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HarryDC
12-09-2006, 06:14 AM
Hey Jake,

Have no idea weather the message is positive or negative but I hope the players get paid. I hope KT anounces a revised schedule for 2007? That would be as meaningful as paying the players.


Dear IPT Player,

As promised, the December 8th installment of prize money has been sent
out. We appreciate your patience and support during this time. I thank you for all the positive emails and encouragement from many of you IPT players. Stay tuned, there will be more news to report soon.

Very truly yours,

Kevin Trudeau, Founder

Scott Lee
12-09-2006, 09:32 PM
Wow...the players now have 20% of what they were owed more than 3 months ago. What a standup guy that KT is! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

Rich R.
12-10-2006, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Wow...the players now have 20% of what they were owed more than 3 months ago. What a standup guy that KT is! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Come on Scott, let's be accurate here. It is 22%. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

jjinfla
12-10-2006, 07:34 AM
When I heard that the players were not paid for Reno I thought that was it. They would get zero money, nada, zilch, and KT would file for bankruptcy and then sail away on his ship to go play somewhere else.

Now they have received 22% and most likely will get another 11% in January. While that is not everything they were promised it sure is better than zero.

Where is all that positive thinking that instructors are always talking about? Think positive here people. Perhaps more money will come after January. Ever hear of an installment plan? I believe Earl settled for an installment plan when he ran 11 racks in 9-ball and won that million dollars. He set precedent with that settlement and now all pool players must abide by that precedent.

Rodney will have received $33,000 after he receives this check and $49,500 after he receives his check in January.
Surely that will be enough to cover his new car, or whatever he went out and bought.

What other tournament has paid close to that amount?

The Florida Pro Tour Championship is going to be held this weekend. If they have 64 players (I really am expecting a lot more) then they will collect $9,600 in entry fees and with the $15,000 added the total prize fund will be $24,600.

A mere pittance compared to what Rodney received. Yet the players will all be there fighting for every crumb.

KT should have held $50,000 tournaments. He would have been hailed as a wonderful man, saviour of pool, the best thing that ever happened to pool, etc, etc.

I still can't get the picture of "dignified" pool players crawling around on top of a pool table to take a shot out of my mind. As Archer said, they looked like monkeys. And the monkeys were punished for their behavior.

Jake

Rich R.
12-10-2006, 07:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Rodney will have received $33,000 after he receives this check and $49,500 after he receives his check in January.
Surely that will be enough to cover his new car, or whatever he went out and bought.

What other tournament has paid close to that amount?
<hr /></blockquote>
Jake, it doesn't matter how much Rodney or the other players receive, in comparison to other tournaments. The point is, if they only get one more of the installment checks, they are still getting only one third of what they were promised.
The latest word from KT is that the players will be paid in full. I hope he stands by that statement.

P.S.
If KT decides to lower the prize fund for future tournaments, I have no problem with that. However, the players should be paid what they are due for past tournaments.

Scott Lee
12-11-2006, 05:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
Where is all that positive thinking that instructors are always talking about? Think positive here people. Perhaps more money will come after January. Ever hear of an installment plan? I believe Earl settled for an installment plan when he ran 11 racks in 9-ball and won that million dollars. He set precedent with that settlement and now all pool players must abide by that precedent.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake...You're talking apples and oranges here. The prize money package for the PCA tournaments, was totally separate from the BONUS prize, if someone ran 10 racks. It was always understand, BY THE PLAYERS, that anybody who managed to accomplish that, would be paid $50K/yr for 20 yrs., as an annuity. Earl was pissed because the insurance company declined to pay AT ALL, saying some b.s., like the policy had not been signed properly, and trying to escape, because Earl won the money on the first day, of the first PCA event. This had nothing to do with tournament winnings, and the players all got paid ALL of their winnings, from that event. I truly hope KT comes through, and pays off all the players everything they are owed, but if you believe Rodney is happy about NOT getting the other $100K he is owed, you're mistaken. The point is, the money is three months late, with no date in sight, on when, or even IF, it will be paid off. That's total b.s., imo.

Anybody who has read my posts on the IPT, for the past year and a half, knows that I was one of the strongest supporters out there, taking the high road, and suggesting that we give KT the benefit of the doubt, and watch what turns out. He has slit his own throat with his latest shenanigans. I sure wouldn't want to owe 200 pool players a total of $2,000,000! That's a lot of tough guys to be pissed at you. jmo

Scott Lee

jjinfla
12-11-2006, 06:22 AM
Scott,

Rodney may be pissed as you say but it is because he lost to Efren. That final match was within his grasp and he would have won $500,000. That would have made him famous and put him on the front cover of every pool magazine out there. Sponsors would have been beating down the door to get him to sign with them. Rodney would have been set for life. That is what he is upset about. Please don't put words into Rodney's mouth that can be construed as a threat. I believe he still is on probation and that might be a violation. Rodney is a nice gentle, caring father now.

