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whipy
01-30-2007, 04:10 PM
I've been hearing and reading everywhere that the only body part that should move during a stroke is the lower arm. But today I had a private lesson (an expensive one at that) from our national 9-ball champion, and he told me that in order to make the follow-through longer and get more spin, after impact you should also move your upper arm forward in a straight line(elbow to shoulder).

Let's say your CB is at the second diamond and the OB is diagonally at the other side of the table at the second diamond (straight-in shot). When he plays that shot (at medium speed) the tip of his cue ends up near the middle of the table! True, he's able to draw his CB onto the parking lot so to speak, but after what i've been reading this really confuses me. It just doesn't seem right... In using more body parts, doesn't it get tougher to get them adjusted to one another correctly? What are your thoughts on this?

pooltchr
01-30-2007, 04:53 PM
There are many players who do very well with a lot of unnecessary body movement. Over many years and many hundreds of hours of practice, they can be consistant while using unorthodox mechanics.

As a student, the best way to become consistant is to use a simple pendulum stroke where the only movement is with the forearm. It is simple, and when properly executed, can produce the same results. It's also much easier to learn and to perfect. I have shown many students how to get maximum draw with the simple pendulum stroke.

While it may work for your champion, it may make your learning process much more difficult. Stick with the simple stroke. I think you will find the improvement comes much more quickly that way.
Steve

bradb
01-30-2007, 06:51 PM
Pooltchr is absolutely correct!!!
Stick with the fundamentals.

HALHOULE
01-30-2007, 11:05 PM
NO

whipy
01-31-2007, 01:42 AM
well, it makes sense in a way, the longer the follow-through the more action you get on the cueball. i'll have to find a way in between somehow. all this confusion is driving me nuts /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif thanks for your reply.

pooltchr
01-31-2007, 06:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr> the longer the follow-through the more action you get on the cueball. <hr /></blockquote>

I can't agree with this statement, and if I gave that impression, I apologize. The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is a direct result of two things; the location of the tip on the cue ball at contact, and speed the cue is traveling when it makes contact. The amount of "follow through" should be whatever it takes to bring your stroke to a natural finish. For some players it may be 3 or 4 inches...for others, 6 or 8 inches. If your cue is accellerating or at it's maximum rate of accelleration when it makes contact, if you contact the cue ball in the proper spot, and if you finish your stroke naturally, you will get the desired effect on the cue ball.
Steve

Stretch
01-31-2007, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr> the longer the follow-through the more action you get on the cueball. <hr /></blockquote>

I can't agree with this statement, and if I gave that impression, I apologize. The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is a direct result of two things; the location of the tip on the cue ball at contact, and speed the cue is traveling when it makes contact. The amount of "follow through" should be whatever it takes to bring your stroke to a natural finish. For some players it may be 3 or 4 inches...for others, 6 or 8 inches. If your cue is accellerating or at it's maximum rate of accelleration when it makes contact, if you contact the cue ball in the proper spot, and if you finish your stroke naturally, you will get the desired effect on the cue ball.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve i'd like to believe that it's just as simple as speed and location to get desired effect but on the other hand "type" of stroke seems to facilitate the desired effect in a lot of positive ways and cannot be ruled out as unneccecary motion. For instance when i'm looking at a slight angled draw shot. If i want a deep draw that bends around like a banana and comes back then i will apply an exaggerate follow through to the shot. If on the same shot i want the cueball to come immediately back with as little lateral movement as possible i'll hit a snap back draw with very little follow through. I would find it extremely difficult to get both results with exactly the same stroke. This tells me there is "something more" than just speed and location. Although for the life of me i couldn't tell you what. It's enough for me that i get the results that way. St.

Brian in VA
01-31-2007, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr> well, it makes sense in a way, the longer the follow-through the more action you get on the cueball. i'll have to find a way in between somehow. all this confusion is driving me nuts /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif thanks for your reply. <hr /></blockquote>
The cue ball is in contact with the tip for such a short period of time it really doesn't matter what kind of follow through you have. What Steve is saying is that it's easier for people who are learning to perform this shot by completing a correct stroke and that is easier by moving only the forearm. (Fewer moving parts means less chance for error.) The fact is, the cue ball doesn't know which part you moved only that it was hit in a particular spot with a certain amount of speed and in a certain direction. It behaves as only it can, along the laws of physics.

Brian in Va - not a physics expert or instructor; just listening to facts.

thunderball
01-31-2007, 08:59 AM
I think follow through is what he is trying to drill into you and that may be because he sees a lack of it.

While you may not get "truer" spin because you follow through,you sure as heck won't come up short in the spin department because you chased the ball with your stick.

