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alameda5
02-09-2007, 09:50 PM
Out of these two classic films, which do you prefer?

GKH
02-09-2007, 10:48 PM
"The Hustler" is the only classic of these two, in my opinion, anyway.

- Greg

ceebee
02-10-2007, 12:07 AM
I'm 64 years old, soon to be 65.

I liked the Hustler when it came out & do enjoy watching it to this day. But, when "The COLOR of Money " came on the screen, I see it as a movie of today.

I also see a more professional side of Pool, where the great players give lessons & play in high dollar tournaments.... maybe that is only a dream of mine.

I have never envied any man that awoke each morning thinking of a SCORE, something or someone to overcome to further his life or lifestyle.

I would like to see the Professional Pool Player enjoy his life being an Instructor & entertainer like the Golf Pros.

FatsRedux
02-10-2007, 01:33 AM
The Hustler. It gives an insight into a by-gone era.

When I watch it I wax nostalgic, remembering guys like Lassiter, Fats, Jersey Red, Tugboat Whaley, Daddy Warbucks and others. It makes me wish I had a time machine, so I could go back dressed in a sharkskin suit with a skinny tie, my hair slicked back with 3 Roses Brilliantine, a hat and shiny shoes, a nice cue, and a wad of cash.

Fats

whipy
02-10-2007, 01:36 AM
I think CoM is a very boring movie. I'd pick The Hustler over it every day.

pooltchr
02-10-2007, 05:39 AM
There is no comparison. The Hustler was nominated for multiple Academy Awards, and probably would have won a bunch had it not been released the same year as West Side Story. TCOM was, IMO, just another pool movie. Neuman, however, was fantastic in both movies.
Steve

Deeman3
02-10-2007, 07:55 AM
I agree with all of you. The Hustler was a story, a story of life, tragedy and character portrayed by larger than life characters with the smell of the old pool world. The coloer of money was an entertaining movie made to appeal to popular audience sparkle. You watch the Color of Money, you feel the Hustler.

DeeMan

reggie182
02-10-2007, 10:47 AM
Definitely "The Huster". I saw TCOM in 1987 when I was sixteen years old, and it really excited me about the game, inspiring me to practice endless hours at the table. However, when I pop the movie in the DVD player twenty years later, it appears dated, and the ending of the movie ("Hey, I'm back") still manages to disappoint me. I remember reading Walter Tevis' book "TCOM" not too long after seeing the movie, and the story was vastly different than the one in the movie (Minnesota Fats was present - there was no "Vincent" character), and was a great deal better than the movie storyline.

The Hustler, on the other hand, ironically having been made about twenty five years before TCOM, still looks as fresh as the first time I saw it, and despite countless viewings, I could put the DVD in right now and still find it compelling and entertaining. It's a great movie about pool, but it's also a great movie period.

bradb
02-10-2007, 11:41 AM
The Hustler is my pick for greatest movie ever. I first saw it when I was 18 and it made an impression on me I can't explain. I knew nothing about pool then, it was the intenseness of the characters I think that got me.
Its true that TCOM is about a different time but I found it a disappoinment. Tom Cruise is a pretty boy, not the strong personnae of Fast Eddie. I can think of many great actors for that part. Also having Fast Eddie become a cynical embodiment of the George C Scott role was all wrong for me. Eddie had triumphed over deceit and grew as a person gaining the respect of Fats. A truer but still exciting story would have worked. The gritty emotional power of the first was gone.

I almost wish that movie could be erased and done again, however I know it gave modern billiards a shot in the arm.

slim
02-10-2007, 05:09 PM
Ditto, Ditto, plus George C Scott won and Academy Award in this movie, know comparison, ones entertainment, the others real.

bradb
02-10-2007, 05:56 PM
Yes, so many incredible actors in that first movie. They could have done it again, they had Neuman and he's still got it.

Sid_Vicious
02-11-2007, 10:42 AM
Hustler, but COM ranks first above all the rest of the pool movies. Actually COM many times has more repeat view appeal for me even with Hustler. COM has the flair, color of course and a fast moving skit, all added up...it has it's own special appeal. The scene with Eddie and the "lab project", booze and showing his azz was embarassingly familiar.

Hustler was and always will be, the benchmark for all pool movies, unless somebody with bucks really does a stellar movie to end all. I hit the lottery and maybe that'll happen. One thing's for sure if that happens...9BG will be in it on a stretch shot over a 9-footer wearing that leather mini she was banned from the airplane with. That'll be my opening scene hook.


/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Coming(she wishes) soon to a theater near you, "Nineball Girl" . Done right, this might sell. Deeman will do the graphics, Spiderman the video editing, Chopstick the director and Eg8r can maintain the coffee and doughnut bar for the stars, arranged far over on the left /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif of the action. Oh yea, Gayle will be doing info-mercials about an on-going impeachment while SPetty and I work on a bottle of Jose Quervo during re-writes.

