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Deeman3
11-30-2006, 07:29 AM
ABC has a 20/20 special last night that showed what we all knew, liberals contribute much less than conservatives to charitable causes. This even breaks down to liberal and conservative states.

This begs the question, Are liberals stingy because they are liberal or liberal because they are stingy? The report showed that liberals have no problem spending OPM but are less giving with their own money (big surprise).

Just wondering, does the fact they have very little religeous faith have anything to do with this? I know that atheists say, "We are as compassionate and morally right as a person of faith." But, as their only perceived reward is in this world, why would anyone believe that? If you know the only punishment you will get is from law and man, what would make you do otherwise when no other man is looking? Is their drive for wanting more restribution of the wealth a guilt complex? This raises some good questions.


DeeMan

Gayle in MD
11-30-2006, 07:46 AM
Hey, Deeman, where did you find the information which states that liberals have very little religious faith? never heard that one. I'm proud to say that Maryland was among the top most charitable states, also heavily Cahtolic, and liberal.

Anyway, since we're looking at polls, and studies on personality traits of a Political patry...you might be interested in this medical study, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, about the link between psychosis, and Republicanism... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cliff-schecter/are-you-psychotic-becaus_b_35161.html
Lohse, a social work masterís student at Southern Connecticut State University, says he has proven what many progressives have probably suspected for years: a direct link between mental illness and support for President Bush.

http://www.ctnow.com/custom/nmm/newhavenadvocate/hce-nha-1123-nh48bushbash48.artnov23,0,1695911.story

LOL, couldn't help it Deeman. I wasn't going to post this little gem, till after I read yours...LOL.

Gayle in Md.

Rich R.
11-30-2006, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>This begs the question, Are liberals stingy because they are liberal or liberal because they are stingy? The report showed that liberals have no problem spending OPM but are less giving with their own money (big surprise). <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman, did they also compare the wealth of the two groups?
I'm wondering if the liberals contribute less, because they have less wealth than the conservatives.
Just a thought and a question.

Deeman3
11-30-2006, 08:39 AM
Rich,

Yes, they did address this. They said the income of the liberals was slightly higher on average than the conservatives. The difference was so slight that it might be attributed to geographic location. The numbers were done per family in comparisons to Italy who gives 14 times less than Americans and Germans wwho give 7 times less.

The difference in liberal vs. conservative generosity was based on income and showed conservatives give 30% more to charity. This considers and excludes the fact that many give to support churches and only considers charity outside that support.

One of the factors they thought might be a contributor was that while conservatives feel a personal obligation the liberals may feel it is the government's job to do the giving. I don't think they based this on data however.

DeeMan

Deeman3
11-30-2006, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hey, Deeman, where did you find the information which states that liberals have very little religious faith? <font color="blue"> I never said states have very little faith. I think you will agree that liberals, by and large, are less inclined to be religous. I mean, you can do your own poll here and I think you would guess the answer, although there are exceptions such as Hondo. </font color> never heard that one. I'm proud to say that Maryland was among the top most charitable states, also heavily Cahtolic, and liberal. <font color="blue"> You are correct but 23 out fo the 24 most giving were red states...Like I said, there are exceptions. </font color>

Anyway, since we're looking at polls, and studies on personality traits of a Political patry...you might be interested in this medical study, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, about the link between psychosis, and Republicanism... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cliff-schecter/are-you-psychotic-becaus_b_35161.html
Lohse, a social work masterís student at Southern Connecticut State University, says he has proven what many progressives have probably suspected for years: a direct link between mental illness and support for President Bush.

www.NewHavenAdvocate.com (http://www.NewHavenAdvocate.com)

LOL, couldn't help it Deeman. I wasn't going to post this little gem, till after I read yours...LOL. <font color="blue">

Yep, I am sure those studies are correct.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
11-30-2006, 08:57 AM
If you vote Democrat does that make you a Liberal?
IMO the problem with charities is that you never know how much of your dollar actually goes to the people who need it.
Q

hondo
11-30-2006, 09:17 AM
Deeman, did they also compare the wealth of the two groups?
I'm wondering if the liberals contribute less, because they have less wealth than the conservatives.
Just a thought and a question. <hr /></blockquote>

Excellent question, Rich. I was getting ready to ask
the same question.

