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SPetty
01-22-2007, 01:47 PM
I'm a responsible pet owner. However, I've come to a point that I now own a dog that I do not want.

She's a black lab sweetheart, loves people, loves to play fetch, knows her basic commands and often minds. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But... she occasionally unexpectedly and aggressively attacks my other dog.

What is the proper responsible pet owner to do?

I hate the idea of turning her over to a place that will keep her in a cage until (and a big IF) adopted by the right people. And I'd hate it more if the right people had another dog and my dog behaved the same way. Then they would be in the same situation I find myself in.

We started locking her in the front yard during the daylight hours, and letting her out only at night. A few nights ago, we were awakened at 3 a.m. by this racket of her attacking the other dog yet again, so now she will be locked up in the front yard permanently and forever until I can figure out what to do.

As a responsible pet owner, I'd be willing to take her to the vet to be put down (and to tell you the truth, she made me so angry with this last attack that I could probably do it myself with my own pistol).

But other than this one singular problem, she's a great dog! She has never, ever, ever shown any aggressive tendancies at all towards any human, large or small. She is an absolutely joyful perfect dog to own if you own only one dog. I think she'd be an awesome first dog for someone who doesn't even know if they want a dog, because she's such a good dog.

What is the right thing to do?

Chopstick
01-22-2007, 02:37 PM
Molly? I only remember one dawg. Has she been messin with Black Jack too ?

My little brother had a Black Lab who got grumpy when he got older. I'll ask him.

nAz
01-22-2007, 02:39 PM
"As a responsible pet owner, I'd be willing to take her to the vet to be put down (and to tell you the truth, she made me so angry with this last attack that I could probably do it myself with my own pistol)."

sorry about your doggie. maybe you could contact Cesar Millan for some advice?
If that don't work out i know this Chinese/Korean restaurant that would glady take him off you hands. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

dg-in-centralpa
01-22-2007, 02:46 PM
What about you finding a new home for your dog? Check with your friends.

DG

Deeman3
01-22-2007, 03:25 PM
SPetty,

Option I. Give him to Sid. He needs a companion like nobody's business and hey, if he takes a bite out of Sid every now and then, no one is the worse for wear. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Option II. Aside from that, put a chocker chain around his neck, keep him next to the other dog and every time he even growls, jerk the chain very hard. This may require a couple of hours but he will get the message. Any time after that he gets agressive with the other dog, catch him immediately, hook him up and jerk the chian. He will come to associate his aggression with the discipline.

Option III, shoot him in the back of the head....

Deeman

9 Ball Girl
01-22-2007, 05:43 PM
It can't be sweet Molly that I met 2 years ago can it? And a Lab at that?! That's weird. If worse comes to worse, maybe you can turn the doggie over to <font color="blue">Mutts n More</font color> (http://muttsnmore.com/). They'll take care of finding the perfect family to match the doggie's personality.

Good luck!

S0Noma
01-22-2007, 05:54 PM
Buy a shock collar - then use it to train her NOT to behave aggressively towards the other dog.

My sister and B-I-L have a young lab that wouldn't behave no matter what they tried. They bought it a shock collar and within a very short time - complete co-operation.

Labs (and almost all retrievers for that matter) will typically want to please. That makes them tractable. A few shocks at the appropriate time will send the message that the behavior is NOT okay.

Labs are also very social. It's sad to think that your pet Lab is paying the price for its misbehavior by being outcast . That's very hard on such a loving animal.

Get a collar and use it - your problems will be solved.

Stretch
01-22-2007, 07:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I'm a responsible pet owner. However, I've come to a point that I now own a dog that I do not want.

She's a black lab sweetheart, loves people, loves to play fetch, knows her basic commands and often minds. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But... she occasionally unexpectedly and aggressively attacks my other dog.

What is the proper responsible pet owner to do?

I hate the idea of turning her over to a place that will keep her in a cage until (and a big IF) adopted by the right people. And I'd hate it more if the right people had another dog and my dog behaved the same way. Then they would be in the same situation I find myself in.

We started locking her in the front yard during the daylight hours, and letting her out only at night. A few nights ago, we were awakened at 3 a.m. by this racket of her attacking the other dog yet again, so now she will be locked up in the front yard permanently and forever until I can figure out what to do.

As a responsible pet owner, I'd be willing to take her to the vet to be put down (and to tell you the truth, she made me so angry with this last attack that I could probably do it myself with my own pistol).

But other than this one singular problem, she's a great dog! She has never, ever, ever shown any aggressive tendancies at all towards any human, large or small. She is an absolutely joyful perfect dog to own if you own only one dog. I think she'd be an awesome first dog for someone who doesn't even know if they want a dog, because she's such a good dog.

