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Deeman3
01-15-2007, 09:38 AM
Colorado Blizzard - 2006



Weather Bulletin - Colorado

Priceless. Think about this for a moment.

Denver News

This text is from a county emergency manager out in the western part of
Jefferson County after a snowstorm.

WEATHER BULLETIN
Up here, in the Northern Plains, we just recovered from a Historic event; may I even say a "Weather Event" of "Biblical Proportions" --- with a
historic blizzard of up to 44" inches of snow and winds to 90 MPH that
broke trees in half, knocked down utility poles, stranded hundreds of
motorists in lethal snow banks, closed ALL roads, isolated scores of communities and cut power to 10's of thousands.

FYI:
George Bush did not come.
FEMA did nothing.No one howled for the government.
No one blamed the government.
No one even uttered an expletive on TV.
Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton did not visit.
Our Mayor did not blame Bush or anyone else.
Our Governo r did not blame Bush or anyone else, either.
CNN, ABC, CBS, FOX or NBC did not visit - or report on this category 5
snowstorm. Nobody demanded $2,000 debit cards.
No one asked for a FEMA Trailer House.
No one looted.
Nobody - I mean Nobody demanded the government do something.
Nobody expected the government to do anything, either.
No Larry King, No Bill O'Rielly, No Oprah, No Chris Mathews and No Geraldo Rivera.
No Shaun Penn, No Barbara Striesand, No Hollywood types to be found.
Nope, we just melted the snow for water.
Sent out caravans of SUV's to pluck people out of snow engulfed cars.
The truck drivers pulled people out of snow banks and didn't ask for a penny.
Local restaurants made food and the police and fire departments
delivered it to the snowbound families.
Families took in the stranded people - total strangers.
We fired up wood stoves, broke out coal oil lanterns or Coleman lanterns.
We put on extra layers of clothes because up here it is "Work or Die".
We did not wait for some affirmative action government to get us out of
a mess created by being immobilized by a welfare program that trades votes
for 'sittin at home' checks.
Even though a Category "5" blizzard of this scale has never fallen this
early, we know it can happen and how to deal with it ourselves.
In my many travels, I have noticed that once one gets north of about
40 degrees North Latitude, 90% of the world's social problems evaporate.
It does seem that way, at least to me.

hondo
01-15-2007, 11:00 AM
I can't remember. How many died in Colorado.?

Gayle in MD
01-15-2007, 01:07 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pooltchr
01-15-2007, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> I can't remember. How many died in Colorado.? <hr /></blockquote>

Is that the criteria we use to evaluate an emergency? Maybe the people in Colorado are smart enough to take the necessary action BEFORE a natural disaster, rather than wait until it happens and then look for someone to rescue them from their own stupidity!

I think the point of the post is very clear and accurate. Some people accept responsibility, while others would rather point fingers and blame others. This is true not only for natural disasters, but in life in general. There are victims, and there are people who refuse to be victims. Those who fall into the second catagory as a rule are more successful.

Steve

S0Noma
01-15-2007, 06:38 PM
Well done! It was very well written too.

Of course I can't help but wonder how often the people in that part of the country see massive amounts of snow falling from the sky? Every year? Several times a year? I mean, heavy snow's pretty common in that area isn't it? So, coping or knowing how to cope when it snows extra hard isn't a survival mechanism that spontaneously generates is it? I'm guessing that these folks get lots of practice. This is by no means a criticism of their fine efforts or the heroic nature of those efforts. But... when you live where it snows like hell every year you would be expected to learn how to deal with it sooner or later.

By contrast, how often does a monster hurricane hit the city of New Orleans? Every year? Several times a year? How often do the levees break and flood the city? Once a year? Twice?
Do the residents have any experience with being trapped by unexpected flood waters? Practice?

I dunno, however it does seem like we might be talking a little more about apples and oranges here than apples and apples. But that's just me.

Gayle in MD
01-16-2007, 08:55 AM
Very true, and very well stated, I was thinking the same things. There is really no comparison to these two events.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
01-16-2007, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>

Of course I can't help but wonder how often the people in that part of the country see massive amounts of snow falling from the sky? <hr /></blockquote>

It's no secret that they see a lot of snow. It's also no secret that they know how to prepare for it. Same is true for most people who live on the coast where hurricanes are known to happen. Most people know how to prepare for them. Some idiots choose to ignore the warnings, then wonder what went wrong.
I'm sure in California that you understand the potential for possible earthquakes or wild fires. They happen. People take precautions by building structures that can withstand the hazards, planning evacuation routes, you know...silly little things you do to try to protect life and property.
We all make choices in life, and we all live with the consequences of those choices. Yes, there are some things that are beyond our control, but in most cases, we make personal decisions as to how we deal with them. Stupid decisions usually result in unpleasant results. Smart decisions and intelligent planning will more likely reduce any negative impact.
Steve

hondo
01-17-2007, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr>

Of course I can't help but wonder how often the people in that part of the country see massive amounts of snow falling from the sky? <hr /></blockquote>