Gayle in MD
11-30-2006, 09:19 AM
Oh, so you think that 20/20's are correct? Tell me, how can they be correct? But those are not? My take would be this...There is giving of all sorts, and some cannot be documented. One has only to recall Barbara Bush's generosity for the schools of the Katrina Victims, stipulated with a big contract for her son, to get a take on Republican/Conservative style "Giving".... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> I never said states have very little faith. I think you will agree that liberals, by and large, are less inclined to be religous. I mean, you can do your own poll here and I think you would guess the answer, although there are exceptions such as Hondo. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

I think you are confusing those who are against "Organized Religion" due to its obvious tendency toward violence, war, dictatorship, anti science implications, misogeny, discrimination toward homosexuals, and human kaos in general....with those who do not subscribe to Mans interpretation of What, and Who, God really is. Those who do not subscribe to your own, Christian interpretations, are not necessarily lacking in spirituality, goodness, generosity, and kindness, but rather, may subscribe to their own inner spiritual voice and conscience.

I have always found it interesting, for example, that the Christian Right is in favor of torture, war, killing, dictatorship, condemnation and discrimination against women, and gays, and embraces the notion, that only their interpretation of Godliness, is authentic,... Given their violent history, their historical connections to assaults on human rights, and dignity, and constant involvment in killing those with differing points of view on religiosity, and Constitutional rights, some who would certainly qualify as spiritually evolved, generous, and kind human beings, are repulsed by such actions, and organized religion in general.

Frankly, having witnessed first hand, the ideology of the Conservative, so called, Religious Christian Right, in this country, and their behavior away from their lofty pulpits, and corrupt behavior in office, one has to wonder what their learning, in their churches. So, no, I would have to disagree, and say that liberals have shown themselves to be the most generous, of the two parties, in all which can be accurately documented, and particularly, in their political agenda, and their voting history.

Just my 2 C.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
11-30-2006, 10:30 AM
Gayle,

If I judge every liberal by just what I see from a few extreamists, I am wrong and have, in fact, done that on occasion. If you draw your opinion from the few 1% percenters of motorcyclists who enjoy gang rape and chasing tourists in California, you are wrong.

The vast majority of Christians are humble, careing and sensitive people who struggle with life decisions and not a bunch of wild eyed evangelical nuts you would like to portray them as.

Yes, "Giving can be done in many ways." However, excuses for the truth of not giving can also be defended in many ways. Don't worry, you have a perfect right to keep your hard earned money. I just wish you felt the same about mine.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

DeeMan

S0Noma
11-30-2006, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
Just wondering, does the fact they have very little religeous faith have anything to do with this? I know that atheists say, "We are as compassionate and morally right as a person of faith." But, as their only perceived reward is in this world, why would anyone believe that? If you know the only punishment you will get is from law and man, what would make you do otherwise when no other man is looking? Is their drive for wanting more restribution of the wealth a guilt complex? This raises some good questions.

<font color="blue">How do you correlate your opinion on the relationship of religious belief to generousity with the fact that two of the richest men in the world, Bill Gates and Warrent Buffet (both believed to be at a minimum, agnostics and at a maximum, atheists) are in the process of donating billions of their dollars to charity?