Lemme know if you have inputs for role castings. The Quervo job is off limits since I'm paying for this damn thing..sid "Nineball Girl"

Scott Lee
02-11-2007, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Oh yea, Gayle will be doing info-mercials about an on-going impeachment while SPetty and I work on a bottle of Jose Quervo during re-writes.

Lemme know if you have inputs for role castings. The Quervo job is off limits since I'm paying for this damn thing..sid <hr /></blockquote>

sid...You've been hitting the bottle too much already. No such thing as Jose Quervo. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif There IS, on the other hand, some rotgut called Jose Cuervo. No comparison to real tequila, imo.

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
02-11-2007, 10:51 AM
Once you get to the worm, you're allowed to spell any ol' way you wanna, ~burp~ Maybe the sound title should be, "As The Wirm Tirns" done in karoke by non other than Spiderman, accompanied by RandyG, done in blues brothers glasses...sid

Fran Crimi
02-11-2007, 11:06 AM
Both films have merit---The Hustler, obviously due to the acting and writing, however, I enjoy seeing real live pool pros in the COM, something that you don't see in the Hustler.

Fran

Sid_Vicious
02-11-2007, 11:12 AM
Good point. There are background celebs in Hustler, some of whom I have not recognized. COM definitely had the crowd...sid

bradb
02-11-2007, 11:21 AM
I hear you guys. TCOM is today. The Hustler is another time.

But its everything for us vets because it was filmed during those actual times. For younger players to get a sense of what it was like, that movie is all there is. The epitome is where Fast Eddie enters Fats pool hall for the first time. He walks in awe past the tables and the autographed pix on the wall. He runs his hand gently across the felt and says to his partner... "this is it, this is big time pool! I've played all my life just for this moment." To me that captured the special magic of those old pool halls. Fats was the embodiment of Lassiter, Misconni, who wore 3 piece suits and talked the big game. It was class and when the money was down they uncovered the special table where only the best were allowed to play. If a player lost his stake, he honored his opponent. (Fats) ..."you're the best Fast Eddie, I can't beat you."
PS, I'm an art director I want a shot working with Deeman on the set design!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sid_Vicious
02-11-2007, 11:42 AM
"PS, I'm an art director I want a shot working with Deeman on the set design!!!"

What color do you want your stretch to be for the red carpet routine /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif sid

bradb
02-11-2007, 12:00 PM
Been known to take the yellow ball in snooker now and then... get accused of that being my family colors /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

WoodMonkey
02-11-2007, 04:18 PM
The Hustler is a lot more than just a pool movie. It's a great movie in a classic tradition. It tells its story without having to have a beautiful babe, a lot of violence, or black and white characters. Today's movies are so often full of cheap images that quickly tell us who the good guy and bad guy are, with a lot of cheap over-the-top emotional music to tell us how to feel.

The Hustler is understated, about real people with big problems, who have one place where they can put it all aside and be a somebody: the pool hall. It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest films ever made.

Wood Monkey

SPetty
02-11-2007, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> ...done in karoke by non other than Spiderman, accompanied by RandyG, done in blues brothers glasses...sid <hr /></blockquote>classic. I'd pay to see them doing the trademark Soul Man... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

onepocketchump
02-12-2007, 12:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> There is no comparison. The Hustler was nominated for multiple Academy Awards, and probably would have won a bunch had it not been released the same year as West Side Story. TCOM was, IMO, just another pool movie. Neuman, however, was fantastic in both movies.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I usually don't disagree with Steve but this is one time. To me both of these movies are classics. Both of them have so much depth that I pick up on something else each time I watch them. And I just watched both again two weeks ago.

The Color of Money wasn't just another pool movie, not in the least. It is a movie about character and lack of it. It a movie about values and morals.

It is a movie about rediscovering what is important and rekindling a love affair with the game. Each scene has so much depth to it.

It is a boring movie to those who think it's just about pool, which is probably most people who watch it, pool players included. Just another pool movie would have had some cheesy showdown. What did the Color of Money do? It had Fast Eddie asking for forgiveness to allow everyone to get on with life. Asking to play it out for real. Not some cheesy hustle or "life in the balance" game.

Anyway, just my opinon. For a real experience get a copy of the Hustler and read it. As well the Queen's Gambit by Tevis.