Pool players being pissed at KT is the least of KT's worries. They couldn't find him even if they tried. Then they would try and yell him to death.

Getting beat out of some money is the rule in pool. Either the player does it to someone else or it gets done to him. No sense writing a book on pool stories if you can't write about some close calls or swindles. Books are replete with stories on how the hero pulls a fast one over some fish. So in that case KT will be the hero. He pulled a big sting on everyone. Actually, I think he just overestimated the world of pool and his business venture just failed. Players thought that KT would just keep tossing money at them and that all they had to do is play pool. They didn't realize that in order for it to succeed they had to work with KT. Out of the 200 players how many do you think actually actively promoted the IPT and tried to get people to come to the matches? Maybe one?

And how many people have you and other instructors convinced that with enough lessons they could become the next Efren? When in fact you know that they are hopeless cases.

Promises. Promises. Everyone makes promises. That's why when we make a deal we forget about promises and get it in writing on a contract. Did the players have ANYTHING in writing?

Odds are that the IPT will file for bankruptcy next year. It doesn't matter how much money KT has. All that matters is how much money the IPT has. The players joined the IPT and nothing says that KT has to keep bankrolling the IPT.

Jake

randyg
12-11-2006, 07:00 AM
I think the word is "Wolf" him to death....randyg

HarryDC
12-11-2006, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Scott,

Rodney may be pissed as you say but it is because he lost to Efren. That final match was within his grasp and he would have won $500,000. That would have made him famous and put him on the front cover of every pool magazine out there. Sponsors would have been beating down the door to get him to sign with them. Rodney would have been set for life. That is what he is upset about. Please don't put words into Rodney's mouth that can be construed as a threat. I believe he still is on probation and that might be a violation. Rodney is a nice gentle, caring father now.

Pool players being pissed at KT is the least of KT's worries. They couldn't find him even if they tried. Then they would try and yell him to death.

Getting beat out of some money is the rule in pool. Either the player does it to someone else or it gets done to him. No sense writing a book on pool stories if you can't write about some close calls or swindles. Books are replete with stories on how the hero pulls a fast one over some fish. So in that case KT will be the hero. He pulled a big sting on everyone. Actually, I think he just overestimated the world of pool and his business venture just failed. Players thought that KT would just keep tossing money at them and that all they had to do is play pool. They didn't realize that in order for it to succeed they had to work with KT. Out of the 200 players how many do you think actually actively promoted the IPT and tried to get people to come to the matches? Maybe one?

And how many people have you and other instructors convinced that with enough lessons they could become the next Efren? When in fact you know that they are hopeless cases.

Promises. Promises. Everyone makes promises. That's why when we make a deal we forget about promises and get it in writing on a contract. Did the players have ANYTHING in writing?

Odds are that the IPT will file for bankruptcy next year. It doesn't matter how much money KT has. All that matters is how much money the IPT has. The players joined the IPT and nothing says that KT has to keep bankrolling the IPT.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake

The worst thing that could happen is that men's pool returns to just the way it was. I like you wonder where all the positive energy went.

I for one hope that IPT posts a schedule for 2007 even if it is with a reduced prize fund. My favorite players CW and "Velvet" will still have a chance to play for more money than before.

I can't believe that the players want to return to the $2000 added tournament in the dives. I am looking forward to the 2007 schedule and hoping to see one. If I don't I will stay with the great women's tour the WPBA and the Men's Florida Pro Tour. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

HarryDC

Bob_Jewett
12-11-2006, 04:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> ... I believe Earl settled for an installment plan when he ran 11 racks in 9-ball and won that million dollars. He set precedent with that settlement and now all pool players must abide by that precedent.... <hr /></blockquote>
I suppose there is some chance you're not kidding in the above. When Earl's independent actions start determining case law in the US, it's time to move to some other country.

If you were kidding, you need to use more smileys for those of us who are humor impaired.

jjinfla
12-11-2006, 05:20 PM
Well Bob, yes it was sorta tongue firmly embedded in cheek type of comment but I do believe that case law does consist of previous settlements regardless of the personalities of the parties involved.

