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View Full Version : History/rationale of jump shot rule?



Shaft
12-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Does anybody know why a "scooping" jump shot is illegal, while a "pounding" jumpshot is legal? (Given a choice between the two with respect to almost certain alteration/damage to my cloth, the scooping jump shot seems less dangerous to me.)

Billy_Bob
12-05-2006, 10:47 AM
[From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard_techniques ]

"All authoritative rule sources deem it illegal to "scoop" under the cue ball with the tip of the cue to fling it into the air (technically because it is illegal to contact the cue ball with the ferrule of the cue, and because the cue ball is struck twice, both of which are classic fouls)."

High speed video of scoop shot...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-1.htm

Deeman3
12-05-2006, 10:47 AM
My humble opinion is because it is a miscue. If you allows that, many position and other squib shots would come into play.

DeeMan

Rod
12-05-2006, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Shaft:</font><hr> Does anybody know why a "scooping" jump shot is illegal, while a "pounding" jumpshot is legal? (Given a choice between the two with respect to almost certain alteration/damage to my cloth, the scooping jump shot seems less dangerous to me.) <hr /></blockquote>

Keep in mind cues/tips (especially house cues) come in various stages. If the sharp edge of a ferrule catches the cloth you have one big divot or a small tear. Even if the tip is in good condition it can still take a small divot depending on force used. For that reason alone scooping is not allowed. The correct way only puts a small dent in the cloth, not remove material.

Rod

dr_dave
12-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Billy_Bob,

I'm glad you cited this video, because I think it brings up an interesting point about how rules are written. In the first shot in the clip, the cue tip appears to hit the ball and table cloth at nearly the same time. Judging from how the cue ball comes off the tip, I don't think it would be appropriate to call this shot a miscue. So should the shot be legal? No, if the rules explicitly state that "scoop shots" are illegal. But if rules just state that miscues are fouls, then the shot would be strictly legal. This is a good example of why people that write rules need to be very careful with their choice of words.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> [From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard_techniques ]

"All authoritative rule sources deem it illegal to "scoop" under the cue ball with the tip of the cue to fling it into the air (technically because it is illegal to contact the cue ball with the ferrule of the cue, and because the cue ball is struck twice, both of which are classic fouls)."

High speed video of scoop shot...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-1.htm
<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
12-05-2006, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> My humble opinion is because it is a miscue. If you allows that, many position and other squib shots would come into play.<hr /></blockquote>
DeeMan,

Would you call the first shot in HSV A.1 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-1.htm) a miscue? I wouldn't. But it is still an illegal "scoop shot."

Dave

Bob_Jewett
12-05-2006, 12:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Shaft:</font><hr> Does anybody know why a "scooping" jump shot is illegal, while a "pounding" jumpshot is legal? (Given a choice between the two with respect to almost certain alteration/damage to my cloth, the scooping jump shot seems less dangerous to me.) <hr /></blockquote>
There are two kinds of "scooping" jump shot. One is with a miscue. In the other, the tip/ferrule is on the cloth at the time of contact and there is not necessarily a miscue. In fact, the great snooker player Joe Davis recommended the latter technique in one of his books. (These days, it is illegal in snooker to make the cue ball pass over another ball by any means to get a good hit.) You slide the stick along the cloth to the base of the cue ball.

The cue ball leaves the table on nearly all shots. That's because the stick is elevated some on nearly all shots and the cloth is at least slightly bouncy. It is more or less a natural extension to permit jumping by more or less normal strokes with extra elevation.

A scoop (miscue or sliding) is a very different technique from a normal shot.

About 1980 someone introduced jump rods. These were very short rods with a phenolic or similar very hard, rounded end. Any idiot could jump with such a device. Pretty soon they got outlawed, reportedly due to table damage. Jump sticks closer to normal sticks were allowed. Now they seem to have evolved back to phenolic tips which seem to be illegal by the current rules.

One of the things I think the IPT did right was to forbid special jump sticks.

But to really answer your question, I think we need to ask Shamos or at least look through a century of rule books.