It's no secret that they see a lot of snow. It's also no secret that they know how to prepare for it. Same is true for most people who live on the coast where hurricanes are known to happen. Most people know how to prepare for them. Some idiots choose to ignore the warnings, then wonder what went wrong.
I'm sure in California that you understand the potential for possible earthquakes or wild fires. They happen. People take precautions by building structures that can withstand the hazards, planning evacuation routes, you know...silly little things you do to try to protect life and property.
We all make choices in life, and we all live with the consequences of those choices. Yes, there are some things that are beyond our control, but in most cases, we make personal decisions as to how we deal with them. Stupid decisions usually result in unpleasant results. Smart decisions and intelligent planning will more likely reduce any negative impact.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

So, how much compassion did you have for those silly Jewish
people who didn't heed the signs and get out of Germany
when they had the chance?

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 07:52 AM
Bravo!!! Perfect! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

S0Noma
01-17-2007, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> [

It's no secret that they see a lot of snow. It's also no secret that they know how to prepare for it.

<font color="blue">So then, it should not be extraordinary for them to be without electricity or have their highways blocked by snow for days on end. Nor, should it be fair to compare it to a once in a lifetime disaster like the breeching of levees that flooded New Orleans. </font color>


Same is true for most people who live on the coast where hurricanes are known to happen. Most people know how to prepare for them. Some idiots choose to ignore the warnings, then wonder what went wrong.

<font color="blue">First off, compared to heavy snow storms hitting the high elevations of the Rocky Mountains several times a year, hurricanes are far more infrequent guests of New Orleans. In addition, Katrina actually missed New Orleans proper. It was the breaking of the levees, albeit caused by Katrina, that precipitated the disastrous flooding of the city. Even then, it was only parts of the city that were affected. Other parts of the city stayed high and dry.

So, how would you know when the warnings came to evacuate that you should indeed evacuate? Wouldn't that have been a judgment call? After all, in retrospect, the hurricane largely missed the city. Given what followed, if you owned property there that did not get hit by the flood would you have been better off to abandon it and flee when the order to evacuate first came in, or hope the hurricane would miss the city and stay behind to protect your property from potential vandals and thieves?

Furthermore, if you lived in a high crime neighborhood and saw that many people that you did not trust were staying behind - would you walk off and leave your few precious possessions unguarded if you didn't absolutely have to?</font color>

I'm sure in California that you understand the potential for possible earthquakes or wild fires. They happen. People take precautions by building structures that can withstand the hazards, planning evacuation routes, you know...silly little things you do to try to protect life and property.

<font color="blue">Not really. There are State mandated construction standards and State mandated efforts to retrofit buildings and bridges, but by and large most Californians are completely unprepared for a major earthquake. One of the reasons is (just like hurricanes and New Orleans only more so) we have so few major earthquakes. The incentive to prepare for something that may or may not happen during our lifetime is not compelling enough to motivate the citizens of this State to take serious steps to prepare for such an emergency. Also keep in mind that unlike snow storms, hurricanes, tornadoes and other weather related phenomena that can be tracked, earthquakes always arrive without warning. They are ALWAYS a big surprise to everyone who lives here.

In addition, given the potential magnitude of a truly severe earthquake - one in which office buildings will topple, bridges collapse, freeway overpasses collapse, houses collapse etc. Short of buying a fleet of dirt bikes for you and your entire family, how exactly do you plan an evacuation route?

When all the highways are blocked and emergency services are completely overwhelmed you might, in fact, find yourself looking for that emergency food supply - that you don't have - or the fresh water you failed to set aside for drinking - or the batteries to keep your flashlights lit - that you don't have - or the extra gas that you don't have to run the generator you never bought or the emergency life saving skills that you never learned that you need to apply to save a family member's life.

If that time comes, and you're not fortunate enough to live in an area like the high Rockies where communities have learned by CONSTANT practice how to cope with familiar emergencies - you might just find yourself waiting for Big Brother to mobilize his massive power and send in the army, or the National Guard, or whatthefuckever to save your sorry ass. What you wouldn't expect to have happen is to be ignored for days on end until the situation as grim as it might be went from really, really bad to oh, so much, worse.

</font color>
We all make choices in life, and we all live with the consequences of those choices. Yes, there are some things that are beyond our control, but in most cases, we make personal decisions as to how we deal with them. Stupid decisions usually result in unpleasant results. Smart decisions and intelligent planning will more likely reduce any negative impact.

<font color="blue">Sounds good on paper. </font color>
Steve <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

hondo
01-17-2007, 09:03 AM
Believe me, I usually hate it when when somebody
plays the racism card.
But I'll be honest. Much of the criticism of the
Katrina victims by the right wingers has APPEARED
to me to be saying," Damn dumb blackies didn't have
sense enough to run when they should have and now they're
whining to the gubmint to save their sorry asses."
I hope I'm wrong. Surely the right is smart enough to
realize how reluctant and scared people are to leave
their home and how many of these folks had no resources
or place to go.

