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Bassn7
02-04-2007, 10:07 PM
For the best cue ball controlled, smashed open break, where should your eyes be focused last, on the cue ball or the contact point like a normal shot?

Ace
02-04-2007, 10:32 PM
I prefer keeping my eyes on the contact point of the rack during the break. The break is a very critical shot!

Snapshot9
02-05-2007, 09:20 AM
Well, if you are hitting the head ball straight on, I would say aim, and then look back at the cue ball last, like Ralf Souquet does. I switched over to Ralf's method, and breaking is more consistent if you can see and control where you are hitting the cue ball.

dr_dave
02-05-2007, 09:44 AM
You should do whatever works best for you, but I think the general "best practices" consensus is to focus on the cue ball last. See item 4 in my stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> For the best cue ball controlled, smashed open break, where should your eyes be focused last, on the cue ball or the contact point like a normal shot? <hr /></blockquote>

ceebee
02-05-2007, 10:06 AM
I would suggest the player focus on the aiming point, on the selected ball in the rack, because that is the goal. Even the smallest error in focusing on the Cue Ball, will manifest itself proportionately in missing the desired result. I feel the stroke, in the game of Pool &amp; Billiards, is all about hand-eye coordination.

The bridge is supposed to be a non variable, because it does not move. The Cue Ball is a non-variable too, because it is a single element, that only does what you cause it to do, in your stroke. The variables are in the offline / offangle movement of the stroking arm (grip) &amp; body movement.

That is why practicing the Break Shot shot is so important for the higher level players. A regular shot only employs a few muscle groups in the shooting arm &amp; hand. The Break Shot uses just about all of body's muscle groups (to shoot hard &amp; maintain balance during delivery).

Good Luck...

bradb
02-05-2007, 11:30 AM
I agree with ceebee. I have always looked at the break last! its the same thing as looking at the OB last.

Scott Lee
02-06-2007, 07:25 PM
In poolschool, we teach that in the few situations where the CB is more important (jumpshots, masse', kicks, and the break), the eyes should be focused on the CB at contact. Many pros, for years, have recommended looking at the CB on the break shot.

Scott Lee

bradb
02-06-2007, 08:22 PM
I can see it on every shot mentioned but the break! Its absolutely critical that you hit the 1 ball accurately, especially with the power behind the shot on the break.
Once your stroke is locked in you should be able execute it with your eyes closed. I focus intensely on the OB on the draw back. As I follow through I point the cue straight at the aiming point on the OB for maximum control.
Maybe its best to train new players that way, but I feel that for advanced play this has to be the correct procedure /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Stretch
02-06-2007, 08:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I can see it on every shot mentioned but the break! Its absolutely critical that you hit the 1 ball accurately, especially with the power behind the shot on the break.
Once your stroke is locked in you should be able execute it with your eyes closed. I focus intensely on the OB on the draw back. As I follow through I point the cue straight at the aiming point on the OB for maximum control.
Maybe its best to train new players that way, but I feel that for advanced play this has to be the correct procedure /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think either way will do. There's no right or wrong here as long as you can get the desired results. What's a cb last guy going to say to a ob last guy when he's getting dead nose hits parking the cue ball in the middle and makeing one or two balls. NOTHING. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

bradb
02-06-2007, 10:15 PM
I have to correct myself on my last post, on draw back I look at the QB when the forward motion starts I look at the OB.
I don't know, I guess you could look at the Qb all the way but to me its like firing a rifle without looking past the sight.

Sid_Vicious
02-06-2007, 10:44 PM
9Ball break, CB first...sid

sygfrid
02-06-2007, 11:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> In poolschool, we teach that in the few situations where the CB is more important (jumpshots, masse', kicks, and the break), the eyes should be focused on the CB at contact. Many pros, for years, have recommended looking at the CB on the break shot.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I believe that the idea behind here is that You have already established the line between the CB &amp; the OB. Since your bridge is FIXED to the line between the CB &amp; OB, then your cue will surely travel the same line, assuming you have a pendulum/straight swing. If you fix your eyes at the CB on your last stroke, so you're just making sure that you are hitting the CB at the desired spot (e.g. slightly below center for stun).

I remember my instructor told me before, "If your BRIDGE is aimed like a rifle to your target, you can execute the shot correctly even if your eyes are closed (provided that you have a pendulum swing)". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TennesseeJoe
02-07-2007, 09:10 AM
Soft controlled break---Object ball
Maximum speed break---Cue ball

bradb
02-07-2007, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sygfrid:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> In poolschool, we teach that in the few situations where the CB is more important (jumpshots, masse', kicks, and the break), the eyes should be focused on the CB at contact. Many pros, for years, have recommended looking at the CB on the break shot.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

I believe that the idea behind here is that You have already established the line between the CB &amp; the OB. Since your bridge is FIXED to the line between the CB &amp; OB, then your cue will surely travel the same line, assuming you have a pendulum/straight swing. If you fix your eyes at the CB on your last stroke, so you're just making sure that you are hitting the CB at the desired spot (e.g. slightly below center for stun).

