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View Full Version : Inside english to help make a ball on the rail?



BRussell
02-11-2007, 01:49 PM
A while back, a friend of mine told me that he regularly uses inside english on shots where the object ball is close to the rail. He says that he uses it to make the ball, not to play position. This individual is probably the best player I know, rarely misses shots, and uses english well to play position. But this one just makes no sense to me.

If anything I tend to use outside english, even if I don't need it for position. From what I've read, it can allow you to aim more accurately because it reduces friction on the object ball. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to use english except when necessary for position, but at least there's a solid rationale behind it, right?

But I really don't understand the use of inside english for this purpose. The reason given was that it "spins the ball down the rail the right way," or something. It was pretty vague. But lately I've asked others about this, and I was surprised to learn that this theory seems to be quite common among the better players I know (we're talking local 8-ball league players).

A couple of questions about this:

1) How common is this?
2) What's the theory behind it?
3) Does it have some validity that I'm missing?

Jal
02-11-2007, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> ...A couple of questions about this:

1) How common is this?
2) What's the theory behind it?
3) Does it have some validity that I'm missing? <hr /></blockquote>As far as (2) and (3), the idea is to induce some spin on the object ball such that when it contacts the far jaw of the pocket, it will have more of a tendancy to "twist" into it, rather than rattle between the two jaws. This does have some validity, but there are a couple of things which argue against it.

First, you're complicationg the shot with english. Second, you could very well end up reducing the amount of spin the object ball would pick up anyway from the cut angle (CIT or collision induced throw/spin). Whether or not you do depends on the cut angle, speed of the shot, and just how much inside english is applied.

There are some problems with outside engish too. Besides adding the same complications (squirt and swerve), directional errors resulting from not getting the spin just right can be just as severe, or even more so, than not using it. However, it does have the virtue of bringing the effective physical cut angle closer to the "natural" geometric cut angle, which I suppose we tend to have the best feel for.

My personal opinion is that using english for something other than position, or some special situations where the shot can't be made without it, is a dubious practice. But I'm far, far from a top player, so take that for what it's worth.

As always, whatever floats your boat.

Jim

Stretch
02-11-2007, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> ...A couple of questions about this:

1) How common is this?
2) What's the theory behind it?
3) Does it have some validity that I'm missing? <hr /></blockquote>As far as (2) and (3), the idea is to induce some spin on the object ball such that when it contacts the far jaw of the pocket, it will have more of a tendancy to "twist" into it, rather than rattle between the two jaws. This does have some validity, but there are a couple of things which argue against it.

First, you're complicationg the shot with english. Second, you could very well end up reducing the amount of spin the object ball would pick up anyway from the cut angle (CIT or collision induced throw/spin). Whether or not you do depends on the cut angle, speed of the shot, and just how much inside english is applied.

There are some problems with outside engish too. Besides adding the same complications (squirt and swerve), directional errors resulting from not getting the spin just right can be just as severe, or even more so, than not using it. However, it does have the virtue of bringing the effective physical cut angle closer to the "natural" geometric cut angle, which I suppose we tend to have the best feel for.

My personal opinion is that using english for something other than position, or some special situations where the shot can't be made without it, is a dubious practice. But I'm far, far from a top player, so take that for what it's worth.

As always, whatever floats your boat.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Jim, yes i've heard the same things about inside english for up the rail shots. I use it a lot myself, it just depends. You see useing outside english it's real easy to hit the ob too thick causing a jarred pocket, or if the ob is just off the rail you can easily cut it too thin. Even if your on target the outside english will throw it a bit catching the pocket beak. For me a little inside helps the ob hug the rail all the way up and eliminates the tendency to cut it too thick as the inside spin will hold it. On slightly off the rail ob's you can easily hit rail first and still make the ob, this gives me quite a larger margin for error on choosing the inside english option. The shot has to be made softly to be most effective however. As it was explained to me " nice easy stroke, and let the pocket gobble it up". But like i say it's only one way of doing it. It really depends on your positional requirements. This shot is a staple for balls on the rails close the the pocket when you need to go 2 or 3 rails back to centre or beyond. St.

BigRigTom
02-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Can someone define :Inside English"?
I have heard several attempts to define it and so far I am not sure this discussion if following any of those definitions.

For instance....Cue ball on the foot spot, object ball on the long rail to the right of the shooter and near the corner pocket at the top right corner.

1. Is inside english the left english or is it the right english on the cue ball?
2. Why is this so obscure in the 1st place?

I would shoot this shot with a little left (running) english and attempt to hit the rail 1st.
Is that what you guys are recommending?

BRussell
02-11-2007, 06:11 PM
Yes, I agree with everything you've said Stretch. I consider my habit of using some outside english to probably be a bad one. I'm still intrigued by this idea of using inside english along the rail though, because it seems so counter-intuitive to me.

BRussell
02-11-2007, 06:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Can someone define :Inside English" <hr /></blockquote> The way I was using the term was to mean using english of the same type as the direction you're cutting the ball, i.e., right english when you're cutting the ball to the right.

SPetty
02-11-2007, 06:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> For instance....Cue ball on the foot spot, object ball on the long rail to the right of the shooter and near the corner pocket at the top right corner.

1. Is inside english the left english or is it the right english on the cue ball?<hr /></blockquote>In the case you are describing, left english is inside english.

BigRigTom
02-11-2007, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> For instance....Cue ball on the foot spot, object ball on the long rail to the right of the shooter and near the corner pocket at the top right corner.

1. Is inside english the left english or is it the right english on the cue ball?<hr /></blockquote>In the case you are describing, left english is inside english. <hr /></blockquote>

THANK YOU!
I thought I had it wrong again!
That was really playing with my brain....and I don't need any more confusion there than there is already.

he he /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

BigRigTom
02-11-2007, 07:07 PM
This is the 1st time I have used Cuetable in a while.
Hope it works.
This the shot I was talking about.
This would be "high Inside" english.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HbiG2PATU3cbiG3cbaF3cbRE3cbiF2kATU3kbQn3kLIj4kb JF3kFWv3kFWv3kFOy3uBGH@

ceebee
02-11-2007, 09:24 PM
I use this shot quite frequently, The inside spin helps me get the CB around the table (3-4-5 rails), if necessary.

Bert discusses this shot on the 6 Star &amp; 9 Star Drills.

A player can really manipulate the CB to do lots of things on this shot, with different types of spin, follow or draw. It is a great shot to know &amp; understand.

Deeman3
02-12-2007, 07:08 AM
One reason for a little inside on occasion is that most of us know that you really don't hit the rail and ball at the same time for most rail shots as some beleive. You aremuch better off to cheat to the rail side a hair especially when the angle increases. This is to offset the collision induced throw in the shot. Of course, this can be countered with outside english but you had better hit it perfectly when yo are at a distance form the pocket. If you have good skills for inside english and know how much to offset, when you hit the rail marginally before the ball, as you should, the shot will go even if you are slightly off as it rebounds off the cushion into the ball.

