took this plunge. Not to worry for him, though; he's still flashing his Rolex and bragging how a new insurance plan is going to make him even more millions. My heart goes out to the players. GF

maddogvinnie
11-06-2006, 01:19 PM
Lucky, you are lucky you did not blow a fuse dude with all that rantin N ravin, foam dribbling out of your mouth. They call me the mad dog, sounds like we need to swap names. Dude, go take some pills and call me in the morning. And explain to me, why we have to call you mister?
yEAH yEAH, your somebody all right. Just leave the teaching here to Frannie, she knows what she is doing.

Deeman3
11-06-2006, 01:53 PM
You, Sir, are an idiot of the first order.

DeeMan

nAz
11-06-2006, 02:09 PM
One thing that we have not mentioned here and that is how great the WPA looks right now. Remember how they wanted to ban players who played in an event that was not section by them ie ITP for up to a year?
wonder if they will try to put a strangle hold on player in the aftermath of this ITP mess. like forcing them to sign a contract with them to only play in their sanction events.


KT about a year ago
QUESTION:
Why didn't you get sanctioned by any of the governing bodies of pool?

Answer:
There is no such thing as a governing body of pool. The last time I checked there was act of congress or law passed anywhere in the world that gave any organization or group of people the right to control the sport of pool. There is no law stated anywhere that any individual organization has the right to tell me what I can and can’t do with my money or investments relating to pool. I am not a big believer in associations or organizations. I believe they are parasitical organizations that suck off the production of others. As I stated before, if there is a pool organization in the world that claims to be in operation for the betterment of the sport, the only way you can determine whether they have succeeded or not is to ask the simple question: Last year, what did the top pool player in the world earn, and what did the 30th top guy earn? If you can’t have 30 players in the world that are earning over $300,000 or $400,000 a year, then you have failed miserably at creating an environment where pool players can earn a decent living. Therefore, there is no organization that qualifies to come up to me, put a gun to my head, and demand money out of my pocket.
there was a lot more to the interview but i won't bore you with the rest.


Looks like he is a good reason the sports need a legitimate sanctioning body that actually has some teeth to it, not the UPA btw.

maddogvinnie
11-06-2006, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> You, Sir, are an idiot of the first order.

DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>


Why that was not nice to say that about lucky bucky. Just because his sign off has idiot in it, does not make him one.
don't hurt his fellings like that?

I bet he is a lot smarter dan dee average NYC bear boo boo.


/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
11-06-2006, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 071838:</font><hr> I think he was being EXTREMELY naive, Fran, if he thought he could make that venture profitable on this continent; either that or he swallowed a bill of goods from others on the matter. But either way, that's a terrible blunder for an established expert marketer. The American perception of pool isn't much different from the way table tennis is perceived (and that sport has full medal status in the Olympics and no stigma whatsoever): this country doesn't want to spectate either one, and really hasn't since the days of Greenleaf.
Hard to believe that KT couldn't see that, or make use of his considerable resources to do his "due diligence" before he took this plunge. Not to worry for him, though; he's still flashing his Rolex and bragging how a new insurance plan is going to make him even more millions. My heart goes out to the players. GF <hr /></blockquote>

Could be, George. That online betting thing, though, makes a lot of sense to me. I think he could have made a fortune with that.

Fran

MrLucky
11-06-2006, 03:30 PM
<font color="red">Well Larry you are so dumb I made you expose yourself! LOL!

post today from inside pool forum ... </font color>

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky
So really FL aka Mad Dog Vinnie! LMAO!

just how old are you?


You have to be at least what? 72 ????

I began play during WWII, I am celebrating my diamond jubille of playing pool for over 60 years. I am older than dirt dude. I wake up pisseed off, dont mess with old people like me. Now you know why I am a mad dog dude.

I am mad at any body like you who thinks they are a teacher and teaches nothing but bad crap. Teach all you want to here, just teach the right things. You seriously do not know squat. You seriously need to be exposed and shut down. Do you know I go to a lot of inner city YMCA's and boys and girls clubs that are 99% black to spend my time teaching them pool and running chearities to help them. I give them cus, lessons, shows, pool tables, what have you done for them lately? These kids dont know squat. If you want to teach, get the hell out of here and go see your own kind and help them.

I see you on this con tailing the coat tails of some long dead player you barely knew. It all makes me sick. You are wrong on everything. Every thing you know is wrong. Take up checkers dude.
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Last edited by fastlarryguninger : Today at 04:57 AM.

link...

web page (http://www.insidepoolmag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460&amp;page=2) /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Rich R.
11-06-2006, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> One thing that we have not mentioned here and that is how great the WPA looks right now. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm sorry nAz, but the WPA doesn't look too much better to me. It seems like they take in A LOT of money, world wide. Their officers do a lot of globe trotting, but they don't seem to do a lot directly for the players. JMHO.

nAz
11-06-2006, 11:07 PM
hmm but do their sanctioned tourneys pay out what they offer.
ya they may not be the best but they do look better IPT does right about now.

Rich R.
11-07-2006, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> hmm but do their sanctioned tourneys pay out what they offer.
ya they may not be the best but they do look better IPT does right about now. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, their sanctioned tourneys pay out what they offer, but that money is coming from the promoters, not the WPA. I may be wrong, but the promoters would be paying out that money, with or without the WPA.

I would just like to no more about what the WPA does with the money they take in. I could be totally off base, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I would like to see someone look into their books.

