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View Full Version : Cheating and sharking. Same or different?



cycopath
11-09-2006, 02:49 PM
Cheating and sharking, are they one in the same or is there a
difference between the two?

Something happened the other night during league play that got me wondering
about this.

My brother had just lost his match and we were discussing a few things
about the match when he pulls me aside, out of earshot of anyone around
us. He says he thought he witnessed his opponent moving a ball off the
rail with his arm as he was leaned over the table shooting another
ball. I told him it was probably an accident and he should have politely
pointed it out to the guy. I went on to say the guy is a known sharker,
but I didn't think he was a cheater. By sharker I mean he likes to hover
around the table while his opponent shoots and he likes to make
comments about the difficulty of his opponent's shots while on the sideline.
You know the usual stuff some people need to do to make them feel like
they have an edge in the game.

Later that evening I thought about what I'd said about the guy, 'He's a
sharker, but not a cheater.'. Isn't that the same thing, cheating?
Isn't all that stuff the guy does to try and screw up his opponent's game,
cheating? Using unfair tactics to win is cheating, right? Sharking is
using unfair tactics, right?

Am I way off base? What do you think? Should I reclassify the guy as a
cheater?

MrLucky
11-09-2006, 03:39 PM
In my opinion there is a thin line between the two, sharking or getting in someones head is poor sportmanship but not really cheating! IMO! Cheating by moving a balls position or by pocketing a ball on the sly is downright wrong and deserves the Paul Newman type of punishment ala broken fingers ! LOL! just joking but anyone that does this is a weak person and player and one I would steer clear of in the future! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

bsmutz
11-09-2006, 03:55 PM
There are many types of sharking and what one person may consider to be a shark, may be innocuous to someone else. Therfore, I don't think you can necessarily call a sharker a cheater. However, blatant sharking such as moving around while in the line of a shot or some of the stuff Earl does (deliberately trying to upset your opponent) could be considered cheating.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-09-2006, 05:59 PM
Intentionally Sharking your opponent in a tournament match is considered 'unsportsmanlike' conduct and demands a warning and can cost the match on a second offence.

Cheating will get you Disqualified immediately, no warning is needed.

There is a difference IMO.

The only place for Sharking is in a money match with the two opponents doing it to each other or getting it from the rail. Another tactic of sharking is 'woofing' (which I think this character in the subject of this thread is guilty).

Talking while your opponent is 'at the table' is considered unsportmanlike conduct and can be ruled a warning with the next offence being loss of match.

ceebee
11-09-2006, 06:01 PM
Overt cheating is somewhat covered in the rules. Covert cheating is a sportsmanship violation & is also covered in the rules (sometimes).

At any local Pool Room or Bar, covert cheating goes on without restraint. Tournament play is usually monitored more closely.

However you can quit playing at anytime, without violation of any rule, but, if you quit during a game or match, the opponent wins.

I have met & played Pool with very few gentlemen, that resorted to underhanded play. Most all of these situations were enjoyed, no matter whether money was involved or not. 99% of these folks won my respect.

I have met & played Pool with numerous Snakes, that winning is everything for them. Some of these folks may have won a few bucks. None of these Snakes won my respect.

I guess it depends on who & what you want to be.

Fran Crimi
11-09-2006, 09:38 PM
Intentional sharking is cheating. Both sharking and cheating are attempts at influencing the game through unsportsmanlike means. There is no such thing as almost but not quite cheating. If someone is trying to turn the game in his favor through any means other than his shooting at the table, it's cheating.

The only reason refs give sharkers a warning rather than throw them out is because it's sometimes difficult to tell if it's intentional. If it's blatently intentional, that's cheating, and no warning need be given.