I remember my instructor told me before, "If your BRIDGE is aimed like a rifle to your target, you can execute the shot correctly even if your eyes are closed (provided that you have a pendulum swing)". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The same argument can be made for just the opposite. If you are even slightly off line on OB it could be a scratch! Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Fran Crimi
02-07-2007, 10:01 AM
I've tried looking at the CB last on the break and I can see how some may prefer it, but it's not for me. I prefer to look at the rack, and I have a pretty powerful break. However, I do look at the CB last during masse and jump shots.

Fran

Bassn7
02-07-2007, 02:59 PM
What about Archer, Reyes, Allison or Corr? Any insight?

SPetty
02-07-2007, 04:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sygfrid:</font><hr> I remember my instructor told me before, "If your BRIDGE is aimed like a rifle to your target, you can execute the shot correctly even if your eyes are closed (provided that you have a pendulum swing)". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>How do you "aim" a bridge??!? Sorry - I'm not quite sure what you mean...

Qtec
02-07-2007, 07:39 PM
Imagine you have a straight shot. In order to shoot a straight shot, with no E, your bridge has to be on the line of the shot. It makes sense to me that when you get down on the shot, the first thing you do is get the bridge on line.
Watch the top players, they slide the bridge into place and lock it.
The bridge is largely ignored but its of absolute supreme importance if you want to at least sometimes feel that you are in control of the balls- because thats whats its all about.
If aiming is lining up two points, then yes, in a sense, you do ' aim' with your bridge.
Qtec............JMO /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
02-08-2007, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> What about Archer, Reyes, Allison or Corr? Any insight? <hr /></blockquote>

No, I'm afraid not. I haven't asked any of them and it's hard to tell just by watching them. I'd want to hear it directly from them as to what they're looking at last. I wouldn't trust someone else's word on that because looks can be deceiving.

Fran

SPetty
02-08-2007, 10:57 AM
Oh, O.K., now I get it. Thanks for the description, Q.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Imagine you have a straight shot. In order to shoot a straight shot, with no E, your bridge has to be on the line of the shot. It makes sense to me that when you get down on the shot, the first thing you do is get the bridge on line.
Watch the top players, they slide the bridge into place and lock it.
The bridge is largely ignored but its of absolute supreme importance if you want to at least sometimes feel that you are in control of the balls- because thats whats its all about.
If aiming is lining up two points, then yes, in a sense, you do ' aim' with your bridge.
Qtec............JMO /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
02-08-2007, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure you do get it but it would take too long to try and explain myself.
Put it this way, the line of the shot goes thru QB and OB. The line just between the 2 balls is too inaccurate. Seeing that line and getting your bridge on it are the main object.
Once the bridge is on line all you have to do is shoot to the target- you can't miss! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

sygfrid
02-08-2007, 09:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I'm not sure you do get it but it would take too long to try and explain myself.
Put it this way, the line of the shot goes thru QB and OB. The line just between the 2 balls is too inaccurate. Seeing that line and getting your bridge on it are the main object.
Once the bridge is on line all you have to do is shoot to the target- you can't miss! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly!

The bridge is, as you said, very much neglected. It is the most important factor in accurate aiming because it keeps your cue "in place" or "in line" with your target. If you "aim" your bridge at the center of the ball, you will surely hit the center of the ball provided that you execute a straight swing. If you want to follow/draw, all you have to do is increase/decrease the height of the bridge, and your bridge is still at the center line of the ball. This way also, you are maintaining the levelness of your cue.

Very good example of aiming with the bridge are the snooker players. They use their bridges like "aiming sights" of the rifle. Notice how they often use the open bridge for most of their shots.


TRY THESE 2 OPTIONS OF AIMING/ALIGNING USING THE BRIDGE:

OPTION I
Step 1: Align your cue with the line between the CB &amp; OB &amp; decide whether to hit it follow, draw, dead center, or stun.

Step 2. Slide/clamp (open/close bridge) your bridge onto the cue, adjust the height depending on your selected shot, and then keep it firm &amp; steady on the table

Step 3. Go down readying for the shot, adjusting your body [EXCEPT YOUR BRIDGE W/C SHOULD REMAIN STEADY] to a comfortable stance that will enable you to have a pendulum swing.