Jake

Scott Lee
12-12-2006, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Scott,

And how many people have you and other instructors convinced that with enough lessons they could become the next Efren? When in fact you know that they are hopeless cases.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Wow...This is the biggest BS statement I've ever heard! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Is that what all teachers are supposed to say to their students...whether pool, high school, college. or whatever? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm surprised that you have the gall to even SAY that to me! I have NEVER EVER told someone they could be the next Efren, with or without lessons...and I firmly disbelieve that ANYONE is a hopeless case. Someone's individual skill, or potential skill improvement, is due to many factors...only one of which is quality instruction. Most of the pros out there have had no formal instruction, but made it to the top anyway, with persistence and longevity. I frequently help provide a path and a shortcut to permanent improvement. As far as my own ability to convey information in a positive and informative manner, my students speak for themselves. Perhaps you should read some of what others have said about me, both here and on AzBilliards (I can't believe you haven't). Are there some teachers (in all categories) who browbeat or 'suppress' potential abilities in people trying to learn? Certainly. Are they the norm? I would sure hope not. However, with the state of American education standards vs. the rest of the world, we certainly lag behind in a lot ways. I happen to pride myself on being "one of the best pool instructors anywhere"!

Scott Lee

randyg
12-12-2006, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Scott,

And how many people have you and other instructors convinced that with enough lessons they could become the next Efren? When in fact you know that they are hopeless cases.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Wow...This is the biggest BS statement I've ever heard! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Is that what all teachers are supposed to say to their students...whether pool, high school, college. or whatever? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm surprised that you have the gall to even SAY that to me! I have NEVER EVER told someone they could be the next Efren, with or without lessons...and I firmly disbelieve that ANYONE is a hopeless case. Someone's individual skill, or potential skill improvement, is due to many factors...only one of which is quality instruction. Most of the pros out there have had no formal instruction, but made it to the top anyway, with persistence and longevity. I frequently help provide a path and a shortcut to permanent improvement. As far as my own ability to convey information in a positive and informative manner, my students speak for themselves. Perhaps you should read some of what others have said about me, both here and on AzBilliards (I can't believe you haven't). Are there some teachers (in all categories) who browbeat or 'suppress' potential abilities in people trying to learn? Certainly. Are they the norm? I would sure hope not. However, with the state of American education standards vs. the rest of the world, we certainly lag behind in a lot ways. I happen to pride myself on being "one of the best pool instructors anywhere"!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>


It's so hard to speak for other Instructors that I have never watched teach. But I do know how good Scott is. He's not in anyone's bracket. He's one of the best....SPF=randyg

jjinfla
12-12-2006, 07:33 PM
Oh cut it out, you guys aren't really that dense now are you? You know darn well what I mean.

Ever take on an SL2 that is still an SL2 5 years later?

Qtec
12-13-2006, 05:34 AM
Progression in pool - or any sport- is not entirely dependant on talent.
You seem to have the idea that all pool instructors are con-men! Ready and willing to take every client for all they have got!
No instructor would ever tell a player they could be the 'next Efren' if they didn't believe it to be true.

Anyway, if a kid had a lot of talent, you would say 'you can be BETTER than Ef'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec

Brian in VA
12-13-2006, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Oh cut it out, you guys aren't really that dense now are you? You know darn well what I mean.

Ever take on an SL2 that is still an SL2 5 years later?

<hr /></blockquote>

I'm sure they have. The fact that they are an SL2 5 years later is hardly the fault of the instructor! If a student is unable or unwilling to apply what they've learned yet still wants to take lessons I don't think it's up to the instructor to say, "You need to take up a different game and quit this one. I'm concerned that you aren't getting any better." It's possible the student is requesting and paying for the lessons for reasons known only to them. And that's their choice. I can't, for one second, imagine it's because the instructor is telling them that life changing improvement is just one more lesson away. I'm hoping you don't believe that either.

You're off base on this one Jake!

Brian in VA

jjinfla
12-13-2006, 07:14 AM
Not at all Qtec, in fact I have always been pro instruction.

I used to take Karate lessons twice a week for a couple of years and I enjoyed them. Attaining a black belt was never in my reach and I did learn that there sure are a lot of tough people out there.

One day the star of Love Boat came in and started taking private lessons and actually thought she could become a black belt in a few days. That there was some magic pill. The instructor was happy to take her money and in a couple weeks she left town.

Well, there is no magic pill in pool either. It takes a lot of hard work. And there is no guarantee that the lessons will make the student successful.

Anyway, I forget what point I was trying to make. Maybe the fact that there are instructors out there who promise (not in words, but in actions) that they will make the student a much better player. And just as they make promises so did KT make promises to the players. Some promises are better than other promises.

So, would I be wasting my money if I took lessons from Fast Larry? He sure can do a lot of tricks.