whizman
02-12-2007, 08:11 AM
oh please...it's like day and night....The Hustler was a great movie and as a pool player myself i found if much more believable..in the COM they were playing position to bank shots, whipping cues around like it was sword, and just plain going way over the top. i know it was a different era but really, who does that stuff....not even Earl...lol

pooltchr
02-12-2007, 09:13 AM
John,
I don't disagree with you regarding the content in COM. Yes, it's a good story line, and there is a lot to enjoy in the movie. But the performance of Neuman, Gleason, George C Scott an the rest was truely outstanding in the Hustler, hence, all the Academy Award nominations. TCOM was a good movie, and I still watch it whenever it's on. I guess I see the difference being that while both are classic pool movies, the Hustler is a classic movie in and of it's own.
(I'm still waiting for the next installment. You can't finish a movie with the main character saying "I'm back!" without bringing him back! (At least, I hope not!)
Steve

bradb
02-12-2007, 10:01 AM
TCOM is faulted by not what it was... but by what it could have been. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Dagwood
02-12-2007, 11:02 AM
Yeah, I think that another sequel to the Fast Eddie saga would be interesting. I'm just afraid that they would make a hash of it like the Godfather part 3. You have to wonder what they would try to do with a story line for Eddie though. Twilight of his life, gets inducted to the HOF...or maybe he is just referenced in the movie...maybe starting out at his funeral...and the storyline follows Vincent. Who knows...anyone else have any ideas of where they might like to see a third installment of this series go?

Dags

Deeman3
02-12-2007, 12:07 PM
A Prequel made in black and white starting off with Dick #### telling about this young road players who would leater face Fats at Aymes....fade to a 1938 Caddy with.....O.K. just a dream....

DeeMan

bradb
02-12-2007, 12:07 PM
The Hustler was more than about pool!... it was a brilliant, intense character study. A drama that had you pulled into it...when they broke Eddies thumbs the tension was scary as hell!!

Unfortunately because of the direction of TCOM a sequel would have to follow its weak drama.... (Fast Eddie Felson almost crying because he lost to some guy in a jogging suit?...) That film destroyed any powerful story that could be a sequel now.

bsmutz
02-12-2007, 01:07 PM
Just in case this thread doesn't die for awhile...
It's MOSCONI, MOSCONI, MOSCONI &amp; NEWMAN, NEWMAN, NEWMAN. Not Miscounni or Neuman. (Hoping that by seeing these names in print, the brain will remember...)

bradb
02-12-2007, 01:43 PM
I make typos on names because If I leave the window to check spelling I lose it. Probably I should type in word, then paste in when its spell checked.

I notice spelling errors in a lot of postings, but I ignore that because its discussion not a spelling bee. Thank god we have YOU to police the forum.

Thank you for your bluntness, I certainly won't forget your FRIENDLY little reminder.

DickLeonard
02-12-2007, 02:43 PM
Pooltchr I thought that Newman won the Oscar for the Color of Money because the Industry realized that they had screwed him on the Hustler. If you check the list of the 100 greatest movies the Hustler is ranked in the 100. Mainly because of Newmans part, every once in a while the Academy realizes it screwed up and makes restitution by awarding that actor an Oscar.####

That

Deeman3
02-12-2007, 03:12 PM
Dick,

I have to agree with you on the late reward Oscar. However, I also think that is one of the few movies that just didn't have a bad performance from any of the actors. All were brilliant and even the people with the smallest of roles seem to fit perfectly. To me, it was just a movie where nothing was out of place and could not have been improved on. They just don't make 'em like that anymore. You had to have an attention span longer than three minutes to appreciate a movie back then. No, explosions, no boobs, no special effects, this is Aymes Mister, just pool...and great acting.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DeeMan

DeeMan

Stretch
02-12-2007, 03:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Pooltchr I thought that Newman won the Oscar for the Color of Money because the Industry realized that they had screwed him on the Hustler. If you check the list of the 100 greatest movies the Hustler is ranked in the 100. Mainly because of Newmans part, every once in a while the Academy realizes it screwed up and makes restitution by awarding that actor an Oscar.####

#### that's like the commercial a really like where the reff comes out and says too the crowd, " i missed that call, in fact i wasn't even close. don't worry i'll penalise the other team for no good reason in the second half to even things out" lol. St.

Jal
02-12-2007, 03:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr>...It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest films ever made.

Wood Monkey <hr /></blockquote>After Tremors 1, 2 &amp; 3, you're probably right. If The Hustler had just one Graboid in it, there could be no question. Hard to believe Martin Scorsese directed the other one.

Jim

dr_dave
02-12-2007, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote alameda5:</font><hr> Out of these two classic films, which do you prefer?<hr /></blockquote>I liked them both equally well for different reasons.

FYI to you and others, I wrote three instructional articles on "Billiards on the Big Screen" in 2004. They can be found here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html). The articles describe the films in general, and they illustrate and explain the more interesting shots from the movies.

Enjoy,
Dave

onepocketchump
02-13-2007, 01:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whizman:</font><hr> oh please...it's like day and night....The Hustler was a great movie and as a pool player myself i found if much more believable..in the COM they were playing position to bank shots, whipping cues around like it was sword, and just plain going way over the top. i know it was a different era but really, who does that stuff....not even Earl...lol <hr /></blockquote>

Are you sure about Earl not doing stuff like that :-)

The pool in both movies is believable and also nonensical to a pool player. I guess you don't remember all the "trick" shots in the high stakes games in the Hustler. For example the one where Eddie calls a ball in the corner nearest him with two balls left on the table and then proceeds to bank the object ball into the other ball in the middle of the table and the comboed ball goes in and everyone claps.