Fran

sheesha
11-10-2006, 12:00 PM
I wanted to reply to what you stated about Earl that stuff he does.What are you talking about because when hes playing in the USA you have Americans pulling for foreigners you would never see a foreigner pulling for anyone than his own countryman if played in their country.You have spectators that should be removed or players family members on the sidelines causing disruption .Have you ever seen Earl have people on the sidelines causing his opponent distress.Its called RESPECT and all players deserve it whether you are Efren Reyes,Earl Strickland or a qualifier.Shame on all of you that love to judge.How about all the dumping of matches by the players in Manilla guess who didnt?I am tired of how everyone jumps on Earls case .Lets see mumble to yourself or dump a match which is more sportsmanship like behavior?

sheesha
11-10-2006, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> There are many types of sharking and what one person may consider to be a shark, may be innocuous to someone else. Therfore, I don't think you can necessarily call a sharker a cheater. However, blatant sharking such as moving around while in the line of a shot or some of the stuff Earl does (deliberately trying to upset your opponent) could be considered cheating. <hr /></blockquote>

sheesha
11-10-2006, 12:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> There are many types of sharking and what one person may consider to be a shark, may be innocuous to someone else. Therfore, I don't think you can necessarily call a sharker a cheater. However, blatant sharking such as moving around while in the line of a shot or some of the stuff Earl does (deliberately trying to upset your opponent) could be considered cheating. <hr /></blockquote> You do not know what you are talking about.I suppose it ok for players to dump matches but hey Earl has moved in his chair hes the bad guy

sheesha
11-10-2006, 12:15 PM
Would you say players dumping matches at the World Championships is cheating?I would.

sheesha
11-10-2006, 12:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> There are many types of sharking and what one person may consider to be a shark, may be innocuous to someone else. Therfore, I don't think you can necessarily call a sharker a cheater. However, blatant sharking such as moving around while in the line of a shot or some of the stuff Earl does (deliberately trying to upset your opponent) could be considered cheating. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>Oh you know this for sure do you.Remember you quoted as though you are sure that this is what he does.I would say you are a fool,anyone that pretends to know what someone is doing or speculates is a fool.Since you know so much this must be what you do.Please do not quote people or judge unless you know what you are talking about.You know nothing of what you say.Shame on you.

SpiderMan
11-10-2006, 01:45 PM
I call "sharking" cheating if done with intent to disrupt the opponent. Some players shark unintentionally, perhaps because they are unaware of proper etiquette. Others have no such excuse, and should be penalized on first offense.

SpiderMan

sheesha
11-10-2006, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I call "sharking" cheating if done with intent to disrupt the opponent. Some players shark unintentionally, perhaps because they are unaware of proper etiquette. Others have no such excuse, and should be penalized on first offense.Let me see if I have this right so its okay for a player to have family and friends there around the match and causing disruption to the opponent but the moment the opponent expresses emotion then he should be fined.You see you have to know the situation before you open your mouth.I am tired of hearing comments about Earl acting out on his on behalf.If you want to post something then post about what you know are the facts and unless you are there or know the circumstances then you are the fool not the one that you condemn.Earl does not go to tournaments so he can be upset,people set him up as they know what will bother him and get him started .Earl is a very kind hearted and God fearing man and he respects those that show him respect.
If the spectators treated Efren the way they do Earl how would he play and would he win?

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

mantis
11-10-2006, 02:49 PM
Sheesha,
I do not know if Earl does what he does on purpose or not. I do however, believe that he sometimes behaves with very poor sportsmanship. I have seen him mumble and make innapropriate faces when he is losing, and gloat when he is winning as he did during the Mosconi cup with his ridiculous hip wiggle after the final two shots in the final match. I certainly do not mean to take away from his talent as a pool player, or speak to the type of person that he is away from the cameras and pool table, but his behavioron camera can at times be poor. He has himself created this reputation, and has backed it up at the current tournament. As a pro player, and a professional, he needs to be able to block out the actions of the crowd and play his game. Many other pros are able to do this. I have seen him refuse to shake a players hand after he has lost, while the other player did nothing wrong. He may leave the pool table and regret those actions once he has calmed down, but his on camera antics have created this rep for him.

bsmutz
11-10-2006, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> Oh you know this for sure do you.Remember you quoted as though you are sure that this is what he does.I would say you are a fool,anyone that pretends to know what someone is doing or speculates is a fool.Since you know so much this must be what you do.Please do not quote people or judge unless you know what you are talking about.You know nothing of what you say.Shame on you. <hr /></blockquote>
Look, idiot boy, I don't know what your problem is, but you better back off. I didn't quote anyone. What I was talking about in my post is stuff that I have seen Earl do in videos taken of him at matches. I am talking about the way he jumped on Nick Vandenberg and his friends/family at the IPT tournament, the way he threw his stick on the ground and threatened to hit his opponent in the recent WPC event, and the way he slapped the cue ball with his cue when it was about to scratch in the Color of Money final with Efren. If that's not sharking behavior, then I don't know what sharking is. As far as you calling me a fool and telling me I knowing nothing of what I say, you can stick that where the sun doesn't shine. Perhaps you should learn how to post, #1, and #2 take some lessons on how to interact/communicate with others in a logical and positive manner. Then go look up the word "quote" and figure out what it means.