However, most of my decisions on how to shoot a shot are over ruled by position considerations unless I am having to cinch a shot.

DeeMan

Scott Lee
02-12-2007, 07:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> For instance....Cue ball on the foot spot, object ball on the long rail to the right of the shooter and near the corner pocket at the top right corner.

1. Is inside english the left english or is it the right english on the cue ball?<hr /></blockquote>In the case you are describing, left english is inside english. <hr /></blockquote>

...which is exactly why instructors choose to use right and left, as opposed to inside and outside. Far too much confusion among players...right and left keeps it simple.

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
02-12-2007, 07:32 AM
It depends on how close to the rail the ob is and how much of an angle the shot is. And whether you like it or not, you have to factor in what you need to do with the cb for position play. So, as you can see, there are a lot of variables to consider and a lot of different scenarios.

As a general rule, the benefit of using inside on a shot that is on or just barely off the rail lies completely in what the cue ball is doing on it's way off of the rail. These shots are actually rail-first shots rather than on the way into the rail as most players would think. The cb's path off of the rail is favorable towards helping the shot.

However, the angle of the shot must be factored in. The greater the angle, the more beneficial inside spin becomes to the shot. If it's barely an angle, then I wouldn't bother with inside unless it's required for cb position.

I prefer outside on shots that are at least 1/4 inch off the rail and that have a substantial angle. If there is little or no angle, outside could be detrimental and should be used with caution, and only if position requires it.

Fran

Scott Lee
02-12-2007, 07:32 AM
This would strictly be based on the severity of the cut angle. If it were 30 degrees or less, I would NEVER use (in this case) inside spin, unless it were for cueball position. It's simply not necessary, and just one more variable to make it more difficult to pocket the OB. On a cut of 45-60 degrees, the utility of using sidespin (inside) becomes slightly more reasonable, for pocketing the OB. Over 60 degrees, you almost have to use inside spin...unless you're very close to the OB with the CB.

Scott Lee

rangoonkid
02-12-2007, 08:05 AM

Deeman3
02-12-2007, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Using Inside English on most rail shots is very smart and the right thing to do especially on long draws back down table. It transfers running outside natural English on the object ball and they pocket better. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Whatever possible benefit you describe here is far outweighed by the negatives in the shot you describe. On a long and difficult draw shot, introducing inside is not a practical application for a few reasons. The deflection caused by the increased speed will most likely negate the small advantage you claim in introducing a small amount of counterspin to the object ball on the rail and causes most players to not only miss the shot but miss badly. It's just those shots you describe that a players has to suck it up, use no side and reduce all the varibles they possibly can. Anything above moderate speed complicates inside a whole lot and that's exactly why most people never become accomplished at it. What many can do with a soft or moderate stroke, only a few can do at real pace. </font color>

DeeMan

dr_dave
02-12-2007, 11:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> A while back, a friend of mine told me that he regularly uses inside english on shots where the object ball is close to the rail. He says that he uses it to make the ball, not to play position. This individual is probably the best player I know, rarely misses shots, and uses english well to play position. But this one just makes no sense to me.

If anything I tend to use outside english, even if I don't need it for position. From what I've read, it can allow you to aim more accurately because it reduces friction on the object ball. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to use english except when necessary for position, but at least there's a solid rationale behind it, right?

But I really don't understand the use of inside english for this purpose. The reason given was that it "spins the ball down the rail the right way," or something. It was pretty vague. But lately I've asked others about this, and I was surprised to learn that this theory seems to be quite common among the better players I know (we're talking local 8-ball league players).

A couple of questions about this:

1) How common is this?
2) What's the theory behind it?
3) Does it have some validity that I'm missing? <hr /></blockquote>
For questions 2 and 3, see Section 4.06 ("Rail Cut Shots") in my book ("The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards"). See also:

- NV 4.17 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-17.htm)

- HSV 4.10 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-10.htm)

They visually explain some of the reasons fairly well.

BTW, a more appropriate term for the inside English in this context is "running English" (or "natural English").

Regards,
Dave

BRussell
02-12-2007, 12:49 PM
Thanks for all of your very thoughtful comments. I see a few common trends here, so I want to try to summarize some of them. Let me know if this is what you're seeing too.

1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position.

2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket.

3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot."

Fair?

Deeman3
02-12-2007, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Thanks for all of your very thoughtful comments. I see a few common trends here, so I want to try to summarize some of them. Let me know if this is what you're seeing too.

1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position. <font color="blue"> Yes, yes, yes </font color>

2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket. <font color="blue"> Like sex, in some cases, this is highly overrated in it's usefullness in most cases </font color>

3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot." <font color="blue"> Yes, but, of course, it has to come off the rail at the right place but seems more consistent than reverse english for the same shot. </font color>

Fair? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Except for my earlier point of the effect of accuracy loss as speed of the stroke is increased, especially at very fast speeds.</font color>

DeeMan

bradb
02-12-2007, 02:10 PM
BRussell. I would add just a few comments.

For an extreme angle down the rail, inside top spin works along with hitting the rail a split second sooner, You can pot a ball 90 dg with this technique and it really jolts your opponent who thought he left it safe.

Sometimes you need to get back up table so you need bottom with some outside spin. No matter what you use If you hit it clean it will pocket as long as it's not the extreme example as mentioned..

English is such a generic term, best to say top or bottom with inside ouside (or left or right spin.) It makes it clear your intent for executing the shot. Cheers, Brad

Fran Crimi
02-12-2007, 02:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Thanks for all of your very thoughtful comments. I see a few common trends here, so I want to try to summarize some of them. Let me know if this is what you're seeing too.

1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position. <font color="blue"> Well, it only complicates it if you miss. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket. <font color="blue"> I'm not sure about this one. Yes, lots of people say that but I don't think it's the main reason why inside english helps with balls frozen to a rail. See next one for the real reason. </font color>

3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot." <font color="blue"> The point I was trying to make about that was that you actually ARE shooting the shot rail first if you are applying inside english to an ob frozen to a rail even though you don't think you are. And, in fact, the real benefit coming from that shot is the cue ball's path off of the rail when it hits rail-first. (Meaning the angle the cb takes off the rail helps it to push the ob in the direction of the pocket.) I don't think you can make a frozen ball with inside english without hitting rail first, well at least not any substantial shot on the rail. I'm not talking about a hanger or one with a small angle. (You would probably have some margin for error on those shots.)

I think the reason a lot of mid-range players miss and get frustrated trying to use inside with shots frozen to a rail is because they are trying to hit the ob first rather than the rail just before the ob. It's very very close, but it's there. You have to go rail first.

Fran</font color>

Fair? <hr /></blockquote>

rangoonkid
02-12-2007, 05:24 PM

Stretch
02-12-2007, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Deeman said: Whatever possible benefit you describe here is far outweighed by the negatives in the shot you describe. On a long and difficult draw shot, introducing inside is not a practical application for a few reasons. The deflection caused by the increased speed will most likely negate the small advantage you claim in introducing a small amount of counterspin to the object ball on the rail and causes most players to not only miss the shot but miss badly.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dear sir, When you jack up for an inside draw, there is almost no deflection. And on top of that I play with one of the high tech $900 cues that has almost no deflection so that is why I do it.