These movies aren't about pool. They are both about character and discovery. In TCOM Vincent goes from talented showboat to real cold hustler and Felson realizes again that it's not the hustling life that he wants but really to be the best and to be the best you can't go through life manipulating people.

For the record TCOM was nominated for 4 Oscars. Newman got it because he gave a great performance.

I will agree wholeheartedly that the whole dancing and whipping the cue around was quite over the top. I fairness though, we all know the player that gets animated when they lose and some when they win. Perhaps not to that degree but I have seen my share of antics, even ashamedly performed way too many of them.

DickLeonard
02-13-2007, 09:49 AM
Deeman I have to agree with your analysis of The Hustler with every actor playing their Academy Award winning role. It was a truly believeable movie.

I believe if Tom Cruise twirled his cue in most poolrooms I was in. The operating room Doctor woud be asking him which arm did he want set first.####

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> The scene with Eddie and the "lab project", booze and showing his azz was embarassingly familiar.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Sid,

Do you remember his opponent in that scene? A Longview native that is about to win an Oscar.... </font color>

DeeMan
18 months out of Longview, TX.

bradb
02-13-2007, 10:11 AM
Bang on Dick. Also, how can anyone beleive that Fast Eddie Felson the greatest hustler of all time...the guy who beat Fats for the biggest money game ever...the guy who went into the toughest area of town and got his thumbs broke now playing a little old lady in a pool room next to a bowling alley for 5 bucks a game???
Take that script and tear it up!!!

onepocketchump
02-14-2007, 10:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Bang on Dick. Also, how can anyone beleive that Fast Eddie Felson the greatest hustler of all time...the guy who beat Fats for the biggest money game ever...the guy who went into the toughest area of town and got his thumbs broke now playing a little old lady in a pool room next to a bowling alley for 5 bucks a game???
Take that script and tear it up!!! <hr /></blockquote>

That is the whole point right there. Fast Eddie the pool player got shut down for big time pool. So he put pool on the back burner and became Eddie the liquor hustler, Eddie the local stakehorse but not Eddie the Player.

TCOM chronicles the fact that Eddie wants to be neither a pool hustler nor a liquor salesman nor a stakehorse but a Player, respected for his ability to flat out play. The whole thing is based on his efforts to rebuild his game and that includes playing his way back up the ranks.

I don't know, to me both movies makes sense. Both movies have great storytelling and great performances and both movies have lots of nuance to them.

It's easy to tear them apart from a pool insider's view. I am sure the Hustler was derided by pool players when it came out as not authentic enough. I personally was inspired to take up pool again by the Color of Money. It took me mny years to learn that the movie was not about how to hustle but instead about how to be true to yourself. I even went so far as to do the whole thing about putting a $100 bill on the rail to invite a money game. Never worked and got me some really strange looks.

It wasn't until many many years later that I saw the Hustler and read the book. After that I really saw both movies in a different light beyond the pool playing. So I will stick to my original opinion - both classics.

Snapshot9
02-15-2007, 09:05 AM
Just a for instance, but say if, maybe Turner, was to go and 'colorize' the Hustler, would you want to watch it again?

I know I would, who can forget Newman's blue eyes and smile from 'Cool Hand Luke'? And George Kennedy saying, come on Eddie, we got to stretch that little ole run out ... oh, wrong movie ... LOL

With the lack of good Pool movies today, a colorized Hustler just might spark some new interest.

bradb
02-15-2007, 01:26 PM
Agreed that Eddie was banned from big time but we're 30 years later. Plus there's plenty of raw action in the hustler arena and thats what Eddie was all about.

By having Eddie become Mr Rogers playing grammas takes away from the pure emotional power of the original which I think is what a sequel should be.

TCOM has its moments. Its just not there in character developement. Its not the story I think us old timers fault, but the way the story was scripted. It could have been much better if it captured that stark raw action of the first. Thats what made The Hustler an exciting drama.

Now it can't be done without ignoring TCOM and Pual won't be around forever. Thats all my point was.

JPB
02-15-2007, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Just a for instance, but say if, maybe Turner, was to go and 'colorize' the Hustler, would you want to watch it again?

I know I would, who can forget Newman's blue eyes and smile from 'Cool Hand Luke'? And George Kennedy saying, come on Eddie, we got to stretch that little ole run out ... oh, wrong movie ... LOL

With the lack of good Pool movies today, a colorized Hustler just might spark some new interest. <hr /></blockquote>

No, wouldn't watch. It is great black and white. I guess some would. Maybe I would look at it to see how bad it was, but no, I wouldn't watch it through. It was filmed beautifully, it should be left as it was intended. I actually like the story much less as I get older, as I like the characters less and less, so when I watch it I know I will be a little depressed. So when I watch I would prefer the film to look great at least. My view is probably in the minority though.

bradb
02-15-2007, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> Just a for instance, but say if, maybe Turner, was to go and 'colorize' the Hustler, would you want to watch it again?