sheesha
11-10-2006, 06:46 PM
You proved my point.You dont have a clue as to what you say.And such language .Just what I thought a man with no class.You know what they say those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.As by your tone you seem to get off pointing the finger.As far as players dumping matches its well known and the American players hate it.As far as the Nick match were you there ?Do you know what happened or what was said to Earl by Nicks friends?I didnt think so.So you are just one of those people that likes to hear themself talk.How many times have you performed of thousands of people and or on tv,how would you hold up under pressure can you run 11 racks in a row for a million?I doubt it.Can you win 5 US Opens?I doubt it.I am tired of hearing people talk about Earl.You go to work and have people clap when you lose a client or have people pull against you to do badly and at the end of the week go home without a paycheck,try it sometime and see how you react.

sheesha
11-10-2006, 07:51 PM
May I ask whose hand did he not shake? I went to almost every pro tournament for 15 years and over 30 countries and I dont remember him not shaking anyones hand .Eveyone needs to quit pointing at Earl and look at whats happening with the players dumping matches this is wrong and not to far off from being any better than what KT has done to the players.I would post the list of players doimg this however they know who they are and boy would everyone be shocked at that list.Clue none of which are American.

Stretch
11-10-2006, 08:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> May I ask whose hand did he not shake? I went to almost every pro tournament for 15 years and over 30 countries and I dont remember him not shaking anyones hand .Eveyone needs to quit pointing at Earl and look at whats happening with the players dumping matches this is wrong and not to far off from being any better than what KT has done to the players.I would post the list of players doimg this however they know who they are and boy would everyone be shocked at that list.Clue none of which are American. <hr /></blockquote>

Please tell me why they were dumping matches. St.

mantis
11-10-2006, 09:27 PM
I honestly don't remember who he was playing when he did not want to shake after the match. I do remember the Mosconi cup that he did the ridiculous hip wiggle with his last 2 winning shots. Also, whether or not people are dumping matches as you have told us over and over again, there is a way to handle and a way not to habdle it. Obviously everyone here feels he is handling it the wrong way. Acting like a spoiled brat in front of the cameras is not the way to go about it. Were people saying things to him during a match? He can have them removed by the official. Besides, be professional and just IGNORE them. Hecklers are in every sport, but not every athlete behaves poorly because of them. I find it interesting that with all the americans hating the "dumping" of matches, it is only Earl that makes it so obvious that he hates it. He has exceptional talent, that cannot be denied, but somehow, you ar ethe only one denying that he has poor sportsmanship. You defend him like you are his wife or something. People only root against him because of his poor sportsmanship and self centered views. I saw him interviewed on tv once before a match where he said the reason he was there, was because he wanted increased tv exposure, since he was no longer a household name. That may be true of a lot of players, but it is usually not what you during an interview. Somehow, I was not surprised by the comment. It appears that you will have to agree to disagree on this one with others.

bsmutz
11-10-2006, 09:55 PM
There is no justification, in my opinion, for the way Earl acts, period. There are plenty of other people in the same situation he is and I don't see them acting that way. He chooses to live his life the way he does. Nobody is forcing him to play pool for a living. I have deep respect for his ability and like to watch him play when he is conducting himself in a reasonable manner. If he has gripes with the equipment, people dumping matches, whatever, he should address it the right way in the right forum. Taking his anger/frustration out on his opponent or the audience seems to me like attacking the mailman for bringing you a bill that you don't think you owe. Did the players who were dumping matches quit doing that after they saw how much it upset Earl?