Try hitting a golf ball off the tee and stopping a foot after contact for instance.
What does it matter?After all you already hit the ball?
Does it go as far?Where you want?Harder to control? Same difference here imo.

The thing is the "contact" imo should be be seconadry to the stroke.Play your cue through the ball every chance you get.Soft shots,hard ones,top, bottom whatever.

One of the best things I ever did for my pitiful game is this;

Bridge close.Now move your back hand in to where its uncomfortable then back it up just a few inches.This will make your shot smaller and offers less room for error.

BUT.... it also not only allows for follow though,it encouages it.

Play you cue stick through the ball every chance you get.Its the only repeatable action you can sustain imo and there for offers the only repeatable reults.

This advice does not take into account what "part of the arm" you use or don't and I don't disagree with most of what I have read in this thread....but I'll bet if you try it you'll see.

And play though em all if you can.Its the stroke not the "hit" that you control.

Chopstick
01-31-2007, 09:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr> In using more body parts, doesn't it get tougher to get them adjusted to one another correctly? What are your thoughts on this? <hr /></blockquote>

This is an advanced technique. If you want to develop it I would practice it in private for at least a year before I tried to use it in a game. It has to ingrained to the level that it becomes an unconscious move. If you try to do it purposefully in a game you will sell out more times than you will win with it.

Many people do it on their break shot and are not aware that they are doing it. This causes problems with control. I have a friend who drops his elbow on his break and as a result his tip is rising when he contacts the cue ball. He always hits higher on the ball than he intends to. Eight out of ten of his nine ball breaks wind up with his cue ball tangled up behind the rack. He can't stop the cue ball from going forward on his break. It's the upper arm movement that causes it.

So, first you have to decide if you need it. Does your style of game need that feature? How often would you actually use that much spin? Do you have time to practice regularly to keep your timing in sync? You can't put his stroke on the shelf for a couple of months and still expect it to work. You have to keep it refreshed.

If you have the time ad patience to develop it properly it can be an awesome weapon but still 99% of all the shots you shoot will be shot with a simple pendulum.

dr_dave
01-31-2007, 09:39 AM
Steve,

Excellent post!

Stretch,

Excellent reply.

I completely agree with Steve, and I understand Stretch's point. People sometimes need to do different things to achieve stick speed. See my previous post on follow-through (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=223913&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) for more information.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote whipy:</font><hr> the longer the follow-through the more action you get on the cueball. <hr /></blockquote>

I can't agree with this statement, and if I gave that impression, I apologize. The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is a direct result of two things; the location of the tip on the cue ball at contact, and speed the cue is traveling when it makes contact. The amount of "follow through" should be whatever it takes to bring your stroke to a natural finish. For some players it may be 3 or 4 inches...for others, 6 or 8 inches. If your cue is accellerating or at it's maximum rate of accelleration when it makes contact, if you contact the cue ball in the proper spot, and if you finish your stroke naturally, you will get the desired effect on the cue ball.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve i'd like to believe that it's just as simple as speed and location to get desired effect but on the other hand "type" of stroke seems to facilitate the desired effect in a lot of positive ways and cannot be ruled out as unneccecary motion. For instance when i'm looking at a slight angled draw shot. If i want a deep draw that bends around like a banana and comes back then i will apply an exaggerate follow through to the shot. If on the same shot i want the cueball to come immediately back with as little lateral movement as possible i'll hit a snap back draw with very little follow through. I would find it extremely difficult to get both results with exactly the same stroke. This tells me there is "something more" than just speed and location. Although for the life of me i couldn't tell you what. It's enough for me that i get the results that way. St. <hr /></blockquote>

bradb
01-31-2007, 09:47 AM
As I noted before and by several players above, "stick with the fundamentals" as you develope your stroke. Power shots are for very advanced players and are rarely needed in a game, I.E. masse.
Given the two instructors (Pooltchr, or your home grown guy) its obvious who I would recommend.

-I'm gonna have to get a slogan to sign off with, thinking about: "fundamentals rule" but thats kinda boring, any ideas out there? -Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jal
01-31-2007, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>...For instance when i'm looking at a slight angled draw shot. If i want a deep draw that bends around like a banana and comes back then i will apply an exaggerate follow through to the shot. If on the same shot i want the cueball to come immediately back with as little lateral movement as possible i'll hit a snap back draw with very little follow through. I would find it extremely difficult to get both results with exactly the same stroke. This tells me there is "something more" than just speed and location.<hr /></blockquote>Stretch,

I believe it's lying. Aside from a very slight effect, it is just speed and location. Follow through is an indicator of how much speed was present. Thunderball's golf swing analogy explains it.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?

