View Full Version : Playing for money
12-05-2006, 11:56 PM
Is it better to just play for a certin amount per set or to lock up an play a lot of sets.The more i play the better players they seem to wont to lock up a certin amount.
12-06-2006, 06:01 AM
Lock up the cash=payday......randyg
12-06-2006, 06:50 AM
They like you so much that they are being nice to you.
12-06-2006, 07:01 AM
Locking up means that you are LOCKED IN for a certain amount of cash, to win or lose.
There are different ways to play & you will have to find the one that you are comfortable with. Playing one set at a time, limits the amount of money you can lose. Posting for 3 or 4 sets, can mean the better player has a semi-insured payday.... I don't know the rules around your area.
Example >> In a race to 4 set, if you are at the 3 mark & your opponent gets to the 4 mark first, you have lost by a one game difference.
In a 4 ahead set, your opponent has to beat you by 4 games ahead. This example is more difficult for the opponent.
Could be, your group of better players want to secure the final outcome, which may not give you any exit.
12-07-2006, 11:10 AM
a better antidote to gain self confidence...of course, start with small bets first then on to $5/game or higher if you already 'feel' the momentum of your rhythm....
12-07-2006, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nineball33:</font><hr> Is it better to just play for a certin amount per set or to lock up an play a lot of sets.The more i play the better players they seem to wont to lock up a certin amount. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">
Gambling is a personal thing but I believe it can add some focus to your game. If you enjoy gambling for the challenge and it helps your game, you should do it. If it is primarily a money making activity you had better be a solid player.
I prefer playing races with posted money as it offers a sure win or loss and prevents long evenings of going back and forth over the same $100 bill. Each set is it's own battle and you can get out at any time with no pressure to stay just to swap less money than the table time costs. Posting the cash makes sure you get your money although I have not been stiffed for substancial money in many years. </font color>
12-08-2006, 02:42 PM
I agree with DeeMan3. Anything you can do to add FOCUS to your game will benefit you long term. But assuming you are not a top player...NEVER play "winner breaks" even if you get a huge spot.
I'm told that Shannon the Cannon used to give the ONE ball to shortstops and he did it because he knew the opponent didn't figure to win 6-8 racks in a row but it was INEVITABLE that Shannon would before long.
Think about it. How many times does a shortstop fail to make a ball on the break? AT LEAST 1/3 of the time...at which point the top player is the favorite to win and then regain the break.
Or, how many times when the shortstop DOES make a ball on the break is he left with a push or safety on the 1 Ball. Answer? A LOT.
Against really top pros or road players, there just is no weight that can possibly save the shortstop...especially in ahead sets with a winner breaks format.
INSIST on alternate breaks and that way you at least have a shot at sinking the 9 or your weight ball every other rack!
12-08-2006, 04:31 PM
Maybe you haven't been stiffed because you've been living in little east Texas towns where reputation matters.
In Dallas there seems to be an idea that, once you're labeled as a welcher and your action dries up, you can just go across town and hang out at a different room for awhile. I seldom gamble, but Sid V has plenty of stories of former Click's "regulars" who never come in anymore (some due to his "influence").
Last time I gambled, I was stiffed for a $20 4-ahead race. I didn't want to gamble, but allowed myself to be badgered into it. I cleaned the guy's clock 5 to 1 and the bum ran out the door and drove away as I was over the table shooting my last two balls. That was well over a year ago.
If you're ever in Dallas playing a short black bastard named JoJo, make him post up. Then steal a $20 off his pile and tell him it belongs to a friend of yours /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
12-08-2006, 05:00 PM
That's a good idea. Even at the local level, I'll give it an experimental try. I agree that the focus, and I call most any range of comfortable money so-as not to risk the rent money, a cheap, self-lesson on seeing what your nerves are made of. Thing to do though is not get suckered into double or nothing, and mainly(as I have learned more than once), both players post up and winner collects after each bout. It is amazing how some people whom you would never suspect as a rat, will skate and never show up again if there is a coin marking the evening's wins, and it happens gets as little deep in $$$...sid~~~ain't shy about gambling for the experience alone, and getting more street wise with each "JoJo" that suckers him
12-08-2006, 05:20 PM
Unlike Sid posted, I don't gamble for the experience, at my age it's for the money. I did get stiffed in Longview but ended up with the guy's stick. I was gonna let him slide with a verbal hammering but DeeWoman wanted the stick, what can you say? Well, it's another one in the collection that'll never be played with. I guess, if I ever do play a nerve set (haven't since I was a young Memphian) I could carry one of those sticks and "regrettfully give it up."