Fran Crimi
12-05-2006, 01:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody know why a "scooping" jump shot is illegal, while a "pounding" jumpshot is legal? <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, because it's considered cheating to scoop under the ball. When you shoot a scoop shot, the cue ball rides up on to the ferrule, thus helping the cue ball to become airborne. Therefore, when attempting jump shots, touching the cue ball with the ferrule of the cue is a foul. Therefore all jump shots must be executed with the cue ball struck at or above the equator line.

However, if the shooter is attempting a draw shot, it is not illegal for the cue ball to touch the ferrule of the cue, as with a miscue, because it is not the intent of a draw shot for the cue ball to become airborne. In that case, a cue ball riding up the ferrule, off the table isn't helping the shot.

Fran

Deeman3
12-05-2006, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> My humble opinion is because it is a miscue. If you allows that, many position and other squib shots would come into play.<hr /></blockquote>
DeeMan,

Would you call the first shot in HSV A.1 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-1.htm) a miscue? I wouldn't. But it is still an illegal "scoop shot."

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dave,

Yes, I would. Of course, I think chicken gizzards are digestable. Now, that being said, the reason in my opinion, that the ball did not do the typival miscue thing is a simple matter of being trapped...not between the table and the tip but between the tip and gravity. If, for instance, the ball had not departed upward, the tip would not have remained on the ball and "grabbed" it like occurs on most offcenter shots. It just escaped and overcame gravity before a miscue could occur.

If you had that same shot or offset of tip on a side english shot, the ball would slip sideways and be declared a miscue. I beleive the only legal jump shot is by drivng the ball into the table (with the exception of the jump off a rail). To declare otherwise, again in my simple mind, would allow many other shots to be made that we now don't allow. I don't have a Wie table but if you can think of a small cut at very close range to a corner pocket that would result in a scrath in the opposite corner pocket. In a bar you can trap that ball with outside english and actually miscue your way up table but no one is the wiser, at least in the places I am forced to go. I don't think a miscue is a sound. It is an action of the cue not grabbing the object ball but slipping off. I may be wrong as I have not written that many books, at least on pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>

DeeMan
now punish my uneducated right leaing frontal cortex....

dr_dave
12-05-2006, 01:49 PM
Deeman,

You make a good argument and tell a good story. I guess it all boils down to how you define "miscue." I'm with you ... a scoop should not be allowed, whether it is a "miscue" or not.

Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> My humble opinion is because it is a miscue. If you allows that, many position and other squib shots would come into play.<hr /></blockquote>
DeeMan,

Would you call the first shot in HSV A.1 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-1.htm) a miscue? I wouldn't. But it is still an illegal "scoop shot."

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dave,

Yes, I would. Of course, I think chicken gizzards are digestable. Now, that being said, the reason in my opinion, that the ball did not do the typival miscue thing is a simple matter of being trapped...not between the table and the tip but between the tip and gravity. If, for instance, the ball had not departed upward, the tip would not have remained on the ball and "grabbed" it like occurs on most offcenter shots. It just escaped and overcame gravity before a miscue could occur.

If you had that same shot or offset of tip on a side english shot, the ball would slip sideways and be declared a miscue. I beleive the only legal jump shot is by drivng the ball into the table (with the exception of the jump off a rail). To declare otherwise, again in my simple mind, would allow many other shots to be made that we now don't allow. I don't have a Wie table but if you can think of a small cut at very close range to a corner pocket that would result in a scrath in the opposite corner pocket. In a bar you can trap that ball with outside english and actually miscue your way up table but no one is the wiser, at least in the places I am forced to go. I don't think a miscue is a sound. It is an action of the cue not grabbing the object ball but slipping off. I may be wrong as I have not written that many books, at least on pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>

DeeMan
now punish my uneducated right leaing frontal cortex.... <hr /></blockquote>

Shaft
12-05-2006, 02:58 PM
Many thanks to all who took the trouble to write in. Also, big kudos to Dr. Dave (who has probably heard this a gazillion times) for the great videos on his website.

dr_dave
12-05-2006, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Shaft:</font><hr> Many thanks to all who took the trouble to write in. Also, big kudos to Dr. Dave (who has probably heard this a gazillion times) for the great videos on his website.<hr /></blockquote>
You're welcome, and thank you very much. Regardless of how many times I might get kudos, it still feels good to be reminded periodically that people are benefiting from the work I do.

Regards,
Dave