See: The world's second richest man... will start giving away 85% of his wealth in July - most of it to the Bill &amp; Melinda Gates Foundation. (http://jewishatheist.blogspot.com/2006/06/more-atheist-philanthropy-warren.html)

Warren Buffet on why he's giving his money away: ďI love it when Iím around the country club, and I hear people talking about the debilitating effects of a welfare society,Ē he said. ďAt the same time, they leave their kids a lifetime and beyond of food stamps. Instead of having a welfare officer, they have a trust officer. And instead of food stamps, they have stocks and bonds.Ē</font color>

DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
11-30-2006, 10:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, "Giving can be done in many ways." However, excuses for the truth of not giving can also be defended in many ways. Don't worry, you have a perfect right to keep your hard earned money. I just wish you felt the same about mine.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote> Perfectly stated.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
11-30-2006, 11:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Just wondering, does the fact they have very little religeous faith have anything to do with this? I know that atheists say, "We are as compassionate and morally right as a person of faith." But, as their only perceived reward is in this world, why would anyone believe that? If you know the only punishment you will get is from law and man, what would make you do otherwise when no other man is looking? [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry Deeman, but It's hard for me, knowing that you're an intelligent man, to believe that you think this way. This ideology supposes that fear of punishment from a supposed merciful God, is the main reason why people would try to be caring, giving and honest. Once again, we seem to be back to your assumption that all human goodness, and kindness, evolved from Christianity. I submit, if that were so, human beings would never have survived long enough to reach the age of Christianity.

surprising as it may be to you, there are people who give because it gives them joy. And, there are people who do the right thing, not our of fear of punishment from God, but because they have a conscience, and enough self-love, and intellect, to know that doing what is right, is the path to happiness, and they do not do so in hopes for any reward, other than the joy and happiness that they experience from it.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> The vast majority of Christians are humble, careing and sensitive people who struggle with life decisions and not a bunch of wild eyed evangelical nuts you would like to portray them as. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

I think you are confusing my feelings regarding a religious group of extremists in our country, and their endeavor to disregard our Constitution's separation of Church and State, and to use our legislature, to force all others in this country to bend to their misguided opinions of what is right, and what is wrong, with all other people who are religious. I fully believe in every person's right to worship, or not worship, as they please. I draw the line when they endeavor to dictate what is caring, loving, correct, right and wrong, in their obsessive desire to force their opinions on every other American.

In fact, IMO, any ideology which is forced onto others, by use of fear and coersion is evil by its very nature.

I think we both have a right to keep our money, however, I find it to be rather gross to think that people in this country see nothing wrong with George Bush using tax payers dollars to subsidize wealthy corporate oil billionaires, remover environmental protections which make our children ill, and the rest of us, on behalve the Corporate bottom line, and enjoy living in the greatest counrtry in the world, but at the same time, hollar and scream about welfare for the hungry children among us, fair wages for blue collar workers, and providing help for the old, and the ill among us. This, I do not find to be at all resonable, or compassionate. Our economic system, presently redirects wealth to the richest among us. All statistics have shown that to be so.

Also, while you drive along our highways, or depend in emergencies on help from our first responders, or expect Government to insure clean and healthy food, and water, and a whole range of other societal needs, doing so without paying your fair share of taxes, might prove to be a bit hypocritical, don't you think? Just as expecting to live in a society where those who are born into proverty with no fair chance to survive, won't result in a less safe, less compassionate, and less honerable country in which to raise your own children, is rather short sighted.

Also, I find it telling, that those same people who are supposed to be good Christians, are the first to jump up screaming over any financial help going to the poorest, neediest, and most exploited among us.

I could never regret any of my tax dollars going to the poor, the ill, the old, or the disadvantaged. I am very angry, however, to see no bid contracts going to a company that the Vice President still gets money from annually, and a President, and a Republican Party, who allows oil companies, and his Arab friends, and his Corporate Cronies, to rob tax dollars, and gouge Americans, and our troops at war, and particularly during wartime, while at the same time, he cuts funding for their armor, cuts fudning for education, and wipes out any accountability for poluting our environment. I don't find those political policies to be at all Godly or compassionate, or generous.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
11-30-2006, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
Sorry Deeman, but It's hard for me, knowing that you're an intelligent man, to believe that you think this way. <font color="blue"> Of course, I don't really feel this way. I'm just puling some legs like most of us do on occasion. </font color> This ideology supposes that fear of punishment from a supposed merciful God, is the main reason why people would try to be caring, giving and honest. Once again, we seem to be back to your assumption that all human goodness, and kindness, evolved from Christianity. I submit, if that were so, human beings would never have survived long enough to reach the age of Christianity. <font color="blue"> No, I really don't believe that all goodness and altruistic actions come from religeon. I do however, believe that deep in all of us is some goodness that comes from our creator, even if some are agnostic or non-beleivers. My feeling is that everyone has some glimmer of hope in a higher power but many just can't rationize that with their secular thinking. Many are spiritualists that just don't beleive in an organized God or organized religeon. I can empathise with that. However, I still disagree that man was late in developing his thoughts of an afterlife, despite the "Ascent of Man". </font color>