Jake

Sid_Vicious
12-13-2006, 07:58 AM
I catch the drift. Instructions, to me, after personally getting school time years back, and then private, one on one time later...the individual, hour by hour(my continuance decision each time) was the "fairest buck-bang", no doubt. Struggling, fresh players feel the energy from group schools and then, IMO get a dependency of sorts to cycle on with revisiting. It mecomes a money-mill, and many of them are the prey. Now I will say that at a particular level, and a full understanding of where you can and can not excel to in talent, there is immense value in all instruction. I agree that there are a lot of people being taken for a ride, BEST phrase to coin IMO, and yet it is their choice, but sometimes it becomes a trap within the sheer mode of operation of some formal schools and instructors. It is addicting to see instant results only to find three days later that you lost it all again. Anyway, I'd promote to a new player to find a trusting person to instruct on an hourly basis, then take some time away to see if it sticks, anf then decide to continue. Costly, multi day classes just don't fit for me, "too much sugar for a dime." sid

Deeman3
12-13-2006, 09:43 AM
Jake,

I think it is a bit unfair to catagorize instructors as lying or comparing them to K.T. Instruction is a funny thing. Half of the bargain is the ability of the instructor and the other half the ability/committment/mental acuity of the student. In most skills, say driving a car, most people are reasonable in their expectations of the resiults and, unless they are total clowns, they can learn to drive in a few lessons.

Even the very best pool instrucotr can't really tell what he can teach you or transfer to you at the beginning. Of course, he has a product to sell and not many of us would say, "I can teach you, but by the law of averages, you will probably only progress a small amount unless you do a lot of things to help me here." It's hard enough to sell the need for quality instruction to many who want to spend their money on a stick that they absolutely have not need for. This being said, some are blessed wiht natural ability and some have great concentration skills, most of varying combinations of these. It is hard to hold an instructor accountable for the attention to detail a person brings to the table, so to speak.

If you are not a glutton for detail, you can only go so far in this game, not matter the instruction you recieve. If you think, as Dick said in another post, that you just shoot at the center fo the pocket, if you don't have outstanding mental toughness and the ability to "see" and learn, you will probably always be what we classify as a "C" player or below.

Do all people need instruction, probably not. You may even be able to judge who can benefit and who can't by watching their game a while. If you were in the diamond selling business and a customer said, "I want a $10,000 diamond for my wife." You might not say, "You know, I'm not sure a diamond is the best investment for your relationship. Maybe you should go waste your money on a new dishwasher."

Instruction is a business that I think serves a good purpose. Are all instructors going to make great players out of all their students? Nope, but I've always said if I learn one thing for a book I buy or a lesson I take, for me it has had value. I think most get some value from a good instructor and Scott is a good one. I do think many do not take full advantage of the lessons taught but, again, these people are not going to benefit as much from flying lessons as an attentive person might. I still see many folks who tell me how to shoot a game of pool even as they are handing me money! What makes us think the average clientel a pool instructor gets won't often fall into that category. When I paid Scott for my lesson, I knew he had not taught 500 things I didn't know. He did get me back in my better stroke and gave me some good drills to help keep it that way. What more could a player ask for?, a warrenty that I will get better when he leaves? Now, talk about unreasonable.

As I've said before, if you think you need an instructor to teach you how to get three rail position, you probably don't need an instructor, you need a therapist. JK /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan

Rich R.
12-13-2006, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Half of the bargain is the ability of the instructor and the other half the ability/commitment/mental acuity of the student. <hr /></blockquote>
Deeman, I think this sentence says it all.

I have had some instruction, but I was never told, before or after the lessons, that I would be the next Efren. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

My game improved after each lesson, but maybe not as much as it could have. However, the lack of improvement has nothing to do with the instruction I received. It has to do with my own "ability/commitment/mental acuity".

Will I ever take lessons again?
I may. I'm a little unpredictable when it comes to things like that. I certainly am not opposed to taking lessons.

Will I ever become the next Efren?
Definitely not. I don't think I would want to travel around the world, like he does. But, I'm having one heck of a good time playing pool and that is what it is all about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman3
12-13-2006, 10:46 AM
Rich,

Tap, tap, tap...

DeeMan

slim
12-13-2006, 10:55 AM
The insurance company tried to get out of it because thats the way they try and operate.
What they were saying...after the fact, 9's on the break were not racks run...short racks with combo's on the 9 were also not run, in their pencil pushing mind, not countable.
I have been in auto service repair for years, a first happened that only supports their "ways".
I had a good customer who had an extended warranty on his Expediton. The pinon seal was leaking and since this guy drives allot of dusty roads the buildup of seepage was very obvious, looked like a small bees nest. The insurance inspector came out, took pictures and sent them to corporate. Corporate denied the claim saying it was not an "active" dripping leak.
The contract said it covered leaks, they changed the 'semantics'/'rules' to NOT PAY. They didn't pay.
Like WC Fields "Looking For Loopholes".

