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View Full Version : Short stroke help deflection? PLEASE HELP!



cstepro348
12-01-2006, 11:18 AM
Okay guys, I'm new to this website. Been shooting for 5 years, starting to use alot of english. I use a Meucci, with black dot shaft, Moori III soft.
I have noticed alot lately that when I use the amount of english I want that I have to compensate alot. Talked to an old timer that is an excellent shot that shoots with a Meucci original. Asked how to get less deflection. In talking he told me that if I used shorter strokes with a little more snap and less follow through that the stick will not bend as far causing the deflection.....
Is this true and can anyone give me any helpful tips?

Deeman3
12-01-2006, 11:42 AM
No,

Keep practicing, use as little english as you need and you'll soon be taking his money and his Meucci. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan
last time I checked, the cue didn't know or care about the length or amount of "snap" in your stroke. That is purely between you and your wife or girlfriend

dr_dave
12-01-2006, 11:59 AM
Stroke length, amount of snap, and amount of follow-through should have no effect on the amount of squirt (unless those actions somehow help you compensate for squirt by changing your stroking line ... the mind can do amazing things when one "believes").

I like Deeman's reply (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=239495&page =0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1).

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cstepro348:</font><hr> Okay guys, I'm new to this website. Been shooting for 5 years, starting to use alot of english. I use a Meucci, with black dot shaft, Moori III soft.
I have noticed alot lately that when I use the amount of english I want that I have to compensate alot. Talked to an old timer that is an excellent shot that shoots with a Meucci original. Asked how to get less deflection. In talking he told me that if I used shorter strokes with a little more snap and less follow through that the stick will not bend as far causing the deflection.....
Is this true and can anyone give me any helpful tips? <hr /></blockquote>

cstepro348
12-01-2006, 12:03 PM
Wow, that was some fast responses thanks guys. So what do you suggest for less deflection?
I'm sorry I'm sure ya'll get these questions daily..

Deeman3
12-01-2006, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cstepro348:</font><hr> Wow, that was some fast responses thanks guys. So what do you suggest for less deflection?
I'm sorry I'm sure ya'll get these questions daily.. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> The easy answer is to buy a low deflection cue. Essentially, you are buying a cue shaft with less mass in the business end of it. Some manufacturers leave a hollow place, some use lighter materials, etc. Just for your reference, i have been playing for over 40 years and the reduced deflection shafts just don't do much for me. Perhaps i have been compensating for too long but I've gone as long as 3 months with a 314 for instance and never liked the adjustment. I now use this collection of shafts on my break cue.....Some swear by them.</font color>

DeeMan

cstepro348
12-01-2006, 01:41 PM
Well I do have, the Meucci Black Dot shaft is supposed to be pretty good. Guess I'll keep compensating?

Cornerman
12-01-2006, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cstepro348:</font><hr> Wow, that was some fast responses thanks guys. So what do you suggest for less deflection?
I'm sorry I'm sure ya'll get these questions daily.. <hr /></blockquote>For less cueball squirt, you'll need to buy a lower squirt shaft. If that's the route you want to go, I'd suggest a OB-1 shaft.

For learning to compensate for cueball squirt, if you can pocket balls with center ball today, I suggest watching Colin Colenso's video on Backhand English.

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos (scroll down to Backhand English)

Fred

DickLeonard
12-01-2006, 03:05 PM
pro348 I would see fisherman in the Ausable River using Meucci's they coulldn't believe that a pool cue could double as a Fly Rod.####

Deeman3
12-01-2006, 03:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cstepro348:</font><hr> Well I do have, the Meucci Black Dot shaft is supposed to be pretty good. Guess I'll keep compensating? <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

I think, as Dick is trying to tell you. It's not the stick...He should know. He's run more balls than most of us have seen in our lifetime. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

DeeMan

Jal
12-01-2006, 04:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cstepro348:</font><hr>...Is this true and can anyone give me any helpful tips? <hr /></blockquote>The only stroke modification that I know of which will reduce squirt is swooping the tip over to the side you're applying the english. That is, instead of a straight stroke, having the tip follow a side-to-side arc as it approaches the cueball. Needless to say, this is not recommended. The amount of reduction you get just isn't worth the extra complications.