surprising as it may be to you, there are people who give because it gives them joy. <font color="blue">Yes, there is the thought that giving is a selfish act that rewards the given in redeaming him/her for their otherwise liberal acts.JUST KIDDING!!! </font color> And, there are people who do the right thing, not our of fear of punishment from God, but because they have a conscience, and enough self-love, and intellect, to know that doing what is right, is the path to happiness, and they do not do so in hopes for any reward, other than the joy and happiness that they experience from it. <font color="blue"> I still don't beleive that we had a conscience that evolved beyond the self-serving need to preserve ourselves, family and tribe. I believe this is endowed by our creator. We will just have to disagree on this part but I know some terrific people with wonderful personalities, minds who are agnostic. My personal preference is to have a guy/girl in life and death situations that beleives in a greater power and more of a purpose in life than passing 70 or 80 years as a nice person. They say there are no atheists in a foxhole. Is that true? I can't say as, being a believer, I know I would and have prayed in those situations. Would you pray for your daughter's life? That's an easy answer for some of us but must challenge you hard core dust-is-dust types. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> The vast majority of Christians are humble, careing and sensitive people who struggle with life decisions and not a bunch of wild eyed evangelical nuts you would like to portray them as. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>

I think you are confusing my feelings regarding a religious group of extremists in our country, and their endeavor to disregard our Constitution's separation of Church and State, and to use our legislature, to force all others in this country to bend to their misguided opinions of what is right, and what is wrong, with all other people who are religious. I fully believe in every person's right to worship, or not worship, as they please. I draw the line when they endeavor to dictate what is caring, loving, correct, right and wrong, in their obsessive desire to force their opinions on every other American.

<font color="blue"> Respectfully, you portray all Christians by the same brush. You have never said, "That narrow band of extremists are not good but the vast majority are good, decent people." You have only made examples of bad Christian behaviour as if it was the norm. </font color>

In fact, IMO, any ideology which is forced onto others, by use of fear and coersion is evil by its very nature. <font color="blue"> I agree. I have, for instance, never said, "Gayle, you must become a Christian or you will be doomed to hell!" of "Please become a Christian or I'll use the next level of coersion on you." I have simply said, "I have faith. I believe this." </font color>

I think we both have a right to keep our money, however, I find it to be rather gross to think that people in this country see nothing wrong with George Bush using tax payers dollars to subsidize wealthy corporate oil billionaires, remover environmental protections which make our children ill, and the rest of us, on behalve the Corporate bottom line, and enjoy living in the greatest counrtry in the world, but at the same time, hollar and scream about welfare for the hungry children among us, fair wages for blue collar workers, and providing help for the old, and the ill among us. This, I do not find to be at all resonable, or compassionate. Our economic system, presently redirects wealth to the richest among us. All statistics have shown that to be so.

<font color="blue"> I agree we are spending too much oney in corporate welfare and will be happy to see the Democrats help change this. I mean this.</font color>

Also, while you drive along our highways, or depend in emergencies on help from our first responders, or expect Government to insure clean and healthy food, and water, and a whole range of other societal needs, doing so without paying your fair share of taxes, might prove to be a bit hypocritical, don't you think? <font color="blue"> It might. However, I believe I pay a very handsome portion of these obligations. </font color> Just as expecting to live in a society where those who are born into proverty with no fair chance to survive, won't result in a less safe, less compassionate, and less honerable country in which to raise your own children, is rather short sighted. <font color="blue">Right, however, we have fundamental disagreemetns on how to solve this problem. I don't beleive just issueing more checks will solve the problem. While it is the cheaper of the alternatives, it has failed for 50 plus years for some very basic reasons and it will in this next round as well. Why we don't both understand this the same way is at the core of why we disagree politically. Yes, GWB was not the right answer, just better than what your side offered but still a long way form what would be right. </font color>

