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mantis
01-26-2007, 03:34 PM
I have heard different things regarding this. Some say that you do not have to go that far from center to create spin, and adjust the amount of spin with speed of hit. Others say that draw, follow, etc should be controlled by hitting further from center for increased CB movement, and closer for less movement with the same speed stroke being used for all shots. What do you think?

randyg
01-26-2007, 03:38 PM
Yup.

Bob_Jewett
01-26-2007, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> I have heard different things regarding this. Some say that you do not have to go that far from center to create spin, and adjust the amount of spin with speed of hit. Others say that draw, follow, etc should be controlled by hitting further from center for increased CB movement, and closer for less movement with the same speed stroke being used for all shots. What do you think? <hr /></blockquote>
I think that if you really want to control the cue ball over the full range of possibilities, you have to learn how to hit it clear out to miscue territory. And then you want to stay as far from that as possible, all other things being equal.

In another thread, there was a discussion of "quality" of spin. I think it's an important concept that you need to make part of your game.

Billy
01-26-2007, 05:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> I have heard different things regarding this.
Some say that you do not have to go that far from center to create spin, and adjust the amount of spin with speed of hit.

Others say that draw, follow, etc should be controlled by hitting further from center for increased CB movement, and closer for less movement with the same speed stroke being used for all shots. What do you think? <hr /></blockquote>



I like what others say ...

if you know your stroke, I think you're able to move your cueball around much easier by hitting on the extreme outside of the cue ball or as Bob put it 'miscue territory'

and if you're a student of the game striving to know and understand your stroke ... this will help in becoming a more consistent player sooner

jmo

Deeman3
01-26-2007, 05:55 PM
The "secret" of all this might be best stated as " hit it as conservatively, from center as the shot will allow, until you have to bring it on." The problem with a lot of players is they use too much even when almost none will do. Anytime you go out in no man's land you face a risk, no matter how small. Why introduce it to most of your shots.

DeeMan

Jal
01-26-2007, 06:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mantis:</font><hr> I have heard different things regarding this. Some say that you do not have to go that far from center to create spin, and adjust the amount of spin with speed of hit. Others say that draw, follow, etc should be controlled by hitting further from center for increased CB movement, and closer for less movement with the same speed stroke being used for all shots. What do you think? <hr /></blockquote>There's some information that has come up recently that I think is pertinent to the question. It has to do with how much spin is rubbed off the cueball on a full hit (or nearly full hit for that matter).

When the cueball has relatively little spin on it compared to speed (a small spin/speed ratio), a virtually constant 35% is removed by the object ball. When the cueball has a large amount of spin compared to speed (high spin/speed ratio), the amount taken off by the OB is more variable, but relatively small, so variations don't make that much difference.

In-between ratios are more of a problem because the amount removed varies more rapidly with differences in spin. See the second graph on page 4 here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-27.pdf) for more detailed information on this. (Note: The amount of spin removed is the same as the amount transfered to the OB, and the graph applies to draw/follow as well as to english if you consider the amount of spin it has when reaching the OB.)

So this alone suggests that, depending the shot, you'll be more consistent with either hitting close to center, or far from it.

Another thing to consider is how sensitive the cueball's spin (just before impact with the OB) is to errors in stick speed at various tip offsets and distances between the cueball and object ball. I've looked at this in the past, but don't have the results at my fingertips. You're probably more interested in players' experiences anyway. Mine is that for small amounts of draw, where the balls are close to each other (a foot or so), I do better when hitting harder and close to center. For follow, hitting softer and high seems to do the trick, regardless of distance.

Jim

Sid_Vicious
01-26-2007, 06:19 PM
My take is this...far outside or into of the so-called possible miscue zone of the CB is VERY important for "cruising speed" position, BUT having watched many much better players(consistent) that I use pure punch and force along with more center-zone hits, I probably think that the failure rate is vastly reduced. Thing though is that you are always told, "Most everyone hits the ball too hard. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't", back to the drawing board /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif...sid

Qtec
01-26-2007, 09:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Mine is that for small amounts of draw, where the balls are close to each other (a foot or so), I do better when hitting harder and close to center. <font color="blue">Absolutely Jal. </font color> For follow, hitting softer and high seems to do the trick, regardless of distance. <font color="blue"> If you have a straight shot,4ft between QB and OB and you want to run thru 3inches,do you roll the QB?</font color>

Q
<hr /></blockquote>

Jal
01-26-2007, 10:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> For follow, hitting softer and high seems to do the trick, regardless of distance. <hr /></blockquote><font color="blue"> If you have a straight shot,4ft between QB and OB and you want to run thru 3inches,do you roll the QB?</font color><hr /></blockquote>You're right of course Qtec. I'm not as comfortable with stun-run-through as you? snooker players, which may be why I didn't have this situation in mind.

Jim

Rod
01-26-2007, 11:55 PM
There's not a simple answer to your question. Well, there is in reality, you use them all.

Rod

Billy_Bob
01-27-2007, 07:47 AM
I would suggest buying a "Jim Rempe Training Ball".

On one side of this ball, it is numbered going from the center outwards 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

5 being the furthest out.

You can get this ball and see where you can hit to get more/less draw, follow, etc.

Note: Beginners when using this ball are not careful to set it so it is perfectly "level" (that the red lines going around the ball are *straight* up and down). This is important so the numbers are in the correct spot, and when you are aiming at 2, it is where 2 should be. But then beginners are not careful about their shots in other ways either, maybe being more careful and taking more time with shots is what is needed!