Step4. Keep your eye on the ball, and check the straightness of your swing on your warm up strokes. If your stroke is not straight, repeat STEP 3. If it is, hen execute the shot when you are ready.

[b]OPTION 2
Step 1. Align your bridge [behind the center of the cb] with the line between the CB &amp; OB, &amp; decide what kind of shot to make

Step 2. Put the cue in/on your bridge, adjust the height of the bridge

DO STEPS 3-4

It would be better if you can already determine how high or low you will hit the cb at STEP 1 so that you will no longer have to adjust your hand/bridge for STEP 2, and avoid misaligning the target.

Hope this helps /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

neuromancers
02-08-2007, 11:16 PM
I agree with Snapshot9 on this!

SPetty
02-09-2007, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I'm not sure you do get it <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif But I said I got it, then you said the same thing again, so I still get it. Don't know why you're not sure... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Scott Lee
02-11-2007, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> What about Archer, Reyes, Allison or Corr? Any insight? <hr /></blockquote>

No, I'm afraid not. I haven't asked any of them and it's hard to tell just by watching them. I'd want to hear it directly from them as to what they're looking at last. I wouldn't trust someone else's word on that because looks can be deceiving.

Fran<hr /></blockquote>

Fran...That last statement is sure the truth. Most people (pros included) don't really know how their eyes move, or where their eyes are focused at impact. In poolschool we have specific video exercises dedicated to showing eye focus, both in timing and placement. I've had many students who insisted that they didn't 'ping ping' their eyes, but video showed differently. You can't argue with a camera! I just had one student (a former professional golf instructor), who recently took a lesson strictly on eye pattern movement. After practicing the new exercises for only a couple of weeks, he took his game to the DCC this year, and did quite well. He came up to me in Louisville, and could not believe the difference it had made in his game...even in a short period.

Scott Lee

bradb
02-12-2007, 04:40 PM
I must admit I thought I was sure where I looked when asked, but upon actual shot observation I found myself looking at the OB only with the follow through of the cue right at it. The stroke action had already started and it did'nt matter where I looked, now I was just a spectator.

rangoonkid
02-12-2007, 05:04 PM

bradb
02-12-2007, 05:27 PM
That was Fran that asked, but I'm a firm believer in a last second look at the OB. Golf and pool are two different animals, you have a whole field to look at in a golf swing, in pool you have a tiny fraction of an OB.

Fran Crimi
02-12-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm confused. What was it that I asked?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

bradb
02-12-2007, 05:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>
Eyes on CB at impact, trust your stroke. Hoppe played this way, and so does #2 ranked Kaiser, so you wanted some pros who do this, there's two. <hr /></blockquote>

That was Fran who wanted some pros who stated directly they looked at the QB last (as observation can be deceiving.) I thought you meant to reply to her instead of me. But no matter, I agree with her anyway.

Stretch
02-12-2007, 07:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Go to a golf course, hit your driver, and don't look at the back of the ball where you want to hit it, like all golfers do, look down the fairway like all pool players do, and see how many fairways you hit.

Eyes on CB at impact, trust your stroke. Hoppe played this way, and so does #2 ranked Kaiser, so you wanted some pros who do this, there's two. <hr /></blockquote>

Ah your both wrong, i just close my eyes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

bradb
02-12-2007, 07:17 PM
Saw Tiger hit one two feet from the hole in almost pitch dark, who needs to look at all? /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
02-12-2007, 07:29 PM
Fran, see my reply to Rangoonkid, it explains my statement. Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fran Crimi
02-12-2007, 07:35 PM
Oh, okay. I get it now. Thanks for the clarification. I thought I missed something there for a minute.

Fran

rangoonkid
02-12-2007, 09:36 PM

Stretch
02-12-2007, 10:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> In golf, on the break in pool, I look at both, several times, my eyes go from one to the other, and when I am set, I trust my stroke and I am only seeing the back of the golf ball or the back of the cue ball at impact. You do not have to look down the fairway and you do not have to look at the one ball to hit it.
It you look at the one ball you will never hit the right spot on the cue ball, it can not be done. <hr /></blockquote>

Excuse me? I'm sure you meant can not be done by YOU. St.

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 09:21 AM

Stretch
02-13-2007, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> No, you read it correctly, I can't do it and my handicap is scratch, you can't do it, Tiger can't do it. Just go see, don't look at the golf ball, just look down the fairway where you want it to go but yell four loud. You will kill every gofer on the course after 18 is over. Buy 2 dozen balls before you tee off.