S0Noma
01-17-2007, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> So, how much compassion did you have for those silly Jewish
people who didn't heed the signs and get out of Germany
when they had the chance?
<hr /></blockquote>

I used to wonder the same thing. Until I met a man whose family had extricated him from Germany to England after he got out of Dachau - early in the War. His family stayed behind only to perish in the Holocaust that followed.

What happened with the Jews was more like the damage caused by a glacier than a sudden and obvious emergency. Many saw the early warning signs and fled. The Germans took full advantage of this by charging them exorbitant amounts of money to leave the country. As time went by laws were passed that made exiting an impossibility. By the time those that remained realized it was past time to get the hell out - most of them were doomed.

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 09:30 AM
I have gotten the same feeling, Hondo. I find it sad that there are still so many people in this country who don't understand how hard it is for poor people to break out of horrible poverty, and pull themselves up. Those people in New Orleans, were devastated by a horrible natural disaster, one of the worst, if not THE worst in our history. These critics on here don't even bother to account for the fact that Katrina had been preceeded by a number of Hurricanes along the coasts which gave examples of people stranded on the road for long periods of time, and unable to get gas, due to Hurricane threats, that later proved to have hit somewhere else. When that happens, a lot of people decide to try to ride them out.

I once evacuated Oak Island North Carolina, Long Beach, eventho no one was leaving. Jim didn't want to leave, either, until we drove to the Coast Guard Station and learned that eventhough they had not announced any evacuation of the Island, they were closing the station, and evacuating themselves. When we asked them why, since they were leaving, they weren't telling people on the Island to leave, they said, "There's only one bridge and one road, they'd never all get out anyway!!!

While it's always best to be safe, rather than sorry, one never knows for sure what a Hurricane will do. They often completely change direction, and leaving can sometimes put you at even greater risk. It's a tough call. One thing Americans have learned though, as long as George Bush is around, we can't country on any emergency rescues from the Commander, but the campaign contributors can rely on plenty of no bid contracts, and opportunities to steal us blind, as they fail to accomplish their tasks.

Gayle in Md.

hondo
01-17-2007, 10:08 AM
Right. Exactly the point I was making. There are valid reasons
people don't leave. It has nothing to do with stupidity.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> So, how much compassion did you have for those silly Jewish
people who didn't heed the signs and get out of Germany
when they had the chance?
<hr /></blockquote>

I used to wonder the same thing. Until I met a man whose family had extricated him from Germany to England after he got out of Dachau - early in the War. His family stayed behind only to perish in the Holocaust that followed.

What happened with the Jews was more like the damage caused by a glacier than a sudden and obvious emergency. Many saw the early warning signs and fled. The Germans took full advantage of this by charging them exorbitant amounts of money to leave the country. As time went by laws were passed that made exiting an impossibility. By the time those that remained realized it was past time to get the hell out - most of them were doomed. <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
01-17-2007, 10:19 AM
One poster had a rather funny thread on here about
the difference between libs &amp; cons.
Something I see. What libs call compassion, cons call
foolhardiness.
What cons call being fiscally responsible, libs see greed.
Perspective can be very subjective.
Churchill said if you're not a liberal at 21, you have
no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have
no brain. Why can't a person have both?

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 10:25 AM
People do have both. A government or party, void of compassion for the least fortunate among us, is not far from the worst kind of country, and governing, that one can imagine, IMO. I think we've gotten six years of previews and they aren't very pretty.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 10:50 AM
It is a difference of perspective but I think it has little to do with the race or locale of the "victims". I said and felt the same with the idiots that clung to the side of mount St. Helens during the eruption in the 1980's. People tend to think, "It will never happen to me." and that may hold them. Abject poverty is another reason people might not leave but many passed up multiple attempts to evacuate them, before it became an avalanch of people.

Yes, conservatives do feel there is a difference in what mind set you have as one group may "wait" for that omnipotent government to bale them out while another says, "I'll have to find a way out." I really don't think your playing the race card is fair. You never mention that the local and state governments turned down help before the storm and lost many opportunities to get people out. They happened to be local democrat incompetents but you would have raised hell if they had been republican, admit it.

DeeMan
Help, I'm a Democrat and I have fallen and Uncle Sam will have to help me up.....

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 11:19 AM
Deeman

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>
but many passed up multiple attempts to evacuate them, before it became an avalanch of people. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>


Since people make mistakes in judgement we should take glee, when life teaches them a lesson? Do you really think there's any excuse that once the disaster became visually obvious, the Federal Government still failed to respond for days? I think I recall days going by when the Mayor was literally screaming for help.

I also recall a taped conversation eventually became public, which proved the Bush HAD in fact been told the levees could very easily break, and the Governor saying we're going to need all the help you can send us, and Bush having previously said that he didn't even know for several days that the levees had been broken, and no one had warned him they likely would.

"No one expected the levees to break." George Bush

Heaven forbid any of you righties on here ever get caught up in a life threatening situation because you made a mistake in calculating the often fickle nature of mother nature. What happened to those people could happen to anyone, even someone with ample brains and money.