Jim

Deeman3
01-31-2007, 06:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> If on the same shot i want the cueball to come immediately back with as little lateral movement as possible i'll hit a snap back draw with very little follow through.
St. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

I am one of the guys, years ago, that would have laughed at this statement. This is one item I learned from Tim "The Monk". Like I have said before, I have learned something from every instructor I have known. I know physics would probably predict that this does not work as you state. It does, I don't know why. I don't care why.... </font color>

DeeMan

Qtec
01-31-2007, 08:09 PM
Quote Chopstick:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?
Jim



Come on Jal, where's your sense of humour. LOL [ its funny, what can I say?]

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
01-31-2007, 08:13 PM
Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed.

...but you already knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec

TUniversal
01-31-2007, 08:24 PM
Dr. Dave,

Where can I find your May'06 instructional article that speaks of stroke in item "b" under "other advice" and item "5" under "stroke best practices"?

Thanks,

Takeem

Jal
02-01-2007, 12:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed.<hr /></blockquote>First, a prolegamanon to a metaphysik of stroke. And now, a dissertation on spin/speed and its importance in the analysis of path transformations???

What is going on here? Have you completely lost it? Has that dastardly Dr. Dave, through the many and nefarious means he's been known to employ, made a convert of you too? Have you noticed your runs falling off lately?

Whatever it is Qtec, keep up the good work. Don't fight it, it's too late for that. Just let those charts and equations and vectors flow unto thine being, like manna from the gardens of the gods. While your days of running balls are over, remember, it's much, much better to have a profound understanding of why you haven't got a chance in hell of making the next shot, than to mindlessly pot balls all day long. Let your opponents do the grunge work. You sir, will now enjoy the endless delights of theoretical pool. Welcome to the club. A pocket protector has already been mailed out.

Jim &lt;--- giddy with anticipation of what you'll lay on us next /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chopstick
02-01-2007, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">You didn't like that? Dr. Dave gave an A+. I am having tee shirts made. Want one? I think it is a classic and there is a lesson to be learned from it. When you stand over a shot you should only be thinking about where, not how or what.

I am not berating your game or your knowledge. I poke fun at everyone and everything equally. I even posted on the dialectics of aiming at your request. I noticed you declined to comment. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TUniversal:</font><hr> Dr. Dave,

Where can I find your May'06 instructional article that speaks of stroke in item "b" under "other advice" and item "5" under "stroke best practices"?<hr /></blockquote>All of my articles can be found on my website here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html). The link in my previous posting on follow-through no longer works. Here are direct links to my May '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/may06.pdf) and my stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed.<hr /></blockquote>First, a prolegamanon to a metaphysik of stroke. And now, a dissertation on spin/speed and its importance in the analysis of path transformations???

What is going on here? Have you completely lost it? Has that dastardly Dr. Dave, through the many and nefarious means he's been known to employ, made a convert of you too? Have you noticed your runs falling off lately?

Whatever it is Qtec, keep up the good work. Don't fight it, it's too late for that. Just let those charts and equations and vectors flow unto thine being, like manna from the gardens of the gods. While your days of running balls are over, remember, it's much, much better to have a profound understanding of why you haven't got a chance in hell of making the next shot, than to mindlessly pot balls all day long. Let your opponents do the grunge work. You sir, will now enjoy the endless delights of theoretical pool. Welcome to the club. A pocket protector has already been mailed out.

Jim &lt;--- giddy with anticipation of what you'll lay on us next /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Nice one, Jal.

I think Qtec has been "asking for" this lately.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed.<hr /></blockquote>
This is exactly the topic of my March '05 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2005/march05.pdf). If people want to view illustrations and videos and see some examples of how this knowledge is applied in game situations, see the article.

Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue">You didn't like that? Dr. Dave gave an A+. I am having tee shirts made. Want one? I think it is a classic and there is a lesson to be learned from it. When you stand over a shot you should only be thinking about where, not how or what.

I am not berating your game or your knowledge. I poke fun at everyone and everything equally. I even posted on the dialectics of aiming at your request. I noticed you declined to comment. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

I gave your original posting an A+ based on its humor at the time, but now you are taking it a little too far. Poking fun at somebody is funny the first time ... but it is immature when done multiple times.

Also, it is ridiculous to imply that a person with knowledge of physics equations would actually do calculations in their head while playing. (I'm not sure your actually think this or not, but I have often seen it implied on this forum.) The physics is for developing understanding, not for playing. Even a physicist focuses on making a shot when playing at the table.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?<hr /></blockquote>Come on Jal, where's your sense of humour. LOL [ its funny, what can I say?]

