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S0Noma
12-02-2006, 09:12 AM
"Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.

By Sam Harris

September 18, 2006

TWO YEARS AGO I published a book highly critical of religion, "The End of Faith." In it, I argued that the world's major religions are genuinely incompatible, inevitably cause conflict and now prevent the emergence of a viable, global civilization. In response, I have received many thousands of letters and e-mails from priests, journalists, scientists, politicians, soldiers, rabbis, actors, aid workers, students from people young and old who occupy every point on the spectrum of belief and nonbelief.

This has offered me a special opportunity to see how people of all creeds and political persuasions react when religion is criticized. I am here to report that liberals and conservatives respond very differently to the notion that religion can be a direct cause of human conflict.

This difference does not bode well for the future of liberalism.

Perhaps I should establish my liberal bone fides at the outset. I'd like to see taxes raised on the wealthy, drugs decriminalized and homosexuals free to marry. I also think that the Bush administration deserves most of the criticism it has received in the last six years especially with respect to its waging of the war in Iraq, its scuttling of science and its fiscal irresponsibility.

But my correspondence with liberals has convinced me that liberalism has grown dangerously out of touch with the realities of our world specifically with what devout Muslims actually believe about the West, about paradise and about the ultimate ascendance of their faith.

On questions of national security, I am now as wary of my fellow liberals as I am of the religious demagogues on the Christian right.

This may seem like frank acquiescence to the charge that "liberals are soft on terrorism." It is, and they are.

A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.

Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities.

Given the degree to which religious ideas are still sheltered from criticism in every society, it is actually possible for a person to have the economic and intellectual resources to build a nuclear bomb and to believe that he will get 72 virgins in paradise. And yet, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, liberals continue to imagine that Muslim terrorism springs from economic despair, lack of education and American militarism.

At its most extreme, liberal denial has found expression in a growing subculture of conspiracy theorists who believe that the atrocities of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. A nationwide poll conducted by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of Americans suspect that the federal government "assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East;" 16% believe that the twin towers collapsed not because fully-fueled passenger jets smashed into them but because agents of the Bush administration had secretly rigged them to explode.

Such an astonishing eruption of masochistic unreason could well mark the decline of liberalism, if not the decline of Western civilization. There are books, films and conferences organized around this phantasmagoria, and they offer an unusually clear view of the debilitating dogma that lurks at the heart of liberalism: Western power is utterly malevolent, while the powerless people of the Earth can be counted on to embrace reason and tolerance, if only given sufficient economic opportunities.

I don't know how many more engineers and architects need to blow themselves up, fly planes into buildings or saw the heads off of journalists before this fantasy will dissipate. The truth is that there is every reason to believe that a terrifying number of the world's Muslims now view all political and moral questions in terms of their affiliation with Islam. This leads them to rally to the cause of other Muslims no matter how sociopathic their behavior. This benighted religious solidarity may be the greatest problem facing civilization and yet it is regularly misconstrued, ignored or obfuscated by liberals.

Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq liberals can find much to lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror. Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are.

Recent condemnations of the Bush administration's use of the phrase "Islamic fascism" are a case in point. There is no question that the phrase is imprecise Islamists are not technically fascists, and the term ignores a variety of schisms that exist even among Islamists but it is by no means an example of wartime propaganda, as has been repeatedly alleged by liberals.

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.

We are entering an age of unchecked nuclear proliferation and, it seems likely, nuclear terrorism. There is, therefore, no future in which aspiring martyrs will make good neighbors for us. Unless liberals realize that there are tens of millions of people in the Muslim world who are far scarier than Dick Cheney, they will be unable to protect civilization from its genuine enemies.

Increasingly, Americans will come to believe that the only people hard-headed enough to fight the religious lunatics of the Muslim world are the religious lunatics of the West. Indeed, it is telling that the people who speak with the greatest moral clarity about the current wars in the Middle East are members of the Christian right, whose infatuation with biblical prophecy is nearly as troubling as the ideology of our enemies. Religious dogmatism is now playing both sides of the board in a very dangerous game.

While liberals should be the ones pointing the way beyond this Iron Age madness, they are rendering themselves increasingly irrelevant. Being generally reasonable and tolerant of diversity, liberals should be especially sensitive to the dangers of religious literalism. But they aren't.

The same failure of liberalism is evident in Western Europe, where the dogma of multiculturalism has left a secular Europe very slow to address the looming problem of religious extremism among its immigrants. The people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists.

To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization.

web page (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Harris_Liberals.htm)

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2006, 03:11 PM
"To say that this does not bode well for liberalism is an understatement: It does not bode well for the future of civilization."

Who began that beginning to the end, through sand in thier scalp, has already been established. "Stay the course" and shampoo regularly...that is the motto of this misguided Irag quagmire. Seriously Friend, the chimp was the idiot who kicked off this useless crap in Iraq. It is the followers who maintain the same direction who extended it to where we are today. It is pathetic and painfull to even believe that true blooded Americans could stay with this baffoon.