Gayle in Md.

hondo
01-17-2007, 11:28 AM
Growing up , my family was dirt poor. I try to imagine
what they would do under the same circumstances. By growing
up poor it's a little easier to put myself in the place
of people who had no money, no car, couldn't drive, and
had no place to go.
Ever try to put yourself in their place? Are you even able
to do it? What about you, eg? Steve? Is empathy possible
from a group of folks who are obsessed with being
over taxed?

hondo
01-17-2007, 11:33 AM
Gayle, the righties are in a life threatening situation
every year. It's called over-taxation. Oh, the horror!
The horror! (Actually, I feel the same way.)

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 11:52 AM
Yeah, that's nothing compared to their hero creating thousands and thousands more militant radical nuts who are planning to blow us all up, or leaving bin Laden, to continue his making his plans because Iraq came first, thanks to Bush/Cheney, and their creation of false intelligence, which they now blame for going into Iraq and finding no WMD's. Much of the ammo that has been used to kill and maine our people, was readily available to the radical Sunnis in Iraq immediately after the occupation, because they refused to listen to the warnings of the Generals who had years of experience in the Middle East. Now, Bush blames bad intelligence, eventhough Cheney worked for months, building policy friendly intelligence people into the CIA. IOW, the bad Intelligence, was intelligence THEY created, Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld.

As for compassion, they have to denigrate the emotion entirely, it's far too Democratic a principle.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> "I'm here" he said as he held the lantern, trudging through hip deep water. "I'm here, and I'm going to help you." [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

Lyndon Johnson

That's a far cry from a president who didn't bother to turn on the TV, after the Hurrican Zar told him he couldn't gaurentee the levees wouldn't break, in a city that is shaped like a bowl, no less.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 12:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
Since people make mistakes in judgement we should take glee, when life teaches them a lesson? <font color="blue"> Who is expressing glee at their misfortune? I think it's pretty sad to say something like this when you don't know what i feel about the people of New Orleans. </font color> Do you really think there's any excuse that once the disaster became visually obvious, the Federal Government still failed to respond for days? I think I recall days going by when the Mayor was literally screaming for help. <font color="blue"> Yes, he was. The very same mayor who would not make arrangements to use the many vehicles the city had at their disposal in the many days before. If you remember, the emergency crews stopped short of going into N.O. before the storm, then tried very hard to get in to the people with many, many still refusing to get on rescue boats, helocopters, etc.</font color>

I also recall a taped conversation eventually became public, which proved the Bush HAD in fact been told the levees could very easily break, and the Governor saying we're going to need all the help you can send us, and Bush having previously said that he didn't even know for several days that the levees had been broken, and no one had warned him they likely would.

"No one expected the levees to break." George Bush

Heaven forbid any of you righties on here ever get caught up in a life threatening situation because you made a mistake in calculating the often fickle nature of mother nature. What happened to those people could happen to anyone, even someone with ample brains and money.
<font color="blue">It did! Many of the people there were not poor. </font color>

DeeMan
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

S0Noma
01-17-2007, 12:16 PM
Pretty much all true, Gayle.

But I don't think it's all black and white (pun intended). We've clearly created something of a welfare state over time in this country because we have yet to figure out how to 'help ' people get out of poverty other than to throw money at them and expect them to do it on their own. How ironic is it to give someone a helping hand only to snatch it away as soon as they try to get a leg up on their life? On welfare and trying to make ends meet? Try getting a minimum wage job (that couldn't possibly make ends meet) and see how quick they take away your welfare check. Stupid management of a absurd system that encourages people not to try lies partly at the heart of the problem. It's helped to foster the creation of a group of people who not only don't know how to help themselves but don't even know where to start.

In the aftermath of Katrina I saw what I felt was an embarrassed Federal government anxiously pouring hundreds of millions of dollars down a rat hole in an effort to look like they were helping. I saw tons of people ripping off the system for every cent they could get and tons more people who stood around with their thumb up their butt doing jackshit on their own behalf while they waited for the govy to take care of their sorryasses.

So... somewhere between the extreme liberal view and the extreme conservative view there IS an objective view. Unless or until we can get off our high horses and stop blaming each other for what's wrong I don't expect to see much improvement in the way things are.

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 12:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Growing up , my family was dirt poor. I try to imagine
what they would do under the same circumstances. By growing
up poor it's a little easier to put myself in the place
of people who had no money, no car, couldn't drive, and
had no place to go.
Ever try to put yourself in their place? Are you even able
to do it? What about you, eg? Steve? Is empathy possible
from a group of folks who are obsessed with being
over taxed? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> There is a difference in empathy, which most of us have, and the different philosophical viewpoint of thinking the federal government is responsible for rescue of us all, during a disaster, during a major problem, during hard times. I never thought we should not help the Karina victims and remember, the right gives much more to these causes than the left ever will. Complete responsibility of the government and blame with little or no presonal responsibility is just what makes our belief systems different. Don't act like you care more! You just, like all left wingers, talk more about helping. You know that's true..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

DeeMan
Clinton would have felt their pain....

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 01:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

I think your original post gives me a clue.