I even post up the money here in little rural Alabama and usually get a regular to hold the stakes. I did that a few weeks ago and think I got shorted but I don't know if it was the player or the stake holder. Lesson, count the stakes. It gets pretty normal, however, if you put up for instance, a $100 bill and a guy hands you a stack of 20's, you figure it's a hundred bucks and hand it over. Well, I can't be sure but either I was getting shorted a 20 each set of I won less sets than I thought. Oh, well I guess you could say us older guys might not can count much better than we play... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I do remember a guy trying to run out on me in York, PA. but local knowledge was on my side that time as the bathroom he ran into had no window!!!
I do seem to get it that guys who can't really play are more likely to jump ship on you as maybe they were just overstating their case or game. I don't ever remember a good player taking flight.
Did you know Cleo Vaughn from Blythville? Ran a book on football games but played high one pocket. I have a good story about him and James Brown I'll relate sometime. I know Cleo has to be dead now. Hell, he looked dead in 1973!
Come on up to Derby City. What the hell else have you got to do?
12-08-2006, 10:58 PM
I realize two thing about playing for money Dee, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but if you parlay to play deeper talent along the way and don't over-match yourself foolishly, you will be short at the end of the year, about everyone does. To me, I can't seem to hammer into marginally weaker in talent with the same vigor to take cash. I'm not implying that you do scout out that kind of player, I'm just generalizing. Thing is, if I were worried about my cash, or I dwelled on needing to win, I'd be more serious. Today, it is indeed two things why I gamble. 1. It is interesting 2. When I excel with my game, even if losing, I learn a little more. Don't get me wrong, I detest losing against some bums, but usually I get most of it back somewhere down the road.
Some people simply can't stand the idea of losing any cash, and that is a handicap IMO. If you don't "put it out there" and test yourself for a little dough once in a while, you are missing something in the school of pool toughness, especially when your wager is centuries. That's about my limit unless I get the guy really stuck. All in all, that's when the game seems to get a little easier from most of the people I play cuz I understand they are tight under those circumstances, and I just forget about it and calm down. A hundred is cheap to many here, I know, but a man's got to understand where the pressure point is in making his or her limit.
Not being serious is most likely my one big fault in pool. A stupid as it sounds, it's more fun to swap money with friends and players and not sting anybody too hard. That's just me...sid
12-12-2006, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I realize two thing about playing for money Dee, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but if you parlay to play deeper talent along the way and don't over-match yourself foolishly, you will be short at the end of the year, about everyone does. <font color="blue"> Sid,many of us keep pretty exacting detail of what we make or lose. It may be obsessive but I know where I am at and would not play for money if was booking losers very often. </font color> To me, I can't seem to hammer into marginally weaker in talent with the same vigor to take cash. I'm not implying that you do scout out that kind of player, I'm just generalizing. <font color="blue"> You know, in a way, your slant is right. I learned many years ago that risk is controlled by you. Why play people who can run racks when there are people who can't. I now some do this for entertainment itself and that is fine. Yes, you have to learn to win against weaker players just like you have to learn the difference in winning a couple of rounds in a tournament and being competitive at the end. </font color> Thing is, if I were worried about my cash, or I dwelled on needing to win, I'd be more serious. <font color="blue"> To me, worrying about my cash has little to do with the game. It is all a calculated risk each time you match up and if you keep the balance in your favor, you will win over time. </font color> Today, it is indeed two things why I gamble. 1. It is interesting 2. When I excel with my game, even if losing, I learn a little more. Don't get me wrong, I detest losing against some bums, but usually I get most of it back somewhere down the road. <font color="blue"> Then playing for money is just entertainment and a little of the learning process for you. </font color>