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>Again, it was funny the 1st and even 2nd time, but not the 3rd, 4th, 5th ... time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Where's the maturity, respect, and brotherly love? /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Dave

bradb
02-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Well Whipy are you totally lost now as I am?....its enough to have you slashing the ball off the table and crouching in the corner a quivering mass of jello praying to the pool gods for guidance. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

whipy
02-01-2007, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Well Whipy are you totally lost now as I am?....its enough to have you slashing the ball off the table and crouching in the corner a quivering mass of jello praying to the pool gods for guidance. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

i was just about to ask what the hell happened to the original topic /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Stretch
02-01-2007, 11:25 AM
Dave, on the subject of developing stick speed Fran had a very good suggestion for CONTROLING that speed. It's funny she was talking about something else about the stroke and mentioned about starting out slowly and building up speed that way. So i'm kinda running with the ball with that little tid bit and found YEP great advice! You see when you explode all that speed suddenly from the back stroke pause it's real easy for it to get away on you, or miss your timing. By starting out slowly, like a slight forward movement over the first few inches and then pour it on, you have more control. St.

Deeman3
02-01-2007, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed. <font color="blue"> The technicrat in me has to say: That it's actually not returning at the sharpest angle but only achieving that same angle at an earlier period during that shot. Yep, I knew that.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

DeeMan

...but you already knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec
<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 01:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Dave, on the subject of developing stick speed Fran had a very good suggestion for CONTROLING that speed. It's funny she was talking about something else about the stroke and mentioned about starting out slowly and building up speed that way. So i'm kinda running with the ball with that little tid bit and found YEP great advice! You see when you explode all that speed suddenly from the back stroke pause it's real easy for it to get away on you, or miss your timing. By starting out slowly, like a slight forward movement over the first few inches and then pour it on, you have more control. St. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree 100%. Smooth acceleration is key. See item 5 in my stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf). I think a deliberate pause helps create a smoother start.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
02-01-2007, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?<hr /></blockquote><font color="blue">You didn't like that? Dr. Dave gave an A+. I am having tee shirts made. Want one? I think it is a classic and there is a lesson to be learned from it. When you stand over a shot you should only be thinking about where, not how or what.

I am not berating your game or your knowledge. I poke fun at everyone and everything equally. I even posted on the dialectics of aiming at your request. I noticed you declined to comment. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

I gave your original posting an A+ based on its humor at the time, but now you are taking it a little too far. Poking fun at somebody is funny the first time ... but it is immature when done multiple times.

Also, it is ridiculous to imply that a person with knowledge of physics equations would actually do calculations in their head while playing. (I'm not sure your actually think this or not, but I have often seen it implied on this forum.) The physics is for developing understanding, not for playing. Even a physicist focuses on making a shot when playing at the table.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the support Dr. Dave. It's very much appreciated.

Jim

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 01:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Thank you for the support Dr. Dave. It's very much appreciated.<hr /></blockquote>
Jim,

You are very welcome. You have taken more than your fair share of abuse from the "knowledge haters" lately.

Thanks again for all of your help with my spin transfer stuff,
Dave

Jal
02-01-2007, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
tan(gamma) = [(1/7)Vsin(theta)]/Vcos(theta) = (1/7)tan(theta) = (3 Friggin Balls)<hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

If you feel you have a good argument as to why an understanding of throw is detrimental, let's hear it. But I think that quoting a part of someone else's post completely out of context, and then characterizing it as either useless or harmful, is just a wee bit rude, don't you think?

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">You didn't like that? Dr. Dave gave an A+. I am having tee shirts made. Want one? I think it is a classic and there is a lesson to be learned from it. When you stand over a shot you should only be thinking about where, not how or what.

I am not berating your game or your knowledge. I poke fun at everyone and everything equally. I even posted on the dialectics of aiming at your request. I noticed you declined to comment. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>Chopstick,

I don't want to make a big deal of it, but wouldn't you feel a bit insulted if someone took something you said and used it in their signoff, in apparent mockery? I know that you and Qtec have good senses of humor, and that I haven't been exactly holding back myself. Maybe we're just on different frequencies. In that vein, perhaps we should all take a lesson from Fast Larry Gunninger on the proper application of non-aggressive, light-hearted forum jocularity. In the meantime, for what it's worth, your signoff still makes me feel a little...well, devastated.

