DeLay on torture

[Qtec]

DeLay promotes his vision

BY OLIVIA WINSLOW
Newsday Staff Writer

November 2, 2006

Tom DeLay, the former Republican congressman from Texas and House majority leader who resigned in June under an ethical cloud, came to Long Island yesterday to promote his vision of "moral clarity" that he said should guide Americans' discussion about how to best combat terrorism.

DeLay left Congress under fire after he was indicted in Texas in a campaign finance case, which he dismissed as a "witchhunt."

During several hours at Nassau Community College where he was invited to speak, he attracted about 200 people. During a news conference, DeLay touched on a wide range of topics, including next week's mid-term elections.

DeLay, who is now on the lecture circuit, acknowledged Republican Party difficulties in retaining control of the Congress. He called the upcoming vote "very strange," and said "the mood of the people is hard to gauge.

"The Democrats are incredibly energized," DeLay said in a news conference. "The Republicans are not so energized. They are very disappointed in the leadership of their party." Unlike the Democrats, who "know how they are going to vote and are ready to go vote," DeLay said many Republicans are less certain.

DeLay also spoke of a "moral clarity that needs to be expressed to give the American people some foundation as to why we're doing what we're doing and what principles we should be using to make the decisions in dealing with the war on terror."

DeLay's views on forms of torture came out during an hour-long question and answer session when an audience member brought up Vice President Dick Cheney's seeming support of water boarding, when he suggested dunking someone's head in water might be useful to get a suspected terrorist to talk.

"I don't think water boarding is torture," DeLay said. "My definition of torture is you physically harm someone by cutting them, by cutting their fingers, sticking things in their eyes, sticking their fingers in electric sockets. Water boarding is a frightening experience. But the person does not have physical damage." <font color="blue">........unless they die of course. </font color>
Copyright 2006 Newsday Inc.

<font color="blue"> I think they should waterboard DeLay and ask him the same question again.! </font color>

Q

[Gayle in MD]

Ditto!!! If feeling as thought you are drowning for an extended period of time, being held down, and actually in a state of drowning, up until the last moment, isn't torture, What is? Sure, there are worse forms of torture, but I saw a video of someone they were torturing that way, and I actually threw up, and also cried over what I witnessed. Anyone who would take part in such inhumane treatment, couldn't possibly be a decent human being. And anyone who could approve such treatment, is very very ill, IMO.

Gayle in Md.

[hondo]

You wimpy liberals. If you'd watch 24 once in a while you'd
understand why we need to torture terrorists.
Water torture! Tush! I'd cut off their wee wee.

[Gayle in MD]

I know you're kidding, Hondo, but, my understanding, from just interviews I've heard, is that information gleaned from torture, isn't reliable. Torture cannot be justified, IMO, according to how deserving the recipient might be, but I know it goes on, probably even in our own jails, right here.

This administration refused to take intelligence seriously, when they knew an attack was eminent, even when they were told, the threat is real, it's coming, do something, now! If they're concerned enough about preventing future attacks, you'd think they would have made capturing bin Laden, their first priority, wouldn't you? He is the one designated by our National Security Estimate, as the greatest threat to our country, after all, and the one most likely to organize and lead our future attackers. Or formulated a National Secuirty Policy, that didn't put our country at even greater risk.

The ability to torture, in and of itself, is the hallmark of mental illness. Those who would support it, need to look inside themselves, IMO.

Gayle in Md.

[FatsRedux]

Here's a scenario for you:

You Gayle are POTUS. Q is your man in charge of overseeing all national intelligence assets, Wolfdancer is the head of the National Security Agency, Hondo is your CIA director.

NSA intercepts have revealed a plot which is already in its advanced stages. Three nuclear weapons have been smuggled into the US for use in a terror attack. You have less than 24 hours before millions are killed.

The location of, and targets for the weapons are presently unknown. What is known is that the terrorists are members of a previously unknown Al-Qaeda affiliated group - "The People's Martyrdom and Jihad Brigades". Their leader is Hamzi Al Haffez. Al Haffez and three other senior leaders of PMJB were captured this morning in Saudi Arabia and turned over to CIA personnel. The Saudi raid netted valuable documents that have yielded enough information to allow for succesful disarmament of the bombs--if they can be located.

So far the captives have refused to yield any information whatsoever about the plot or the location of the weapons.

What do you do?

Fats

[Gayle in MD]

Hi Fats,
What I really think about your scenario, is that these people are not going to give, regardless.

Here's the problem, as I see it. Unless you can give such captives some sort of truth serum, (Does such a thing even exist, sodium pentathol? Hypnosis?) They are ready to die before you capture them. Under your scenario, though, anything could be justified, I suppose. The problem I have comes when people do things in secret, with no oversight, and that has been my problem with Bush all along. He's a sneak, and I don't trust him at all, about anything.

