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View Full Version : WORLD CHAMPIONSIPS NEED TOO CHANGE



slim
11-11-2006, 11:25 AM
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I'm not liking what I'm seeing from the world championship in Manila.
I have played 9-ball my whole life (and beat some of the best in match play). While watching the best players in the world on TVU in Manila I feel like an aspect of the game is missing but what is it?

Many talk about seeding, longer races, winner breaks, loser breaks, round robin, dbl elimination but are we complaining or saying something else, all the while trying to figure out what is best for the game?

What is 9-Ball? I've always thought of it as an Agressive, Fast Paced, Great Shot Making game with INCREDIBLE Cue Ball movement, SPIN and control. If I'm wrong with this statement then tell me why.

What has happened.........its become TOO precise with minimal cue ball movement and its because the pockets are TOO SMALL FOR 9-BALL (& I am by no means wanting them like buckets either). When your out of line with extremely tight pockets you ""can't work the cue ball"". Also a casualty of this........you can't let your stroke out and catch another gear and RELAX and play better and better, (isn't that whats enjoyable when we see high caliber 9 ball?). The game at the championships has slowed down play WAY TOO MUCH.

I find it hard for me to enjoy this type of 9-BALL. The general public doesn't care if the pockets are extremely tight, they enjoy great shots (me too), cue ball spin and ACTION. Its always the players wanting the conditions their way, the game itself of 9-ball needs the table set up for the 'sport' of 9-ball not precision BALL POCKETING, BORING.

The game thats before us....will not allow the 9-ball style of BUSTAMANTE or Earl to catch a gear an entertain us
with the present conditions. Oh yeah they may possibly win but the current table set up is not conducive for agressive/entertaining 9-ball, its set up for slow methodical playing or for gambling, "AND THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT".

sheesha
11-11-2006, 07:57 PM
Thank you for your post.You have applied here what the top pros have been complaining about.

MrLucky
11-12-2006, 04:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> Thank you for your post.You have applied here what the top pros have been complaining about. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green">I have been reading your many post on this subject and you do not post as a simple ordinary enthusiast you sound more like you have been involved in this IPT affair ! Are you a Pro ? if so let us know who you are it would lend a bit of legitimacy to your arguments. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

sheesha
11-12-2006, 04:42 AM
NO I am not a pro.I have been around this sport many years and know alot of the players personally.I most surely am not with the IPT or the players would have been paid long before now.I did submit a complaint to the Attorney Generals Office on the players behalf as I felt crimes of fraud and intent to fraud have been committed against the players by KT.Also monney is still beng made in qualifiers when the events now have no dates.KT needs to pay these players somehow,someway today,all the players.

sheesha
11-12-2006, 04:47 AM
I still like your post and could not have said it better myself.And it is what alot of the top players have complained about.

Bob_Jewett
11-12-2006, 06:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> ... its become TOO precise with minimal cue ball movement and its because the pockets are TOO SMALL FOR 9-BALL (&amp; I am by no means wanting them like buckets either). When your out of line with extremely tight pockets you ""can't work the cue ball"". .... <hr /></blockquote>
Does this mean that the break and run percentages are down (from the typical 30%)?

How large are the pockets?

Koenig
11-13-2006, 01:25 AM
Oops, facts - scary!

Most pros want tight pockets. Earl shouted "supertight and 9-ball" at the last (?) IPT.

I found the tables in WPC way better than IPT or tables with buckets.

The long distance with alternate brakes on the other hand..

Even the money was great. IPT with faster cloth, 9-ball and 100 000 in first. That would be great.

Sorry for ot.

MrLucky
11-13-2006, 04:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sheesha:</font><hr> NO I am not a pro.I have been around this sport many years and know alot of the players personally.I most surely am not with the IPT or the players would have been paid long before now.I did submit a complaint to the Attorney Generals Office on the players behalf as I felt crimes of fraud and intent to fraud have been committed against the players by KT.Also monney is still beng made in qualifiers when the events now have no dates.KT needs to pay these players somehow,someway today,all the players. <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <font color="green"> I agree that it is very strange that new qualifiers are being announced when he has not made good on the already owed winnings to previous players! but as they say... </font color> <font color="red">"Caveat Emptor!"... </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

DickLeonard
11-14-2006, 07:17 AM
Slim Nineball is better than Ambien.####

9ball_master
11-14-2006, 10:15 AM
Try to play some Snooker on a 12 ft. table and you'll learn what tight pockets are...

I used to practice on a 10 ft. Snooker table before playing in 9ball tournaments, the word "tight pocket" looses it's meaning.... they all feels likr buckets /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

slim
11-14-2006, 02:01 PM
The why not make em 3" pockets. You missed my point, since you chose to compare 9-ball to snooker.