Put the cue ball on the spot, put a piece of chalk on the foot rail on the center diamond. Shoot at the chalk using center ball, you hit it square. Now jack up and hit high right follow, about 2:00, the deflection, or masse will miss the chalk almost a full ball. Now set up an inside draw shot, jack up 2", hit low right 4:30 and notice the deflection is nill and you hit the chalk. Now set up a spin shot, totally level cue, hit 3:00 one tip right and there is no deflection, actually the cue ball was pushed a touch left.

So you can shoot English, if you know what you are doing, can control it and are using the right cue.

I did not say you shoot inside on every shot. I said it's a great shot because it helps pocket the OB best and I go with it a lot, but I sometimes use running draw, or spin around and come back down. Before I shoot the shot, like in Chess, I explor all my moves and possibilities first and then choose the shot with the best percentage of success. On most draws inside is un natural to me and I would normally go the other way but I know to resist this temptation.

If you are a beginner or apa 2 to 4 do not use any English.
5's use some, 6's need to be using it all and 7's should have all the shots mastered. When you get on the mini tours you use a lot to get out of trouble or when placed in a bad spot. The guys I play with on tour use mostly center ball or a half tip, but will load up and juice the ball when they have to come with a shot. These people have practiced these shots thousands of times for over a decade and no matter what the deflection is, if you shoot them enough your mental cpu and hand eye co-ordination will take into account these factors and make the necessary last minute aim adjustments with out you even thinking about it. You are then, actually, one with the shot playing by feel. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I like your breakdown and think it's fairly represents the reality of english usage. Extreme english is a "feel shot", the more experience at useing it in key situations the better at it you get. Sometimes you just need a lot of check side to hold the cueball, or you need a wide kick to avoid obstacles. The best players know when and how to come with these shots. That's largely the difference in a lot of cases. They're just that ball or 2 better. St.

BLACKHEART
02-12-2007, 08:07 PM
I agree with Dr. Dave. I think that OUTSIDE english (using the cling theory), would throw the object ball straight down the rail towards the pocket. On shots more straight down the rail, I use inside english to throw the object ball TOWARDS the rail, to keep it from going wide of the pocket...JER

rangoonkid
02-12-2007, 10:54 PM

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 07:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Deeman said: Whatever possible benefit you describe here is far outweighed by the negatives in the shot you describe. On a long and difficult draw shot, introducing inside is not a practical application for a few reasons. The deflection caused by the increased speed will most likely negate the small advantage you claim in introducing a small amount of counterspin to the object ball on the rail and causes most players to not only miss the shot but miss badly.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dear sir, When you jack up for an inside draw, there is almost no deflection. <font color="blue"> You have taught me something. I did not know the shot exactly as you described earlier but now knowing that jacking up eliminates deflection, I can change my entire game to now accomodate this new knowledge. </font color> And on top of that I play with one of the high tech $900 cues that has almost no deflection so that is why I do it. <font color="blue"> Sadly, I am stuck with a $2000 low tech cue so I guess I'll never eliminate deflection until I "jack up" more often. Thanks for the lesson.</font color>

Put the cue ball on the spot, put a piece of chalk on the foot rail on the center diamond. Shoot at the chalk using center ball, you hit it square. Now jack up and hit high right follow, about 2:00, the deflection, or masse will miss the chalk almost a full ball. Now set up an inside draw shot, jack up 2", hit low right 4:30 and notice the deflection is nill and you hit the chalk. <font color="blue"> My game is far from trying exotic shots as you describe. I'll wait until I hit APA level 2 to try something this radical. </font color> Now set up a spin shot, totally level cue, hit 3:00 one tip right and there is no deflection, actually the cue ball was pushed a touch left. <font color="blue">Wow, I've gotta turn loose of that 900 bucks sooner or later. </font color>

So you can shoot English, if you know what you are doing, can control it and are using the right cue. <font color="blue">I bow to your obvious higher level of knowledge than mine. Forgive me, but you never know on the internet, if your dealing with a banger or a highly skilled APA 7. I'll be more careful from now on. </font color>

I did not say you shoot inside on every shot. I said it's a great shot because it helps pocket the OB best and I go with it a lot, but I sometimes use running draw, or spin around and come back down. <font color="blue">Wow </font color> Before I shoot the shot, like in Chess, I explor all my moves and possibilities first and then choose the shot with the best percentage of success. <font color="blue"> Sounds like good advice to me! </font color> On most draws inside is un natural to me and I would normally go the other way but I know to resist this temptation. <font color="blue"> Most on here know me well enough that I am against anything "Unnatural", or kinky, and will follow your prudent advice.</font color>

If you are a beginner or apa 2 to 4 do not use any English. <font color="blue"> Oh! I only aspire to those giddy heights, but I can dream, can't I? </font color>
5's use some, 6's need to be using it all and 7's should have all the shots mastered. <font color="blue"> So, like an APA pretty much knows it all, right?</font color> When you get on the mini tours you use a lot to get out of trouble or when placed in a bad spot. The guys I play with on tour use mostly center ball or a half tip, but will load up and juice the ball when they have to come with a shot. These people have practiced these shots thousands of times for over a decade and no matter what the deflection is, if you shoot them enough your mental cpu and hand eye co-ordination will take into account these factors and make the necessary last minute aim adjustments with out you even thinking about it. You are then, actually, one with the shot playing by feel. <font color="blue"> You, sir, are now my Zen master. I had no idea you were a tour player. My Bad! Does your CPU ever gamble? Just curious, i never seen one of them thar APA 7 type fellers and would love to be "exposed" (fully clothed of course) to some of this type activity so i can learn more about this spin stuff.</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Your respectfully and greatfully,

DeeMan
your humble servant...

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 08:26 AM

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>Response to your cute snorky post.<hr /></blockquote>
You most definitely earned the post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244443&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) from The D-man.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>So you are saying If I don't have a beard and a phd behind my name you don't listen to me here?<hr /></blockquote> I don't always wear a beard. Maybe I'll shave it off later today just to spite you. I bet a few people would still listen, even if I were clean-shaven.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>Name me the PHD's who have every gotten on the pro tour? Name me one who has ever ran a rack?<hr /></blockquote>
Making it on the pro tour takes total commitment and dedication to the game (not to mention great 3D perception and vision, great eye-hand coordination and control, mental focus and concentration, etc.). Most PhD's have day jobs that prevent that sort of commitment. Now, in terms of PhD's that can run racks frequently, I have met many ... myself included.

Regards,
Dave (with no initials following my name)

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 08:48 AM

Rod
02-13-2007, 08:52 AM
By your diagram, low left on the c/b is outside not inside english.