I know I would, who can forget Newman's blue eyes and smile from 'Cool Hand Luke'? And George Kennedy saying, come on Eddie, we got to stretch that little ole run out ... oh, wrong movie ... LOL

With the lack of good Pool movies today, a colorized Hustler just might spark some new interest. <hr /></blockquote>

No, wouldn't watch. It is great black and white. I guess some would. Maybe I would look at it to see how bad it was, but no, I wouldn't watch it through. It was filmed beautifully, it should be left as it was intended. I actually like the story much less as I get older, as I like the characters less and less, so when I watch it I know I will be a little depressed. So when I watch I would prefer the film to look great at least. My view is probably in the minority though. <hr /></blockquote>

No you are right. Colorizing that would be like colorizing an Ansil Adams print, its what made the Hustler so dramatic.

BRussell
02-17-2007, 05:31 PM
The difference between the two that really stands out to me is that CoM is more conventional than the Hustler - the relationships, the conflicts, etc. They just are more odd in the Hustler, and make you think more about what's going on. The relationship between Fast Eddie and the woman in the Hustler would never have worked in the CoM. I suppose the movies were products of their times: Hustler from the crazy 60s and CoM from the conventional 80s.

bradb
02-17-2007, 06:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> The difference between the two that really stands out to me is that CoM is more conventional than the Hustler - the relationships, the conflicts, etc. They just are more odd in the Hustler, and make you think more about what's going on. The relationship between Fast Eddie and the woman in the Hustler would never have worked in the CoM. I suppose the movies were products of their times: Hustler from the crazy 60s and CoM from the conventional 80s. <hr /></blockquote>

Well the Hustler was written in the 50's and produced in 62, so it was really about earlier times. The radical 60's had'nt happened until about 65, 66.

I think there could have been a woman, I mean we're not dead yet in our 60's. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif It would have worked with Eddie still the excentric loner on the road hustlin but wiser and tougher, dropping in on his woman and doing the scam. Eastwood did it up to his 70's. They could of had him patching things up with George C Scot (dead now unfortunately) and kept the energy going. There's still danger in pool hustlin, go down around the tough part of Detroit or LA (probably even more dangerous these days, people carry 9 millimeters now)... Add the young buck sure, but wimpy Tom Cruise... Johnny Depp, Brad Pitt any of a dozen dramatic actors would have worked. Then do the switching to pro storyline.

They brought in the gate with Cruise, but they missed a chance at another classic.

GulfportDoc
02-17-2007, 06:34 PM
"The Hustler" was a serious movie made about adult themes at the turn of the decade from the 50's to the 60's. There was at least as much non-pool storyline as there was showcasing pool. This was screen writing at it's best, and the actors all gave academy award performances. Once in awhile I still find myself daydreaming about the alluring Piper Laurie character, Sarah. She gave the performance of her career. I admit my bias toward the pool theme, but the story and the action as it was presented made an impression on me like no other movie I've ever seen. I believe it to be one of the 10 best movies in history. In 1961 I travelled to Ames after seeing the movie. The place was just as it had been depicted in the film. I felt as though I was in a tabernacle-- the Mecca of pool.

The sequel was merely a vehicle for Paul Newman to play a George C. Scott type roll. The story was not compelling, and nothing really came alive off the screen. I don't think a third film would be possible. No one is going to spend the time and money to develop an interesting story with mature emotions in it. Most all movies today are made for kids.

Doc

Fran Crimi
02-17-2007, 07:02 PM
Interesting idea, Brad, but I think the problem with bringing Newman back as the player in the COM was that the 80's were all about 9 Ball. 14.1 Was looked at as the quietly sophisticated game, the game of kings. 9 Ball in the 80's was all about flash and adrenaline rushes. There were monster breaks and crazy jump shots. It was fast and loose --- pretty much the exact opposite of 14.1.

As much as I hated it, Cruise flipping the cue around was a brilliant move. Non-players were flipping cues around pool rooms for years after. Upscale rooms shot up all over the place. Goes to show just how much influence one film can have. People may not have been enthralled with it but there's no denying the boom it created in the billiard industry....a boom that lasted a good 10 years. Now THAT's significant. No other film has been able to do what the COM did for our industry.

The COM got people out and playing. That's the best thing that could have happened to our industry. The Hustler, as great as it was, didn't have as big of and effect in pool rooms as the COM.

Fran

Dagwood
02-17-2007, 11:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GulfportDoc:</font><hr> I don't think a third film would be possible. No one is going to spend the time and money to develop an interesting story with mature emotions in it. Most all movies today are made for kids.

