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Qtec
12-26-2006, 11:04 PM
Anyone seen the US Open [ tennis] Roddick vs Fedderer?

Situation.
F serves at 120 mph. R meets the ball and sends it back over the net. R is moving towards the net and has 1/2 a milli sec to decide what to do. Then he has to position his body in the right place, have his raquet ready to make the stroke and, anticipate the bounce of a ball that is travelling so fast you can hardly see it!

How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss?
G.............trick question really. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

maxmillion
12-27-2006, 01:01 AM
I dont know what the american pool guys earn but in snooker the winnings compared to other sports are quite low.. This may reflect the difficulty..

Out of all the sports I've played I found Golf to be the hardest.. Driving nails with a 3 foot long hammer is quite a challenge..

pooltchr
12-27-2006, 05:07 AM
Of all the sports that require you to hit a ball with a stick (or raquet), pool is the only one that requires that ball to hit ANOTHER BALL to a specific location in order to score.
Steve

randyg
12-27-2006, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Of all the sports that require you to hit a ball with a stick (or raquet), pool is the only one that requires that ball to hit ANOTHER BALL to a specific location in order to score.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>


TAP TAP TAP...randyg

kevinkins
12-27-2006, 08:24 AM
How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss?

People take years and years and mess up their lives so 30 seconds to miss a pool shot is within reason. But really, the time taken in pool is mostly planning for the next shot or shots. Chess masters can take an hour to make a move - and it can be a bad move at that. Tiger Woods takes more than 30 secs to make a shot all the time. I think the play clock in the NFL is 40 secs. The shot clock in the NBA is 24 secs.

Fran Crimi
12-27-2006, 08:25 AM
Good question. I'll take a guess. Could it be that 30 seconds is plenty of time for us to second and triple guess ourselves?

Fran

Sid_Vicious
12-27-2006, 09:14 AM
Good answer Fran. The mental vs physical aspects between these two games share a lot, but the mental side certainly invades the billiard mind, and time is it's enemy when it comes to 2nd guessing execution. Tennis, you don't have but one move onto the gait toward the shot, even though there is planning for what the opponent will follow with.

Having said that, in pool, the strongest players seem IMO to be the ones with a rhythm all within themselves, and many times you will see some of these stagger on a shot toward the crunch moments of a match, take uncustomary time intervals, the eyes change in behavior, and IF these people can miss, this is the time it happens.

Pool is heavier on the mental side of game. Add the extra dimensions of the options during a pool game, the changing of the table, the opponents changing of the lay for your next shot...well, pool players deserve credit for their success amongst all sports...sid

wolfdancer
12-27-2006, 09:43 AM
You've probably never played the deadly serious and physically demanding game of Extreme Croquet...
"EXtreme croquet is the ultimate contest.

You are surrounded by ruthless competitors.

Your fate depends entirely on your own skill, and your killer instinct.

In short - eXtreme croquet is like life itself... "
http://web.telia.com/~u18309783/images/smoke.gif

The roquet,is one of the most difficult feats, in all of sports....and from the rules:
2) After roqueting a ball, the player is allowed to select between two kinds of croquet shot - "fixed croquet" or "free croquet" - se ch. 6 below.
To play the game at this level, one must be in top physical condition

http://web.telia.com/~u18309783/images/76_hm.jpg

Here are some of the athletes at the training table:
http://web.telia.com/~u18309783/images/00_01_vm.jpg

Imagine the skill required to execute this shot:
http://web.telia.com/~u18309783/images/79_vm.jpg

Pool? Golf?...they pale in comparison to this difficult, demanding sport!!

dr_dave
12-27-2006, 09:54 AM
You forgot to mention the incredible physical conditioning required to make it through a competitive tennis match. Also, there are the small issues of strength, quickness, and flexibility required to be athletic on the court.

Concerning why it is easy to miss a pool shot as compared to a tennis shot:

1) The cue tip and center-ball target are both extremely small. A tennis racquet's sweet spot is huge in comparison.

2) The margin for error with a typical pool shot is tiny (usually in the 1-2 degree range). Pinpoint placement is not as critical in tennis, especially with shots close to the net.

3) Aim visualization and precise/repeatable stroke execution are tough.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Anyone seen the US Open [ tennis] Roddick vs Fedderer?

Situation.
F serves at 120 mph. R meets the ball and sends it back over the net. R is moving towards the net and has 1/2 a milli sec to decide what to do. Then he has to position his body in the right place, have his raquet ready to make the stroke and, anticipate the bounce of a ball that is travelling so fast you can hardly see it!

How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss?
G.............trick question really. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Brian in VA
12-27-2006, 12:19 PM
Ted Williams used to say that hitting a baseball was the most difficult athletic task to accomplish. He was telling Sam Snead, the great golfer of the same era, about it and noted that golfers had to have it perfectly quiet, no one could move or make a sound, while a baseball player had 40,000 fans screaming and waving things and then the pitcher throws the ball upwards of 90 miles an hour. At that point the batter has less than half a second to decide if it's a hittable pitch and make a swing of a cylinder hit a round object with the intent of hitting it "square."