What is the right thing to do?
<hr /></blockquote>

Are you sure the new Dog is the aggressor? It seems to me that when there is a new animal introduced to the pack the pecking order is thrown out of whack. Your original dog may be feeling threatened and is initiating the fights. As cruel as this might sound dogs will rarely fight to the death. Eventually dominance will be established and there will be peace in the valley. I don't think separation is the answer, they have to work it out. Or for the sanity of the whole family maybe it's best to just find a good home for your second dog. By the sounds of it she is a great dog and would be better off as someones one and only. St.

DickLeonard
01-23-2007, 07:15 AM
SPetty, Nine Ball Girl gave a link to Adopt a Dog, here is my brother and sister-in-law's adopt a dog story.

They filled out the papers, went thru the examination for their being a qualified owner etc. A week after getting the dog they received a call from someone from the agency wanting to know how the dog was adjusting to family.

My sister-in-law started laughing uncontrollable, finally gaining control of herself, she said lady I adopted two children and nobody called, now your calling about a dog.

My daugther has a Black Lab that shows no signs of hostility untill my other daughters Cocker Spaniel comes around. The Cocker Spaniel is the instigator of the hostility.####

Fran Crimi
01-23-2007, 08:56 AM
Check out this website, SPetty. I agree with nAz...contact Cesar Millan. Hey you never know, he might respond, but either way, his website has some great tips in dealing with just that type of situation. Watch his shows whenever you can. I've seen several where he deals with your situation. Apparently it's not uncommon at all.


I've always been negative about getting rid of pets, unless someone in the household is abusing them. You never know how they're going to be treated by someone else. Besides, there's a solution out there somewhere.


Cesar Millan's website (http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/)

Fran

Gayle in MD
01-23-2007, 09:48 AM
If I were in your shoes, I would take the dog to a good obedience trainer, and perhaps, consider taking your other dog also. Selling him will only set up the buyers for a potential problem, either with neighboring dogs, or maybe even kids. Could be that your other dog is the culprit, also, as someone else suggested here. When in doubt, consult an expert! Animals are subject to their animal instincts. IMO, a choking mechanism would not improve your relationship with your dog at all, and might change the parts of the dogs overall spirit and personality that is positive. Often aggressive dogs, have been treated poorly at sometime in their past.

Good luck friend.

Gayle in Md.

Chopstick
01-23-2007, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> SPetty,

Option I. Give him to Sid. He needs a companion like nobody's business and hey, if he takes a bite out of Sid every now and then, no one is the worse for wear. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

LOL. Yeahhhhh! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Molly? I only remember one dawg. Has she been messin with Black Jack too ?<hr /></blockquote>Yep, sweet Molly. She doesn't mess with BlackJack, but the new dog, Tripper, does!

You remember Molly, she was pooping little super balls for days! (just kidding)
http://www.pettypoint.com/poolhall/BDEntry/smallerPics/Singles/001 MollyBall.jpg

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> What about you finding a new home for your dog? Check with your friends. <hr /></blockquote>That's the best idea if I could. It's hard to find a home for a dog with people that don't already own a dog, and they kinda get concerned when I mention why I no longer want this sweet dog.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Option I. Give her to Sid. <hr /></blockquote>That's not a horrible suggestion if I thought Sid would want her and be home enough to play with her a little.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Option II. Aside from that, put a choker chain around her neck, keep her next to the other dog and every time she even growls, jerk the chain very hard. <hr /></blockquote>I'd be willing to do that, but the problem is that she doesn't ever show any aggression or growling or give any hint that she's about to attack.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> It can't be sweet Molly that I met 2 years ago can it? And a Lab at that?! That's weird. <hr /></blockquote>Has it been that long? And yes, regrettably, it's that sweet Molly. Totally wonderful dog until you bring in a sister. I've been struggling with this for over a year, and it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Surprisingly, the vet says that two spayed females are more likely to fight than two intact males. Part of the problem is, I think, that the younger dog isn't fighting back.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote S0Noma:</font><hr> Buy a shock collar - then use it to train her NOT to behave aggressively towards the other dog.

Labs (and almost all retrievers for that matter) will typically want to please.

Labs are also very social. It's sad to think that your pet Lab is paying the price for its misbehavior by being outcast . That's very hard on such a loving animal. <hr /></blockquote>I actually own a shock collar that I bought to help train a dog from chasing chickens. The problem with the shock collar is that you'd have to leave it on the dog all the time and turned on all the time so that once every few weeks or so, if you happen to be there, you can zap the dog when she's attacking the other dog. By then, there probably wouldn't be any juice left in the battery!