Doc <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I would agree for the most part Doc, but I do think that there are plenty of ways that a third film could be written that would both:

(a) provide a sophisticated storyline for the adults, with enough base in reality as it relates to billiards in the modern day to satisfy us degenerate pool players

and

(b) Provide plenty of action and/or comedy to satisfy the younger crowd, stimulating yet another growth/boom in the industry.

Alot of factors have to come together just right for this to happen. Right director, screenplay, actors, and above all timing. The Hustler, on top of having a great script, actors and direction, had was released at the perfect time. All of those factors together is why it is consistantly voted one of the top 10 greatest movies ever made. The TCOM had many of these characteristics, except for the script. Had the script been better, perhaps it would be looked at in a different light. (I'll admit casting Cruise as the Vincent was a product of the times)

Alot has changed in the industry since TCOM, (philipino invasion, greater proliferation of drugs, harder for road players to stay annonymous due to the internet, ect..), so I think there is plenty to base a third installment of the series on. And it doesn't even have to be about what Eddie is doing now. You could start at Eddie's funeral and show what happened to him after he decided to make a comeback. It would still feature Newman, doesn't have to have the Vincent character, (or Cruise for that matter), and I think would have enough of a STORY to tell to make everyone happy. Just my two cents....

Dags</font color>

bradb
02-18-2007, 08:58 AM
I agree with you Fran, COM was the shot in the arm pool needed, my beef is they could have had it both ways.
Can you image Matt Dammon doing the cue twirling scene or Pitt!

Fast Eddie was the king of nine ball on the road. He destroyed anyone who bragged and treated other fish to drinks all around.
True you could'nt have brought back 14-1, but a rousing 9 ball match with Eddie and a tough new version of Fats, thats what was needed. Its what made the Rocky formula work so well. The tension of that build up with the young killer in todays hustling world against the old hustler of another era. There's your emotional story right there. Eddie makes his comeback while juggling a romantic relationship thats as powerful as the first. As noted by Dagwood its the strength of Newmans acting and his interplay with other strong characters that set the drama. Its was'nt just pool that made the original such a gripping story. Its like the Titanic was'nt really about the boat.
All the new things in pool could have been brought forward and we could have seen Eddie cope with that as he made his comeback.

I hope some screen writer is reading this. (In my dreams...) /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

PS... Since COM has been done, we may have to kill off Eddie as Dags suggested and start anew.
Quentin Tarantino are you listening?...there's this young kid at the funeral and he looks remarkably like Eddie and... well you know!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

dg-in-centralpa
02-18-2007, 09:07 AM
To make another movie work, I would ask someone like you and #### for stories of the older players and where they've been/gone, like Felson. Surely the two of you have enough stories combined.

DG - jmho

BRussell
02-18-2007, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> The difference between the two that really stands out to me is that CoM is more conventional than the Hustler - the relationships, the conflicts, etc. They just are more odd in the Hustler, and make you think more about what's going on. The relationship between Fast Eddie and the woman in the Hustler would never have worked in the CoM. I suppose the movies were products of their times: Hustler from the crazy 60s and CoM from the conventional 80s. <hr /></blockquote>

Well the Hustler was written in the 50's and produced in 62, so it was really about earlier times. The radical 60's had'nt happened until about 65, 66.<hr /></blockquote> I'm talking about the filmmaking, not the time the story itself occurred. The filmmaking in CoM was more conventional than Hustler, and perhaps that was part of the times the films were made. I mean, the peak periods of people like Fellini and Bergman were the context when the Hustler was made! Filmmaking just wasn't the same when CoM was made.

[ QUOTE ]
I think there could have been a woman, I mean we're not dead yet in our 60's. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif It would have worked with Eddie still the excentric loner on the road hustlin but wiser and tougher, dropping in on his woman and doing the scam. Eastwood did it up to his 70's. <hr /></blockquote> What I meant was that it was an unconventional story line: Fast Eddie hitches up with a "cripple" woman alcoholic who commits suicide. It really added an off-kilter feel to the movie that wouldn't have worked in CoM. The two romantic relationships in CoM were both very straightforward.

Dagwood
02-18-2007, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> The two romantic relationships in CoM were both very straightforward. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I don't know about anyone else, but I got the impression that Carmen and Vincent's relationship was anything but straight forward. Also, I think Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio saved whatever credibility for Tom Cruise by playing the foil to his antics throughout most of the move. Had she not been in there, we wouldn't be even talking about the movie at all. Just another Poolhall Junkies....

Dags</font color>

BRussell
02-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Smart, tough woman and goofy, dumb man? Sounds like most every other relationship I've seen. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'm not saying that relationship was completely uninteresting, just that it was much more conventional than the Newman-Laurie relationship. But if we don't all agree, so be it, it's a matter of subjective taste anyway!

Stretch
02-18-2007, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> To make another movie work, I would ask someone like you and #### for stories of the older players and where they've been/gone, like Felson. Surely the two of you have enough stories combined.