Rod

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> No Doctor Dave, do not shave off your beard, if you do, then no body will take you serious and listen to you any more.<hr /></blockquote>I think I'll cut it off anyway ... it's time for a change.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>We all know you can't be considered smart unless you have a beard.<hr /></blockquote>Why don't you grow one, then ... maybe it will work. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

bradb
02-13-2007, 09:14 AM
Byrne and Sigel have thier own interpretation of transfer and throw which are baffleling. One things for sure, I would trash can everything I know to play like Sigel played when he was on top.
I thought I was a pretty good snooker player until I played a pro and he beat me with a 40 spot and a beat up rack cue.
Of course we need knowledge of the game, it helps us become more rounded players but we all know where the bottom line is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Response to your cute snorky post. My advice and teaching should stand on its own. If it makes sense then go do it and see if it works. If it does, then listen to more, if it does not, then ignore what I write in the future. If you just blow away any thing new that comes along and discard anything contrary to what you now think you know, then your future advancement will be slow indeed sir. <font color="blue"> Gee, and I thought we were getting along so well! </font color>

So you are saying if I don't have a beard and a PhD behind my name you don't listen to me here? Name me the PhDís who have every gotten on the pro tour? Name me one who has ever run a rack? Don't be so impressed with titles; be impressed with the quality of the teaching, no matter who it comes from. <font color="blue"> This begining to sound familiar! Does the FL ring a bell? </font color>

Most bangers hit all shots jacked up; look around every room you go into. You do not beat deflection by jacking up but level cue at 3 or 9:00 does. <font color="blue"> Oh! I must have read you wrong.</font color> My point was if you draw low and level or jacked up there is almost no deflection. Most pros are drawing with a slight jack up and some are 2" up. <font color="blue"> 2" up from what? </font color>
Some are low and level. <font color="blue"> I was under the illusion there was no such thing as a 58" level cue on a pool table. Silly me, mine hits the rail making it elevate a bit. My bad. </font color> A pro can make any cue or any shot work. <font color="blue"> That must be great news for the ones I see miss. </font color> That is why the 9 ball pros hit the draw more than any other shot. <font color="blue"> Again, my bad. I thought they did it because it was the proper thing to do in most situations. Hey, I'm learning. </font color> The 3-c pros hit all running follows so they hit 3 or 9:00 level cues the most.

The most deflection occurs above center when a masse effect takes place and the cue is not level and is jacked up as most poor players do and they fail to hit exact center ball and a curve takes place. <font color="blue"> You are wealth of new info.... </font color>

I assumed from your post you were playing with a house cue with a screw on tip. I have seen a lot of custome cues for $2000 that played like dogs and deflected like a mother because they are too stiff or have an ivory ferrule. When they take the stiff shaft off and install a Z, 314, black dot or any of the many new high tech shafts out there today with soft thin ferrules the cue then plays correctly with low deflection. I don't use a custome cue. Mine is a production cue with a custome shaft.
So your cue is $2000 and in your eyes that makes it better than my lowly $900 cue. <font color="blue"> Never even said that. </font color> I would therefore assume in your mind that as well now makes you a superior player to me and more knowledgeable because you spent an extra thousand you did not need to this now makes you smart? Dude, you could have flow to Vegas for the weekend and got laid on that thou? <font color="blue">What makes you think I paid for my cue? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

I did not describe a single exotic shot, so I guess hitting outside of center for you is exotic? Good luck on advancing to an APA 2 level. I hope you get there. Then you will be able to play with the men finally. <font color="blue"> Sincere thanks, I have set that as a long term goal.</font color> Learn how to use English and it might happen one day. <font color="blue"> My German and French is better than my English. </font color> Thank you for your rude bowing to me. Instead I had hoped you might learn something new and simply be polite. Did I make a boo boo fau pau by not kissing your ring and tail for 500 posts before I actually said anything here of value or use? Do I have to have you toss holy water on me and christen me here before I can say anything your lordship? <font color="blue"> Religious discussions should really be held on the NPR side, but since you asked, "Bless You". </font color> I am not here to challenge your pecking order you have set up. I could care less about your little games you play here. <font color="blue"> Sex should also be handled in the NPR section. </font color>

Using English on a cue ball is not kinky; leave that to your water bed and your life size rubber doll girlfriend or your rubber ducky in your tub. <font color="blue"> Don't knock it til you try it. By the way, she polycarbonate, not rubber! That is a low blow! </font color>

The APA is the largest league and their ratings of players are widely known which is why I quoted it. They know a lot which is why they are the largest. <font color="blue"> They know a lot? I think your next few statements covers why they are the biggest and why I value your rating system so highly. </font color> They know most of their members are drunks and they write great drunk rules. They have a great drunk rating system which all the drunks defeat by cheating and sandbagging. No, I don't work for them, but 250,000 players seem to like them a lot. The people running it are millionaires, so I guess you could say, they know a lot as they make more money than you do? <font color="blue"> You mean my $5.25 an hour is less than you make? I am appalled. I'll seek a solution by getting the democrats to get me that raise I need to buy a $900 high tech cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif </font color>

If you want to know about this spin stuff as you said, then sir, find you a local qualified instructor and take regular lessons. He will tell you itís not called spin stuff but English, but, ah, the English don't call it that, its side or inside check. <font color="blue">You guys who have travelled so much and have picked up that international lingo have it all over me. Just to help me out, what do the Sunnis call it. It might win me my first game of 8 ball one day. Hey, a guy can dream... </font color> Then you will be dancing your whitey rock all over your new felt at home and smoking off of your rubber bumpers.
And when you try to be rude and disrespectful, do you usually sign off: <font color="blue"> Yes, but the reference to whitey is what I consider rather racist and my brothers and I will be keeping an eye on you. </font color>

Your respectfully and greatfully,

DeeMan
your humble servant... YOU MAKE 3 SPELLING AND GRAMATICAL ERRORS IN A 7 WORD SENTENCE? <font color="blue"> Sorry, I am the product of the American educational system and with that minimum wage job, I can't affords me a spelcheck thingamadoie....</font color>

It makes you look like a little pool prick <font color="blue">You peeked? </font color> with an attitude who canít spell and fluked out of the third grade. . <font color="blue"> Somebody talked, was it you Spiderman? </font color> I do not desire to fight with you or exchange rude cute digs with you. I just tried to show you something I knew. I did, and you go off on me. Once more, take it from the top and you may get it this time and off your high horse. <font color="blue"> My horse is indeeed high (16 hands) but I'm too old and fat to ride him much anymore. </font color>

