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Qtec
01-24-2007, 04:39 AM
.....of the Perfect Stroke?
ie, if you can pot every ball, do you have the Perfect Stroke?

Q

whipy
01-24-2007, 05:18 AM
the perfect stroke doesn't necessarily mean that you will make every ball. you can have a perfect stroke and still hit the ball on the wrong side.

the perfect stroke is delivering the cue in a perfectly straight line every time, and hitting the exact point you're aiming at.

Fran Crimi
01-24-2007, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?
ie, if you can pot every ball, do you have the Perfect Stroke?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Close to what you said. IMO, it would be a perfect stroke if you can execute all the necessities of the game to perfection, such as ball pocketing, position play, safety play, breaking, etc. Some people may want to call them perfect 'strokes' with an 's' on the end since there are sometimes different techniques used.

The key is that you'd have to be able to execute all the requirements, not just one. There are a lot of imperfect strokes out there where players can get away with a few things, but put the challenge of all things in front of them and then watch how their perfect strokes break down.

Fran

dr_dave
01-24-2007, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?
ie, if you can pot every ball, do you have the Perfect Stroke?<hr /></blockquote>
I think there are many possible definitions depending on context, perspective, and the type of shot you are considering.

Here are two possible definitions:

- perfectly consistent and accurate with speed, direction, and cue tip placement (e.g., Tiger Wood's golf swing isn't this type of perfection, but it is probably as close as humanly possible)

- perfect model of the "best practices" agreed upon by most people (e.g., Tiger Wood's golf swing). One set of "best practices" for a pool stroke can be found here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf). One might refer to this type of stroke as "textbook."

Regards,
Dave

bradb
01-24-2007, 10:05 AM
The whole stroke is a one smooth action, no jerking or change of speed. Its like a piston and the pause should be a smooth transition. Theres a lot of talk about muscles, but I try not to tighten any muscles or move anything but the swing from the elbow. It takes very little muscle to do that. The cue is gripped medium loose and that grip should not change. The cue and the arm are one object. Nothing else should move, after the stroke the cue should be perfectly on line to the shot. This could be defined as a good stroke however every player has their own traits maybe they grip a little tighter or maybe the cue just lays in their hand.

I mentioned this in the pause thread...for me a classic example of a perfect stroke is Allison Fishers, (also Jeanette). When you watch them especially from an overhead shot you have to marvel at how perfectly the cue is alined and goes straight as an arrow and nothing else moves!
(They are also just nice to look at anyway.) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jal
01-24-2007, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?<hr /></blockquote>We're getting awfully philosophical here, aren't we? I mean, this is something only eggheads who can't run three friggin balls would want to know. What's next for heaven's sake, the 'dialectic' of aiming? geeeshh!

Jim

Deeman3
01-24-2007, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?<hr /></blockquote>We're getting awfully philosophical here, aren't we? I mean, this is something only eggheads who can't run three friggin balls would want to know. What's next for heaven's sake, the 'dialectic' of aiming? geeeshh!

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Jim,

I was just about to ask about what the favorite fish of A+ players would be... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color>

DeeMan /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
01-24-2007, 08:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?<hr /></blockquote>We're getting awfully philosophical here, aren't we? I mean, this is something only eggheads who can't run three friggin balls would want to know. What's next for heaven's sake, the 'dialectic' of aiming? geeeshh!

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Don't ever say I didn't do you a favour Jal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Here is 13 minutes of pure magic. Ding makes a 147 video (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=2056551334625467416&amp;q=Ding+snooker )

At 16 points, Ding shows how to get topspin.
Perfect stroke?
Enjoy.

Qtec

bradb
01-25-2007, 12:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?<hr /></blockquote>We're getting awfully philosophical here, aren't we? I mean, this is something only eggheads who can't run three friggin balls would want to know. What's next for heaven's sake, the 'dialectic' of aiming? geeeshh!

I like that... "Dialectic," sounds like you got your own version of english, any other gems from the hinterlands?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
01-25-2007, 12:49 AM
Allright I looked it up, but you can bite me anyway!

bradb
01-25-2007, 03:51 AM
I've had 4 century runs so I can put a few balls together. Why don't you read what I had to say before you open your mouth. Gosh, shucks and whillikers!
-Brad

Jal
01-25-2007, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr><font color="blue"> Jim,

I was just about to ask about what the favorite fish of A+ players would be... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color>

DeeMan /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>I'd be on their diet DeeMan, if I were foolish enough to gamble.