My point is the game of 9-ball should allow the object ball to enter the pocket at high speed especially when shooting it just off the rail. There are times when you have to and should be able to force follow and come three rails around. Now that I say that, I can't remember once when an object ball close to the long rail &amp; a couple diamonds from the pocket where the player force followed to come three rails around and back down table. That type of shot should be available in 9-ball. It should be a makeable shot, but I don't recall 'ever' seeing somone do that. Its a common shot when your a little off you perfect angle, it gives you the ability to shoooooooot another way instead of ducking.

wayne crimi
11-14-2006, 02:54 PM
As a fan, I never enjoy watching the impact that very tight pockets can have on players. I don't enjoy watching great players miss left and right, dogging shots, tightening up, changing their stroke and style etc....

As a player, I never enjoy playing under difficult conditions either.

I enojoy running balls and racks and watching others do the same. I'm not saying I want huge easy pockets, but I'll never understand the desire for tight unforgiving pockets either.

If it's as simple as better players not wanting weaker players to slop in poorly hit shots, I suspect that kind of thing equals out over the long haul. The weaker player might slop in a few extra balls, but the impact of one slopped in ball for a better player will be magnified because he does other things better. If you don't believe that, then extend the matches so superior play will prevail more often. They will end quicker if there are fewer misses anyway.

What does everyone besides me have masochistical tendencies? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Deeman3
11-14-2006, 03:31 PM
I prefer the tightest pockets that the law will allow to play on against another player. I know it is frustrating to miss shots but the better player will almost always prevail in these conditions. However, I don't enjoy watching matches on these tight pocket tables. Strange but true......

DeeMan

Fran Crimi
11-14-2006, 09:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> The why not make em 3" pockets. You missed my point, since you chose to compare 9-ball to snooker.

My point is the game of 9-ball should allow the object ball to enter the pocket at high speed especially when shooting it just off the rail. There are times when you have to and should be able to force follow and come three rails around. Now that I say that, I can't remember once when an object ball close to the long rail &amp; a couple diamonds from the pocket where the player force followed to come three rails around and back down table. That type of shot should be available in 9-ball. It should be a makeable shot, but I don't recall 'ever' seeing somone do that. Its a common shot when your a little off you perfect angle, it gives you the ability to shoooooooot another way instead of ducking. <hr /></blockquote>


BRAVO!!! Someone who understands how 9 ball is supposed to be played, which is why it's my favorite game. The pockets shouldn't be ridiculously tight nor should they be buckets. Approx 4 5/8 inch pockets are as tight as you want to go, and you have to be a straight shooter to pocket a long shot in a 4 5/8 inch pocket, and travel the cue ball three rails with side spin around the table for position. And if the pockets don't allow it, then it's not 9 Ball. It's some other game. Plain and simple.

Fran

eydyen9392
11-14-2006, 09:16 PM
I reside in the philippines and i was able to go to the wpc. dont you guys think the real reason why we dont see all those magnificent shots is because the players are getting a lot better at playing the game? i mean, why go for a three rail preparation shot with tons of spin that has to thread the gap between 5 balls when u can just go for a safety? it seems that what u want is for the players to be more aggressive yet careless at the smae time. even the best players hardly ever execute those shots cause they dont need to cause they know how to prepare for the next shot. i mean if you pocket the 1ball then have to do an amazingly difficult shot for the 2ball then i guess you arent really that good a player after all!!

Fran Crimi
11-14-2006, 09:30 PM
Would you try a power spin shot in a pocket where you knew the pocket wouldn't accept the shot? Of course not. That's what the players were stuck with, with those too tight pockets. You'd play a safety or you would pocket the ball with no frills and play a safe on the next shot.

That's not 9 Ball. That's some other game created by people (the people who tightened the pockets) who don't know what 9 Ball is.

Fran

9ball_master
11-15-2006, 02:17 AM
A lot of pro players want to switch to 10-ball in pro turnaments because 9ball is too easy... and if you use a sardo rack then the the 9ball is on the spot... is this 9ball?.... playes are looking to make 9ball harder so instead of switching to 10ball, why not make 9ball a bit more challenging? you can still spin the cue ball 3 rails on a 4.5 inch pocket, you just have to be more accurate and have a better stroke...

Fran Crimi
11-15-2006, 07:48 AM
4 1/2 Might be okay, might not. I think they'd have to be tested extensively at that size, though. I wrote 4 5/8 because I wasn't sure if the pockets will accept every type of shot at 4 1/2. I think they might not, especially if the facings are hard. Once the pocket sizes start to take shooting options away from players simply due to their size, then the skill level of the game automatically drops. People think it's the opposite but it's not necessarily true. In some instances, as with 9 Ball, knowledge of what you can get the cue ball to do is key. That all goes down the drain with unfairly tight pockets.

I can picture the U.S. players being frustrated because they know what they can do but the tables woouldn't let them do half of it.

As far as switching to 10 ball, they've tried it already. The break is too random. You can work on your break forever and it will still be random. That takes away the skill of breaking. No good.

Is the Sardo still an issue in some tournaments? I thought that wasn't an issue anymore.

Fran

9ball_master
11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
I do not agree that playing on tight pocket it's not 9ball, if we look at the history of the game then you'll know that what is played today is not 9ball... it's a fast version of 9ball (that used to be called "texas express") just like the 7ball on ESPN is not really 7ball. games evolve and so is the equipment that is in use, don't forget that American Billiard started while playing on 12ft. tables and only 4 pockets....
Just like the table speed might be different between 2 tables and the player needs to adjust, same goes to pocket opening. a better player will adjust faster, a better player will know what can be made and what not and will play accordingly.