This is why you go into pool halls and cue balls are flying all over the joint. The same reason, they are looking at the one ball and missing the center of the cue ball badly. If you don't look at it, you can not hit it? <hr /></blockquote>

Ok, i'll let tiger woods stand on the table and use his putter on every shot looking at the cb last, and i'll get behind my cue ball, everything lined up, lock in my stroke and look at ob last and i bet i win.

Sure you can go into Pool halls and see the recreational Duffers banging balls around. The same ones play golf and keep cranking thier balls half a mile into the woods. Wuts your point? St.

hoodsiejr
02-13-2007, 09:59 AM
Stretch, You're right nobody does that in golf. It can be done, just not very effectively. I used to do some tricks shots on the golf course and that always got their attention but I wouldn't try looking up it when counted. It is interesting though, I mostly play 3 cushion billiards and I believe I focus on the object ball last but that may be more harm than good. Never thought of it this way but you I do believe your right in that your eyes should be focused on contact versus path.

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 12:00 PM

Ace
02-13-2007, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ace:</font><hr> I prefer keeping my eyes on the contact point of the rack during the break. The break is a very critical shot! <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> </font color> After further thought, I am changing my previous post. I do look at the cb last, I think. I believe breaking, for me is kind of an instinctive process. I might even focus somewhere between the cb and the ob. lol

Brian in VA
02-14-2007, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Find me a single golfer who can break 80 that does not look at the back of the golf ball at impact. That is not even open for debate and the point was it has a parallel to pool.

I only look at the CB at impact on the break, off the rail when the CB is frozen to it and when bridging over a ball. The majority of my normal shots my eyes go up and down twice and then focus on the OB point I am aiming at. When I have to use extreme English, I then look at the cue ball. My eyes still to up and down, but do not stop on the OB, after seeing the shot and having it aimed, I lock my eyes on the CB and trust my stroke. I train this by shooting long shots with my eyes closed.

An example would be shooting the cue ball table length, pot a duck and draw back up table table length. I have to hit very low on the cue ball and to avoid jumping it I have to see my point of aim and contact. I am saying, you can do both, blend them into your game guys.
Hoppe on every shot looked at the CB and he was the greatest cueist of all time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I can name 2. Annika Sorenstam and David Duval. Slow motion and stills have shown their eyes are not on the ball at impact. Frankly, it's a wonder to me they can hit it at all. For the record, I look at the cue ball but I just wanted to answer your dare.

Brian in VA

rangoonkid
02-14-2007, 09:04 AM

Brian in VA
02-14-2007, 11:40 AM
Actually, in last week's Pebble Beach National Pro Am Mr. Duval finished in the top 25. If I can get he and your wife out there, I'll take all that action. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif And he's been not looking at the ball at impact since he was first learning to play the game. His father, a golf pro, decided not to change him because he was making excellent contact. You failed to mention Annika. I guess she can beat your wife.

You also missed my comment that I'm on your side. I watch the CB on the break, and on the rail and jacked up. I also feel a more solid hit provides a bigger break and I get a more solid hit with that. I think it's the proper way to teach the break. Just as I think that watching the back of the golf ball is the proper way to teach the golf swing.

Sigh. I only wish you listened as well as you spew. Your talking skills gives your listening skills the 7 and pounds it. Your credibility would soar and other folks might actually get to paying attention to what you say. I'm sure you'll agree, a mind is like a parachute; it only works when it's open.

Have an outstanding day!
Brian in VA

ceebee
02-15-2007, 12:42 AM
You folks are welcome to fire your Break Shot, the way you like to.

One way we might try out some resolve to this "question of critical skill", is this.

After you have dialed into the "Shot Line", of your Break Shot, have someone block your view of the rack (maybe lower some poster board into your view of the rack) &amp; then you "fire away", to see how well you do.

If a player can aim the Cue Ball, down the Shot Line, &amp; use a correlating point on the Cue Ball, as a reference point, to shoot the shot correctly, &amp; then concentrate on the precise Cue Ball strike, to make the shot, I'll be amazed.

Good Luck...

Scott Lee
02-15-2007, 12:29 PM
Charley...That could certainly be done, under the right conditions...for example: hanging a sheet on a wire, so that the CB would easily go underneath the sheet. Then, once the eye pattern routine is finished, and the final SPF is ready to be executed, you could certainly block the view of the rack, and look at the CB, with a very accurate result (provided you already have an accurate, repeatable stroke). Hal Houle does this when teaching several of his aiming systems.

Scott Lee

ceebee
02-16-2007, 08:16 AM
I'm sure there are several players who are able to do that. It is certainly a test for one's ability.

There are also several players that couldn't manage under those conditions.

A "repeatable stroke" is the magic ingredient in every shot.

I spoke with Hall, the other evening, very nice chap. If I go to Valley Forge, I'll get to spend some time with him.