Also, I find it telling, that those same people who are supposed to be good Christians, are the first to jump up screaming over any financial help going to the poorest, neediest, and most exploited among us. <font color="blue">

That is untrue. I have always supported basic needs support, schoool lunch programs, etc. I participate in many charity events both related and unrelated to my work and faith. Remember, the numbers show my side as bigger contributers. </font color>

I could never regret any of my tax dollars going to the poor, the ill, the old, or the disadvantaged. <font color="blue"> I don't regret this eigher. IN some areas i just wish for giving something that will not be simply consumed in a home filled with drugs, that will pepetuate more poor kids being brought in to the world to be abused and wards of the state. </font color> I am very angry, however, to see no bid contracts going to a company that the Vice President still gets money from annually, and a President, and a Republican Party, who allows oil companies, and his Arab friends, and his Corporate Cronies, to rob tax dollars, and gouge Americans, and our troops at war, and particularly during wartime, while at the same time, he cuts funding for their armor, cuts fudning for education, and wipes out any accountability for poluting our environment. I don't find those political policies to be at all Godly or compassionate, or generous. <font color="blue"> I don't like this any more than you do but will still not like it when the Democrats do the same thing and you ignore it. You act like political payoffs, jerrymandering and no bid contracts showed up with GWB. Check your history again.

Gayle, I hope we all want to see real change. I am saddened that it seems the Democrats are just so happy to have control, they are already planning to spend time making more political hay for 2008 than actually addressing issues. They can't seem to get together on anything now. Is that going to change any time soon? I hope so. </font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

heater451
11-30-2006, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> ABC has a 20/20 special last night that showed what we all knew, liberals contribute much less than conservatives to charitable causes. This even breaks down to liberal and conservative states. . . . <hr /></blockquote>Does Haliburton count, as a "charitable cause"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." --Benjamin Disraeli (popularized Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens)

Deeman3
12-01-2006, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Does Haliburton count, as a "charitable cause"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

<font color="blue">You know, in a way, it might. NO matter how profitable Hallliburton is, the vast majority of the funds they get from our government are redistributed in salaries, investment and spending. This in no way justifies no-bid contracts or waste but given the choice of handing free money to someone who would buy drugs or support a gang group, the money is probably better spent, on average on these companies that, at least, drive some of the economy. What about the extortion money we give to the mounds of breaucracy that sit around for the soul purpose of collecting taxes or making your individual lives hell when you need a government service?

NOw that the Democrats are in power, we can expect to see pork barrel projects go the way of the steam engine, right? </font color>

DeeMan


<hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
12-01-2006, 07:48 AM
How about the over $8 a gallon Haliburton charges the Iraqi Government, instead of the agreed upon price of $1.26 a gal?
While these added fees lines the pockets of the Haliburton board (charity or extortion?)....it will be the American public that will have to pay back the excess charges, in the form of taxes. Just one of the creative ways they have to earn "warbucks" They might wear suits....but they are still a "gang"
While the pork will go on as usual.....it will be hard to meet the standards of this admin
The good news though is that the President has probably saved the country untold millions of dollars. A deeply religious man, in an act similar to a Catholic going to confession, and receiving absolution...in the dual roles of penitent/confessor (persona Christi) he forgave himself of all sins committed while in office (some offenses haven't even occurred yet). "Mea maxima culpa"
when you consider the $100m spent investigating the Clinton/Lewinski cigar scandal (Bill's defense "I inhaled, but did not smoke" )....the country could literally go bankrupt investigating the past 6 yrs of corruption

DickLeonard
12-01-2006, 09:08 AM
Wolfdancer if Fran was of a different Party she would be in Great demand as a Forensic Accountant. We might not hear from her till the year 2525 if we're still alive.####