sheesha
11-11-2006, 05:37 AM
So what Earl wears his emotions on his sleeve.If the Americans can travel to another country and are booed and spectators are allowed to harrass and yell miss while they are playing after spending 3000.00 to travel to the event,why is this ok?Ask Jeremy Jones how he felt people yelling out miss,miss while he was playing in Manilla.The Americans were not treated with respect and it was allowed.However when the foreign players come here the Americans create an atmosphere and pulling for them over an American.Where is the reasoning in that?Its not done that way in other countries they pull for there own countrymen and we just give them the ease of it all.It appears that yes Earl does show his emotions more so perhaps because he is the largest target they know that they can get to him.I believe you will see a huge difference in Earl in the future.How is it that no headline news of Efrens losing made no headlines you really had to search for it,but every move Earl made was a 3 page headline issue.Respect is a 2 way street and Earl gives a great deal of respect to those that show the same to him.Johnny Archer and alot of the other top players are great friends of Earls.The American players are not geing shown the respect that they deserve and my God when an American is playing a foreign player in the USA the Americans are suppose to pull for their American player.It would be no other way or without questions in the other countries.

sheesha
11-11-2006, 05:48 AM
The dumping of matches was so bad on the IPT tour that they had to stop posting the drawls until the last minute.It was well known in Manilla by not just the players but the officals,this is cheating to all and unfair to the players that are not involving themselves in it and widespread among the foreign players.So go ahead those of you that put them on a pedestal root them on and treat them with the greatest of respect but remember they could or could not be throwing a match.Its sad but true and unfair to the American players but hey whats wrong with cheating when you walk away with money in your pocket?Answer EVERYTHING its wrong and needs to be stopped.Hey the Americans did not post their worse finish in history for a reason.

Deeman3
11-11-2006, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> The dumping of matches was so bad on the IPT tour that they had to stop posting the drawls until the last minute.It was well known in Manilla by not just the players but the officals,this is cheating to all and unfair to the players that are not involving themselves in it and widespread among the foreign players.So go ahead those of you that put them on a pedestal root them on and treat them with the greatest of respect but remember they could or could not be throwing a match.Its sad but true and unfair to the American players but hey whats wrong with cheating when you walk away with money in your pocket?Answer EVERYTHING its wrong and needs to be stopped.Hey the Americans did not post their worse finish in history for a reason. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> The Americans posted their worst results in years because we no longer play better than the rest of the world. You do not have to go to another country to see this. In America, where we are not booed, we still are being out performed by players from Asia and Europe. American players don't need you making excuses for them, they must raise their level of play to compete, not their level of misbehaviour.

Please give me an example of how possible thrown matches in IPT events prevented Americans from advancing across the board.....</font color>

DeeMan

sheesha
11-11-2006, 07:26 AM
You must be kidding yourself.Efren is treated like royalty over any American while playing in the USA events.Its not the players that need to raise their level of skills but fans like you need to raise your loyalty.

sheesha
11-11-2006, 07:36 AM
Do you know what dumping is?Of course when matches are thrown it effects the outcome.When you dump a match in your group you are setting up the outcome.The famous Steve Davis was involved and so was Francisco in dumping matches in Manilla and the list goes on and on.It sets up the outcome.Come on its cheating and I sure hope you are not defending this or saying anything against the American players that would suggest that they are being beat because they are not as good or top of their game.Its cheating pure and simple.The Americans need to ban together and find a way to put a stop to it.Stop trying to defend the ones cheating.How sad.

Billy_Bob
11-11-2006, 09:12 AM
Some people win by practicing, hard work, and skill.

Others attempt to win by sharking or cheating in some way. It is the same thing. They are trying to get their opponent to play worse than their best game, move a ball to a better position when no one is looking, or violate the rules in some way.

So if a sharker/cheater wins, did they *really* win the game? I don't think so.

If I cheated or sharked and won, I would know deep down that I did not really win.

But these people do not bother me. I spend time practicing, they devote their time to learning how to cheat. Practice and hard work beats out cheating every time in the long run. I see someone sharking me, I know I will usually win.

Vagabond
11-11-2006, 10:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> Cheating and sharking, are they one in the same or is there a
difference between the two?

Hi,

I do not see any difference.
cheating can be done different ways and sharking is ONE FORM of cheating
OR
One can say that sharking is one of the ways of cheating.
Sharking is illegal
Cheating is illegal
U will find dime a dozen of cheaters in pool every town u go.Methods to punish the cheaters are very limitted. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Snapshot9
11-11-2006, 10:33 AM
Cheating is something physically done at the table to make the outcome come out in the favor of the cheater. (or cheater's partners).

Sharking is unsportsmenlike conduct in an attempt to gain a mental edge over your opponent, or to affect your opponent into making a mistake they would not otherwise make.