We're living under a lot of worry and stress here in our country, no doubt. I don't think it has helped us at all to have a leader who uses that to manipulate us for his own purposes. I don't think having a leader who is dishonest, sneaky, and operates by thumbing his nose at the law, has helped things. I'm sure you've heard, and read, that torture doesn't reveal accurate intelligence. I'm sure that you've read about how we went about taking our prisoners captive, and the kind of people we relied on to point them out to us, or capture them for us. This is one more time, when our country is hooking up with the worst of the worst, to achieve a questionable goal, ... torture. How does supporting torture, make us much different than those who hate us? I wish we could kill every single one of the people who want to destroy us. I just don't like the idea of destroying ourselves, in our efforts to survive them.

As for insuring our safety, closing our borders, and reforming our immigration laws, should be the first step. We all know how the terrorists were able to stay here in our country, illegally. We all know how many opportunities this administration had to take preventive measures in order to thwart the attack we endured. Here we are years later, and our borders are wide open. Our VISA program, completely out of control, with little if any follow up on who is here, and why, and when they are supposed to leave. If we can't oversee who is here, and what they're up to, then we should do away with guests here in our country, until we find ways to accurately oversee immigration, and VISA.

As for torture, it's wrong, period. It's inhumane, and it's repulsive to me personally. Maybe it goes back to my days on my knees, looking at the statures of Jesus, the nails in his feet and hands, the thorns on his head, and the spear gashes in his sides. Regardless of my personal opinions about it though, Bush has brought such debates upon himself when he decided before taking office that he would Occupy Iraq, do as he pleased, without regard to the law, using deciet to manipulate this country, and using fear to dismantle the appropriate checks on his actions. Each of these actions fall beneath the heading of evil. I shudder to think how many innocents may have been tortured under the orders of a man whom I find psychologically so like those evil people who threaten us. Secret prisons, IMO, do not fall in line with what I think my country is supposed to be about, regardless of the threat we face. Secret prisons, and torture, sound an awful lot like Saddam though.

Gayle in Md.

[FatsRedux]

If the first part of my scenario were true we would have never found out about the plot from NSA intercepts because you and the others would have outlawed them. Therefore there would have been no capture of the leaders and ergo..no investigation and no possibility of extracting any information whatsoever. Three American cities would be smoldering radioactive wastelands and millions would be dead.

Fats

[Drop1]

Gale,I think the greatest threat to our country is George Walker Bush,the worst disaster to hit the Western World,since the founding of Christianity./ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stretch]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote FatsRedux:</font><hr> If the first part of my scenario were true we would have never found out about the plot from NSA intercepts because you and the others would have outlawed them. Therefore there would have been no capture of the leaders and ergo..no investigation and no possibility of extracting any information whatsoever. Three American cities would be smoldering radioactive wastelands and millions would be dead.

Fats
<hr /></blockquote>

Isn't it fun arguing hypothetical questions, drawing your own conclusions then useing fear to get what you want? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

[Qtec]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Fats,
What I really think about your scenario, is that these people are not going to give, regardless.
<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, Fats is avoiding the issue. Don't let him distract you.
The question at hand is, can we justify torture?
GW seems to think he can! So does Fats. Whatever happened to the Bill of Human Rights! JFK?

The fact that WE do not TORTURE captives is what SEPARATES us from the savages who can justify beheading and the indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians for their Faith. WE have respect for human life, whatever nationality.
The US boycotted an Olympics in the USSR as a protest about the lack of Liberty in that country. Now GW wants to re-define the Geneva Con and the definition of torture. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Q.

[FatsRedux]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Hi Fats,
What I really think about your scenario, is that these people are not going to give, regardless.
<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, Fats is avoiding the issue. Don't let him distract you.
The question at hand is, can we justify torture?
GW seems to think he can! So does Fats. Whatever happened to the Bill of Human Rights! JFK?

The fact that WE do not TORTURE captives is what SEPARATES us from the savages who can justify beheading and the indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians for their Faith. WE have respect for human life, whatever nationality.
The US boycotted an Olympics in the USSR as a protest about the lack of Liberty in that country. Now GW wants to re-define the Geneva Con and the definition of torture. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Q. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not avoiding anything Q.

And what's all this WE stuff? When did you become a US citizen?

Are you saying that you would trade off the lives of millions in order to preserve an abstract concept of humaneness and morality? Yeah, god forbid you did something to cause pain and suffering to a p.o.s. terrorist even if it means that scores of innocents die, right?

Here's how I would handle it. I would get all three together in one room and ask for the information. If they refused, I'd cut one's ear off, cauterize the wound with a blow torch and then I'd ask again. But, I would also tell them that if the info were not correct three generations of their living blood relatives would be tortured to death in unspeakably horrible ways. We could worry about the moral implications later.

BTW, were you born a wuzz or have you practiced it all your life? Enquiring minds want to know.