Jim

Jal
01-25-2007, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Don't ever say I didn't do you a favour Jal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Here is 13 minutes of pure magic. Ding makes a 147 video (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=2056551334625467416&amp;q=Ding+snooker )

At 16 points, Ding shows how to get topspin.
Perfect stroke?
Enjoy.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>Thanks Qtec. I'm on dialup so it took a while to download, but was definitely worth it.

Jim

Jal
01-25-2007, 09:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I've had 4 century runs so I can put a few balls together. Why don't you read what I had to say before you open your mouth. Gosh, shucks and whillikers!
-Brad <hr /></blockquote>Brad, my comment was directed at Qtec, who understands the motive behind it. It was not intended as an insult to you or anyone.

Jim

DickLeonard
01-26-2007, 07:27 AM
Fran I keep posting this but no Instructor seems interested in even a online disection of what some people say is the Greatest Player ever Stroke[Efren Reyes]. Everyone avoids it like the plague. How does he make a ball with a stroke that is just a little straighter than Cisero Murphy's.####

DickLeonard
01-26-2007, 07:31 AM
Fran I do believe your system of teaching, holding the cue in your last two fingers creates the best model for a straight stroke.####

Fran Crimi
01-26-2007, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fran I do believe your system of teaching, holding the cue in your last two fingers creates the best model for a straight stroke.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe yes, maybe no, Dick, but I do try to stand by my motto of fixing what's broken rather than changing someone who doesn't necessarily need changing. I've seen teachers do that where they try to change someone's game just because that person's style doesn't suit their teaching program.

I've seen Efren use pressure with the first three fingers and do just fine. I think it takes a lot more practice, but if the player wants to go that way, I wouldn't try to encourage a change unless it's hurting them.

Fran

Deeman3
01-26-2007, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fran I keep posting this but no Instructor seems interested in even a online disection of what some people say is the Greatest Player ever Stroke[Efren Reyes]. Everyone avoids it like the plague. How does he make a ball with a stroke that is just a little straighter than Cisero Murphy's.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Dick,

I thinik most of us agree that you have an advantage over most of us in an analysis of most of the great shooters in history and their respective strokes. I do think Efren has a wonderful stroke of all the loosy, goosy types I have seen. This is certainly not derogatory but you know the difference in the technical strokes of other successful players. I favor the technically disciplined strokes like Mosconi or now the Kaisers (Ralph S.), when he is playing his best and remember Earl's as being very good at his best. It does seem funny that someone like Allen Hopkins with his stab stroke or a sidearm like Keith McCready could ever compete at the top, but they did. My personal favorite was Jimmy Moore, fluid but quiet with that almost motionless slowdown at the end.

I tried to emulate that but did not have the smoothnes in my soul. I tried to shoot with Francisco's stroke and besides missing balls, almost hurt myself. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

How would you describe your stroke? I have never had the pleasure of seeing you play but am sure, as you learned by copying better players in your youth, had certain key elements in your stroke that are worth mentioning. Did you settle on a particular stroke stye early or develop it over many year?

DeeMan

Stretch
01-26-2007, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> .....of the Perfect Stroke?
ie, if you can pot every ball, do you have the Perfect Stroke?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

The perfect stroke is whatever is pleasing to the eye and provides a vivid example of excellence. Everyone's stroke is different in some subtle little way. It's like your walk. You can tell someones walk long before you could identify thier face. So you see perfect stroke could only be owned by a perfect person and i don't think Jesus played Pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St.

Fran Crimi
01-26-2007, 10:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
...and i don't think Jesus played Pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, but if he did, I bet he'd play like God.

Fran

bradb
01-26-2007, 11:09 AM
Appology excepted Jal and appologies back for my misunderstanding. I guess I'm getting a little cranky in my old age. I had a rough night at the league...lost two games over flukes and played my worst in years.Cheers, Brad

DickLeonard
01-26-2007, 11:40 AM
Deeman I will answer this on Monday it will take more time than I have. I went thru 4 or 5 different styles being 5ft 2 till I was 18. I did learn from Joe Canton who Jimmy Moore would always say if he know what Joe knew about straight pool Mosconi would never beat him####

Deeman3
01-26-2007, 11:55 AM
Dick,

Thanks. I look forward to hearing about it.