Stretch
12-13-2006, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> The insurance company tried to get out of it because thats the way they try and operate.
What they were saying...after the fact, 9's on the break were not racks run...short racks with combo's on the 9 were also not run, in their pencil pushing mind, not countable.
I have been in auto service repair for years, a first happened that only supports their "ways".
I had a good customer who had an extended warranty on his Expediton. The pinon seal was leaking and since this guy drives allot of dusty roads the buildup of seepage was very obvious, looked like a small bees nest. The insurance inspector came out, took pictures and sent them to corporate. Corporate denied the claim saying it was not an "active" dripping leak.
The contract said it covered leaks, they changed the 'semantics'/'rules' to NOT PAY. They didn't pay.
Like WC Fields "Looking For Loopholes". <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, that's the way those scum bags operate. They will say no to almost everything knowing full well that at least 10 percent of those denied, either don't have the deep pockets, the time, or the stomach to fight for what is rightfully thiers. Easy money for them. St.

av84fun
12-13-2006, 12:10 PM
Qtec...&lt;&lt;No instructor would ever tell a player they could be the 'next Efren' if they didn't believe it to be true.&gt;&gt;

I can't imagine any competent instructor telling a student that he/she could be the next ANYONE!

"Natural talent", ability to learn and RETAIN information and dedication can be observed in the student/teacher environment...but HEART is NOT obvious and cannot be taught. Can the student hit a two rail kick safety is one question. The other is whether he/she can do it for the MATCH and $50 Grand in a Winner Take All Championship and the only way to answer that question is when/if the former student ever gets to that place.

The bottom half of the player rankings is full of players who have as much knowledge and talent as anyone else but who can't typically "close the deal" under immense pressure.

Regards,
Jim

jjinfla
12-13-2006, 07:29 PM
And of course there are the wonderful teachers in our schools. Is it my imagination or are there a lot of pedaphiles popping up in the schools masquerading as teachers. Anyone doubt that they would lie at the drop of a hat?

Where were all these drop dead georgous teachers when I was a kid in school? All I ran across was Sister Mary who could pick up a whole box of rulers in one swift motion. And Father "golden gloves" champ who would smile just before he punched you. And no one complained.

Yes, there are good and bad teachers.

The good thing about a good qualified instructor in pool is that he/she can quickly point out your shortcomings while you can still correct them. Otherwise you end up like McCready, Hopkins, Salvas. They still play great inspite of doing it wrong.

Jake

Sid_Vicious
12-13-2006, 07:50 PM
"And of course there are the wonderful teachers in our schools."

Wonderful means full of wonder, which I am with many I have bumped into over the years. Just to be clear, I am in your camp Friend. Being part Missourian, I am a natural doubter, especially salesman wishing to suck vast amounts of money from my wallet for so called "necessary" ingredients...sid

Qtec
12-13-2006, 09:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote av84fun:</font><hr> Qtec...&lt;&lt;No instructor would ever tell a player they could be the 'next Efren' if they didn't believe it to be true.&gt;&gt;

I can't imagine any competent instructor telling a student that he/she could be the next ANYONE! <font color="blue"> Ef is the No1. Basically what it means is that you can be the new No1, the best, the dominant player.
I also said, "Anyway, if a kid had a lot of talent, you would say 'you can be BETTER than Ef'.
Qtec
</font color>

"Natural talent", ability to learn and RETAIN information and dedication can be observed in the student/teacher environment...but HEART is NOT obvious and cannot be taught. <font color="blue"> Didn't i say, " Progression in pool - or any sport- is not entirely dependant on talent. Did you read my post?
</font color> Can the student hit a two rail kick safety is one question. The other is whether he/she can do it for the MATCH and $50 Grand in a Winner Take All Championship and the only way to answer that question is when/if the former student ever gets to that place. <font color="blue"> That subject deserves its own thread.</font color>

The bottom half of the player rankings is full of players who have as much knowledge and talent as anyone else but who can't typically "close the deal" under immense pressure.

Regards,
Jim
<hr /></blockquote>

I agree, but if you are trained from a young age you should be ready for the 50 grand. By the time a player reaches this level they should have a good grounding in how to deal with these kinds of situations.


Q.............Pressure stems from a lack of confidence.