DG - jmho <hr /></blockquote>

STORYS?!! DG What a great idea. I had the time of my life while spending a whole day with both Dick and Fran!! The storeys were non stop. Every one of them could have been a movie theme. It was unbelievable because they both knew a lot of the same old timers, larger than life characters and industry insiders and they each had thier own story's about thier experiences with them. TOO MUCH! I was like a kid in a candy store soaking it all in, HEAVEN! They have a movie and then some! St.

dg-in-centralpa
02-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Their stories, good/bad/indifferent, are a piece of history and should be written down before they are lost forever. Many outside of the pool world may not find them worthwhile reading, but I certainly would, as would many others here.

DG

wolfdancer
02-18-2007, 03:06 PM
Interesting observations.....the "adult themes" were a little grim when you label them.....COM was less of a morality play, and more "fun"
As Fran notes....it brought people into the sport, and made pool more of a social activity...then the dark days of pool hall hustling.

Fran Crimi
02-18-2007, 08:00 PM
Thanks, DG. Don't worry, the stories won't be lost. I'm writing mine down. I hope #### is too.

Here's a few quickies about the COM.

I was playing in a tournament back when the men and women were playing together. I don't remember the location but I remember it being a large place with lots of stands that went up high. After my match, I noticed a guy sitting near the top wearing sunglasses and I thought that was rather odd, considering the room was fairly dark to begin with. I happened to mention the guy with the sunglasses to one of the officials there and he said, "Don't tell anyone because he doesn't want to cause a scene, but that's Paul Newman doing research for his role in the COM." I thought, wow...very cool. A short while later, he stepped down off the bleachers and sure enough, an entourage of I guess his assistants followed him quietly out the back door. No one in the room noticed him.

Back when he was writing the book, I remember seeing Tevis sitting in the stands in New London, Connecticut, watching the 9 ball tournament and taking notes. I was told by one of the players that he was traveling on the road with David Howard (who was in the event) as research for his next book, which was the COM. (I also made it into his book that event as the woman referee that he mentions.) I went up to him and said hello and we chatted for awhile. He confirmed that he was on the road with Little David studying him and doing research for the book. I think that Vincent's character was heavily influenced by David Howard. I'm referring to the on-table flash stuff. That was David Howard---fast and loose.

Fran

bradb
02-19-2007, 10:04 AM
Fran, did you read the book, and if so was it close to the movie?

Anybody else too, I'm interested to know if the book is worth reading.

Fran Crimi
02-19-2007, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Fran, did you read the book, and if so was it close to the movie?

Anybody else too, I'm interested to know if the book is worth reading. <hr /></blockquote>


I did read the book, but it's been a long time. I'm sure there were differences from the film, but I couldn't give you specifics unless I read the book again. Yes, the book is definitely worth reading. It's a pool classic. I'm sorry we lost Walter Tevis. I bet he would have written at least a couple of more books.


Fran

bradb
02-19-2007, 06:11 PM
Thanks Fran. I just found a video of you and 3 other greats on the Charlie Rose show. I did'nt know you were so high up in the womens circuit! So if you say the books worth reading thats good enough for me.

Looks like you are the best person to ask this next question.

Why have the ex women snooker players from Britain had so much success here in womens pool, while the male snooker players have yet to make a mark? I suspect because there may be fewer women players here in comparison. Is this true?

GulfportDoc
02-19-2007, 06:15 PM
<font color="blue"> I would agree for the most part Doc, but I do think that there are plenty of ways that a third film could be written that would both:... <hr /></blockquote><font color="black">
You make good points. And yes, there's no doubt an absorbing sequel COULD be made. However my point was that no one at the major studios is going to spend the time and money to develop an interesting and mature storyline for a 2nd sequel. It seems that the only time Hollywood will develop serious stories is when they want to show decadence or "alternate" lifestyles...

Doc

Fran Crimi
02-19-2007, 07:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
Why have the ex women snooker players from Britain had so much success here in womens pool, while the male snooker players have yet to make a mark? I suspect because there may be fewer women players here in comparison. Is this true? <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Brad, let me answer your question with another question. If Fisher and Corr were born and raised in the U.S., do you think they would still be champions? I do. I think it's more than their snooker backgrounds that make them champions. It's who they are as people---their hard work ethics, overall attitude, strong love of competition and whatever else goes into their chemical and psychological composition.

There is no denying that their snooker background has given them some very important tools, but I think those tools are just a piece of what it takes to be a champion.

Fran

Stretch
02-19-2007, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
Why have the ex women snooker players from Britain had so much success here in womens pool, while the male snooker players have yet to make a mark? I suspect because there may be fewer women players here in comparison. Is this true? <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Brad, let me answer your question with another question. If Fisher and Corr were born and raised in the U.S., do you think they would still be champions? I do. I think it's more than their snooker backgrounds that make them champions. It's who they are as people---their hard work ethics, overall attitude, strong love of competition and whatever else goes into their chemical and psychological composition.