Respectfully,

DeeMan

wolfdancer
01-26-2007, 12:00 PM
Tuna !!

wolfdancer
01-26-2007, 12:06 PM
Having seen Hals stroke...I can only add that it is based on
the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite; also it's development through the stages of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis in accordance with the laws of "dialectical" materialism.

Chopstick
01-26-2007, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fran I keep posting this but no Instructor seems interested in even a online disection of what some people say is the Greatest Player ever Stroke[Efren Reyes]. Everyone avoids it like the plague. How does he make a ball with a stroke that is just a little straighter than Cisero Murphy's.#### <hr /></blockquote>

The answer to that one is obvious. Rhythm and balance is more important than a mechanically perfect stroke. The only part of the stroke that counts is right before you hit the cue ball. As long as the stick is aligned behind the intended point of impact and line of travel at that moment, how it got there doesn't really matter.

This has been proven many times over in golf. Players like Jim Furyk, Lee Trevno, and Jack Nicklous all had serious swing flaws. Furyk was so bad we used to call him Zorro they way he would fling the club around. When you took a high speed photograph of them at impact they were all in perfect position. At impact, all of the great golfers are in exactly the same position.

I'll bet that if you took multiple point of view photographs of Efren and any other great player at impact and six inches through they would all be the same.

For the majority of people the best way to achieve the optimum impact position is to take the simplest path. The straight back and straight forward pendulum is a good way to learn in the beginning but it is by no means the holy grail.

A stroke is not a mechanical movement. We are not robots. A robot may be able to pull a bow across a violin at the perfect angle but it will never produce a musical tone. A stroke is an expression of a players heart. Each player has his own tune. Some are crude and choppy. Some graceful and awesome to behold. Is one song better than another? Does it matter? What matters is that great pool be played by someone and there is not nearly enough of that to go around IMO.

So, Mr. Q. What is the perfect stroke? The one that most perfectly expresses the game that is in your heart.

bradb
01-26-2007, 03:11 PM
Right on! Chopstick...I agree with the crux of what you are saying...you can't define talent!!! its in the heart and is unique to that person. But I still feel there is no replacement for good technique.
For the beginner proper mechanics is crucial, otherwise you get a developed player (Furyk) with a flaw, and who knows, maybe they could have been even better had they started out correctly. Also we have seen players (Tiger Woods) who made complete changes to achieve a perfect swing. Thats not for everybody of course but it shows it can be done.

Qtec
01-26-2007, 10:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Fran I keep posting this but no Instructor seems interested in even a online disection of what some people say is the Greatest Player ever Stroke[Efren Reyes]. Everyone avoids it like the plague. How does he make a ball with a stroke that is just a little straighter than Cisero Murphy's.#### <hr /></blockquote>

The answer to that one is obvious. Rhythm and balance is more important than a mechanically perfect stroke. The only part of the stroke that counts is right before you hit the cue ball. As long as the stick is aligned behind the intended point of impact and line of travel at that moment, how it got there doesn't really matter.

This has been proven many times over in golf. Players like Jim Furyk, Lee Trevno, and Jack Nicklous all had serious swing flaws. Furyk was so bad we used to call him Zorro they way he would fling the club around. When you took a high speed photograph of them at impact they were all in perfect position. At impact, all of the great golfers are in exactly the same position.

I'll bet that if you took multiple point of view photographs of Efren and any other great player at impact and six inches through they would all be the same.

For the majority of people the best way to achieve the optimum impact position is to take the simplest path. The straight back and straight forward pendulum is a good way to learn in the beginning but it is by no means the holy grail.

A stroke is not a mechanical movement. We are not robots. A robot may be able to pull a bow across a violin at the perfect angle but it will never produce a musical tone. A stroke is an expression of a players heart. Each player has his own tune. Some are crude and choppy. Some graceful and awesome to behold. Is one song better than another? Does it matter? What matters is that great pool be played by someone and there is not nearly enough of that to go around IMO.

So, Mr. Q. What is the perfect stroke? The one that most perfectly expresses the game that is in your heart. <hr /></blockquote>

Chopstick,I take my hat off to you. That was a post that I wanted to write but can't because when it comes to puting my thoughts into words thru a keyboard, I can't run 3 frgn balls! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I totally agree with that 100%.

[ QUOTE ]
So, Mr. Q. What is the perfect stroke? <hr /></blockquote>

What I think doesn't matter /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, the game dictates what the perfect stroke is and like Fran said, its the one that gets the job done. It doesn't have to be pretty.

