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Bassn7
01-24-2007, 11:14 AM
I've read all the posts concerning the pause. Thank you to all that helped me understand. A question remains: It seems the practice strokes have nothing to do with the speed of the stroke that is actually going to be used. True?

dr_dave
01-24-2007, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> I've read all the posts concerning the pause. Thank you to all that helped me understand. A question remains: It seems the practice strokes have nothing to do with the speed of the stroke that is actually going to be used. True?<hr /></blockquote>You can use the practice strokes to help gage the speed of some shots, but the main purpose for the practice strokes is to relax and verify that your aiming line and cue tip contact point remain true with stroke motion. See item 2 in the stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

qstroker2004
01-24-2007, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>the main purpose for the practice strokes is to relax and verify that your aiming line and cue tip contact point remain true with stroke motion.<hr /></blockquote>

I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.

dwhite

randyg
01-24-2007, 03:10 PM
Very smart Instructor....SPF=randyg

dr_dave
01-24-2007, 03:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>the main purpose for the practice strokes is to relax and verify that your aiming line and cue tip contact point remain true with stroke motion.<hr /></blockquote>

I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree that this is good advice. I've made a small change to item 2 in the stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf). Please see items 1 through 3. If you or others have further recommendations or disagreements, please let me know.

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr
01-24-2007, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr>
I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.

dwhite <hr /></blockquote>

One additional benefit, is you will rarely, if ever, accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip during warm ups if your eyes are on the cue ball. When you look down table, it is very easy for the cue to travel just a little further down table as well, resulting in a foul. And yes, that was a very good piece of information from that instructor. I think I may know who you are talking about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

Scott Lee
01-24-2007, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr>
I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.

dwhite <hr /></blockquote>

You got great advice! The cue goes where the eyes go. If you move your cue (practice strokes) while you're looking somewhere else (OB), your chance to accidentally touch the CB with your tip goes up exponentially! Great personal eye pattern! Keep it up! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

whipy
01-25-2007, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>the main purpose for the practice strokes is to relax and verify that your aiming line and cue tip contact point remain true with stroke motion.<hr /></blockquote>

I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.

dwhite <hr /></blockquote>

so actually when you deliver the cue you are looking at the cue ball?

pooltchr
01-25-2007, 05:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr>
so actually when you deliver the cue you are looking at the cue ball? <hr /></blockquote>

I believe what he was saying was his eyes are on the cue ball when he is doing his warm up strokes. On the final stroke, the eyes have locked in on the target.
Steve

Rich R.
01-25-2007, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr>
so actually when you deliver the cue you are looking at the cue ball? <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I believe what he was saying was his eyes are on the cue ball when he is doing his warm up strokes. On the final stroke, the eyes have locked in on the target.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, that is not necessarily true.

I don't know who this person took lessons from, but, at one time I took a lesson from Scott Lee. At that time, he was teaching to look at the cue ball last, when delivering the cue.
I believe Scott may have changed on this issue, since that time, but that is what he was teaching at that time. Other BCA instructors may have been teaching the same.

After struggling with that method, for a long time, I took lessons with Randy and he said that method was all wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Now, I think I'm caught in the middle, sometimes looking at the object ball last and sometimes looking at the cue ball last.

Brian in VA
01-25-2007, 07:58 AM
Rich,

When I got a lesson from Scott a few months ago, he told me that he used to teach looking at the cue ball last because that's the way he'd shot for many years and only recently changed. I've always looked at the object ball and given little time to looking at the cue ball until recently. I now find myself looking at the cue ball to stroke particularly on close in shots. It really makes me focus on making a better stroke, hitting the exact spot on the cue I need to pot the ball. As a result, my game has come up probably a ball since my lesson with Scott. In combination with having a table at home for daily or almost daily practice, my game feels so much better. I think that as long as you're doing the same thing consistently, and intentionally, it's probably okay. Randy and Scott will, I hope, want to set me straight if I'm wrong.

Now if I can just get this focus thing to come up, too! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brian in VA

randyg
01-25-2007, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr>
so actually when you deliver the cue you are looking at the cue ball? <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I believe what he was saying was his eyes are on the cue ball when he is doing his warm up strokes. On the final stroke, the eyes have locked in on the target.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, that is not necessarily true.

I don't know who this person took lessons from, but, at one time I took a lesson from Scott Lee. At that time, he was teaching to look at the cue ball last, when delivering the cue.
I believe Scott may have changed on this issue, since that time, but that is what he was teaching at that time. Other BCA instructors may have been teaching the same.

After struggling with that method, for a long time, I took lessons with Randy and he said that method was all wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Now, I think I'm caught in the middle, sometimes looking at the object ball last and sometimes looking at the cue ball last. <hr /></blockquote>


RICH: Do you practice Mother Drill #3?????SPF=randyg

Billy_Bob
01-25-2007, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr>...It seems the practice strokes have nothing to do with the speed of the stroke that is actually going to be used. True? <hr /></blockquote>

That's for sure!

I see some players practice stroking quite fast. It looks like they are going to shoot the cue ball quite fast. Then they shoot the shot and it is slow as can be.