The very same mayor who would not make arrangements to use the many vehicles the city had at their disposal in the many days before. If you remember, the emergency crews stopped short of going into N.O. before the storm, then tried very hard to get in to the people with many, many still refusing to get on rescue boats, helocopters, etc.


As I recall, the available time after Katrina was expected to impact N.O., was not days in advance, although the possibility existed, the news stations were all calling for landfall in Mississippi, and also, recall the reports that those who were supposed to drive the buses, fled, instead, to save themselves. I think the issue is that while I don't think the Mayor, or the Governor were entirely without blame, I also know that it is the Federal Government's obligation to provide water and food, and also rescue, after an National Emergency cripples any part of our country.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Forgive me, Deeman, if I misunderstood your post. It didn't sound as though you had any compassion or appreciation for the difference between those unfortunate people in New Orleans, or for those who were caught up trying to survive Katrina.

Gayle in Md.

hondo
01-17-2007, 01:18 PM
If the right does indeed give more , and I'm not
convinced of that, it's only because there's a lot
more wealthy people on the right.
Furthermore, you don't know anything about me so
what's all this, " you know it's true" ?

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 01:23 PM
Gayle,

No problem. I arrived in Alabama the same weekend the storm hit and drove through the area. After we arrived, Tori and I made three trips to the Gulf Coast hauling supplies my new company had collected as well as giving up our temporary arrangements at a local Bed &amp; Breakfast so that people fleeing the storm could stay there. I hired about anyone from that area for the next two months regardless of their work record, color, situation and many are still with us. I didn't do anything many others here did not do but I certainly did not sit by and blame those poor folks.

Despite that, and maybe partly because of that, I still feel it is not a basic function of government to come to our rescue in every case. N.O./Katrina...Yes! Could it have been handled better, probably not by an American Government Organization under any administration. You can't expect people who are barely functional and have to do $300 in paperwork to buy a bandaid, to respond very well to anything, before or after Bush. These fiascos have happend before but the expectations are different now. Victims and now "heros" and anyone who won't help them selves, can't help themselves. This is not a blanket statement but you should have been around for the demands made by perfectly healthy, strong people who, after the disaster, wanted all and more, wasted what was given and then demanded more, making us all "guilty" of not giving enough, soon enough. Victims are now entitles, not only deserving.

DeeMan

DeeMan

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 01:24 PM
I apologise, maybe you do not know it is true.

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 01:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> But I don't think it's all black and white (pun intended). We've clearly created something of a welfare state over time in this country because we have yet to figure out how to 'help ' people get out of poverty other than to throw money at them and expect them to do it on their own. How ironic is it to give someone a helping hand only to snatch it away as soon as they try to get a leg up on their life? On welfare and trying to make ends meet? Try getting a minimum wage job (that couldn't possibly make ends meet) and see how quick they take away your welfare check. Stupid management of a absurd system that encourages people not to try lies partly at the heart of the problem. It's helped to foster the creation of a group of people who not only don't know how to help themselves but don't even know where to start. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

I couldn't agree more. Our system was always far from perfect. I just happen to believe that all children should have food, that the Head Start Program, and some others, were worth their weight in gold, and that when the cause is just, the effort to perfect the system, is worthwhile. Instead, what we have seen in recent years amounts to a class war, and the poor and middle class have taken the brunt of the adjustments, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>


Well, I agree, that is what the media seemed to focuss on, but I certainly don't think those pictures gave the full story. I suppose, it's a matter of perspective. What I saw was complete kaos, no oversight by the Federal Government, an example of why merging FEMA into Homeland Security crippled recovery, and only expanded a massive bureauocracy, which did not function efficiently, or effectivly.

Soon after, I saw the President fire the one person from the Federal level who had been trying to warn the Administration of the loss of effectivness and function of FEMA, had made it to the disaster area, and worked day and night trying to help. I also saw a picture of the resulting bureaucratic, weakened state of FEMA due to the unfortunate decision to merge two separate Agencies. I then saw the President fire the man who did show up, and keep the one didn't. the same one who refused to address the underfunding of FEMA, and tried to block efforts to change that problem.

I then saw the awarding of no bid contracts to Bush Contributors, in an area where those who had lived, needed jobs to return to, many of which ended up being given to illegal aliens.

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> So... somewhere between the extreme liberal view and the extreme conservative view there IS an objective view. Unless or until we can get off our high horses and stop blaming each other for what's wrong I don't expect to see much improvement in the way things are. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

I think accountability is the answer. I also think that some people have benefitted greatly from welfare programs, that they serve a very necessary purpose, and need stringent oversight. I don't think people in this country should be hungry, or without water, electricity and shelter, nor should the United States create that circumstance on the other side of the world, while at the same time, tax breaks, and subsidies are doled out to the very companies who gouge the public, profit from war, and pay high powered accountants to see that they don't have to pay their fair share of taxes. What I saw during Katrina, looked very much to me like a Government that didn't care about the most needy among us, and failed to respond in a dire circumstance, a major Natural Disaster, which even some experts didn't have a handle on, but is still spending 8 billion dollars a month on imaginary threats and unrealistic possibilities.