Depending on the shot and where it is this will vary. You want to transfer English from the CB to the OB so the English on the OB is running into the pocket and hugging the rail and not running off the long rail and into the opposite pocket point which is causing your blip outs especially on tight pockets. <font color="blue"> I'll add this one to the archives. </font color> The diagram I put up you want left on the OB so you put low right on the CB. English reverses in almost all cases. Now if you took that shot and moved it over to the right long rail the OB English would be right and the CB English left. English does transfer to the OB but only on thick hits. <font color="blue"> Fred is running tests on this as we speak but we have to have more math data to chuckle out loud. </font color> The thinner you get the less it happens. <font color="blue"> I think you mean the less pronounced the effect but I'll but that.</font color> This is why the pros hit most of their cuts with running English because it eliminates the cling and throw in the shot so where they aim the shot pots. <font color="blue"> I thought even you guys who have ascended up the APA ladder to maybe a 4 would do this, but it's a Pro thing, huh? </font color> Understanding all of this will make any one a better player.
You will be shocked at home many people, players or teachers don't know what I just described. <font color="blue"> I am appropriately shocked! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color> Fran Crimi is a teacher and she said, she does not know this on this thread. Bob Byrne has said in writing that he does not believe you can transfer English from ball to ball. Mike Sigel wrote in Billiards Digest in his column there is no such thing as throw? <font color="blue"> Wanna play any of these folks a match? Fran, Mike and others may state things in certain ways to make points, or disagreeements over the "amount" of effect but I assure you they all know the application of english, or as I refer to it, that kinky spin stuff. </font color>
So if you only listen to the ones with the biggest titles, you do not always get the best advice. Even reading these top writers in our top pool magazine. <font color="blue"> I'll waste basket everything I have a read.....only your columns from now on. What magazine is that your advice appears in? </font color>
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Fella,

I hold no animosity for you. I just reply with my poor, southern grammer and try to add to the discussion here. I do, however, value those guys with beards and degrees as friends who deserve respect, no matter how many balls they can run. If you want to educate this poor player I don't hide. I'm the easiest player in Alabama to find and I do have a couple of bucks put away. I could be taken advantage of most any weekend. </font color>

DeeMan

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position.<hr /></blockquote>Avoid enlish only if you never want to improve. Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote> Personally, I think this is hog wash.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot."<hr /></blockquote> IMO, this is the only reason why using inside english seems to work easier. The fact is that the margin for error is increased ifyou contact the cushion first. I've said the following before, but I'd need video proof. You can either:

a) contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cue ball rebounds off the cushion,

or

b) you can contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball while the cueball is driving into the cushion. Virtually all the ranges in between have a good shot at making the balls.

a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.

Fred

bradb
02-13-2007, 10:23 AM
<font color="blue"> Fella,

I hold no animosity for you. I just reply with my poor, southern grammer and try to add to the discussion here. I do, however, value those guys with beards and degrees as friends who deserve respect, no matter how many balls they can run. If you want to educate this poor player I don't hide. I'm the easiest player in Alabama to find and I do have a couple of bucks put away. I could be taken advantage of most any weekend. </font color>

DeeMan

<hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like a challenge to me. Deemans got the guts, lets see some action from the other side!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
02-13-2007, 11:10 AM
Kinda quiet out there....

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 11:17 AM

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 11:25 AM

bradb
02-13-2007, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> I view this as a group of chimps, the head chimp lays down the challenge and all the rail bird chimps are going oooh oooh oooh and pounding their chests. The head chmip walks off going oooh oooh oooh...
<hr /></blockquote>

We're talking pool here not philosophy and yours is wanting. When you insult someone have the guts to back it up! You are obviously an intelligent person, you figure it out. You've said some things that are true and some that are wrong, Own up or put up. The table is the bottom line not the mouth in this game.

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position.<hr /></blockquote>Avoid enlish only if you never want to improve.<hr /></blockquote>Whether this advice is appropriate or not might depend on how solid the recipient's fundamentals are.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it.<hr /></blockquote>... but only when they need it. With good layout and good speed control, gobs might not be required ... "leaving angles" and using follow/draw might be enough.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Personally, I think this is hog wash.<hr /></blockquote>Personally, I agree with you.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot."<hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>IMO, this is the only reason why using inside english seems to work easier. The fact is that the margin for error is increased ifyou contact the cushion first. I've said the following before, but I'd need video proof. You can either:

a) contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cue ball rebounds off the cushion,

or

b) you can contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball while the cueball is driving into the cushion. Virtually all the ranges in between have a good shot at making the balls.

a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.<hr /></blockquote>Great examples. FYI, HSV 4.10-4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) show some of the effects in super-slow-motion.

Regards,
Dave

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 11:31 AM

Rich R.
02-13-2007, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> You are obviously an intelligent person, <hr /></blockquote>Don't bet on it bradb. It sounds like FL to me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BRussell
02-13-2007, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position.<hr /></blockquote>Avoid enlish only if you never want to improve. Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote><font color="blue">Right,but do they use it largely for making balls, or do they use it largely for playing position? Honestly, although I personally use some english on most shots, I'm pretty convinced by the arguments that on balance it adds more difficulty than advantages in shot-making, and that many good players probably over-use it.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote> Personally, I think this is hog wash.<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">I agree, and that seems to be the consensus of the group here, with a few exceptions.</font color>

[ QUOTE ]
3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot."<hr /></blockquote> IMO, this is the only reason why using inside english seems to work easier. The fact is that the margin for error is increased ifyou contact the cushion first. I've said the following before, but I'd need video proof. You can either:

a) contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cue ball rebounds off the cushion,

or

b) you can contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball while the cueball is driving into the cushion. Virtually all the ranges in between have a good shot at making the balls.

a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.

Fred <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Thanks for the excellent explanation. If I can try to put it in my own words, it seems like you're saying that you can increase your margin of error with inside english, because if you cut too thin the cue ball will still rebound off the rail and have a chance of making the object ball, and if you cut a bit thicker than that you're still OK because the cue ball will contact the object ball while it is has compressed the rail.

Still, my concern would be the fact that the cue ball has the potential to travel to the object ball differently, i.e., deflection/squirt and curve, which might negate any of the advantages you mention. So I still conclude that avoiding english (except where necessary for position, of course) seems the better strategy.

I'm not criticizing anyone else's views of this, I'm just trying to sort it out for myself.</font color>

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 11:50 AM

TimFXF
02-13-2007, 11:58 AM
I must say... this has been a very entertaining thread - in a Jerry Springer sort of way! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BRussell
02-13-2007, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>My wife rates my love making on a scale of 1 to 10 as a 2, but that does not matter because I have fun at it. She can't count to 10 any way, she is from Alabama. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> That's interesting, because I'd rate her lovemaking about a 6. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Prove anything I said was wrong, and I will admit it, balls in your court. As long as I only tell the truth, then I sleep at night like a baby. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Rangoonchild,

You sound an awful lot like a person we are all familiar with...

That aside, reasoned discourse, in my mind is that we all express our opinions and views. I say something. Fred says, "You are wrong and this is why." I make a counterargument or agree without calling Fred names or invoking jealous tags of "bearded and degreed" (which, by the way, I did not know was a bad thing).