[ QUOTE ]
at impact and six inches through they would all be the same.
<hr /></blockquote>
Pretty much sums it up.

Q

HALHOULE
01-27-2007, 05:16 AM
Try using Efrens aiming system and you will understand why he does what he does.

Ralph S.
01-27-2007, 01:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I favor the technically disciplined strokes like Mosconi or now the Kaisers (Ralph S.), <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Deeman, I really appreciate the compliment. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Unfortunately, I just realised that you meant Ralf S. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Chopstick
01-29-2007, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
For the beginner proper mechanics is crucial, otherwise you get a developed player (Furyk) with a flaw, and who knows, maybe they could have been even better had they started out correctly. <hr /></blockquote>

Furyk did make a swing change. He stopped taking the club back so far to the outside and cut down that wild compensating move. He won the U.S Open right after he did that.

Fundamentals are critical for the beginning player. IT will save them years of struggle later on. I reached a peak in my game about two years ago. I just couldn't get any better because of fundamemtal flaws in alignment and stroke. I have taken the last two years off from competition to rebuild my game from scratch. So far the results aren't that good. Maybe this year I will finally make it.

Chopstick
01-29-2007, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote HALHOULE:</font><hr> Try using Efrens aiming system and you will understand why he does what he does.

<hr /></blockquote>

HI HAL, HOW's IT GOING. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Just kidding.

I had a close up seat at the IPT in Orlando and I saw Reyes, Bustamonte, and Manolo all set up for their break shot exactly like we talked about. Center to edge, take the offset and bam.

bradb
01-29-2007, 10:35 AM
Interesting, I did'nt know Furyk had worked on ridding himself of the zorro swing.
I identify with you on trying to improve after years of play. I had a bad habit of lifting up immediately after the shot, it took me over a year to stay down because if I did'nt move my head, then I moved something else. Now after two years of constant practice I've finally shown improvement. Oddly enough I've been practising on my 9' table and playing competition in snooker so it illustrates that fundementals are universal.

Chopstick
01-29-2007, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Interesting, I did'nt know Furyk had worked on ridding himself of the zorro swing.
I identify with you on trying to improve after years of play. I had a bad habit of lifting up immediately after the shot, it took me over a year to stay down because if I did'nt move my head, then I moved something else. Now after two years of constant practice I've finally shown improvement. Oddly enough I've been practising on my 9' table and playing competition in snooker so it illustrates that fundementals are universal. <hr /></blockquote>

Yea, this is before:

http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200108/furyk1996.jpg

The middle picture is after:
http://content-golf.live.advance.net/images/gd200108/furykswing1.jpg

See his club is back on plane now. Here is a link to the article where his father is talking about it.
Golf Digest Jim Furyk (http://www.golfdigest.com/instruction/index.ssf?/instruction/swingsequences/gd200108jimfuryk.html)

It just goes to show you that now matter how good you get, even Tiger, The evolution of your swing and your stroke is a life long process.

Qtec
01-29-2007, 06:23 PM
Hal, are you really trying to suggest that the best player in the world NEEDS an aiming system?

Please,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Q

bradb
01-29-2007, 06:28 PM
Great Article!
He has a classic swing now. Club pointed to the hole, head directly over the ball and the finish looks just like Watson's.
I'm wondering if its not a good idea to video tape ones pool stroke. I'm sure Furyk studied his golf swing that way. I thought I had my stroke down well but I looked in a mirror today and I noticed I still have my grip to short.

Voodoo Daddy
01-30-2007, 06:13 AM
IMO...watch some Mizerak video's, you'll get the idea.

Chopstick
01-30-2007, 06:42 AM
I think it is a good idea to tape your stroke and analyse it just like they do the golf swing. You need the standard three views. One from the back, one from the side and one from the front. Camera positioning is important or it will distort the view.

I had a golf pro here in Orlando show me how to setup the camera for these shots and now that I think about it the same position would work for pool. On the rear shot the camera is setup on the toe line at hip level.

The side shot is a little higer and centered on the hands at setup. For pool I would line it up with your head and just about the height of the stick. The front shot I would put just above the rail.