I suppose, it is all in how one sees it. Incompetence and waste seem to always be bedfellows.

Gayle i

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 02:20 PM
No problem Deeman, and I believe you, and think your efforts were commendable. I know how you feel, and I have been at the mercy of the Federal Government when I felt that I was being punished for people who were forever crying poor mouth. I have stood in line at the grocery store and seen people buying Negligees, and expensive wine, with food stamps! I felt exactly that way, when after working so hard as a young couple, we purchased our first home near a good school, and the government stepped in and told us that our little girl would be bussed to the ghetto! Believe me, I was furious, and stood on the steps of the Capital, with a placard, where other Mothers, and I, sang the protest song, that I wrote!

The result was that I spent over forty thousand dollars for tuition for private schools, both elementary, and high school, before my daughter ever started college, and that was back in the sixties and seventies. Money well spent, I might add, but nevertheless, I felt it was completely unfair that I had to pay for what a bunch of slave owners had done one or two hundred years ago!

Your overall statements about people relying on welfare, and giving tax payers money, to people who don't deserve it, does deserve some merit, I just don't think I, personally, can apply it to the circumstance of unprecedented disasters like Hurrican Katrina, and especially at a time when our government is wasting eight billion dollars a month, and sacrificing our people, in an unwinnable war, to benefit people who want to kill us. I'm not trying to be nasty, just saying how I feel.

I do think though, that welfare has a place in our society, and can serve some worthwhile purposes, but only when it is overseen by an efficient Government, that can protect itself, defend itself, maintain the rule of law, protect it's borders, and answer to it's people, /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
I do think though, that welfare has a place in our society, and can serve some worthwhile purposes, but only when it is overseen by an efficient Government, that can protect itself, defend itself, maintain the rule of law, protect it's borders, and answer to it's people, /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> So then we agree on a lot of this. I feel, as well, that welfare has it's place. Please call me when you find a U.S. Government with the qualities you put forth above and I'll get right behind them.</font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 02:53 PM
Well sure I agree Deeman. You ought to know me well enough by now to know how I hate corruption, and waste. I can't help it if lots of people here insist on branding me as a blind follower of the Democrats. Damn, I keep saying the same thing, but no one believes me! Poor me, I'm a victim!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-17-2007, 04:02 PM
It's funny, I may catch hell for this but....I kinda like Obama for the same reasons a lot of my fellow right wingers don't. he has little experience in politics and policy. Is there something wrong that I think that may be his best asset!!! I'm looking for someone who just might think differently. Now, I know he's anti-war but I'm just saying we need some fresh ideas on both sides, not a recycled republican or democratic plan or non-plan. I do promise to listen to anyone who has new ideas, not shut them out before I find out their ability.

I, too, am thinking the right woman could do a lot of good as President but I am not ready for Hillary. There are probably more than a few out there that would be good but they may never get a shot at the oxygen before the selected candidates are annointed. We shall see....

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
01-17-2007, 06:05 PM
I think you'll also find it funny that I have seen a few Republicans lately, that I like, although, I must admit, they are all among those who have recently spoken out against this administration's policies, particularly regarding Iraq.

I think the coming election will be very interesting. I am a long way from any decision, though. I have already seen a good amount of bi-partisan effort, incredible as that sounds, since the election shake up. I think we may be in for some pleasant surprises, and a shot at some real efforts toward bi-partisanship.

I, too, would prefer some new blood in the White House, although I must admit, Hilliary's statements today, were impressive, to me atleast. Atleast, now that we're seeing efforts toward restoring accountability, the next election, I will have the opportunity to vote for a candidate, instead of feeling that my vote must be first and foremost in the interest of maintaining the Constitutional, check and balancing style governing which I feel we deserve, as Americans, and for protecting our troops from extremely unfair treatment. All in all, I think things may just be looking up, and I'm feeling relieved, and much more optimistic.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
01-18-2007, 05:41 AM
Gayle,
This is a huge statement, considering how many times you stated that the present administration has destroyed our country. I'm happy you have found something to be optomistic about.
As for HC's comments, I would only caution that things said when campaigning are often not what we actually end up getting from a candidate after the election. NP promised honesty and integrity, and look what we got within the first 48 hours. Past actions are usually the best indicator of a person's true values. The Clinton administration lived by polls, and Ms Clinton is very aware of how important it is to say the things she knows the country wants to hear.
That being said, I really am happy to see you moving out of the negative slump.
Steve

Gayle in MD
01-18-2007, 06:08 AM
Thanks Steve, but my negative slump, which I experience as anger over an executive which is completely out of control, and concern over the devastating results of Bush's policies, is still with me. I'm very worried about circumstances in the world. However, I am optimistic now there will be restored oversight of the Executive branch, after such a long free ride, I think you'll agree, things are much worse aroun the world, and for America.

As for Pelosi, I think she's done a good job overall. Much more has been accomplished than we've been used to seeing, these last six years, and also, there is evidence of a renewal of some healthy bi-partisanship between parties. This, I think, is a good sign, given our dire and degrading circumstances in Iraq, and elsewhere.