I know Fred, he is a nice man and a very good pool player and understands the physics of this game better than I do as does Dave and a few others on here I have had the pleasure of meeting. However, I have met maybe 60 of the people on the CCB, played many and have had many watch me play. I even played a couple of them many times 25 and 30 years ago. I have no place to hide. I am no secret. Most on here are not clandestine names that pop up like some internet person who chatters with little girls. They will tell you who they are, where they are from, they are: REAL PEOPLE. I challenge you as you have attacked several of them with your "secret" identity like a drive by shooter after I only did part one of civil discourse and disagreed with your comment. So, give me a Dr. Dave or a Fran or a Fred anyday. They may not know everything but at least they have the guts to assume a real identity, their own, while you cower and snap from behind a faceless computer, safe in your ability to rant at their knowledge, be proved wrong and slink away just to reapear in another guise with more rants at a later date.

Did I challenge you to a game for money? Yes! I risk the money and my ego as I do not hide behind a new name each month. You would only risk your money. If I bail on you, everyone will know what I did. You don't show and play and you slither back to the "home". You, Sir, are a blowhard who could not be melted and poured on me for a game and I am not that good, except when I play customers like you. I'll do better than that, I'll fly halfway if you will and we will see what walks and what talks.

You called our disagreement a draw and that we should talk pool. That's exactly what most of us do here. Keep your secret or special knowledge, I'll play you without it. I really think the only thing special about you is the short bus you rode to school. Friendly enough for you now? Get lost. </font color>

DeeMan
apologies to all my friends here...as I should have ignored him in the first place... glad I wasn't mad on this one....

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 12:08 PM

BigRigTom
02-13-2007, 12:11 PM
Wow!
I couldn't have said that better myself and I am glad to hear someone point out those things about the anonymity!

Maybe this board would benefit if a more clear identity were required in order to post.
Most of this kind of ranting would be eliminated if we all knew who the culprit is.

Hey Deeman,
I was born in Ft. Payne, Alabama and we always said that there are only 2 kinds of people....Those from Alabama &amp; those whose wish they were!.
Role Tide! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
02-13-2007, 12:12 PM
Kid, I was referring to Deemans challenge, you didn't answer it. The man doesn't know you from Adam but he said he'd play you sight unseen, he didn't even specify what game. When you insult a respected player then its assumed you must be a good player yourself. So if you are, accept his challenge as a good player, or back off, and show some respect.

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 12:28 PM

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Read what I said, I do not have time for your Macho BS. Go challenge somebody you have a prayer to beat dude. This is not about if you can beat me, which you could not do in a thousand years, or if I could beat you, which would be a lock, its about learning a new shot which you resist. Ok, so take my two drills and go find out and learn something new which you are not going to do pounding on your chest going ooooh ooooh ooooh... The fact that I don't know you, means I can beat you. I know the 50 people who can beat me and you are not one of them.
And deeman, yes please, ignore me, go away so others can learn here if you refuse to. Make my day, ignore me please.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> It would seem a mortal lock like yourself would not turn down an opportunity to play a guy who would publicly challenge you to a real game, not banter and bluster. This, in fact, would be real money, not imagined like, for instance putting up web sites with dogs that play and expect a customer base, based on that bluster. Macho? Naw, just willing to expose what everyone else on here knows. You never show up, you have beat everyone and yet, you are not willing to supplement that social security check with some sure money against a chump like me.

You have "revelations" no one else knows but they are a "secret" except to the 100's you have converted to world champions. Yep, we are backward in Alabama but we know the smell of BS when it shows up. BY the way, you escaped Auburn without anyone remembering you. </font color>

DeeMan
I think I outed FL, any bets on that?

bradb
02-13-2007, 12:34 PM
Are you making this up as you go along?

I think you should back off now and apologize to this forum otherwise no one will reply to you. In fact I'm probably the last. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 12:35 PM

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 12:42 PM
<font color="blue"> Interpretation </font color>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> I did answer it, <font color="blue"> I cowered behind my reputation </font color> I do not have time for his macho BS, <font color="blue"> I am frightened like a little girl. </font color> and any one who would play any one sight unseen, is a fool. <font color="blue"> But I am praying this fool has not clocked my sorry game </font color> No time for fools. <font color="blue">I spend plenty with the biggest one of all. </font color> He is the one fanning this, not me. Focus here boys, this is not about playing each other, its about learning a new shot and finding out if it works or not, so try and stay on topic please. <font color="blue"> Let's change the subject so I can get out of my loud mouthed bluster </font color> I am from Alabama too, you all. <font color="blue"> But I couldn't compete and they were not dumb enough to support me </font color> Its just that you northern Bama boys, don't like us southern Bama boys cause we are better lookin and smarter than you all are. <font color="blue"> I was once in Montgomery, met Junior Goff, he challenged me and I scurried my sorry butt north, now Atlanta suffers. </font color> Show nuff, it's the truth. <font color="blue"> As clear as my mind can make it... </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 12:52 PM

Fran Crimi
02-13-2007, 12:59 PM
You're the only one other than myself who noted that it's a rail first shot. However, I didn't see you mention anything about the angle the cb takes off the cushion due to the effect of inside english. I think that's the most significant aspect of the shot and that that it's the hit on the way off of the rail that's significant.

However, I won't argue scientific proof regarding the hit as the cb compresses into the rail if you have it. Do you?

Fran

BRussell
02-13-2007, 12:59 PM
What has happened to my thread?

So yeah, about that english...

bsmutz
02-13-2007, 01:00 PM
Careful, Deeman. I'm beginning to think that the Rangoon Kid may actually be an APA 7. I mean, he sort of inferred that he could make the shots he's describing and then he said that only an APA 7 could make them (which pretty much excludes the Pros). So I'd think twice about challenging him if I were you. I've been playing for just about 3 years now and I'm an APA 7, so I think I know what I'm talking about. It's obvious that he is a fount of pool knowledge. I only wish I had a pool table here at work so I could practice his shots right now. I feel my overall game could go up 3-4 balls if only I could do what he describes. Of course, it's going to be totally dependent on whether I can get my hands on one of those new high technology low deflection super duper wonder shafts.
Anybody know where I can find a list of the APA 7s? I want to find out who is number 51 and where I am on the list. Who knows, there may be only 27 ahead of me!

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 01:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> However, I didn't see you mention anything about the angle the cb takes off the cushion due to the effect of inside english. I think that's the most significant aspect of the shot and that that it's the hit on the way off of the rail that's significant.<hr /></blockquote> I agree. And maybe I should have said it that way somehow. That is, when the cueball leaves the cushion, if it's hitting the object ball, then the cueball comes straight across the table. If when the cueball leaves the cushion, it's no longer hitting the object ball, then it travels with natural/running english happily running around the table.


[ QUOTE ]
However, I won't argue scientific proof regarding the hit as the cb compresses into the rail if you have it. Do you?

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>I don't have the video evidence, only speculation.