Jim

SPetty
12-01-2006, 04:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> The easy answer is to buy a low deflection cue. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>Cornerman beat me to it, but if that's the direction you take, www.obcues.com (http://www.obcues.com) is the best there is by far!

pooltchr
12-01-2006, 06:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Stroke length, amount of snap, and amount of follow-through should have no effect on the amount of squirt (unless those actions somehow help you compensate for squirt by changing your stroking line ... the mind can do amazing things when one "believes").

<hr /></blockquote>

Dave,
I don't know if I have ever read anything I agree with more than this statement. I also believe that the last part of that quote is the reason there are so many products being sold that promise to "make your game improve"!

Sid_Vicious
12-01-2006, 06:47 PM
What I see in your shortened change and improvement is this. It is bandaid-ing a timing problem. Stroke at impact means one primary detail, that being that the CB smoothly departs the tip and then follows evenly and smoothly through the intended travel-map of the CB's course. Temporarily sshortening the stroke holds back the improper body english, plus your cue is self limited in it's skew after contact. Shoot a ton of lag shots, working at coming back directly to your tip with the CB. Timing, that's where the stroke exists...sid

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2006, 12:43 AM
Best paid for advantage in wood IMO...sid

wolfdancer
12-02-2006, 12:47 PM
They don't let me post up here too often....but maybe his "problem" could be allievated somewhat with just a firmer bridge?
As for the OB1 shaft.....it's "awesome" for spin with little compensation....I just don't trust it enough to take it to a tournament. I miss cut shots with it, that normally go in...
And thanks for the link here, to Colin's back hand english video. Great stuff !!!!!

Billy_Bob
12-03-2006, 10:10 AM
I use a Predator 314 low deflection shaft and this is a *true* low deflection shaft. It is hollow in about the first 5 inches from the tip. And I think they might do some other things to the end of the shaft.

Also it has a dime shaped tip which Predator says has less cue ball deflection. Note that it is a BIG change to go from a nickel shaped tip to a dime shaped tip. It can take 6 months or a year to adjust. Also switching to a low deflection shaft is a big change. Can take a couple of years to adjust if you have been using english with a regular shaft.

But a low deflection shaft is great for beginners just learning english. You can aim dead center, then move just your front hand left/right to apply english (keep backhand still), and the cue ball will go to the same spot as a dead center hit.

This is great for long shots using english. There is another problem called "throw" when using english with cut shots and you still need to compensate for that unless the object ball is near a pocket.

Anyway a *true* low deflection shaft will have less "mass" in the first 5 inches of the shaft. Unscrew a Predator shaft and rest the tip on a scale (joint resting on table surface). Do same with a regular shaft. There is more weight with a regular shaft. [This is not very scientific, but gives you the general idea.]

You can use english with a regular cue and "backhand english", however you need to have your bridge at the "pivot point". If the pivot point is 10 inches back from the tip, and the cue ball is near a rail, you can't have a 10 inch bridge. For this reason I prefer a Predator low deflection shaft and using "front hand english". The cue ball can be on or near the rail and I can still shoot accurate shots using english.

This whole cue ball deflection thing (squirt) is all very scientific. It is a "contest" between the tip end of the cue and the cue ball when using english.

If the tip of the cue is quite heavy (lots of mass), when shooting at the side of the cue ball, the tip will tend to stay where it is (the direction it is heading) and "push" the cue ball to the side a bit. So the cue ball "deflects" or goes somewhere else than where you intended.

If the tip end of the cue if "feather light" (little mass), when the tip of the cue hits the cue ball on the side, the cue ball wins the "contest" and the tip bends away from the cue ball.

Experiment:
Shove a 2 x 4 piece of wood at the side of the cue ball. The 2 x 4 keeps going straight and the cue ball goes off to the side.
Shove a plastic straw at the side of the cue ball. The cue ball stays put and the plastic straw bends away from the cue ball.

This is the basic idea of a low deflection shaft and having a "low mass" end of the shaft.

There is a paper written on all of this. Ignore the math parts (unless you are Einstein), but read the sections written in "English". Interesting stuff. Here is the paper...

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cue Ball Squirt, But Were Afraid to Ask
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

wayne crimi
12-07-2006, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Also it has a dime shaped tip which Predator says has less cue ball deflection. Note that it is a BIG change to go from a nickel shaped tip to a dime shaped tip. It can take 6 months or a year to adjust. Also switching to a low deflection shaft is a big change. Can take a couple of years to adjust if you have been using english with a regular shaft.<hr /></blockquote>

I find this interesting. I've been playing on and off for 30 years (pretty good player) and I pay very little attention to the shape of my tip. It's probably different every time I work on it. I never noticed any difference. I am much more interested in just keeping it kind of rough so it takes the chalk and reduces the chances of a miscue.