Sam nodded his head and drawled, "Yeah but you don't have to go up in the stands and play your foul balls."

To me, any endeavor that requires movement to be initiated by the player is fraught with difficulties. And in pool, it's the small muscles or smaller movements that will show any mistake or twitch.

It's the never ending quest for perfection that makes this game worth the playing.

Brian in VA

Tom_In_Cincy
12-27-2006, 12:59 PM
Maybe the Tennis players would take more time if they were trying to put the tennis ball into a pocket?

I am sure I would take less time at the pool table if my opponent were hitting the cue ball back at me.. and I am sure that my cue stick would be bigger than 13mm......

A great base ball player once asked a great golf player "What's so difficult about hitting a golf ball tee'd up and every one quiet?... in Baseball, we have 45,000 screeming fans and a 90mph fast ball coming at us.." the golfer replied... "golfers have to play their foul balls"

Compare all you want... but all it will do is cause less time away from the practice table.

Jal
12-27-2006, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>..Having said that, in pool, the strongest players seem IMO to be the ones with a rhythm all within themselves, and many times you will see some of these stagger on a shot toward the crunch moments of a match, take uncustomary time intervals, the eyes change in behavior, and IF these people can miss, this is the time it happens.<hr /></blockquote>I don't have too many videos of pro matches, but a couple do involve 100+ runs (Sigel, Crane), and I've yet to see anything that looks like "rhythm". Both vary the interval between shots and the number and type of warmup strokes considerably from shot to shot. On the tougher ones they take more time and more warmups, and on the easier ones less time and fewer warmups. On a couple of occasions, they both took unusual lengths of time, made the shots and continued their runs.

I tried playing at a regular mechanical-like pace for a period of 4-6 months, and it was a disaster.

Jim

wolfdancer
12-27-2006, 02:01 PM
you think hitting 'em with a stick is hard...try this:

"Mindball, the new game where you move a ball with your mind."
web page (http://www.slate.com/id/2156217/?nav=tap3)

randyg
12-27-2006, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kevinkins:</font><hr> How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss?

People take years and years and mess up their lives so 30 seconds to miss a pool shot is within reason. But really, the time taken in pool is mostly planning for the next shot or shots. Chess masters can take an hour to make a move - and it can be a bad move at that. Tiger Woods takes more than 30 secs to make a shot all the time. I think the play clock in the NFL is 40 secs. The shot clock in the NBA is 24 secs. <hr /></blockquote>

Tiger Woods gets EVERY shot off in less than 13 seconds. Anyone who studies the Mental side knows that in golf and pool we have less than 15 seconds to execute our decision.....SPF=randyg

cushioncrawler
12-27-2006, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Anyone seen the US Open [ tennis] Roddick vs Fedderer? Situation. F serves at 120 mph. R meets the ball and sends it back over the net. R is moving towards the net and has 1/2 a milli sec to decide what to do. Then he has to position his body in the right place, have his raquet ready to make the stroke and, anticipate the bounce of a ball that is travelling so fast you can hardly see it! How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss? G ...trick question really... <hr /></blockquote>
Q -- I see that everyone posting here has missed your point -- and, even u have missed your own point. Its like this....

In essence, no game is any harder than any other game -- duzzenmadder whether its Tiddly-Winks or Farn-Arckling or whatever.

A game involves beating an opponent or opponents. Hence, any difficulty to be overcome by u, allso haztabe overcome by your opponent(s). Some games might mainly involve strength, or speed, or endurance, or skill, or whatever -- duzzenmadder.

Most games were born (invented) to suite the human dimension -- this shood go without saying. And, some have evolved in a Darwinian way to suite human progress and advances in equipment etc , eg the length of a golf course.

So, i am dissapointed in the responses thus-far. But i might jump in here myself nonetheless. I reckon that the most difficult games to play are the ones where u looz your life if u looz -- there have been lots of theze over the years.....

A... Duelling, with pistols or swords -- eg the gladiators.
B... A sort of soccer kum volleyball game in south america, where the whole loozing team lost their heads (actually, things havnt changed all that much).
C... Strip Poker perhaps allso. madMac.

Stretch
12-27-2006, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Anyone seen the US Open [ tennis] Roddick vs Fedderer? Situation. F serves at 120 mph. R meets the ball and sends it back over the net. R is moving towards the net and has 1/2 a milli sec to decide what to do. Then he has to position his body in the right place, have his raquet ready to make the stroke and, anticipate the bounce of a ball that is travelling so fast you can hardly see it! How can you have 30 secs for a shot in pool and still miss? G ...trick question really... <hr /></blockquote>
Q -- I see that everyone posting here has missed your point -- and, even u have missed your own point. Its like this....

In essence, no game is any harder than any other game -- duzzenmadder whether its Tiddly-Winks or Farn-Arckling or whatever.

A game involves beating an opponent or opponents. Hence, any difficulty to be overcome by u, allso haztabe overcome by your opponent(s). Some games might mainly involve strength, or speed, or endurance, or skill, or whatever -- duzzenmadder.