Fred

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.<hr /></blockquote>Great examples. FYI, HSV 4.10-4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) show some of the effects in super-slow-motion.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Do you have any like the path of b)? This is a standard shot. I know how I adjust my aim for it, but I have no idea what really happens. It can't be that the object ball is hit first, but I speculate that after the cueball hits the cushion and then the object ball, the object ball leaves the cueball before the cueball has fully interacted its spin with the cushion.

Fred

bradb
02-13-2007, 01:25 PM
Kid, why don't you fess up and tell us the truth....You couldn't play Deeman even if you wanted to...they won't let you out! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.<hr /></blockquote>Great examples. FYI, HSV 4.10-4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) show some of the effects in super-slow-motion.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Do you have any like the path of b)? This is a standard shot. I know how I adjust my aim for it, but I have no idea what really happens. It can't be that the object ball is hit first, but I speculate that after the cueball hits the cushion and then the object ball, the object ball leaves the cueball before the cueball has fully interacted its spin with the cushion.<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

I don't have this, but great idea. I've added it to my list of things to shoot. I hope to do a long session with the camera within the next few months.

Thanks,
Dave

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it.<hr /></blockquote>... but only when they need it. With good layout and good speed control, gobs might not be required ... "leaving angles" and using follow/draw might be enough. <hr /></blockquote>I think this is one of the biggest mistaken pieces of advice or sayings that people like to repeat on the internet. Leaving angles and using follow/draw may be enough only if you don't want to find out easier ways. I can't even begin to explain how happy and wonderful this game has been after taking a lesson with arguably one of our games greatest teachers (Jerry Brieseth). And he absolutely advocated using english to make things easier. And it does. Some of these standard patterns, the use of english makes things easier, more understandable, more repeatable, and more fun. And they're the same everyday pattern that virtually every professional player uses. To make a change to the pattern, you adjust your english. One variable. And sometimes, that change puts you in "gob" mode.

Maybe it's better left to players who have solid fundamentals, I don't know. But I know one thing... when people say to avoid english or that staying in the vertical center is enough,... that tells me that either the person saying it is trying to be nice or they're not having as much fun in this game as they can be.

Maybe they and you need an advanced lesson. It might change your thinking.

Fred

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote derangeeroonkid:</font><hr>
Nobody's going to make a move until Chippeaw Fred checks in and they know they are backed by his scientific facts. Never forget that every engineer in the country said when the Wright brothers flew at Kitty Hawk it could not be done, it was impossible and there fore they were frauds.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>I know this will fall on your deaf douchebag ears, but it was the engineers that said it was possible. Who else but the engineers understood Bernoulli's theories?

And it was the scientists who said the world was round, that it wasn't the center of the universe. They call that science "astronomy."

And it was the scientists and engineers who explained why and how the bumblebee could fly.

Please take your false anectdotes elsewhere. These sayings are just lies and fabrication to try to devalue the science community. They're as bad as bar rules.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote FastRangarooKid:</font><hr>I know the 50 people who can beat me and you are not one of them. <hr /></blockquote> Eric. can beat you. LOLOLOLOLOLLLOLOLLOOOOLOLLOLLLOOL....

Fred &lt;~~~ oops... split my pants from laughing so hard

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 01:53 PM

bradb
02-13-2007, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Kid, why don't you fess up and tell us the truth....You couldn't play Deeman even if you wanted to...they won't let you out!
RK SAY: oK, YOU GOT ME, i AM IN THE JOINT and I am posting on the library computer. I was arrested for impersonating a pool pro. They gave me 3 to 5
Later dudes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Kid, I wasn't talking about the Joint! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 02:05 PM

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr>
.
Enthuiast say:<hr /></blockquote>

And it all comes full circle. This is exactly what got you all screwed up with Eric. years ago. That dumb tag under my name is part of this web bulletin board. Unfreakinbelievable.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote the super slow one:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>And it was the scientists and engineers who explained why and how the bumblebee could fly<hr /></blockquote>
RK SAY, BS, SHOW a bumblee to any engineer and he will tell you that it is impossible for it to get off the ground or fly. <hr /></blockquote>Just when I thought you really couldn't be any dumber, you prove me wrong.

Fred

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 02:23 PM

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 02:28 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DeeMan

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it.<hr /></blockquote>... but only when they need it. With good layout and good speed control, gobs might not be required ... "leaving angles" and using follow/draw might be enough. <hr /></blockquote>I think this is one of the biggest mistaken pieces of advice or sayings that people like to repeat on the internet. Leaving angles and using follow/draw may be enough only if you don't want to find out easier ways. I can't even begin to explain how happy and wonderful this game has been after taking a lesson with arguably one of our games greatest teachers (Jerry Brieseth). And he absolutely advocated using english to make things easier. And it does. Some of these standard patterns, the use of english makes things easier, more understandable, more repeatable, and more fun. And they're the same everyday pattern that virtually every professional player uses. To make a change to the pattern, you adjust your english. One variable. And sometimes, that change puts you in "gob" mode.

Maybe it's better left to players who have solid fundamentals, I don't know. But I know one thing... when people say to avoid english or that staying in the vertical center is enough,... that tells me that either the person saying it is trying to be nice or they're not having as much fun in this game as they can be.

Maybe they and you need an advanced lesson. It might change your thinking.<hr /></blockquote>I just want to be clearer with what I mean. If "leaving an angle and using follow/draw" is adequate for a certain shot, IMHO there is no reason to use English for that shot. I also believe that great players (especially in snooker, and also in pool) are able to play relatively English-free in many games. My main point is: Why introduce possible uncertainty due to squirt, swerve, and throw if English is not required for a shot?

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thank you for the advice to take more lessons. I think everybody can benefit from this, regardless of one's level of play. I have taken lessons before, and they have always been beneficial. I have also read countless books on pool. They have also been useful (even if they do get some things wrong at times).

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Am I dumb, yes, any pool pro not in the top 15 who tries to make a living at this game is dumb.

I wish I could be smart like you. When my beard grows out I will be.

I saw this:
T It is not a myth! They have done years and years of research and they have come to a conclusion, they cannot fly. But that doesn't make sense because we see bees fly. So they have tried to figure out how they fly. Scientists don't just come up with random conclusions to questions with no statistics.

http://www.twis.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Life_sci;action=display;num=10250559 40

I live my life with this thought, I know nothing. The more I learn the more I realize how little I actually know. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Somewhat like your pool knowledge, your knowledge of and belief in Urban Rumors is boundless.

Fred,

I loved the "Eric beat you line". One of my all time favorites..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Have now learned what certifiable lunatic really means. </font color>

DeeMan
FL is his own worse advertisement.....

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 02:39 PM

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 02:46 PM

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 02:53 PM
I didn't promise to ignore you. I should, but it's sorta like my business to irritate the real nuts that drive by here on occasion without the guts to post their real identity and "out" them, then belittle them. Sorry, but those bearded guys assigned me to it. Can't buck the system you know.

DeeMan
Is it raining in Atlanta yet?