While I know you don't and didn't agree with my voting philosophy of restoring accountability by removing the blank check Republican Majoirty, last election, so far, I think the result of an apposing party in control, has been a good result, so far. We'll have to wait to see how things progress, but so far, things seems to have improved, IMO. I have great faith in Americans in general. The majority in our great country seem able to embrace good common sense solutions, when they know the true facts, and rally well around a worthy cause. I might add, I have been proud of the brave Republicans who have broken their silence, and taken a stand against misleading statements made recently by Rice, Bush, and Cheney. The list seems to grow every day, and I have observed many that I gneuinely liked, and felt admiration for when listening to their opinions. Who knows, by the next election, I may just have the opportunity to vote for the best candidate, regardless of affiliation, without putting the country at greater risk!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your good wishes are appreciated...

Gayle in Md.

hondo
01-18-2007, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I apologise, maybe you do not know it is true.

DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>

It appears to me that you have become disgusted that
most of the posters on here now have a more liberal
bent than you and you are starting to develop a rather
unpleasant edge to your responses that I never saw before.
You ( and sometimes Steve) seemed the only so-called
conservatives on here that appeared to look at both
sides and often replied with humor.
Perhaps you guys are beaten down and have become bitter.
I don't know. I miss the old Deeman.

pooltchr
01-18-2007, 07:38 AM
Hondo,
I can't speak for Dee, but I do not feel beaten down by anyone with a different view from my own. My core values are most definitely on the conservative side of the coin. It is unfortunate that many Republicans have abandoned the conservative values, and fallen into the trap of putting the party ahead of the country.
I have stated several times that the Bush administration has been a huge disappointment when it comes to fiscal responsibility. While I don't hold out much hope that the Dems will do any better, I will quickly admit it, if and when they show me a difference. Two weeks isn't enough time to make much of a judgement, but I have not been greatly encouraged by what I have seen so far. But I'm willing to give them some time.
If my posts seem to have an edge, it's because I see things I have said become twisted. Politics can be frustrating, particularly when some seem to see it all as black and white....where I see a lot of gray where neither party seems to be interested in putting the country first.
While I continue to try and see both sides of an issue, I will not abandon my conservative viewpoint.
Steve

Deeman3
01-18-2007, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I apologise, maybe you do not know it is true.

DeeMan <hr /></blockquote>

It appears to me that you have become disgusted that
most of the posters on here now have a more liberal
bent than you and you are starting to develop a rather
unpleasant edge to your responses that I never saw before.
You ( and sometimes Steve) seemed the only so-called
conservatives on here that appeared to look at both
sides and often replied with humor.
Perhaps you guys are beaten down and have become bitter.
I don't know. I miss the old Deeman. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Hondo,

I can't argue with what you say here.

DeeMan </font color>

hondo
01-18-2007, 08:25 AM
Steve and Dee, thanks for your honest responses.

wolfdancer
01-18-2007, 10:48 AM
"It appears to me that you have become disgusted that
most of the posters on here now have a more liberal
bent than you and you are starting to develop a rather
unpleasant edge to your responses that I never saw before."

That being the case.....my advice for you is to..........
get bent

Deeman3
01-18-2007, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "It appears to me that you have become disgusted that
most of the posters on here now have a more liberal
bent than you and you are starting to develop a rather
unpleasant edge to your responses that I never saw before."

That being the case.....my advice for you is to..........
get bent <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> et tu Brute? </font color>

eg8r
01-18-2007, 11:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What about you, eg? <hr /></blockquote> I don't really know how that feels to be that poor. My parents do but that was before I was born. I come from a family that works hard for what they have. They carry more than one job if needed to make sure everything is taken care of. On top of all that there was a bit of luck sprinkled around when some of the risks taken happened to work out. Basically my father and mother instilled in me a deep desire to work for whatever I have and to not ask for help if I have not already done everything I could and then a little more.

eg8r

eg8r
01-18-2007, 12:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I felt exactly that way, when after working so hard as a young couple, we purchased our first home near a good school, and the government stepped in and told us that our little girl would be bussed to the ghetto! Believe me, I was furious, and stood on the steps of the Capital, with a placard, where other Mothers, and I, sang the protest song, that I wrote!

The result was that I spent over forty thousand dollars for tuition for private schools, both elementary, and high school, before my daughter ever started college, and that was back in the sixties and seventies. <hr /></blockquote> I see, those people are not good enough for your daughter to attend school with, but they are good enough for my tax dollars to be spent (and increased) while they run around, skip school, make babies, commit crimes, etc.