Some people simply can't stand the idea of losing any cash, and that is a handicap IMO. If you don't "put it out there" and test yourself for a little dough once in a while, you are missing something in the school of pool toughness, especially when your wager is centuries. <font color="blue"> The amount is not important unless it puts you out of your comfort zone. If it does, you either have to play until it becomes normal or somehow less important to you. </font color> That's about my limit unless I get the guy really stuck. All in all, that's when the game seems to get a little easier from most of the people I play cuz I understand they are tight under those circumstances, and I just forget about it and calm down. A hundred is cheap to many here, I know, but a man's got to understand where the pressure point is in making his or her limit. <font color="blue"> It's just as important to understand you opponent's attitude as well. What, for instance, is a hundred to him? Last night I played a kid eight ball on a bar table for $20 per game. He was payiong another guy for $5 and played lights out. I could see he was a shooter but played a little out of control, didn't move real well. It was late the tournament was over I had to get up early so I declined to play him. he asked it I'd play for $20 and I agreed. It's not much but you can make a little even at $20. The kid could not make three balls. He lost 4 straight, went to his car/truck and got $120 more and proceeded to lose that in 6 straight games. Was it the $20? I am not sure. it could have been the beer but I think he just reached his limit on cash. The funny thing is, I did not let up as I didn't think he had much on him and I know $200 is not a big score but I didn't think I would get much more than $60 or so out of him when we started.
By the way, Tori won five straight games against a banger for a beer each and actually didn't cost me anything for the night..... </font color>
Not being serious is most likely my one big fault in pool. A stupid as it sounds, it's more fun to swap money with friends and players and not sting anybody too hard. That's just me...sid <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are comfortable with it as a hobby to keep interset up. This game is one of incredible focus, attention to detail that most ignore, some genetics and a lot of people have a lot of reasons for playing. I play because, so far, it the one sport/game that age has not hurt my ability in doing. The money makes it cheaper to go out several nights a week. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>
12-12-2006, 11:24 AM
Dee, you're approach to gambling sounds very similar
to mine. I will definitely roll the dice when I'm
in a strange poolroom but I usually have a pretty good
pulse on whether I should be winning or not.
One time not. Drinking. Played Mike McClain, a pretty
decent shortstop from Pa. & was too fuzzyheaded &
egotistical to figure out I was over-matched.
12-12-2006, 12:04 PM
I submitted my Doctoral dissertation on finance to the prestigious, MAUP -- the Interregional Academy of Personnel Management, a major private university system in the Ukraine.
This is the same learned body that awarded David Duke his doctorate in history. His dissertation topic was, predictably, "Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism."
My thesis was on "The closed monetary system, with respect to Gambling on Pool" While it is not actually closed, like a seat on the NYSE, full shares of the fund are too expensive for the avg investor.
Amongst the major players, the funds just circulate, and change hands every so often. I.E. -Keith "won" $4k one night, "lost" $6k the following night. Monies are withdrawn from the fund from time to time, for investments in horse racing, sports betting,etc. It is replaced by the host of many small investors (the $200 limit folks), some of whom get discouraged easily, and drop out of the fund, sans their initial investment. We don't consider them "fund members" since they haven't paid the "dues" of the senior members.
Early on, in it's formative years, the fund grew quickly attracting many new player's with the release of the docudrama "The Hustler". The fund remains somewhat static today, due to current market conditions, and the occasional need to pay rent.
Most of the players that I know that gamble heavily.....do so more for the thrill of gambling. And the thrill is proportional to the risk involved. Winning just allows one to keep on feeling the near orgasmic high.
Then there are those few folks like yourself....that actually withdraw $$ on a regular basis from the fund,devaluing the fund shares, and costing myself a doctorate.