Gayle in MD
12-01-2006, 10:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> You know, in a way, it might. NO matter how profitable Hallliburton is, the vast majority of the funds they get from our government are redistributed in salaries, investment and spending. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>


I suppose you think that Cheney, Bush, Wolfowitz, and the others, their own pocketbooks, their friends pocketbooks, and their connections with Corporations like Halliburton, and the Saudis, played no role in the fact that our kids are now dying in Iraq and that the real reason we are there is because we wanted to find WMD's? Or, when that didn't work, to spread Democracy? This is like wondering what came first, the propped up reasons for the occupation, or the cronyism, and greed for more money, with the blood of our youth? Chicken? Or egg? Why does Cheney hold energy policy meetings in secret, and go all the way to the supreme Court, to hide the information on who was there, and what was said?

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> This in no way justifies no-bid contracts or waste but given the choice of handing free money to someone who would buy drugs or support a gang group, the money is probably better spent, on average on
these companies that, at least, drive some of the economy. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

So, those are the only two choices? Please, Deeman, have you read anything lately on the exhorbitant retirement packages, and subsidies going out? Didn't anyone tell you that Bush was going to war before he ever got into office. Haven't you read that the people who were jumping out of their chairs trying to prevent 9/11 couldn't get this administrations collective mind off Iraq, their coming money deals, and their friends, and their own, mass expansion of personal wealth through war? If you think such gross disregard for human life, and massive fortunes made from the blood and loss of life, from going to war, can be compared to drugs, and gangs, all I can say is, WOW!!! Unfortunately, everything held up as helping the economy, is referred to without any reference to the massive debt. This president is financing the war, and his tax cuts, by borrowing money from China, and others. Funny how you economy bulls, never mention the deficit?

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> What about the extortion money we give to the mounds of breaucracy that sit around for the soul purpose of collecting taxes or making your individual lives hell when you need a government service? [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

You mean like our huge Homeland Security fiasco? Beaurocracy never had it so good since the Republicans got in there. "Atta boy Brown," and "Atta boy Maliki" the more people F-up, the more accolades this president give out, medals, included, for those who F-up, as long as they don't give away any truthful information about what is going on!



NOw that the Democrats are in power, we can expect to see pork barrel projects go the way of the steam engine, right?

It's a matter of degree, Deeman, and which party is hurting the country the most at any given time. So far, NO party has ever made such a gold star mark on running up deficits, redistributing wealth, hurting the unfortunate, ignoring the law, growing the Government, infuriating the world, multiplying our enemies, ignoring our safety, and lying to the public. Bar NONE!!! I suppose you're quite sure that none of these wealthy billionaires conncected to the Corporate give aways, or the gross war profiteering that has been allowed by this Administration, EVER use ANY drugs? How very convenient....only the poor and hungry, buy drugs, I'm quite sure...the starving children? If Democrats can stay on their stated platform, I suppose they will clean up a lot of messes, as usual, made by Republicans, and take away many of the Bush policies, which burden the middle class, in order to line the pockets of the wealthy, such as, allowing price shopping for drugs, tightening up our pollution standards again, and doing away with no-bid contracts, those things alone, and holding someone accountable for War Profiteering, which in this case means, Halliburton stealing all of us blind, and incompetence in waging this chosen war, not as a last resort, diplomacy be damned, will put us way way ahead of where we find ourselves presently.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
12-01-2006, 11:10 AM
My studies point to ancient basic needs, the worship of food and crops, and mythology surrounding sexuality, and fertility, along with man's overwhelming awe of the power of nature, as being the basic mythological beginnings of man's belief in a higher power, not the onset of Christianity.