I agree that it is very sad. I think that's why I keep giving her another chance. She knows she's doing wrong, but can't seem to stop it.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Are you sure the new Dog is the aggressor? It seems to me that when there is a new animal introduced to the pack the pecking order is thrown out of whack. Your original dog may be feeling threatened and is initiating the fights. As cruel as this might sound dogs will rarely fight to the death. Eventually dominance will be established and there will be peace in the valley. I don't think separation is the answer, they have to work it out. Or for the sanity of the whole family maybe it's best to just find a good home for your second dog. By the sounds of it she is a great dog and would be better off as someones one and only. <hr /></blockquote>You've almost got it right. The original dog, Molly, is the aggressor. The new dog, Tripper, is the victim. There is no question that Molly is the A dog and Tripper is totally submissive to Molly. The way they fight, Molly could easily kill Tripper.

We've brought new dogs in over the years, and there is generally a scrapple or two to determine who's the boss (interesting that it's almost always the new dog) and then everything is fine. One of those times, the new dog put a big tooth hole in the face of the original dog and when I took her to the vet to be patched, the doctor said that we were lucky and it was very close to a vein that could have easily killed the dog.

Molly always attacks Tripper's face, and if what the vet said is true, Molly could easily kill Tripper. She's come close to damaging her eye, and Tripper's face is a bunch of scars.

You say eventually dominance will be established, but it's been a year, Tripper is definitely the submissive dog. Why is Molly still attacking for no reason without provocation?

Other than this one problem, Molly is a good dog.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Check out this website, SPetty. I agree with nAz...contact Cesar Millan.

I've always been negative about getting rid of pets, unless someone in the household is abusing them. You never know how they're going to be treated by someone else. Besides, there's a solution out there somewhere.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Fran,
I had not heard of Cesar Millan until I started asking people about this problem. I'll check out that web site.

I agree with your last paragraph. I feel like I'm abusing this sweet dog by locking her up and not interacting with her. But then I remember that she's been given every chance to behave and has let me down time and time again, at the expense of Tripper, who is a very sweet spirit and doesn't deserve the unwarranted attacks.

SPetty
01-23-2007, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> If I were in your shoes, I would take the dog to a good obedience trainer, and perhaps, consider taking your other dog also.<hr /></blockquote>That's not a bad idea, but how would I find a GOOD trainer?<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Selling her will only set up the buyers for a potential problem, either with neighboring dogs, or maybe even kids.<hr /></blockquote>This dog likes people and has never shown even a tiny bit of aggression towards people, large or small.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Could be that your other dog is the culprit, also, as someone else suggested here. <hr /></blockquote>From the times that I have been there when the attack started, the other dog is not doing anything to cause Molly to attack her. That's a big part of my problem. If the other dog was doing something to provoke Molly, I wouldn't be having such a problem.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>Often aggressive dogs, have been treated poorly at sometime in their past.<hr /></blockquote>I believe that as well when in the context of aggressiveness towards humans. Understand that I am not labeling Molly as an aggressive dog. I do not believe she is an aggressive dog. She does not show any aggression towards humans. She does, however, aggressively attack the other dog.

heater451
01-23-2007, 05:14 PM
Hi SPetty. How old are the two dogs?

If Tripper is under two, she will probably be submissive, until she "grows into her own". She may fight back, after she tops at least 2 years.

I kinda think the way Stretch does, about the pack-order being established, and I know that you've said it's been a year, but you may also need to make sure that you (or your husband) is seen as the Alpha.

Do the attacks seem to be connected to any possessiveness of you, or a family member?

BTW, you might also want to think about actually reinforcing the pack-order, by backing up Molly first. That is, when there's an attack, basically "take over", and show dominance over Tripper first (cutting Molly off), and then turn on Molly. The old, rolled-up newspaper might do it.

Disclaimer: I am not a trainer, nor pretend to be, but canines are pack animals, and we monkeys don't always think the same way.



=================

9 Ball Girl
01-23-2007, 07:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>That's not a bad idea, but how would I find a GOOD trainer<hr /></blockquote>Hey SPetty, I know of an excellent trainer here in NY that helped me train my Lab when I had one. I know, she's in NY and that won't help you any, but I can ask if she knows of any training facility etc. in your parts. I can probably get a Yay or Nay by week's end.

Fran Crimi
01-23-2007, 07:27 PM
What I've learned from watching Cesar's shows (The Dog Whisperer) is that Molly believes that she is the Alpha dog, when in reality, the Alpha dog should be you with both Molly and Tripper submissive to you. When Molly learns to become submissive to you in front of Tripper, then she can learn to not attack her. But at this point, she thinks that SHE is the Alpha dog, which is the problem.

Cesar teaches the owners how to declare themselves the Alpha dog or pack leader without even having to speak verbally to the dogs. The owners are taught to make a 'tsssst' type sound at the dogs when they start to act Alpha-like around them, along with strong leash tugging.

It's really amazing how quickly he gets things to work.