I exaggerate a little bit, because surely there is not one single person in the "ghetto" who meets all the criteria in the first paragraph. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

hondo
01-18-2007, 01:09 PM
When I said , " what about you, eg?" I wasn't asking
if you were ever poor. I was asking if you could
feel any empathy for the poor.
My mother was seriously handicapped and went to work
every day until in her late 50's she had emphysema
so bad she couldn't work any more. I'm getting ready
to retire at 59 but I'll still have to work part-time.
Looking back over your response, I think I have my
answer. It's basically what I hear from most Republicans:
I work hard for my money, I have money, and I don't
see why everybody can't be like me.
I've seen bums;I've seen leeches, and I've seen people
who are trapped in situations beyond their control.
In your world there's no difference between the three.
If I read you wrong, I apologize.

hondo
01-18-2007, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I felt exactly that way, when after working so hard as a young couple, we purchased our first home near a good school, and the government stepped in and told us that our little girl would be bussed to the ghetto! Believe me, I was furious, and stood on the steps of the Capital, with a placard, where other Mothers, and I, sang the protest song, that I wrote!

The result was that I spent over forty thousand dollars for tuition for private schools, both elementary, and high school, before my daughter ever started college, and that was back in the sixties and seventies. <hr /></blockquote> I see, those people are not good enough for your daughter to attend school with, but they are good enough for my tax dollars to be spent (and increased) while they run around, skip school, make babies, commit crimes, etc.

I exaggerate a little bit, because surely there is not one single person in the "ghetto" who meets all the criteria in the first paragraph. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

No, you weren't exaggerating. You said exactly what
you believe. Oh, if we could just kill those worthless
ghetto people. Think how much of our tax dollars
could be freed? Wheeee! It's makes me giddy!
Hitler wasn't really that far off base, was he, eg?
Gypsies, ghetto trash? Same thing.

eg8r
01-18-2007, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I think you have read me wrong. I basically was saying I cannot honestly put myself in the perspective of these people because I have never been there myself. I don't honestly believe anyone can totally understand anything unless they have lived through it.

eg8r

eg8r
01-18-2007, 01:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, if we could just kill those worthless
ghetto people. <hr /></blockquote> Wow you are really misreading everything I write today. I was just pointing out that Gayle's kids can't go to school with them, she had to pay money to get them out of there.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-18-2007, 02:08 PM
That's right, Eg, we didn't work our tails off and save our money, to buy a nice home in a safe neighborhood, with a good school, only to have the government step in and decide to send my little girl thirty miles up the road to a rough neighborhood to get an education. Her daily safety, at nine years old, was my concern. Instead, she attended a fabulous private school, and high school, which I had really preferred anyway. I just had to make more sacrifices a bit sooner than I had intended, because we were building two companies, at that time. I might add, she was an honor student throughout, graduated high school a year early, was accepted into William &amp; Mary, as an out of state student, (top 2 % in the country) and all is well.

I'm sure it would be fine with you to send your little girl into the ghetto every day, though, since you're so compassionate about the disadvantaged in this world.

Gayle in Md.

hondo
01-19-2007, 06:57 AM
If one can afford to send their kids to a good private school, why not? Does that mean we are to abandon the
public schools where most kids have to go.
I am a public school teacher in a school that year in
and year out scores no.1 in the state on state testing.
My daughter, however, who lives in another county,
scrapes so her kids can go to a private school: smaller
classes, more attention. That's her perogative. She can
barely do it; she knows most can't, and public schools
need the public's support, not condemnation.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Oh, if we could just kill those worthless
ghetto people. <hr /></blockquote> Wow you are really misreading everything I write today. I was just pointing out that Gayle's kids can't go to school with them, she had to pay money to get them out of there.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
01-19-2007, 09:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
...and public schools need the public's support, not condemnation. <hr /></blockquote> You are right it needs the public's support, but I think an overhaul needs to be done. We have discussed this here before and I think we had the same views. The subject of my post really had nothing to do with the schools though.

I agree if one can afford to send their kids to a good private school they should do it. I myself will be doing this very same thing. My reasons are not because the school they will be attending is in the ghetto. This was the reason Gayle gave us for pulling her kids... <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle:</font><hr> I felt exactly that way, when after working so hard as a young couple, we purchased our first home near a good school, and the government stepped in and told us that our little girl would be bussed to the ghetto! Believe me, I was furious, <hr /></blockquote> I might be misreading this, but what I see is that Gayle was near a "good" school but the district had her kid going to the ghetto. She did not want that, and matter of factly she was furious about it. Why should her kid have to go to the ghetto. It comes across as a superiority complex if you ask me.

Sure I could have been reading into it a little more than what is there, but such is life. I live in an area where the public schools are not rated very high academically so I will be sending my children to a private school.

How do you feel about the ABEKA program. One of the schools we have looked at offers this program. I was in the program when I went to elementary and middle schools and found that I was a couple years ahead of my classmates when I entered the public school system for high school.

eg8r

hondo
01-19-2007, 10:28 AM
I just googled it so I would know what you're talking
about. I had never heard of it.Don't really have time
to read about it now.
Being a Christian, I'm always suspicious of anything
that calls itself a Christian program. Sad, huh?

eg8r
01-19-2007, 03:44 PM
Yeah that is sad, but you have to protect yourself these days. Just because it says Christian you never know. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I, on the other hand, had no idea it was a Christian program. Hmm, learn something new every day. I enjoyed the program because I am a natural self-teacher (if that is a word). You work at your own pace.

eg8r