12-12-2006, 12:14 PM
Yes, ego is the main enemy of profitable pool to the investor vs. gambler.
12-12-2006, 12:33 PM
You have it nailed! There are the players who trade money and what we used to call Producers, guys with a job who mostly contributed to the hedge fund. Funny you should mention a particular player (naughty of you) but that reminded me of seeing, more then once, a guy play world class pool for a week, get the cash and be busted two (2) hours later over a dice/poker/horse race.....
That's one of the reasons I respected Johhny Archer from day one. He actually treated it as a business as most will say they do but few can stand the temptation. That being said, I may work all month at three or four night s week to get an extra tax free amount in my pocket. Why would I ever give that to Eugene Stalev? Ego??? So, I broke the learning, earning and yearning curve in the last third of my pool playing life by, strangely, not playing better but playing with a lot less ego. Now, admittedly, once a year or so I do take on a few higher risks but it's done on money I've dedicated to that purpose and once every few years someone goes off and I have a nice year. Now, my worse years are pretty good by compulsive gambler's standards (No, I'm not one but appreciate their contributions). I won't retire (Hey, I've done that once)from any pool winnings but I also have many "things" I would have had to spend work earned dollars on. Fortunately, my real career has provided for me. And as that tired saying goes, money won is twice as.....well, you know.
When I was 20 I HAD to play everyone for everything, especially the best players. Now I can play whomever I want, my choice. Patience and lack of visable ego make you a dangerous character in a world of ball shooters.
12-12-2006, 12:58 PM
Funny you should mention Mr. Stalev. He was at one of the Reno tournaments I attended, and the "buzz" was all about him...claims like "I saw him practice for 3 hrs and never miss a ball".
Really good player though, and enjoyed watching him play. He apparently stayed up for most of the night, and just wasn't the same player the next day. I haven't really seen his name since.I see Colin has some match videos of him on his site.
I once asked a good player/gambler why he didn't play xxx and he said why should he match up with this guy, play for hours, and come out maybe a couple of games ahead...when there were easier fish to fry.He could win more in a half hour, with less sweat.
My favorite gambling story ...and I forgot both names...anyway early on in the match, the guy plays a great safe, cue ball on one end rail, ob on the other end...and the other player spin,slices it in. Guy starts putting his cues away, over his backer's protests...saying..."where did you want me to leave the cue ball?"
He knew he was over-matched....I've seen a lot of players that didn't realize that until they went broke...
12-12-2006, 02:08 PM
Stalev had the same impression on me the first time I saw him in action for money. Later, practicing, he looked like a reincarnation of Eddie Taylor, although Eddie was still with us. Anyway, he banks, crossbanks, makes kisses disappear with slow smooth english and, of course, does not miss a ball. He draws a drunken and hung over (Name held to protect this person)_______ ______. I book one on Eugene for $400 on the side with the biggest loser bettor in Pennsylvania and the drunk runs Stalev over 9-3. Lemonade? Nope. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.
I love to tell the story of Marcus from Auburn, a really fine nine ball player who would kill everyone if he'd stay off his cell phone during shots. He is a player and will go against the Ghost at a $100 a whack and make money all night. I had the best of him in a nine ball match before I knew him at all. He quit me in nine ball and offered to play one pocket. I was only a few hundred ahead but didn't really want to stay so I promised to play him one game and then leave. He agreed and broke. In a fluke, he broke a hair harder than he intended and made one in his hole, then ran out. I paid him and said, "Damn, what a hustler? At least I'd TRY to fade a little in my first game." I broke it down and told him I'd never play him one hole again. Now, everytime I see him I remind him he hits 1.000 against me in one pocket and if he doesn't want to have his cover blown he'll give me the C note back. We both get a kick out of it but, you know, I have played him many times since but never one pocket again. I don't need to see more of his one hole game, at least against me. He actually cringes as I say this each time and swears I have cost him thousands in frightening off his one pocket trade. I only do this wolf around folks that know us. You never want to crap in someone elses toy box.
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