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View Full Version : Jesus....born Sep 29, 5BC....died April 16, 73AD



cushioncrawler
12-25-2006, 08:35 PM
Born -- perhaps Sept 29, 5BC (but possibly 6BC)
Died -- April 16, 73AD, at a cave on Masada.
Buried -- July 7, 1969, at the tip of the Roman ramp, Masada.
......... Rest in Peace.

Shaft
12-26-2006, 05:25 AM
OK, CC, I'll bite. What does the discovery of several skeletons in a cave at the tip of the Roman ramp to Masada have to do with the burial of Jesus?

cushioncrawler
12-26-2006, 04:41 PM
I remember reading this stuff in "The Jesus Scroll" by Donovan Joyce (a journalist and writer from Melbourne, died 1980), 1st edition 1972 & 1976. I see that the first edition hardback costs about $400. My softback edition is packed away somewhere, so i couldnt refresh my memory of Joyce's story -- but snippets might be on google. Joyce reckons that he saw a scroll written by (the) Jesus, and that it must be hidden somewhere, and that the very old guy (skeleton) in the cave on Masada must have been someone special and was possibly the Jesus. I think that the theory was that these 25 in the cave probably committed "suicide" at the same time as the other 900. Certainly the whole 1962-63 Masada dig (by Yadin) is now surrounded by controversy and accusations (check google). And, i saw one reference (google) that one whole skeleton was sent to Canada and is now hidden there -- why -- if so, then perhaps this is that Jesus, ie if he wasnt buryd at Masada (the 1969 burial was another Yadin stuff-up). I dont know whether any expert beleevs Joyce, but he gave up his regular job to put 8 full years into researching and writing this one book -- speaks for itself i reckon. madMac.

wolfdancer
12-26-2006, 05:49 PM
If this is true, he was a man ahead of his time...5 or 6 years ahead. And it's now 2011AD or 2012...no wonder the bank keeps bouncing my checks.

S0Noma
12-26-2006, 05:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The Jesus Scroll by Donovan Joyce (New American Library, 1972)
Along with this discussion, I'd like to mention another book that provides even more shocking ideas than The Templar Revelation. This book is The Jesus Scroll by Donovan Joyce, an Australian. Ths book is long out of print, but I found a paperback copy in one of my used-book-buying forays, and initially thought the book had very low credibility. However, I've been slowly revising that thought, and have decided not to sell my copy. There may be some wisdom in this small book after all. Joyce begins the book with an incident that happened to him personally. His quest for Jesus was almost forced on him when he visited Israel in 1964. He sought entrance to Masada to research the location for a novel he was writing, but found mysteriously than General Yigael Yadin, who was excavating Masada at the time, denied him entrance. This is the same General Yadin who later purchased the Dead Sea Scrolls for Israel.

At the airport, Joyce met a "professor" using a phony name who asked the author to smuggle out of Israel a scroll found at Masada. The author and professor went into the men's room where the professor unrolled the scroll and told the author that it was written at Masada during the final siege by the Romans and listed the author as "Jesus of Genesereth," a man of 80 years old and who claimed to be the rightful heir to the Hasmonean throne of Israel. Joyce was offered $5000 to conceal the scroll in his bags and get it out of Israel. He refused and never saw the scroll again (nor has it resurfaced, to my knowledge). However, back home in Australia, he began looking into the scroll's implications. If this was the Jesus of the Bible, then he would have been an old man. Joyce spent years researching the possibilities and paints an incredible picture that is different from the other alternate history writers. Joyce's Jesus is also married to Mary Magdalene, but his father is not Joseph but Alpheus. After the crucifixion (in which Jesus does NOT die), he and Magdalene do not go to France, but to the Essene community at Qumran where they live out their lives until Jesus goes with the remnant of the community to Masada, where he finally dies along with the others who took their own lives rather than be captured by the Romans. To Joyce, Jesus was thoroughly Jewish, but of the Gnostic cult that flourished by the Dead Sea.

Joyce did considerable research (although he did not look in France and gives no exalted role to Mary Magdalene) and though this book bears the copyright date of 1972, he was already aware that the ideas of Christianity had been borrowed from other pagan religions. In his rather caustic manner of writing, Joyce comments "The area had long been familiar with Suffering Saviors and Redeemers and Paul's casting of Jesus in this role broke so little new ground that in fact when he joined the Pantheon Club in heaven, all that old Mithras and Soter and one or two other gods -- who died and were resurrected every year -- had to do was say Hi and make room on the bench." Like other observers, Joyce thinks the Christianity we know today was mostly invented by Paul.