Jim Rempe Training Ball...
http://www.fivestarbilliards.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&amp;Store_Code=F&amp;Product_Code =11-132

Fran Crimi
01-27-2007, 02:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Others say that draw, follow, etc should be controlled by hitting further from center for increased CB movement, and closer for less movement with the same speed stroke being used for all shots. What do you think? <hr /></blockquote>

What pro players do you know who shoot with the same stroke speed for all shots? I can't think of one.

Fran

Sid_Vicious
01-27-2007, 04:22 PM
Allison is close...sid

ceebee
01-27-2007, 04:36 PM
Hi Mantis, if I could assist you in learning to play very good Pool, would you give me a couple thousand dollars, paid out in increments, of course?

If the answer is yes.... contact a good Instructor &amp; allow that instructor to bring you up to speed in a few short months, rather than peter panning around on the internet &amp; learning thru error &amp; trial.

2 thousand dollars, spread over 2 years is about $85 a month. I learned to play very good Pool, over a span of 10 years. If I could go back, I'd be begging somebody to be my Coach. They weren't around in 1960.

bradb
01-27-2007, 04:58 PM
Practice, practice, practice.
Learn the siding needed to get to the next shot. If you don't get there, set up the shot again till you do. Learn the stun and master it! Practice slight stun back or slight roll forward.
Occasionally you will need extreme siding and pace, practice that too.
And YES!...get the training ball! They are expensive but you can see how your spin is working. You can never learn enough about this crazy game. Just when you think you've got it, it jumps up and bites you.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

mantis
01-28-2007, 07:30 AM
I have the Jim Rempe ball already. I know he says to use a repeatable stroke and just change where you hit the ball. I have heard others say different. That is where the question originated. I guess speed control of the shot is my greatest difficulty.

Fran Crimi
01-28-2007, 07:54 AM
Why would I make a statement like that and exclude Fisher? No, she's not close.

Fran Crimi
01-28-2007, 07:59 AM
Jim is one of my favorite players. I've always admired his stroke timing. However, out of the 30 years I've known him, I can't imagine him saying the words 'repeatable stroke.'

Fran

Sid_Vicious
01-28-2007, 08:32 AM
Let me put it another way. She is closer than most, IMO that's why she kicked butt like she did when she appeared in 9-ball. Frankly speaking I feel Allison has waned in consistency since letting her stroke out for the sake of 9-ball. I used to never see her move during a shot, but it happens now whereas it did not during her total dominance. Jm2c...sid

Fran Crimi
01-28-2007, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Let me put it another way. She is closer than most, IMO that's why she kicked butt like she did when she appeared in 9-ball. Frankly speaking I feel Allison has waned in consistency since letting her stroke out for the sake of 9-ball. I used to never see her move during a shot, but it happens now whereas it did not during her total dominance. Jm2c...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Did somebody tell you this or did you think this up all on your own?

Fran

bradb
01-28-2007, 10:46 AM
My snooker instructor stressed that whether a long shot with pace or a short easy stun, the stroke should be the same for allmost all shots. Same draw back, same follow through. That way you will never miscue or slash trying too much power or have a ball roll off trying to slow roll. All you change is setting the QB striking area. I watched him shoot a 145 in practice and he could screw the QB back the length of the table or go ahead 5" with the same stroke. However since coming back to the small table I've found I've had to modify that for the heavier balls but basically its the same stroke.

Fran Crimi
01-28-2007, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> My snooker instructor stressed that whether a long shot with pace or a short easy stun, the stroke should be the same for allmost all shots. Same draw back, same follow through. That way you will never miscue or slash trying too much power or have a ball roll off trying to slow roll. All you change is setting the QB striking area. I watched him shoot a 145 in practice and he could screw the QB back the length of the table or go ahead 5" with the same stroke. However since coming back to the small table I've found I've had to modify that for the heavier balls but basically its the same stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I'm familliar with that theory, but if you're going to try to play that way, you're going to find exceptions all over the place and not just with the heavier balls.

Fran

bradb
01-28-2007, 12:12 PM
Yeah, I hear ya. Much of the play in snooker is safety but now I'm taking on ridiculous angles and using siding I rarely used before. But the biggest difference is the fast cloth, for a short pot I've shortened my stroke also to lessen the chance of QB drift.
-Brad

Fran Crimi
01-28-2007, 08:04 PM
Right, plus with pool you have to consider ball pocketing speed. I know that snooker players aren't too keen about potting shots along the rail, but with pool, as you know, they're very makeable. But even though they're makeable, stroke speed adjustments are often necessary if one doesn't want the object ball to pop out of the pocket. That often translates into using more spin and less force if you need to move the cue ball a substantial distance for position play. Case in point: Efren Reyes. He's the best there is at that precise thing.

Fran

bradb
01-29-2007, 11:51 AM
Yes thats another occassion where you might want to adjust pace.
But I wonder if thats just a style that Efren prefers. If you hit the OB clean it goes with your normal pace. You can get back up the table with exactly the same pace as staying right there. So that means a constant stroke will work just as well. My case in point is Steve Davis (no bias there of course!) Granted I would put my money on Efren in a heads up match.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Stretch
01-29-2007, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> My take is this...far outside or into of the so-called possible miscue zone of the CB is VERY important for "cruising speed" position, BUT having watched many much better players(consistent) that I use pure punch and force along with more center-zone hits, I probably think that the failure rate is vastly reduced. Thing though is that you are always told, "Most everyone hits the ball too hard. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't", back to the drawing board /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif...sid <hr /></blockquote>

My mantra for most position shots is " help the cueball do what it wants to do anyways ". Work with what you have in a way that gets you on the next ball with as little to do as possible. St.