So far as speed, some players will use a shorter bridge (distance from tip to bridge hand) for slower shots, and a longer bridge for faster shots.

dr_dave
01-25-2007, 12:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>Now, I think I'm caught in the middle, sometimes looking at the object ball last and sometimes looking at the cue ball last.<hr /></blockquote>For most shots and for most people, focusing on the OB (or ghost-ball target) during the final stroke is preferable. But for certain types of shots (e.g., break shot, jump shots, masse shots, over-a-ball elevated shots), focusing on the cue ball tip-contact point can be more effective.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
01-25-2007, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote qstroker2004:</font><hr>
I took a lesson from a BCA Master instructor quite a long time ago now, and he advocated against stroking while looking at the object ball. His recommendation was to look at the object ball for aiming at the contact point, then shift back to the cue ball and stroke to assure correct contact point on the cue ball and getting the arm loose. Then look back at the object ball without stroking. In other words, you only do one thing at a time. You either look at the object ball in order to get the right aim, or you look at the cue ball and stroke the cue at the aim point on the cue ball. The point in doing it this way is to give your brain only 1 thing to think about at a time. The purpose of stroking is NOT to aim the stick at the object ball -- it is to aim at the cue ball and, I suppose, loosen up the arm for the correct speed.

To this day I shoot this way and it works fine. It seems more simple and less eye shifting...But, like most things there's more than one way to do it. I just wanted to make the point that it is not necessary to stroke the cue to help aim the cue ball.

dwhite <hr /></blockquote>

One additional benefit, is you will rarely, if ever, accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip during warm ups if your eyes are on the cue ball. When you look down table, it is very easy for the cue to travel just a little further down table as well, resulting in a foul. And yes, that was a very good piece of information from that instructor. I think I may know who you are talking about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
There has been lots of good advice in this thread. I've added a few items to the stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf). If anybody still has disagreements or further recommendations, please let me know.

Thanks,
Dave

SpiderMan
01-25-2007, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr>
so actually when you deliver the cue you are looking at the cue ball? <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>I believe what he was saying was his eyes are on the cue ball when he is doing his warm up strokes. On the final stroke, the eyes have locked in on the target.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, that is not necessarily true.

I don't know who this person took lessons from, but, at one time I took a lesson from Scott Lee. At that time, he was teaching to look at the cue ball last, when delivering the cue.
I believe Scott may have changed on this issue, since that time, but that is what he was teaching at that time. Other BCA instructors may have been teaching the same.

After struggling with that method, for a long time, I took lessons with Randy and he said that method was all wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Now, I think I'm caught in the middle, sometimes looking at the object ball last and sometimes looking at the cue ball last. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich,

I played for several years while looking at the CB last, or sometimes shooting while in mid-transition from CB to OB. This was not due to any particular reason other than I developed certain habits as a beginner with no guidance. Later I knew I should work on this, but was sort of lazy and unwilling to back up to re-learn. Still, I played pretty well for a part-timer.

Over the past couple of years, I've been forcing myself to complete my eye-shift to the OB before I shoot. It's been damn hard, and it feels like trying to pat your head while rubbing your stomach, and then smoothly reversing all. But my shotmaking has noticeably improved. Actually, I believe this one commitment has added more to my play than anything I've ever received from books, tapes, or instructors.

I still look at the CB last on the break shot, because the more-upright stance means I'd have to shift my gaze a lot further.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
01-25-2007, 12:46 PM
I think the document is very well-phrased. Did you want to reinforce the idea of looking at the CB during warmup strokes by mentioning the increased risk of a CB foul if done otherwise?

SpiderMan

dr_dave
01-25-2007, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>I think the document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) is very well-phrased.<hr /></blockquote>
Thanks.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>Did you want to reinforce the idea of looking at the CB during warmup strokes by mentioning the increased risk of a CB foul if done otherwise?<hr /></blockquote>I already have this in item 2:

"During your warm-up strokes, it is recommended that you focus on the cue ball. This will help prevent you from hitting the cue ball prematurely by accident, and it also helps reinforce confidence in your tip contact point."

Did you have something else in mind?

Maybe you need to reload the latest version into your browser, because I made a couple of changes about an hour ago.

Thanks again,
Dave

SpiderMan
01-25-2007, 02:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Maybe you need to reload the latest version into your browser, because I made a couple of changes about an hour ago.

Thanks again,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Your explanation is exactly what I was thinking.

I have many of your videos, tutorials, and proofs saved as "favorites", but just now when I instead clicked on your link I see your mention of the foul. I swear I'm not crazy, I didn't see it earlier, before my other post!

SpiderMan

dr_dave
01-25-2007, 02:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Maybe you need to reload the latest version into your browser, because I made a couple of changes about an hour ago.<hr /></blockquote>Your explanation is exactly what I was thinking.

I have many of your videos, tutorials, and proofs saved as "favorites", but just now when I instead clicked on your link I see your mention of the foul. I swear I'm not crazy, I didn't see it earlier, before my other post!<hr /></blockquote>
Sounds like a "senior moment" to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Let me know if you have any other suggestions.

Dave

Rich R.
01-25-2007, 07:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> RICH: Do you practice Mother Drill #3?????SPF=randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randy, I have said many times, I am not good at doing set drills. Repetition of the same shots only makes me want to do something totally different. However, I do put your methods in practice while shooting.
I do look back and forth between object ball and cue ball and I do go through the set, pause and finish, however, whether I look at the cue ball or the object ball last depends on the specific shot. I consider the learning of both methods to be a benefit. For me, on some shots or situations, one way works better than the other. I use what I feel will work best at the time.