The mystery of the real Jesus is interwoven with the more modern mystery of why Donovan Joyce was treated badly by the Israelis and why they would never admit the Jesus scroll existed, and why they would not tell him the real reason he was denied entrance to Masada. Joyce has a lot of bitterness about his treatment and could have written this book as a kind of revenge, but I think it is more than that. Some of his logic and research hold up, but I wonder about the scroll. How could it have been in a good enough condition to unroll in the men's room, and how would the "professor" have been able to translate it so quickly? And more important, what happened to the scroll? To base a rewriting of history on information given in a men's room that is supposedly in a scroll supposedly found at Masada seems quite a stretch. And yet, Joyce does make a case… I'd love to hear from anyone who has any more information on the scroll or the ideas in the book <hr /></blockquote>

http://www.theseekerbooks.com/images/JesusScroll1.jpg



http://www.theseekerbooks.com/images/JesusScroll2.jpg

web page (http://www.theseekerbooks.com/articles/TemplarRev.htm)

cushioncrawler
12-26-2006, 06:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> If this is true, he was a man ahead of his time...5 or 6 years ahead. And it's now 2011AD or 2012...no wonder the bank keeps bouncing my checks. <hr /></blockquote>
Woolfy -- I see on google that the 5BC or 6BC birth-dating is widely accepted, based on definite dates for the death of Herod or some such thing. I think i have about 4 books on Masada including one by Yadin -- might unpackem in about July 2007 -- in meantime i will havta google. But the possibility of Jesus being buryd in 1969 is tantalising. Who would pay the most to get their hands on the Jesus Scroll (if it exists) -- the Church, or Israel? -- either way, we will never get to see it. madMac.

cushioncrawler
12-26-2006, 07:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> If this is true, he was a man ahead of his time...5 or 6 years ahead. And it's now 2011AD or 2012...no wonder the bank keeps bouncing my checks. <hr /></blockquote>
Woolfy -- Wikipedia sez that Dionysius invented Anno Domini, and that we dont know how in hell he decided that the current year woz 525AD and that the nativity or whatever woz in 1BC/1AD, when others then had it at what would have been 2BC. Apparantly Bede popularised it in 731AD. Apparantly Copernicus was the first to reckon it at 4BC. Others before and since reckon(ed) it at 12BC and even 15BC.

But my heart goze out to all themz who reckon their dates from the time of creation -- they take year-zero to be 3952BC, 4040BC, 5509BC, etc etc.

Regarding the Userers, and why they would bounce your checks -- suggest u google "satan". madMac.

Shaft
12-27-2006, 01:45 PM
Thanks for the detailed answer SOnoma.
But... this "evidence" is pretty flimsy: A scroll that may or may not have been genuine, about a person that may or may not have been THE Jesus of the New Testament, a scroll that no one claims to have seen since and has not undergone any examination.

S0Noma
12-27-2006, 04:28 PM
FWIW: I thought the book and its premise was absurd.

cushioncrawler
12-27-2006, 05:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Shaft:</font><hr> Thanks for the detailed answer SOnoma.
But... this "evidence" is pretty flimsy: A scroll that may or may not have been genuine, about a person that may or may not have been THE Jesus of the New Testament, a scroll that no one claims to have seen since and has not undergone any examination.<hr /></blockquote>
Shaft &amp; SONama. SONama might have read "The Jesus Scroll" more recently than me -- but here are the things that come to my mind...

1... How can anyone anywhere ignore the possibility that the body (skeleton and hair??) of jesus has been found -- this would be the most amazing event in history.

2... There were only 2 things that seemed fake in the book. 2A.. How could the old scroll be partly unrolled so eezyly?? 2B.. Would crampons really make it possible for Joyce to climb Masada the hard way??

3... A few years ago, Israel bort just such an old (but not so controversial) scroll in just such circumstances.

4... If Israel or the Church did buy this scroll, they would both have destroyed it.

5... In this modern age, we shood be able to do some DNA testing on the 28 skeletons found on Masada (hair? teeth?). Why haznt it been done??

6... If indeed the remains of the "old man" have been lost, then how why where. If they were sent to Canada for "testing", then what was the result?? -- looks like the rezult was the loss of the remains??

7... Joyce died in 1980 -- how did he die???

8... Professor "Grossett" (not real name) -- is he still kicking?? -- if dead, how did he die??

9... Yadin intentionally and unintentionally stuffed-up the digs in 1962/63 and the burials in 1969 -- eg there is even some dispute about the number buryd -- all of this is starting to hit the fan. madMac.

cushioncrawler
12-29-2006, 12:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> FWIW: I thought the book and its premise was absurd. <hr /></blockquote>
Here is a snippet from the Mississippi Valley Archaelogy Center about a book which takes things further.