Fats Redux

[FatsRedux]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote FatsRedux:</font><hr> If the first part of my scenario were true we would have never found out about the plot from NSA intercepts because you and the others would have outlawed them. Therefore there would have been no capture of the leaders and ergo..no investigation and no possibility of extracting any information whatsoever. Three American cities would be smoldering radioactive wastelands and millions would be dead.

Fats
<hr /></blockquote>

Isn't it fun arguing hypothetical questions, drawing your own conclusions then useing fear to get what you want? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

Fact: Bin Laden sought and received a fatwa authorizing the use of nuclear weapons against the infidels.

Fact: The recently thwarted airliner bombing plot would have involved blowing up 8 aircraft over American cities to cause more deaths and destruction than blowing them up over the ocean.

Fact: We are dealing with religious fanatics willing to do anything to cause death and mayhem.

So in light of the above what do you suggest? Should we give our hypothetical terrorist a hug and a teddy bear? Talk to them nicely and say "pretty please with sugar on it"? Oh, I know! We could throw wads of crisp new hundred dollar bills at them until they agree to talk and give up their ways! Yeah that's the ticket!

Maybe we could have Nancy Pelosi come over and offer to have sex with them! Now that would be real torture! Da horror, da horror! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fats

[Qtec]

Why all the hate Fats?

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that you would trade off the lives of millions in order to preserve an abstract concept of humaneness and morality? Yeah, god forbid you did something to cause pain and suffering to a p.o.s. terrorist even if it means that scores of innocents die, right?

<hr /></blockquote>
Abstract concept? Didn't Stalin say that????

You obviously take your freedom for granted. Don't you know that milions have died over 1,000s of years to give you the freedom's that you have....and you would give it all away because you think its neccessary to protect you?!

Wait till its your uncle/brother/father/mother getting the blowtorch treatment!!!!!

Or you.

If we were all to base our actions according to the worst possible scenario, nobody would step outside the door. Even staying indoors would be dangerous.!

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[eg8r]

[ QUOTE ]
Gayle, Fats is avoiding the issue. Don't let him distract you.
The question at hand is, can we justify torture? <hr /></blockquote> Q, he did not avoid it at all, in fact he is giving Gayle an example in which she might be forced to use torture if she wanted to find the weapons (before they went off). He is trying to get Gayle off her high horse and into a scenario in which her Bushing-bashing session would do no good.

eg8r

[Gayle in MD]

Prove it.

[Gayle in MD]

Fats,
We've already thrown untold billions at them. Our occupation, is the whole problem, and gives terrorists the opportunity to train in Iraqa, get hardened, killing our peopls, and then go to other parts of the world. That is what is happening. Our prison scandals did not help our couse, nor did the way we treated Iraqis, by and large, after we went in there.

I guess what you don't get about me, is that I wouldn't trust any man to run this country, and handle our laws, as he pleases, secretly, and with no oversight. NOBODY!!!! Nor could I ever rely, in such an important circumstance, a man without good judgement, and lackadaisical about insuring his grand adventures, so much so that the rest of the world thinks he's nuts. Na, he can't be the one to make that decision. In fact, no "One" man of powers "Instincts" could be trusted beyond the view of daylight, to all but his followers.

Gayle in Md.

[Gayle in MD]

Not content just to let foreigners - Arabs and Muslims, in particular - hate us, we often seem to go out of our way to speak and act in such a way as to compel them to do so. Consider Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo, the practice of kidnapping and "rendition," our public defense of torture, or the spectacle of American officials fending off peace while urging the further maiming of Lebanon and its people. Catastrophically mistaken policies based on intelligence cooked to fit the policy recipe have combined with the debacle of Iraq reconstruction and the bungled response to Hurricane Katrina to discredit American competence with foreign governments and publics alike. It's hard to find anybody out there who believes we know what we're doing or that we have a sound grasp of our own interests, let alone any understanding or concern for theirs. We have given the terrorists what they cannot have dared dream we would - policies and practices that recruit new terrorists but that leave no space for our friends and former admirers to make their case for us or for our values or policies.

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&amp;backgroundid= 00134

[FatsRedux]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Prove it. <hr /></blockquote>

Prove what? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Gayle in MD]

There was no torture involved in thwarting the highjacking plan in England, period. Also, we were not at the forefront of uncovering that plot. I have no problem with wire taps in the interest of thwarting attacks. I do have a problem in giving that power to George Bush, without the Constitutional Oversight required, particularly when our FISA laws allow him to report on his spying, retroactively. And I further, believe, that unless he has used his wire tapping practices in unlawful ways, against the press, and others who expose his other illegal activities, he would not endeavor to do what he is doing in secret, and without the required oversight. Knowing that he consistantly uses fear, as a means to his power mongering, only convinces me further, that he is not trustworthy, particularly since he is a proven liar.

Gayle in Md. How many innocent people have been tortured? How much did Gitmo, hurt America? Tremendously....