071838
11-07-2006, 07:57 AM
Yes, but again, not on this continent (ESPECIALLY with the new ban, or partial ban, on online gambling). That plan does make great sense for Asia, particularly if they front-load the field with lots of Asian players, so the sale he spoke of was perfectly logical - but not at that lunatic price. (He couldn't get 1% of that number over here.) The two biggest whoppers he's told so far, in my opinion, are the $160 million figure and to lay the blame originally on Federal Express. Not only is the latter an extremely reliable vendor, but a check pad holding 150 to 200 checks fits neatly into a briefcase. He didn't need Federal Express any more than he needed Pony Express. GF

Deeman3
11-07-2006, 08:14 AM
Inside pool looks like a shrine to ITP this month. This is such a shame for all the players and it has to be hard for them to read all these glitzy articles without getting sick.

DeeMan

Fran Crimi
11-07-2006, 08:30 AM
You are right. That's a good point because the whole idea of a sanctioning body is to make sure the players are going to get paid and that they're treated fairly. Sometimes that requires the promoter putting the money either in escrow or in the account of the sanctioning body.

BUT, and there's a big 'but' here...there was simply too much money involved for what we're used to in pool. There was no way the players were not going to play if the sanctioning body couldn't come to an agreement with the promoter, and that's just what happened. No sanctioning body in pool is strong enough to keep the players away from going after that kind of money. Frankly, can you blame the players? After decades of oppression they finally catch a break. Not even the WPBA could stop their players from playing. Can you imagine if they tried? They would have a major revolt on their hands. All the major organizations were pretty much helpless and all they could do was watch and hope. The money was just too big.

Fran

Fran Crimi
11-07-2006, 08:57 AM
Very true, George. I was willing to let the FedEx thing slide because people do stall for many reasons, not all of them disasterous. But the 160 mil is tough to swallow. Here's another one for your consideration: He never asked the players to sign a non-compete agreement. How do you sell a tour for all that money without having control of the players?

Why would Ho have to buy the IPT from KT when HO could easily start his own tour, since the players were not contractually bound to the IPT? Maybe there's an explanation for that, but I don't have one at this point.

How much were the players paid to date, George? 3 Million, 4 million, 5 million? That's a lot of money.

Was all this talk about a sale to Ho all a coverup for a his gross underestimation of the industry? Could he actually be that dumb?

Lots of questions.


Fran

Rich R.
11-07-2006, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Inside pool looks like a shrine to ITP this month. This is such a shame for all the players and it has to be hard for them to read all these glitzy articles without getting sick. <hr /></blockquote>I just received mine and I have only glanced at some of the articles, including those about the IPT. After reading some of the quotes, from KT, they are really ironic, considering current events. It is like a total about face on some of the issues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

MrLucky
11-07-2006, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Inside pool looks like a shrine to ITP this month. This is such a shame for all the players and it has to be hard for them to read all these glitzy articles without getting sick. <hr /></blockquote>I just received mine and I have only glanced at some of the articles, including those about the IPT. After reading some of the quotes, from KT, they are really ironic, considering current events. It is like a total about face on some of the issues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">I thought the same thing he has a big set on him! To say some of the things he did is really gutsy! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
<font color="blue"> as another poster alluded the players have to also look at their own willingness to throw caution to the wind when they were faced with such immense profit potential as KT threw at them to lure them in. The classic lure of a scammer is quick and easy unprecedented profits! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

maddogvinnie
11-07-2006, 10:03 AM
Its pretty obvious the tour is gone and the players need to take the money, then kill it off and form a new one, or go back to and build up the existing UPA.

071838
11-07-2006, 12:10 PM
The publisher and editor of Inside Pool both work for the Tour as online correspondents, Dee. Yes, it's probably a conflict of interest, which wouldn't have come up otherwise if they had been able to maintain their journalistic objectivity.

071838
11-11-2006, 08:25 AM
I believe what he overestimated (and grossly), Fran, was America's attitude toward the game. We're nothing more than a pastime or recreation to the masses, something we learned as kids at the local rec. center (just as we learned table tennis there); as adults, it's something you do with your buddies two or three times a year, in between rounds of drinks. And just as Americans aren't especially interested in watching the game, they aren't interested in betting on it either. Besides, how many opportunities for dumping would all that create? GF

wolfdancer
11-11-2006, 11:23 AM
They've been trying for decades now to foster this sport to a mass viewing audience, seemingly forgetting that they can't even fill the seats at the event itself. The retrograde 8-ball,with it's archaic slow cloth, archaic rules, etc was supposed to do the trick...perhaps if they had added the over sized, overweight cue ball, and thrown in some NYC bar rules???
The other failed half of the equation....pool has yet to attract Advertisers from outside the sport, in any great numbers. When I see Earl doing a Lexus ad, then I'll know, the sport has arrived.
In the meantime, it's a great game to play ( what other sport offers a 60's guy a chance to beat the "flat-bellies", as Lee Trevino used to call 'em?)
And for the die hard fans like myself, it's a great sport to watch on TV, DVD, attend an event, or just read about.
It just can't seem to capture the mass viewing audience, like pulling sleds through mud with trucks, or the always exciting Women's Caber toss event at the Scottish rites, games, does.
And finally, while i don't even think the players, let alone the public understood the complicated points system....it opened the door for some collusion between players....and even with the promised big bucks payouts...they were still scamming for the $1000 bonus...
How can a sport become "major league"....when the only event sellouts, are by the players, themselves?