There is no denying that their snooker background has given them some very important tools, but I think those tools are just a piece of what it takes to be a champion.

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

Amen to that Fran. They were both champion Snooker players before pool so right off the hop they knew what it took to be the best. The game of snooker on it's own does not ensure a free pass to the finals. St.

wolfdancer
02-19-2007, 08:47 PM
Fran, there were many differences as I remember. Not knocking the book or the movie (I enjoyed both)...but the movie was a total rewrite.
Interest about Paul Newman, and you...in New London,Conn. I spent 4 years there....not exactly the hotbed of pool at that time.Steve (poolteacher) also spent time there...the sea scouts as I remember.

pooltchr
02-19-2007, 10:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Fran, there were many differences as I remember. Not knocking the book or the movie (I enjoyed both)...but the movie was a total rewrite.
Interest about Paul Newman, and you...in New London,Conn. I spent 4 years there....not exactly the hotbed of pool at that time.Steve (poolteacher) also spent time there...the sea scouts as I remember. <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf...That was COLD!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
As I recall, the only pool table I saw in New London was at the Academy, but I gave those a pretty good workout!
Steve

Dagwood
02-19-2007, 11:32 PM
LOL...Fran's talking about the Crown Billiards in New London. It's still there, though Sal and Dotty sold it years ago. It's now under the ownership (3rd different owners) of Linda and John Fargo. Before I joined the military, that was where I cued up and played all the time. They still have the best tables in SE CT. A new addition, they've taken out the 10' billiard table and put a 12' snooker table with good nap cloth. Good practice table if you're getting ready for a match.

I wish I were playing pool back when Tevis was roading around with David Howard. I've heard many stories come out of that room from some of the people who were there. Most have passed on by now, (RIP Cliff), or moved on. (I think Norman Maniccelli is in Las Vegas now).


In response to Doc...I don't argue that the studios wouldn't take the time to develop a gripping and absorbing storyline to a 2nd sequel. But I do think that if someone with enough knowledge of the game, and history of the game and storylines of the first two movies were to get a curly hair under their chin, that it could happen. The studios are all about having other people do the actual leg work for them. Maybe one of our fellow CCB'rs would be interested....

Dags

Fran Crimi
02-19-2007, 11:55 PM
You're close, Dag. It was called 'Gold Crown Billiards' and owned by Sy and Dolly Eckstadt. They were like parents to us WPBA players in the old days. They would let us all sleep over their house so we could save money on hotel rates. We were all over the place in sleeping bags in every room...Sy had a heck of a time trying to get to the bathroom in the morning with all those women in the house. If he wasn't climbing over us he was banging on the bathroom door. Dolly would be up early cooking breakfast for an army. I don't know how they did it but it was some of the best times I ever had. The guys had to stay at the hotels and would often show up for Dolly's breakfast. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Dagwood
02-20-2007, 12:09 AM
You're right it is Sy...It's been 10 years since I've heard the stories about them, so forgive me if I got it wrong. Still the same ol place though. Would be nice if the new owners would give back to the pool community like Sy and Dolly did...

bradb
02-20-2007, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>
Why have the ex women snooker players from Britain had so much success here in womens pool, while the male snooker players have yet to make a mark? I suspect because there may be fewer women players here in comparison. Is this true? <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Brad, let me answer your question with another question. If Fisher and Corr were born and raised in the U.S., do you think they would still be champions? I do. I think it's more than their snooker backgrounds that make them champions. It's who they are as people---their hard work ethics, overall attitude, strong love of competition and whatever else goes into their chemical and psychological composition.

There is no denying that their snooker background has given them some very important tools, but I think those tools are just a piece of what it takes to be a champion.

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

Amen to that Fran. They were both champion Snooker players before pool so right off the hop they knew what it took to be the best. The game of snooker on it's own does not ensure a free pass to the finals. St. <hr /></blockquote>


My question was why are the women having success in pool and not the men? Steve Davis was no slouch! he dominated snooker in the early 80's. But he's had limited success. So where you are born or what game is not the factor in talent.

Did you Fran find it difficult as a woman to become a pro here as compared to Britain or even other countries. Is the venue as wide here as it is elsewhere?

My answer to your question then could be, if Fisher and Corr were born here they might not even be playing pool!


I had a hunch the COM book was sabotaged by the movie. Definitely will read the bookt now.

Fran Crimi
02-20-2007, 08:46 AM
I'm not sure if you're fishing for a particular answer, Brad, but I gave the one I felt was true. That's the best I can offer on the subject based on my experience in the pro leagues.

Fran

bradb
02-20-2007, 08:58 AM
Fair enough. I suspect its the fact that snooker is big in England and theres a lot of women players there.

I've watched snooker players who turn to pool with some interest, If you put Fisher or Corr on a snooker table with Davis he would destroy them, yet in pool he would probably lose. There seems to be something about pool that suits women.