BUT, sometimes people are accused of sharking when they might just have little personal unconscious habits that are interpreted as sharking, or sometimes players just get mad, and express their emotions or slam something down. You can't call everything sharking because it isn't. The deciphering difference is intent, and the only way you can call that one is by knowing what your opponent is like before you play them and their habits, and to know the situation. Some people blame themselves for their mistakes, other people blame everything else but themselves.

Some players see nothing but the table when they play, others hear everything around them, which usually means they are feeling pressured.

Telling the difference between what's natural for an opponent, and what isn't can be very very touchy, so be sure before accusing someone of sharking or cheating.

As far as Earl, he has changed over the years, but you have to realize, he is no longer on top (where he perched for many years), he is getting older, he doesn't feel in control
of his Pool life anymore, and maybe other areas too. Maybe he is angry about it, and it comes out when he loses ... stranger things have happened. (I still love to watch him play though - he creates poetry with those balls).

PoolSharkAllen
11-11-2006, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> Do you know what dumping is?Of course when matches are thrown it effects the outcome.When you dump a match in your group you are setting up the outcome.The famous Steve Davis was involved and so was Francisco in dumping matches in Manilla and the list goes on and on.It sets up the outcome.Come on its cheating and I sure hope you are not defending this or saying anything against the American players that would suggest that they are being beat because they are not as good or top of their game.Its cheating pure and simple.The Americans need to ban together and find a way to put a stop to it.Stop trying to defend the ones cheating.How sad. <hr /></blockquote>
Sheesha,
There's no question that dumping matches is cheating. However, given the gravity of your charges about dumping, can you prove that Steve Davis, Francisco and other players were involved in dumping their matches?

sheesha
11-11-2006, 12:34 PM
Yes,I can prove it and I am currently putting together the players names and the proof and submitting it to the officials of the tournament.As far as what happened on the IPT tour where it started to become more agressive until and if the IPT is still to produce events I will not be proving them with what has or had happened there.I do however plan to make sure that it is known and what can be done about it.

Chopstick
11-13-2006, 05:57 AM
I really don't understand what all of the disscussion is about. Whether it is cheating, sharking, tournament play, money game, first offense or not does not matter. It is clearly defined as a foul in the general rules of pocket billiards.

3.41 INTERFERENCE

If the non-shooting player distracts his opponent or interferes with his play, he has fouled. If a player shoots out of turn, or moves any ball except during his inning, it is considered to be interference.



<font color="blue">There is one time I made an exception to this rule. I was playin' a girl one time who would park her clevage right over the pocket while I was shooting. I certainly wouldn't call that a foul. But under under the rules of golf, agreement to suspend or not obey a known rule is a one stroke penalty. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Deeman3
11-13-2006, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> You must be kidding yourself.Efren is treated like royalty over any American while playing in the USA events.Its not the players that need to raise their level of skills but fans like you need to raise your loyalty. <hr /></blockquote>

Sheeshe,

While I appreciate your blind loyalty to American players, it is clear you have no knowledge, despite 15 years of going all over the world seeing tournaments, that dumping, while, not good, has never cost a American a spot if he/she could outshoot the opposition. Raise my level of fan loyalty? I never said I was a fan of U.S. Players. I said they are no longer dominate in the world pool scene. if you beleive that, your medication is stronger than Earl's.

DeeMan

sheesha
11-16-2006, 04:19 AM
If you have 15 foreign players in an event and the drawl is setup and the players determine who is to win and who is not to win is pure cheating plain and simple.These players that cheat in this manner are not true winners.The American players are plain and simple frustrated.And let me tell you I know much more about these players and whats wrong with this sport and have been involved in trying to make it better for the players and true fans of the sport.
You dont have a clue as to what you speak and its people like you and that type of attitude that keep this sport at the level that it is at.Thank you for sticking up for the cheaters of the sport that have to fake their way through an event to post a higher position.How sad

sheesha
11-16-2006, 04:24 AM
To the peeping tom or should I say pervert ,Your post was so sad and just proved you dont have a clue as to what you say,dont quit your day job.Its morans like you that like to hear themselves talk.

sheesha
11-16-2006, 07:18 PM
Im sorry did you have to ride the little yellow bus? <font color="blue"> </font color>