Billy_Bob
12-08-2006, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wayne crimi:</font><hr> ...I find this interesting. I've been playing on and off for 30 years (pretty good player) and I pay very little attention to the shape of my tip. It's probably different every time I work on it. I never noticed any difference. I am much more interested in just keeping it kind of rough so it takes the chalk and reduces the chances of a miscue. <hr /></blockquote>

I have observed time and time again... Players (even those who have been playing for 20/30 years) will get a "new" tip installed, then their game goes out the window for awhile.

So what is going on when this happens?

They don't know what brand/hardness of tip they have... (When they start griping about their new tip, I ask them what brand/hardness their old tip was and what brand/hardness their new tip is. Their answer in both cases is "I don't know. I got these tips from some guy.")

They don't know what shape their tip has... (When I ask what shape their old tip had and what shape they gave their new tip, they say "I don't know.")

Perhaps if they always used the same brand/hardness and shape of tip, then they would not have these problems when installing a new tip?

Billy_Bob
12-08-2006, 09:13 AM
["Predator research has clearly shown that a dime radius (or shape of a dime) will produce 5 percent to 10 percent less cue ball deflection than the more commonly used nickel shape. The cue ball deflection is reduced because the dime radius centralizes the hit to the center, or strong part, of the shaft."]

Above from...
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.html

Fran Crimi
12-08-2006, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wayne crimi:</font><hr> ...I find this interesting. I've been playing on and off for 30 years (pretty good player) and I pay very little attention to the shape of my tip. It's probably different every time I work on it. I never noticed any difference. I am much more interested in just keeping it kind of rough so it takes the chalk and reduces the chances of a miscue. <hr /></blockquote>

I have observed time and time again... Players (even those who have been playing for 20/30 years) will get a "new" tip installed, then their game goes out the window for awhile.

So what is going on when this happens?

They don't know what brand/hardness of tip they have... (When they start griping about their new tip, I ask them what brand/hardness their old tip was and what brand/hardness their new tip is. Their answer in both cases is "I don't know. I got these tips from some guy.")

They don't know what shape their tip has... (When I ask what shape their old tip had and what shape they gave their new tip, they say "I don't know.")

Perhaps if they always used the same brand/hardness and shape of tip, then they would not have these problems when installing a new tip?
<hr /></blockquote>

Huh? What kind of 'player' doesn't know what tip they're using? How good can they possibly be?

Fran

wayne crimi
12-11-2006, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wayne crimi:</font><hr> ...I find this interesting. I've been playing on and off for 30 years (pretty good player) and I pay very little attention to the shape of my tip. It's probably different every time I work on it. I never noticed any difference. I am much more interested in just keeping it kind of rough so it takes the chalk and reduces the chances of a miscue. <hr /></blockquote>

I have observed time and time again... Players (even those who have been playing for 20/30 years) will get a "new" tip installed, then their game goes out the window for awhile.

So what is going on when this happens?

They don't know what brand/hardness of tip they have... (When they start griping about their new tip, I ask them what brand/hardness their old tip was and what brand/hardness their new tip is. Their answer in both cases is "I don't know. I got these tips from some guy.")

They don't know what shape their tip has... (When I ask what shape their old tip had and what shape they gave their new tip, they say "I don't know.")

Perhaps if they always used the same brand/hardness and shape of tip, then they would not have these problems when installing a new tip?
<hr /></blockquote>

I've tended to use whatever tip was available to me. Over time I developed preferences related to "miscue" issues, but I can honestly say I've never noticed any tip related differences in my game that I wasn't able to adjust to within 30 minutes or so as long as the tip was reasonably shaped.

If my tip fell off and I was in the poolroom, I'd just ask the employee for whatever tip they put on the house cues. I'd expect to be at the top of my game by the end of the next session no matter what kind of crap they put on. My high run came with a slightly warped house cue.

I am mostly interested in eliminating miscues and having enough of a shape to get action on the cue ball.

I guess it seems to me that weather, the cloth, the cleanliness of the balls and other factor so dominate the tip in terms of the conditions I have to adjust to, that I can't notice the impact of the tip as a seperate factor. My playing adjustments are just part of one big set of changing conditions that I do on automatic pilot.