In the last issue of BD the cover story was "How The U.S. Lost It's Edge In International Pool" I think that some of the answers are in this thread, while most american players got used to play on top of the line, well maintained tables with comfortable and accepting pockets, the players from the Philippines and Taiwan that are now in the top of the game grew up playing in worst conditions and in order to play well they had to develop a great stroke, a great aim and great ball pocketing ability, so when they come and play in International events on good tables, it's easier, even if the pockets are a bit thighter...

I don't think that the pockets are the reason why players like Bustemante don't win as much as they did, I think that it's the hunger and youth of so many new, good players that the older players can't keep up with.

BTW, Don't get me wrong, I like the bigger pockets and fast cloth, I like to move the cue ball around the table but saying that the game is not 9ball just because it became a bit harder is ridiculous. Billiard is a sport (at least that's what we would like to belive) and as a sport it should be challenging.

Fran Crimi
11-15-2006, 02:48 PM
I don't understand what you don't agree with. We're 1/8th of an inch of each other in opinion of acceptable pocket size. I'd say that's pretty close. Are you saying that it's still 9 Ball if it's played with 4 inch pockets?

Does it really matter what they did in 1910 other than it being part of the interesting history and evolution of pool?

Is that what they do in Amsterdam? Do they play with 4 inch pockets?

Fran

wayne crimi
11-15-2006, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I prefer the tightest pockets that the law will allow to play on against another player. I know it is frustrating to miss shots but the better player will almost always prevail in these conditions. However, I don't enjoy watching matches on these tight pocket tables. Strange but true......DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>

If it's frustrating to play under tight pocket conditions and you don't like to watch the game either, then the only argument for tight pockets is that the better player wins more often.

That can be solved by extending the matches. The better player will win more often in a longer match. There won't be a huge loss of time because easier pockets allow more run outs and fewer safety battles which both reduce the time per rack.

I'm not sure why this debate should be about anything other than making the game more enjoyable to play and watch.

MrLucky
11-15-2006, 09:08 PM
A couple of thoughts, 1/8th of an inch is a hell of a lot of difference especially when shooting down the lenth of a table if you just look at the difference in margin of error and how it narrowss the longer the shot ! I have always hated to play on tables with large (sloppy) pockets IMO it takes some of the fun / skill out of the game ! with a tight pocket you need to account for the pocket with your speed and spin since either can take a normally straight in shot away from you if you do not allow for this and that is an integral part of skill !

sheesha
11-16-2006, 03:50 AM
The USA players like the tight pockets .Whats hurting them is the corner ball.The break should be fom center not side.

sheesha
11-16-2006, 03:54 AM
The top players would agree.

slim
11-16-2006, 03:15 PM
I'm gonna compare golf and narrow fairways, to pool and the pocket, let me know if this makes any sense.

Lets take a PGA course, I'll put overhanging trees down all the fairways and make em only 30 yards wide.

Now lets compare the driver to the "force follow" shot.

So you want to hit your driver but the darn tress are making me tentative, so I'll pull out my irons and not let my swing out, because I know its too risky with a one wood.

There is no difference in pool, once you take away the driver (force follow) you have changed the game, so lets cut the trees back (entry into the pocket) and we'll see the total package of golf with all the clubs. Force follow far away from a pocket when shooting down the rail (fairway) should be available when competing in a World Championship.

Qtec
11-17-2006, 06:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What has happened.........its become TOO precise with minimal cue ball movement and its because the pockets are TOO SMALL FOR 9-BALL (&amp; I am by no means wanting them like buckets either). <font color="blue"> Whats happened is that the general standard of play has improved! I agree that the pockets should be able to take any kind of shot but when your shape is excellent, like the top players, you hardly have a difficult/ missable shot to play. Players dont make spectacular shots if they don't have to. It can be boring at times but its the price of perfection. </font color> When your out of line with extremely tight pockets you ""can't work the cue ball"". Also a casualty of this........you can't let your stroke out and catch another gear and RELAX and play better and better, (isn't that whats enjoyable when we see high caliber 9 ball?). <font color="blue"> I don't see that myself. My favourite player is Corey D! He does let his stroke out!
BTW, I don't think you can't win a tournament without 'letting your stroke out'. You are not going to win a tournament by hanging on to your cue. You have to let go. You can play a simple stun shot and let your stroke out! I know what you mean tho.</font color> The game at the championships has slowed down play WAY TOO MUCH.
<hr /></blockquote>

When every opponent you play [ like the WPC] is capable of running 5 racks on you, believe me, you tend to be cautious and try not give them ANY chance.
Then again, it could be the Real prize money. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Qtec.........Make the pockets big enough- even I could win!.......................... Maybe......LOL

TennesseeJoe
11-21-2006, 06:44 PM
I don't think this thread has followed the subject.
WORLD CHAMPIONSIPS NEED TOO CHANGE

If you 'SIP' Miller Lite---there is no need to change.