Fran

Stretch
01-24-2007, 07:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> What I've learned from watching Cesar's shows (The Dog Whisperer) is that Molly believes that she is the Alpha dog, when in reality, the Alpha dog should be you with both Molly and Tripper submissive to you. When Molly learns to become submissive to you in front of Tripper, then she can learn to not attack her. But at this point, she thinks that SHE is the Alpha dog, which is the problem.

Cesar teaches the owners how to declare themselves the Alpha dog or pack leader without even having to speak verbally to the dogs. The owners are taught to make a 'tsssst' type sound at the dogs when they start to act Alpha-like around them, along with strong leash tugging.

It's really amazing how quickly he gets things to work.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran, you are right on about the Alpha dog thing. I believe that S petty's dog believes he's in charge over everything. This dog dosn't only want the new one to submit (she already does) this dog wants her gone, period.

I see this all the time. I believe every responsible dog owner should take thier pets for obedience training to lay down the law right off the get go before thier pup is 1 year old. Otherwize their pet will rule the roost.

Here are some common examples of a dog owning you instead of the other way around.

- Your dog enters the house first as you open the door. Your dog strains at it's leash. Alpha dogs lead the way, subordinates FOLLOW.

- Your dog barks at passers bye and ignors your efforts to quiet him. This says, "you can't tell me what to do, I'm the boss"

- Your dog do's not come when he is called. Again, your not in charge, he is.

I'm affraid S-Petty has a lot of work to do with her first pet if it is ever going to except another animal into "his" pack. Personaly i would try and find a good home for that lovely lab and then work on obedience training her first animal. It's going to take a lot of work and patience to set things straight at this point. I guess it just depends on how much time and energy she wants to put into retraining and manageing 2 very different dogs. St.

Chopstick
01-24-2007, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> Molly? I only remember one dawg. Has she been messin with Black Jack too ?<hr /></blockquote>Yep, sweet Molly. She doesn't mess with BlackJack, but the new dog, Tripper, does!

You remember Molly, she was pooping little super balls for days! (just kidding)
http://www.pettypoint.com/poolhall/BDEntry/smallerPics/Singles/001 MollyBall.jpg
<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent picture. That's exactly how I remember her. I have an idea.
Electronic dawg fence. (http://www.radiofence.com/services/go-electronic-fence.htm)

It would definately keep the two of them seperated when you were not around. She may even come to believe that tripper is doing it to her.

Do you ever play with them together? It may be another way to teach them to get along. Get an old towel and start up a pull the towel game. All dawgs love this at any age. Maybe start with two towels, one for each or one long one and throw an end to each with you holding the middle.

The object is that they are both pulling against you together and with one long towel they will inevitably be pulled together and bang against each other. Now when that happens one of them will want to drop the towel and go for the other one but if they drop the towel, you win and they aren't going to wanna let you win. If you can get them in a tug of war with each other that would be ideal.

A special note about the towel game. The dawg always wins. Give a good fight and then let go and let them have it. Molly will want to run with it a bit but she will bring it back. You might want to start them in a game individually to teach them the rules before you put them together. If they happen to let go then dance around and wave it over your head and say I got it. That way they will be more proud of themselves when they get the prize.

The other good thing about the towel game is that it provides a harmless vent for their natural hunting instincts. Their hunter side is where agression comes from. It's natural for them to grab prey and pull it down.

Sid_Vicious
01-24-2007, 12:26 PM
SPetty...I did a word search in Google, "training an aggressive dog", and the first site I opened mirrored many of the replies you have gotten here. Spend some time on the net reading and you'll probably find many common denominators. I used to belong to a discussion group on the particular breed of my dog, and the mutual interests really produced a lot of helpfull support. I imagine there are numerous groups for your breed.

Tons of info on the internet...sid

SPetty
01-24-2007, 01:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "training an aggressive dog"<hr /></blockquote>Thanks, Sid. I'll have a look. The differentiator I was trying to make is that I don't think she's "an aggressive dog" and I wouldn't label her as "an aggressive dog". I knew I would have trouble explaining that differentiator, but I did my best. You've met her - the sweetest, most gentle, ball chasingest puppy around! Except that she occasionally, over the past year or so, since the other dog was a puppy, unexpectedly and aggressively attacks our other dog.

Sid_Vicious
01-24-2007, 04:13 PM
Yea I totally agree, but the simplest search routine with agressive just happens to get the hits, even though it is far from anything near Molly's demeaner except for the other dog. Sorry for the inference...sid

SpiderMan
01-25-2007, 02:40 PM
Are you absolutely, positively certain that your other dog isn't whispering insults in Molly's ear to provoke her, then screaming like a banshee so you'll come running when Molly blows her top? Like the little sister who'd cry like a baby when you didn't really hit her all that hard, just so you'd get a whupping?

SpiderMan