Most games were born (invented) to suite the human dimension -- this shood go without saying. And, some have evolved in a Darwinian way to suite human progress and advances in equipment etc , eg the length of a golf course.

So, i am dissapointed in the responses thus-far. But i might jump in here myself nonetheless. I reckon that the most difficult games to play are the ones where u looz your life if u looz -- there have been lots of theze over the years.....

A... Duelling, with pistols or swords -- eg the gladiators.
B... A sort of soccer kum volleyball game in south america, where the whole loozing team lost their heads (actually, things havnt changed all that much).
C... Strip Poker perhaps allso. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

lol funny. Concerning C. I've lost my shirt a few times. But like all good Northerners. The secret is, we layer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif St.

mantis
12-27-2006, 07:44 PM
Every game has its own level of difficulty, as does pool. If not so, everyone could run a table with just a little practice, but very few people can consistently. I would have to argue though that their is no more difficult task in professional sports than hitting a baseball with a bat. Look at the success rate. Those make millions of dollars are successful only 30% of the time. If a pool player only made 30% of his balls, or open table runs for that matter, he would not have much chance of being successful as a pro. The over all difficulty does not really matter though. It is really who can overcome each games difficulty more consistently.

Qtec
12-27-2006, 08:22 PM
So what?
You are playing on a perfectly flat surface, both balls are stationary and really all you are doing is just sending the QB to hit a target.

Q.........not saying pool is easy! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
12-27-2006, 08:27 PM
I don't really think there is a definite answer Fran. Its impossible to compare sports and say which is more difficult because they all require different skills, but as usual Fran but YOU bring up a good point.
IMO, In any sport, the biggest killer is indecision and in pool you do have a lot of time to find problems that are not there.

Q

Qtec
12-27-2006, 09:17 PM
13 seconds in pool seems like a long time to me. In pool, 5 secs would seem more normal to me..................unless you haven't made a decision.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who studies the Mental side knows that in golf and pool we have less than 15 seconds to execute our decision.....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Player breaks and comes up dry. Player 2 walks to the table and , like most experienced players in that situation surveys the table and immediately KNOWS what shot he is going to play. He has made a decision..........and the clock is ticking. He knows what he is going to do but its an important game- and he checks ,just to make sure, that all the balls go. His heart is beating fast he needs to focus and he knows he must run out from this position.
Lets hope there is no time clock!


I think what you meant to say was when you lay on/address the ball/ get down on the shot, don't take too long.

If you are going to be condescending, at least try and be specific . /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


I started this thread in good faith because it was getting boring on the CCB. I thought of a good question and I posted it.
I played tennis for 10 years and after 25 years I am still shooting balls into pockets - first snooker and now pool and I,ve been coaching for at least 15 years, so I do know the difference btween the 2 games.
I still play competative pool [ I,m 47 ]and I still put myself up to be knocked down by punks, so I still know
the game as a emotional experience. I still don,t want to lose! LOL
By all means state your opinion but don,t condem those who might disagree with you as idiots or as uneducated.
SPLIF
Q

randyg
12-28-2006, 06:55 AM
Sorry. Didn't mean to sound like that at all. Just was stating facts from one of the leading Sports Psychologist.

5 seconds is very short. It take most people about 8-10 seconds to put their bridge down, adjust their body, verify their target, warm up strokes and still move their cue back, pause, and forward. This 8-10 seconds is in the recommended time frame. After about 15 seconds the Analytical side of the Brain starts working again=trouble. This is true for Golf and Pool.....SPF=randyg

Qtec
12-28-2006, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Sorry. Didn't mean to sound like that at all. Just was stating facts from one of the leading Sports Psychologist.<font color="blue">OK RG, no problem. Thank for the explanation.</font color>


5 seconds is very short. It take most people about 8-10 seconds to put their bridge down, adjust their body, verify their target, warm up strokes and still move their cue back, pause, and forward. This 8-10 seconds is in the recommended time frame. After about 15 seconds the Analytical side of the Brain starts working again=trouble. This is true for Golf and Pool.....SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>

The 5 secs I,m talking about begins when you make your first warm up stroke. This is when the clock starts.
An experienced player might lay on, aim and be ready to play a simple shot in 5 secs, a beginner would take longer, it doesn't matter. That process takes as long as it takes, but when you are ready, its time to shoot. Like you say, if you don't shoot it implies that the player can't have made a decision. The brian now kicks in because the concentration has been broken and the player is now thinking about the shot instead of playing it. I see it in the club all the time.

Golf and pool have a lot in common but pool is a much more cruel game IMO. In golf at least you always get to play your shot. In snooker and pool, every shot could be your last- even the first shot of the game![ when S hendry was at his best he made a record number of continuous points. His opponent didn't make a ball in 3 hours of play! LOL That's cruel!]
There is a different kind of pressure in pool than tennis. Pressure wise, I would liken it more to chess.

To me, being a top player in any sport is 80% mentality and 20% talent. There is no substitute for confidence.

Q