Sorry about the "dialectic" thread, I just didn't have anything to say. But it was funny (in a terrible, mean-spirited, nasty, horrid kind of way.) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim

Deeman3
02-01-2007, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> but wouldn't you feel a bit insulted if someone took something you said and used it in their signoff, in apparent mockery? Jim <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> O.K. Jim. I'll mock Chopstick. Hey, Chopstick! You sleep around. Yep, I've said it! You make most of us sick with your laying around all the time with numberous blond, well endowed young women and I, for one, am damn tired of it. As well, you make entirely too many balls when shooting pool. For all I know your Mafia friends down in the Sunshine State are supplying you with illicit Cuban cigars as well. I hereby mock your values, your lifestyle and f**t in your general direction. I challenge you to Yard Darts at 30 paces the next time we meet. And I will get revenge for that Texas nine ball tournament where you unfairly defeated me using the shady tactics of skill, composure and sobriety....</font color>

DeeMan
Chopstick, you sir....are a heterosexual...take that!

bradb
02-01-2007, 02:49 PM
This tekkie versus players dialogue is very amusing. It took me a while to understand that Dr Dave is delving into the science of rotating orbs and not advising players on applying technique but rather the understanding of whats happening in the physics of play. However I'm finding that some of the terminology needs to be corrected as occasionally I hear something that is impossible in execution. For instance someone mentioned hitting the ball with less speed but more spin. I've been playing this game a long time and I have yet managed to accomplish that feat? Spin is siding, speed is pace. The latter defines the former.

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 03:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>This tekkie versus players dialogue is very amusing. It took me a while to understand that Dr Dave is delving into the science of rotating orbs and not advising players on applying technique but rather the understanding of whats happening in the physics of play.<hr /></blockquote>
FYI, I don't appreciate your description of what you think I do. In my humble opinion, you are grossly wrong. My articles, videos, and book are full of information useful to a pool player. Have you read any of my instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html)? Would you consider my stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) or my contributions to helping people with cue ball control (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=234071&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) or my 30-degree rule peace-sign technique (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/30_degree_rule_summary.pdf) useless to people trying to learn how to play and get better at the game? If you do, then we just have a different idea about what is and isn't useful. And that's OK ... but please don't try to pigeonhole me.

Now, many of my postings here, and the TP analyses on my website cover the detailed physics and math side of pool. I would agree with you that most of this information is of little interest to most pool players.

I have dedicated a significant part of my life to the world of pool, so I don't appreciate your limited characterization.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>However I'm finding that some of the terminology needs to be corrected as occasionally I hear something that is impossible in execution. For instance someone mentioned hitting the ball with less speed but more spin. I've been playing this game a long time and I have yet managed to accomplish that feat? Spin is siding, speed is pace. The latter defines the former.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure where you got the quote or if you are taking it out of context, but I can think of several examples of where you can effectively get more ball spin with less ball speed. A drag kick shot (with English) and a masse shot are two such examples.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
02-01-2007, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... However I'm finding that some of the terminology needs to be corrected as occasionally I hear something that is impossible in execution. For instance someone mentioned hitting the ball with less speed but more spin. I've been playing this game a long time and I have yet managed to accomplish that feat? Spin is siding, speed is pace. The latter defines the former. <hr /></blockquote>You're right in that once a tip offset is chosen, you're going to get a certain amount of spin to go along with the cueball's speed, exceptions being as Dr. Dave just described. But I think what Qtec was saying (sorry if I have it wrong Qtec), is that you do get less speed and more spin with greater tip offset from centerball.

If you visit Dr. Dave's website, or Bob Jewett's here (http://www.sfbilliards.com/), you'll find much in the way of practical information, along with discussions and/or references to physics. Don't confuse them with guys like me. I toss out equations now and then because this is my only outlet, but they tend (actually, assiduously I think) to restrict themselves to more directly usefull applications on this forum.

Jim

Qtec
02-01-2007, 08:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed.<hr /></blockquote>First, a prolegamanon to a metaphysik of stroke. And now, a dissertation on spin/speed and its importance in the analysis of path transformations??? <font color="blue">Eh...what? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I only speak english and Dutch Jal! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

What is going on here? Have you completely lost it? Has that dastardly Dr. Dave, through the many and nefarious means he's been known to employ, made a convert of you too? Have you noticed your runs falling off lately?

Whatever it is Qtec, keep up the good work. Don't fight it, it's too late for that. Just let those charts and equations and vectors flow unto thine being, like manna from the gardens of the gods. While your days of running balls are over, remember, it's much, much better to have a profound understanding of why you haven't got a chance in hell of making the next shot, than to mindlessly pot balls all day long. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Let your opponents do the grunge work. You sir, will now enjoy the endless delights of theoretical pool. Welcome to the club. A pocket protector has already been mailed out.

Jim &lt;--- giddy with anticipation of what you'll lay on us next /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think even people who can't run 3 friggin balls understood my explination- and all without 3 pages of formulae. [ sp? ] /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The shot described is a finesse stroke. You have to be a good player, ie technically proficient, to consistantly play such a shot. Its a shot that lesser players often miscue on.
Getting the maximum of spin with the minimum effort is the sign of a good stroke, IMO.

Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
02-01-2007, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed. <font color="blue"> The technicrat in me has to say: That it's actually not returning at the sharpest angle but only achieving that same angle at an earlier period during that shot. Yep, I knew that.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

DeeMan

...but you already knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec
<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

So now you are telling me, that I knew that you knew that I knew you already knew that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Q..........knew it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bradb
02-01-2007, 08:20 PM
I figured this would start a few fireworks. (Wife nagged me to go shopping so I shoulda waited before sending.)

First of all I'll answer you Dave. I was referring to the conversations you have with other technical people. I'm aware that you also instruct with your videos and books and they are very good, once again I was referring to the scientific discussions (which you yourself notated) not your instruction information! no insult intended.

Second of all breaks, masses etc, are power shots and don't fit into the category of normal potting. A drag- kick- shot would imply a good stroke is needed hence pace to begin with.
I'm sure that quote I referred to was correct but with confusing (to me) terminology. Pace translates into how much the QB siding will rotate when struck. If you decrease pace you get less rotation. Speed is a difficult term because you can't measure how fast the QB will go. Its determined by how you lengthen or shorten your stroke. Terms like "soft, normal, hard, or weight" best describe that. For instance I would tell my partner to play safe with "table weight" to the head rail. A delicate close shot is "soft stroke."

Hey Jal, I'm digging around trying to remember where I saw it in the archives, but I don't think that was implied. It sounded like less speed (shorter stroke) and more spin (siding) to achive position.

Off center cueing will effect the pace unless its struck very hard then the ball is no longer rolling but skimming across the surface.

I hope I cleared up a few thing (probably not). Brad

Qtec
02-01-2007, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Thank you for the support Dr. Dave. It's very much appreciated.<hr /></blockquote>
Jim,

You are very welcome. You have taken more than your fair share of abuse from the "knowledge haters" lately.

Thanks again for all of your help with my spin transfer stuff,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

"knowledge haters" Dave? I don't think so.

Qtec

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>First of all I'll answer you Dave. I was referring to the conversations you have with other technical people. I'm aware that you also instruct with your videos and books and they are very good, once again I was referring to the scientific discussions (which you yourself notated) not your instruction information! no insult intended.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it. I don't feel insulted anymore.

Cheers,
Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 08:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Thank you for the support Dr. Dave. It's very much appreciated.<hr /></blockquote>
Jim,

You are very welcome. You have taken more than your fair share of abuse from the "knowledge haters" lately.

Thanks again for all of your help with my spin transfer stuff,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

"knowledge haters" Dave? I don't think so.<hr /></blockquote>
OK ... you got me. Maybe that was a bit of an exaggeration ... I prefer to call it poetic license. I certainly don't consider you a "knowledge hater." On the contrary, I think you are very knowledgeable about pool. I sometimes just get the impression from some posters that they don't really value learning and understanding. I think knowledge can certainly help a person become a better pool player faster and more efficiently. They still need to put in the practice time and gain experience, but the knowledge can help them build intuition faster than a blind trial-and-error approach.

Regards,
Dave

Qtec
02-01-2007, 08:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Again, it was funny the 1st and even 2nd time, but not the 3rd, 4th, 5th ... time.

Where's the maturity, respect, and brotherly love?

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave, I guess I haven't been paying attention because I must have missed something.
Qtec ..........all for Brotherly love.

dr_dave
02-01-2007, 09:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Again, it was funny the 1st and even 2nd time, but not the 3rd, 4th, 5th ... time.

Where's the maturity, respect, and brotherly love?<hr /></blockquote>
Dave, I guess I haven't been paying attention because I must have missed something.
Qtec ..........all for Brotherly love.<hr /></blockquote>
I think Jal's reply to Chopstick (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=243513&amp;page =&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) summarizes what you missed fairly well.

Cheers,
Dave ... happy to see the brotherly love starting to spread.

Qtec
02-01-2007, 09:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think knowledge can certainly help a person become a better pool player faster and more efficiently.<hr /></blockquote>
Sure Dave, I don't disagree that it can, but what info is useful and when is it beneficial rather than detrimental to the player?
[ QUOTE ]
They still need to put in the practice time and gain experience, but the knowledge can help them build intuition faster than a blind trial-and-error approach <hr /></blockquote>

Notice Dave you say 'blind', meaning no method. Practice should always be done with a specific purpose and there is just no way to get round the hours of repetative practice, ie playing the same shot over and over, that all good players have to do. JMO of course. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Playing the game is all trial and error but it doesn't have to be blind.
Qtec

whipy
02-02-2007, 02:42 AM
...you guys sure know how to hijack a thread don't you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

pooltchr
02-02-2007, 06:06 AM
Q. You know very well that people learn in different ways. Some of my students learn more quickly when I provide them with technical information as to why something happens. Others are just the opposite. They don't care about the physics. They just want to know how to do something. Dave gives me a lot of information that I may not use in my own game, and may not even use in my normal teaching. But when I get a student who needs this kind of information, it's nice to have it to share with them. I will be the first to admit that when he (and others) start with all the formulas, I usually tune it out, but the principles are a valuable tool for both learning and teaching.