I have a camera I bought just to analyse my golf swing but I have not used it on my pool stroke. I just don't want to see my big fat belly if I don't have to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bradb
01-30-2007, 09:01 AM
Looking forward to taping my stroke with both keen interest and some apprehension. How we think we look and reality could be a bit of a shocker. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stretch
01-30-2007, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Looking forward to taping my stroke with both keen interest and some apprehension. How we think we look and reality could be a bit of a shocker. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Ya it's kind of like hereing your own voice on tape. I always cringe thinking omg is that how other people here me? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif St.

DickLeonard
01-30-2007, 10:17 AM
Voodoo Daddy I never saw his videos but I did see him in action and he was smooth as silk. ####

cushioncrawler
01-31-2007, 01:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> ....The answer to that one is obvious. Rhythm and balance is more important than a mechanically perfect stroke. The only part of the stroke that counts is right before you hit the cue ball. As long as the stick is aligned behind the intended point of impact and line of travel at that moment, how it got there doesn't really matter.

This has been proven many times over in golf. Players like Jim Furyk, Lee Trevno, and Jack Nicklous all had serious swing flaws. Furyk was so bad we used to call him Zorro they way he would fling the club around. When you took a high speed photograph of them at impact they were all in perfect position. At impact, all of the great golfers are in exactly the same position.... <hr /></blockquote> Chops. Some good thorts, but i karnt agree on everything. I love good golfers with peculiar swings, Furyk, Trevino, Miller Barber, Ray Floyd, Fuzzy, Aoki, the weirdest i ever saw (live) was (damb, karnt remember hiz name now).

Anyhow, i remember Johnny Miller saying exactly what u said, about Furyk, something like ..." but hiz pozzy at impact is perfikt".... Then, they froze the slo-mo at impact, and, Furyks pozzy woz absolutely miles from perfikt. Johnny (who haz a sort of peculiar swing himself) didnt say a word, there was a long long long silence. Then the coverage went onto something else.

I followed Johnny at the Ozzy Masters at Royal Melbourne for a while, he is one of my all-time favorit players. One year i walked along with Arnie, u were allowed to walk on the fairway in them dayz, now, Arnie is another peculiar swing. Hiz dad, when asked whether he had taught him that swing style, said, "now that would be a stupid thing to do", meaning that it would be stupid to teach anyone a swing or style, Efren would agree, and so would Hal. madMac.

Voodoo Daddy
01-31-2007, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Voodoo Daddy I never saw his videos but I did see him in action and he was smooth as silk. #### <hr /></blockquote>

Me too buddy...me too and he is missed

bradb
01-31-2007, 10:40 AM
There's Byron Nelson's so called perfect swing, which is usually the standard for most instruction. Bobby Jones was kinda purtie. I remember Greg Norman's chunk shot on 17 which cost him the Masters. You could just see his nerves work their way into that swing which up until that point the commentators were raving about.
I lived in Dallas when Trevino was still a kid working at a local pitch and putt. He would play anybody a round for money using just a Dr Pepper bottle as his club. I would have given a months pay to have seen that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec
01-31-2007, 08:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> IMO...watch some Mizerak video's, you'll get the idea. <hr /></blockquote>

Get what idea?
Qtec

Chopstick
02-01-2007, 06:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> IMO...watch some Mizerak video's, you'll get the idea. <hr /></blockquote>

Get what idea?
Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

His stroke. I loved the way he hit the balls. He was truly great.

Chopstick
02-01-2007, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>
Anyhow, i remember Johnny Miller saying exactly what u said, about Furyk, something like ..." but hiz pozzy at impact is perfikt".... Then, they froze the slo-mo at impact, and, Furyks pozzy woz absolutely miles from perfikt. Johnny (who haz a sort of peculiar swing himself) didnt say a word, there was a long long long silence. Then the coverage went onto something else.

I followed Johnny at the Ozzy Masters at Royal Melbourne for a while, he is one of my all-time favorit players. One year i walked along with Arnie, u were allowed to walk on the fairway in them dayz, now, Arnie is another peculiar swing. Hiz dad, when asked whether he had taught him that swing style, said, "now that would be a stupid thing to do", meaning that it would be stupid to teach anyone a swing or style, Efren would agree, and so would Hal. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

I would have to see the shot to know what you were referring to. Every time I did freeze frames on him, he was perfect. When Johnny Miller was winning a whole bunch of golfers adotped his reverse "C" finish. Golf pros actually taught it as a desirable attribute. Every single person, including Johnny, who did it developed a bad back as a result.

There are certain fundamentals that cannot be ignored. They will not arise naturally and must be taught. Even Efren learned from someone else.