"...CROSS BONES By: Kathy Reichs Scribner, New York July 2005 (hc)

Kathy Reichs and her intrepid heroine, Temperance Brennan-part time faculty in anthropology at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte and part-time forensic anthropologist for the Montreal police department-are back with a vengeance. This is the eighth Tempe Brennan novel, and while I've enjoyed each of them very much, I have had misgivings concerning the last two entries - Monday Mourning and Bare Bone. While the forensic science depicted and described continued to be fascinating and to be integral to the plots, the plots themselves seemed weak and drifting-very much a departure from the early books, which were fast-paced, tightly plotted mystery thrillers that could literally leave a reader's heart pounding with excitement.

But Kathy Reichs has gotten back in the groove with Cross Bones, and does it while working through a very demanding plot. It's one that revolves around a question posited by a number of the archaeology mystery/thrillers reviewed here in the past few years: What if Christ did not die on the cross? She addresses this plot line without being derivative and within the confines of a book series that features a cast of recurring characters.

The mystery unfolds within the context of everyday life in Tempe's world. A Montreal import merchant who happens to be an Orthodox Jew is found dead of gunshot wounds under fairly suspicious circumstances. While suicide is a possibility, crime scene investigators establish that murder is a more likely cause of death. At the forensic investigation conducted by Tempe, a mysterious figure gives her a photo of skeletal remains purportedly taken in Israel in 1963, tells her that the photo's subject is the reason for the murder, and then promptly disappears. Tempe seeks out the aid of a UNC-C colleague, archaeologist Jake Drum, in identifying the remains. Drum tells her that he believes the photo is of an unreported skeleton from the 1960s excavations at Masada, conducted by famed Israeli archaeologist, Yigael Yadin. Following a convoluted trail of clues, Tempe is able trace the peripatetic skeleton, which was secreted out of Israel to the Musee de l'Homme in Paris, from which it was stolen and smuggled into Canada with the help of the dead import merchant and finally ending up in a monastery outside Montreal-with some of the individuals involved convinced that the remains are those of Jesus, who not only survived the crucifixion, but died at the age of 80 at the Roman siege of Masada! Tempe leaves the monastery with the "sacred" remains, intending to repatriate them to Israel, as international law would require. The plot indeed does thicken as Father Morissoneau, the monk who had been hiding the skeleton, is found dead shortly after his meeting with Tempe and she realizes that Avram Ferris, the import merchant had the bones and he was dead; then Father Morissoneau had the bones and he was dead; she now has them in her position and she's pretty good at connecting the dots.

Tempe and her policeman/sometime lover Andrew Ryan fly off to Jerusalem to return the bones in person and to continue the hunt for the merchant's killer, whose trail has also led to Israel. While attempting to puzzle out the mystery of the Masada skeleton, Tempe manages to excite the passions of the Ultra-Orthodox Hevrat Kadisha, who abhor the exhumation of Jewish remains and believes she may also be targeted by either Christian fundamentalists or Islamist terrorists-all of whom might have a great interest in scientific proof that might refute Christian theology. She also manages to discover a second burial, this of a crucified 1st Century Jew, in a tomb which may have been the final resting place of the so-called "Jesus family," including Mary, the mother of Jesus and his siblings! This find prompts Tempe to ask of Ryan a truly rhetorically understated question: "What's the probability that two skeletons with claims to being Jesus Christ show up at the same, exact point in time?"

To find the answers to these cosmic questions and the answer to a fairly complex crime, you'll have to read Cross Bones. And along the way you will read one of the clearest and most concise descriptions (for the layperson) of the science of mitochondrial DNA, nuclear DNA, and how they are used by DNA mappers, the medical profession and forensic investigators....."

Fasteddy7
12-29-2006, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> FWIW: I thought the book and its premise was absurd. <hr /></blockquote>

Some people say that about the bible.

S0Noma
12-29-2006, 03:39 PM
Yes, I know they do.

Here's a couple of somewhat inflammatory links in that regard:

Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

Richard Dawkins (http://richarddawkins.net/mainPage.php?bodyPage=ourMission.php)

Jesus Never Existed (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/belief.html)

cushioncrawler
12-30-2006, 04:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> Yes, I know they do. Here's a couple of somewhat inflammatory links in that regard:
Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
Richard Dawkins (http://richarddawkins.net/mainPage.php?bodyPage=ourMission.php)
Jesus Never Existed (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/belief.html) <hr /></blockquote>
SONama -- Thanks for themz links -- i especially like "jesus never existed", its great.

Reminds me -- If Luke saw a magician saw a woman in-half and then unsawed in-whole, and beleeved it actually happened (idiot), i would call him an apostle. If Luke told the story to Paul who beleeved it (super-idiot), i would call Paul a christian. If Paul wrote the story down and years later Michael read it and beleeved it (stella-idiot), i would call him a catholic. (This aint a proper description of events, its just a cheap-shot). saintMac.