I don't think anyone pulls out a calculator before shooting a shot, but if they understand the principles of basic physics, it can be beneficial in determining how to approach a situation at the table. I like getting as much information as possible, then applying that which is applicable in any given situation. There is a place for all types of knowledge if you want to excel at this game.
Steve

Fran Crimi
02-02-2007, 07:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I figured this would start a few fireworks. (Wife nagged me to go shopping so I shoulda waited before sending.)

First of all I'll answer you Dave. I was referring to the conversations you have with other technical people. I'm aware that you also instruct with your videos and books and they are very good, once again I was referring to the scientific discussions (which you yourself notated) not your instruction information! no insult intended.

Second of all breaks, masses etc, are power shots and don't fit into the category of normal potting. A drag- kick- shot would imply a good stroke is needed hence pace to begin with.
I'm sure that quote I referred to was correct but with confusing (to me) terminology. Pace translates into how much the QB siding will rotate when struck. If you decrease pace you get less rotation. Speed is a difficult term because you can't measure how fast the QB will go. Its determined by how you lengthen or shorten your stroke. Terms like "soft, normal, hard, or weight" best describe that. For instance I would tell my partner to play safe with "table weight" to the head rail. A delicate close shot is "soft stroke."

Hey Jal, I'm digging around trying to remember where I saw it in the archives, but I don't think that was implied. It sounded like less speed (shorter stroke) and more spin (siding) to achive position.

Off center cueing will effect the pace unless its struck very hard then the ball is no longer rolling but skimming across the surface.

I hope I cleared up a few thing (probably not). Brad <hr /></blockquote>


Brad, could this exchange be what you were thinking of?

Fran Crimi
Pooh-Bah


Reged: 08/11/02
Posts: 2189
Loc: NYC
Re: Where to hit CB for position [re: bradb]
01/28/07 10:04 PM (152.163.101.8) Edit Reply Quote



Right, plus with pool you have to consider ball pocketing speed. I know that snooker players aren't too keen about potting shots along the rail, but with pool, as you know, they're very makeable. But even though they're makeable, stroke speed adjustments are often necessary if one doesn't want the object ball to pop out of the pocket. That often translates into using more spin and less force if you need to move the cue ball a substantial distance for position play. Case in point: Efren Reyes. He's the best there is at that precise thing.

Fran

Post Extras:
bradb
journeyman


Reged: 01/07/07
Posts: 89
Loc: Abbotsford BC Cananda
Re: Where to hit CB for position [re: Fran Crimi]
01/29/07 01:51 PM (70.69.251.251) Edit Reply Quote



Yes thats another occassion where you might want to adjust pace.
But I wonder if thats just a style that Efren prefers. If you hit the OB clean it goes with your normal pace. You can get back up the table with exactly the same pace as staying right there. So that means a constant stroke will work just as well. My case in point is Steve Davis (no bias there of course!) Granted I would put my money on Efren in a heads up match.

Deeman3
02-02-2007, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Spin/Speed ratio! The harder you hit a ball the further it will move along the 90 degree line before the spin kicks in. To get the QB to come back at the sharpest angle it has to hit the OB with Max spin at low speed. <font color="blue"> The technicrat in me has to say: That it's actually not returning at the sharpest angle but only achieving that same angle at an earlier period during that shot. Yep, I knew that.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

DeeMan

...but you already knew that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Qtec
<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

So now you are telling me, that I knew that you knew that I knew you already knew that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Q..........knew it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="purple"> Q, I knew I spent all those years on that short bus for some reason. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

DeeMan

bradb
02-02-2007, 09:20 AM
No, I knew what you meant there by using the term force. I would have said siding instead of spin. Amount of spin to me means rotation speed which can only be increased by more force. But you can increase siding (where you strike the cue). I know I'm playing with semantics but its important in communication. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dr_dave
02-02-2007, 09:35 AM
Steve,

Very well stated!!!

Check out knowledge = intuition validation &amp; confidence (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=243565&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=) and the other links under "mental aspects" in the threads summary section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) for other perspectives on the same issue.

Catch you later,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Q. You know very well that people learn in different ways. Some of my students learn more quickly when I provide them with technical information as to why something happens. Others are just the opposite. They don't care about the physics. They just want to know how to do something. Dave gives me a lot of information that I may not use in my own game, and may not even use in my normal teaching. But when I get a student who needs this kind of information, it's nice to have it to share with them. I will be the first to admit that when he (and others) start with all the formulas, I usually tune it out, but the principles are a valuable tool for both learning and teaching.