Let me simplify this,,,if the US had left Iraq alone, then we would NOT be faced with this gracefull exit, which is certainly a win for BL. If we did not have a terrorist country in Iraq, we will now, and Iran is salivating while building their capabilities. Iraq was the main f-up, we had a war already in Afganistan and a criminal to capture. The rest of it was just a greedy event posed by an admin full of crooks in order to feather their own nests. Frankly speaking, GWB has sold the US out, plain and simple. He is a traitor..sid

Chopstick
12-02-2006, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>

Who began that beginning to the end, through sand in thier scalp, has already been established.

<hr /></blockquote>

Kind of an obtuse sentence don't you think. Try reading it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what your fixin to say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2006, 03:49 PM
It's a too far right slanted, which is par for the course. That is all I've stated all along. If there was a temp labotomy to be had amongst all of us, ahead of the analysis, you'd understand...sid

cushioncrawler
12-02-2006, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> "Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists. By Sam Harris.... <hr /></blockquote>
Sam makes a lot of sense -- but i think that his words " Muslim extremists" can be replaced with "Islam".

Then we can add -- "Civilisation is at risk from Christianity" -- i say this from a greenie perspective. madMac.

S0Noma
12-02-2006, 06:35 PM
What was it about:

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I should establish my liberal bone fides at the outset. I'd like to see taxes raised on the wealthy, drugs decriminalized and homosexuals free to marry. I also think that the Bush administration deserves most of the criticism it has received in the last six years especially with respect to its waging of the war in Iraq, its scuttling of science and its fiscal irresponsibility.
<hr /></blockquote>

[ QUOTE ]
Given the mendacity and shocking incompetence of the Bush administration especially its mishandling of the war in Iraq liberals can find much to lament in the conservative approach to fighting the war on terror. Unfortunately, liberals hate the current administration with such fury that they regularly fail to acknowledge just how dangerous and depraved our enemies in the Muslim world are. <hr /></blockquote>

that led you to believe Harris was lending his support to Bush's war in Iraq? Ridding the world of Saddam Hussein, or democratizing Iraq, is not on his list of important concerns.

He's talking about an attitude of denial that is deterring many from grasping who our true opponents are in this ongoing conflict with religious terrorism.

Osama Bin Laden, for example, is a religious zealot. He is STILL at large. The suicide bombers that routinely kill themselves in an effort to take as many non-believers as they can with them are religious zealots masquerading as patriots. Iran, a Muslim theocracy that holds 'Hate America' rallies on a daily basis, is on the verge of developing its own atomic weapons. This is the kind of stuff that concerns Harris and it's the liberals misconception of the true nature of that threat that worries him.

It worries me too.

Gayle in MD
12-02-2006, 10:25 PM
My concerns are the same, friend. I do think, in some cases, conservatives mistake the frustration expressed by Liberals. When one is thinking precious time needed to address pressing threats, directly, and diplomatically, is being lost by going down the wrong path, one tends to get testy...lol, I know I do.

I don't think that liberals, are at all naive' to the threat which bin Laden, and the Evil Radical Islamists present to the world. The truth is that conservative media, and this administration, have driven driven them nuts, with lies and denial, with smokescreens of imaginary WMD's, and false reports of conspiracies, while at the same time, never mentioning some of the worst offenders, threats, and greatest supporters of terrorism. Liberals understand the Middle East threats,..... Liberals, see as well, our National threat, from those who practice deception, in our supposed behalf. Liberals are not distracted a moment, knowing bin Laden, our real threat, is still out there, no question. Liberals have had a long headache, as time wasted on, watching Republicans bandstand over long ago settled laws, over personal private American issues, used to rile and distract the public, and at such a critical time.



Gayle

Gayle in MD
12-03-2006, 07:52 AM
I must have been tired late last night, when I wrote my last response to you post, friend. Specifically, I'm saying, that while I agree with a great deal of what is in the article, and also, I think that many many Americans do not fully realize what we're up against, I also think it is a mistake to connect the Liberal attention to preserving our rights, and our values of humane treatment, for example, and war as a last resort, and rejection of unrealistic policies, to ignorance of the threat. That is where the article, IMHO, does not fairly portray the Liberal take on our very real, and dangerous threat.

Let me add here, much of my personal frustration these last six years can be summed up this way, this was one hellova time, for the United States, to go off half cocked, in the wrong direction.

Now, IMO, we are at Kerry's predicted result, who will be the last American soldier, to die, (for nothing) in Iraq. Regardless of how the right condemns Liberals for knowing when to stop throwing good effort, into ultimately bad possibilities, when we're in a no wan situation, it's time to change course. Vietnam, is an excellent example of that, IMO, and while we had a Democratic President calling the shots, at the time, people like Kerry, back then, and yes, Jane Fonda, and many other Liberals, were right on target, and correct to demand change. Fifty-eight thousand American troops, countless others, suffered, and died because the policies of the United States were grossly flawed. The Vietnamese, were in the midst of a Civil War, and would have fought till the last man died, as was stated by their leader. Vietnam, was a good example of waste, and destruction, for no return value. Every single day, that our people die in Iraq, represents to me, the same pointless waste. Americans shouldn't be condemned, IMO, for acknowledging reality. Iraq truly was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
12-03-2006, 09:58 AM
TAP-TAP-TAP...sid