You accuse me of blanket derrogatory statements about all forms of prayer, and belief in God. I think that's unfair, but I forgive you for misunderstanding, as I know, that I sometimes over-react to radical, anti-constitutional behavior by the religious right. However, in the interest of better understanding, and for the record, references to those who believe the bible literally, accurately portray my basic feelings for radical religious NUTS!!! I am in no way intending to attack anyone's personal right to worship as they see fit. As I have stated many times, it is the action of forcing all others to think, and believe as they do, through legislation, and against our Constutional separation of Church and State, and its involvment in all things violent and murderous, and its lack of compassion, which engenders repulsion in me for oranized religion, for myself, that is. When I worship, I worship human goodness, and whatever God is, knowing that I will never have the ability to know for sure what God is, but that whatever He is, He is all around us, and He does not wish us to be greedy, dishonest, violent, and without principles, and generosity. IOW, He is not, IMO, Who, or What, organized religion portrays Him to be. Not to me, atleast. AND, believe me, If I ever meet Him, he's got some questions coming, and it isn't going to be pretty. My thoughts have alwasy been, it doesn't matter. I need not know. I need only to be a good force in the world, and do my best. That is all I need to know.

We all want change, Deeman, and we all want freedom, privacy, and a good life. I've been disappointed by many administrations, both Democrat, and Republican, but never to this degree. Democrats, are not in power, yet, but all that any of us can do, is hold them accountable for whatever they do. Accountability, is the key, and the lack of it these last six years, compliments the Republican Majority, has cost many many lives, wasted a tremendous amount of treasure, and caused great devastation against our principles, our constitution, and our honor, nationally and internationally. All we can do, is all we can do, and most of us do not do enough.

Gayle in Md.

Chopstick
12-01-2006, 12:00 PM
Here is what all the hoop-lah is all about. There is a link to an excel spreadsheet above the list if you want to see it broken down further. The numbers are available from several sources so are independantly verifiable.

As you can see from the list the snootyfied blue states come in last except for MD which came in at 30th place out of 50.


Generosity index by state. (http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy.org/cfp/db/generosity.php?year=2004)

Deeman3
12-01-2006, 12:18 PM
Gayle,

A very reasoned and respectful answer. I thank you for that and very much respect your opinion and answers.

I am not a fervent believer in every word of the Bible as literal truth. I am probably not what you would define as a fundamentist as well. I do believe in God as a conscience creator and I figure He will have questions for me when we finally meet. I know I do not live up to His nor my own expectations but I do try. I do pray for this country and this world every day and hope it, along with other's prayers, will have some positive impact.

If I see a man trying to bomb an abortion clinic, I will stop him and if I witness it, I will go to court to try to convict him/her. I assume I promote/hire as many atheists as I do people of faith. Given no reason, I don't want to see anyone, Muslims included, killed uselessly. I believe these are more common traits of Christians, rather than ranting lunitics that border the fringe of almost any group as it becomes large enough. I do not understand why the average Muslim does not have similar views. I do not understand that some do not see the basic difference in most Christians and Islamics. I know there are good Muslims. However, they, even the best, do not stand up strongly against beheading, bombing, etc. The few who do provide a moderate viewpoint in interviews are very quickly caught saying exactly the opposite to Muslim audiences. Why do most not see this difference and just refer back to times when Christians made some very large mistakes that do not reflect the Christian people today.

I used to think all of us want freedom but the Iraqis are proving me wrong.

I am disappointed in both parties as well. I think just the simple fact of one party havng such control over such a long period is part of the problem. Maybe Republicans are easier to corrupt than Democrats but I really don't think so. I don't really feeel there is one iota of difference in the two parties, just their retoric and we will see a shift in balance back toward the Democratic corruption for a few years. However, i hope I am wrong and will give the Democrats every chance to change things and my mind about them. I will try to be fair.

What I would like now is the potential candidates to come out and tell us where they stand and not just keep quiet to avoid a Kerry moment or wait for opinion polls to decied their platform. I saw Al Gore on TV the other night and he looks like he may have gained a little heart in the past few years. Let's just wait and see.

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
12-01-2006, 01:40 PM
Thanks Deeman, as is usually the case, when people take the time to communicate, they have much more in common than they thought.