I don't think anyone pulls out a calculator before shooting a shot, but if they understand the principles of basic physics, it can be beneficial in determining how to approach a situation at the table. I like getting as much information as possible, then applying that which is applicable in any given situation. There is a place for all types of knowledge if you want to excel at this game.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
02-02-2007, 09:38 AM
Any shot with backspin is sliding or in the air.
Q

dr_dave
02-02-2007, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>They still need to put in the practice time and gain experience, but the knowledge can help them build intuition faster than a blind trial-and-error approach<hr /></blockquote>Notice Dave you say 'blind', meaning no method. Practice should always be done with a specific purpose and there is just no way to get round the hours of repetative practice, ie playing the same shot over and over, that all good players have to do. JMO of course. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Playing the game is all trial and error but it doesn't have to be blind.<hr /></blockquote>
Good point. If somebody is practicing with a clear objective, and they have a method (and the knowledge) to correctly interpret (and not misinterprept) what they see, then they will build sound intuition (and more knowledge) quickly.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
02-02-2007, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> No, I knew what you meant there by using the term force. I would have said siding instead of spin. Amount of spin to me means rotation speed which can only be increased by more force. But you can increase siding (where you strike the cue). I know I'm playing with semantics but its important in communication. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

No, actually I did mean spin, Brad. That includes top and bottom. I would have said side if I meant only side. The farther out on the ball you strike, the less force is applied.

Fran

Qtec
02-02-2007, 10:20 AM
Wow. Fran , do you remember EVERY post you have ever written? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec

bradb
02-02-2007, 11:15 AM
I assumed you meant siding because we were discussing potting a ball on the rail and achieving position (of course it would be a combination of top/bottom, left/right, whatever.) You can control a QB off a rail with a short stroke and sharp siding as opposed to powering it off which as you inferred to lessen missing the shot. My playing partner strokes that way. But what I'm referring to is that length of stroke determines QB rotation. i.e. RPMs.

wolfdancer
02-02-2007, 11:40 AM
You bring up some excellent points...with some good advice.
If the attempt to hold the elbow up, restricts your stroke length....why do it? It really doesn't matter if the elbow drops after contact.
And none other than "Fast" Larry, wrote that a shorter bridge length encourages a longer follow through. That advice worked
for me to increase my draw distance.
And from the world of golf instruction....they teach you to get rid of the "hit" impulse, and swing through the ball. Sounds like that might work for playing pool???
As for a power stroke...i.e., the break shot....Colin's theory has added power to my break....even though I occasionally get a "flier" (with good hang time)
you have to forget about the pendulum stroke,and get a few more body parts involved, using his ideas.....
I made 5 on the break the other day....and scratched...it's a new "world" record for me....commonplace, I'm sure for others....but I always had a weak break...

bradb
02-02-2007, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Any shot with backspin is sliding or in the air.

Gotta question that...You can medium stroke a stun back and its the rotation that does it, not bouncing or force especially on napped cloth. When the spin grabs it takes off and then its happy motoring! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jal
02-02-2007, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... Amount of spin to me means rotation speed which can only be increased by more force. ... <hr /></blockquote> Brad, increasing tip offset, while keeping your cue speed the same, does increase the spin rate of the cueball in absolute terms, not just relative to its speed. It does this even though, as Fran said, less force is applied to the cueball during impact.

Jim

bradb
02-02-2007, 06:54 PM
You got me Jal, I put "only" in there by mistake. To much editing not enough proofing.
What I was trying to say is here we never say apply more spin, thats to generic, its "how" would you apply more spin by denoting either stroke length, (hard, normal soft) or siding.

bradb
02-02-2007, 07:22 PM
Fran, I should clarify my understanding of terminology and see if we agree.

Top Spin is slightly above center to extreme top.
Stun is dead center.
Stun Back is slightly below center to exteme bottom
Siding is a combination of top/bottom left/right
Spin is amount of rotation (either by stroke length, or siding.)
Stroke is soft, normal, or hard (which refers to length.)
Weight is how far to roll OB. (which tells the shooter how much stroke to use.)

Fran Crimi
02-02-2007, 07:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Wow. Fran , do you remember EVERY post you have ever written? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Qtec
<hr /></blockquote>

Oh, goodness no! This exchange with Brad took place recently so it was still fresh in my mind.

Fran

jkwylde78
02-03-2007, 03:32 PM
Actually, the appropriate way to state that is - only the lower arm and slight wrist action are to move***UP TO THE CONTACT POINT ON THE CUEBALL*** And, it is still debated. Personally, I allow my shoulder a LITTLE movement a split second after contact, which FEELS natural. Bro, its all about the comfort zone....