While I don't think one can compare Christianity of today, with radical Muslims, I think the comparison is usually a more overall reaction to our President claiming authority through his God, to justify his decision for war, rather than diplomacy. We have seen the results. At the time, I was appalled that he took such action in Iraq. My cry, was originally, for diplomatic solutions. It is ironic, that diplomatic solutions, after six years of killing, seem to be the ONLY answers left, now. And our failure over our most pressing issue, bin Laden's capture, 9/11, and alQaeda, which compromises our only justifiable presence in the Middle East, in Afghanistan, has been lost in the shuffle. This is a tragic disappointment for those of us who are to this day full of anger over what those despots did to our people.

These are not, as they say, the best of times. While we all hope, and pray in our own ways, for solutions, we must all, also, demand truth, and accountability, from our own leaders, if we are to solve our pressing issues, and threats. What we have lost, over these last six years, is trust, and the loss of trust in our leaders, IMO, was a horrible thing to lose, as a Nation, after having lost so much on 9/11.

As you know, I hold George Bush completely accountable for this, and my anger at him, for using it as a cause for the occupation in Iraq, which he now admits had nothing to do with 9/11, comes not from personal hatred for him, but from my love of my country, and my lasting anger over what happened to it, and to all of us, and how he has not made salving that National wound, his first priority.

As for elections, it makes me mad that the news media, and the politicians, are already harping over who will run. There's just too much hype, about everything, in our society, and not nearly enough substance. Our Representatives, all of them, should be scrambling to show us some reasons to keep voting for any of them, IMO. Ya know what I mean....where's the beef!!!

Gayle in Md.



I, too, am disappointed in the Iraqis, but, not surprised. There must be an evolution of ideology preceeding committment in order for democracy to have furtile ground. I simply thought, and think, that the unfortunate recipients of exploitative, repressive leadership, in many countries, often do not posess the tools for such committment, having been repressed, and fearful for so long. Kind of reminds one of the children who love their violent parents, the wife who loves her battering husband, fearful, oppressed people, whose only comfort is in what is familiar. It is very, very sad, what man has done to man, no doubt, and heartbreaking. However, ideology, is greatly influenced by leadership, and leadership can only be in the interest of the people, when leaders display courage through patience, counsel, accountability, and careful study in advance of action. I'm afraid, our current leadership, has failed on all counts. And, I am angry, that though they deserve punishment, for failing us, and for failing the victims of 9/11, and Katrina, they will get none. Much as I would like to see impeachment proceedings, I know, that our country is at such peril, at the present, we can not afford the time away from focussing on our pressing problems in order to address their many inappropriate, and illegal actions.

I think that Democrats know this, and know as well, that the country is sick and tired of partisan battles, and hungry for action, and solutions. it is depressing, for all of us, to digest the information, and understand, the quagmire in which we find ourselves. No course, seems effective in ending terrorism, or the War in Iraq, and cooling the tentions in the Middle East. Hate, is a powerful enemy. It is the hate, which we must address, and address in a manner which rises above the philosophical standards of might makes right. War is hell, and nobody wins. We live in a time of such dangerous weaponry, if we are to survive, we must evolve and advance intellectually, through the principles of humanity, and of high intention, rather than by using the same justifications for violence, and war, as those used by our enemies.

cushioncrawler
12-01-2006, 03:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> ... While I don't think one can compare Christianity of today, with radical Muslims, I think the comparison is usually a more overall reaction to our President claiming authority through his God, to justify his decision for war, rather than diplomacy .... <hr /></blockquote>
Not related -- but the bible duznt say anything about islam (but perhaps it predicts mohammed) -- and allmost nothing about bombs -- and i think little about the usa -- but plenty about war. madMac.

DickLeonard
12-01-2006, 03:59 PM
chopstick I know that company who provided the information
they also provided GWB with his WMD info Iraq.####

eg8r
12-02-2006, 09:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
chopstick I know that company who provided the information
they also provided GWB with his WMD info Iraq.#### <hr /></blockquote> So, when the finger points the other way it is ok to shoot the messenger? You guys don't like it when we mention the character or bias of your sources, however it is all game when you don't like the data being presented by someone else.

eg8r