Cornerman
02-13-2007, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I just want to be clearer with what I mean. If "leaving an angle and using follow/draw" is adequate for a certain shot, IMHO there is no reason to use English for that shot. <hr /></blockquote> This is probably where I should say, "I give up." I don't know at what point people started saying this, but it's just poor advice. English isn't bad. English is good.

[ QUOTE ]
I also believe that great players (especially in snooker, and also in pool) are able to play relatively English-free in many games. <hr /></blockquote> They might be able to, but they don't. Why? Because the game is made easier with the proper use of english.

Recent anectdote: I have a few friends that went to Springfield, MA to watch the pros play that Texas Hold-Em Skins game. Archer, Schmidt, Breedlove, Morris, J. Lee, Barretta, and a few others. They (my friends) were all excited as they had never watched pros play more than just a passing moment. All, and I mean all of them had the same comments to me: They make this game look so easy. I can't believe how much english they use. And they use English on every shot.

I think if people just throw away this "avoid english" idea, they actually might find out that adding english is a good thing, not a bad thing. And they can make this game easier as opposed to thumping around when they don't get the exact correct angle.

As I said, my recent mini-lesson with Jerry was just another of those a-ha! moments that made life so much easier in this game.

[ QUOTE ]
My main point is: Why introduce possible uncertainty due to squirt, swerve, and throw if English is not required for a shot?<hr /></blockquote> By saying that the introduction of english is a cause for uncertainty puts a false impression to beginners. How about this: "by shooting this shot, all you have to do is vary the english to be more precise in your patterns than you ever thought possible." Now, wouldn't you want to give your students tools to make things as precise as possible?

If you've never said that to a student, they're missing good, standard, not-new, not revolutionary, and not uncertain information. And this isn't just you, Dr. Dave. It's a whole slew of well-meaning internet folks who may not realize that this type of advice does much more harm than good.

And Dave, you do need to take advanced lessons. I'm not saying you haven't taken lessons. But you need to take advanced lessons. We all could use advanced lessons, and I'm glad I take every opportunity to work with all the teachers that I can. Jerry Brieseth, Scott Lee (yes, Scott, I was paying attention), Randy G. Nick Varner, Grady Matthews.... It's obvious that as a student of the game as well as an educator, you may get and provide more benefit if you get advanced lessons. Not the basic lessons, but the advanced lessons. Real advanced lessons.

Fred

bradb
02-13-2007, 02:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> We'll dude, in rangoon, the nut house is the prison, they just toss us all in the same dungeon together and let us sort it all out. They also toss in the ho's too which helps us pass the time. We have a 6x12 snooker table in the main exercise area.
free pool, free food, 3 squares, free room and rent, fee sex, hell I aint never had it so good. I may never leave. This place is better than Vegas in July. They have two kinds of weather here. Hot as hell and hotter than hell. Then there is the rainy season where you can drown standing up. The monkey stew on Wednesday really rocks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

You seem to know a lot about that place, can you get a day pass to play Deeman? They can stand by with a net should you bolt! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 03:09 PM

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I just want to be clearer with what I mean. If "leaving an angle and using follow/draw" is adequate for a certain shot, IMHO there is no reason to use English for that shot. <hr /></blockquote> This is probably where I should say, "I give up." I don't know at what point people started saying this, but it's just poor advice. English isn't bad. English is good.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I also believe that great players (especially in snooker, and also in pool) are able to play relatively English-free in many games. <hr /></blockquote> They might be able to, but they don't. Why? Because the game is made easier with the proper use of english.

Recent anectdote: I have a few friends that went to Springfield, MA to watch the pros play that Texas Hold-Em Skins game. Archer, Schmidt, Breedlove, Morris, J. Lee, Barretta, and a few others. They (my friends) were all excited as they had never watched pros play more than just a passing moment. All, and I mean all of them had the same comments to me: They make this game look so easy. I can't believe how much english they use. And they use English on every shot.

I think if people just throw away this "avoid english" idea, they actually might find out that adding english is a good thing, not a bad thing. And they can make this game easier as opposed to thumping around when they don't get the exact correct angle.

As I said, my recent mini-lesson with Jerry was just another of those a-ha! moments that made life so much easier in this game.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>My main point is: Why introduce possible uncertainty due to squirt, swerve, and throw if English is not required for a shot?<hr /></blockquote> By saying that the introduction of english is a cause for uncertainty puts a false impression to beginners. How about this: "by shooting this shot, all you have to do is vary the english to be more precise in your patterns than you ever thought possible." Now, wouldn't you want to give your students tools to make things as precise as possible?

If you've never said that to a student, they're missing good, standard, not-new, not revolutionary, and not uncertain information. And this isn't just you, Dr. Dave. It's a whole slew of well-meaning internet folks who may not realize that this type of advice does much more harm than good.

And Dave, you do need to take advanced lessons. I'm not saying you haven't taken lessons. But you need to take advanced lessons. We all could use advanced lessons, and I'm glad I take every opportunity to work with all the teachers that I can. Jerry Brieseth, Scott Lee (yes, Scott, I was paying attention), Randy G. Nick Varner, Grady Matthews.... It's obvious that as a student of the game as well as an educator, you may get and provide more benefit if you get advanced lessons. Not the basic lessons, but the advanced lessons. Real advanced lessons.<hr /></blockquote>
Thank you for your responses. I don't agree with everything (e.g., the message of your anecdote that most pros use English on most shots), but I respect your opinion.

I do agree that I (and you and others) could benefit from additional advanced lessons. I think most people can also benefit from reading more books and instructional articles, watching more instructional DVDs, watching more top players, practicing intelligently (e.g., with well designed drills), playing more in competition, thinking more about the game, working on their mental focus and concentration, etc.

Dave

bradb
02-13-2007, 03:23 PM
Quote the Kid: (I spot him 40 points and play pocket pool one handed jack up.)



Pocket pool is about the only game you'll get in there. No you gotta come out for a real game..

Deeman...Watch this guy! he might bite you on the ankle in your backswing, remember Tyson!!! Better get your shots too!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 03:47 PM
I think Fred does make a good point, you won't advance your skill a lot if you avoid using english. I always say I use too much myself but, in truth, I do have reasons for it when I do and that's about every shot. It may be just to change direction "slighly" off a cushion to avoid not getting exactly where I want but I may have considered it a personal adjustment I just made each shot and that I was too lazy to get the exact position on the shot before but, thinking about it, there's not often "perfect" position as we make many, many small adjustments just because of an extra half inch of roll or a little less rebound off a cushion than we expected. Perhaps telling player he/she is not ready for english is restricting them unfairly. After all, we all had to learn it sometime and maybe it's never too early in the process. You are still going to miss balls in the learning process, you may as well learn from it.

DeeMan
Fred is right /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gifIMHO
Is this another V-8 moment?

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I think Fred does make a good point, you won't advance your skill a lot if you avoid using english. I always say I use too much myself but, in truth, I do have reasons for it when I do and that's about every shot. It may be just to change direction "slighly" off a cushion to avoid not getting exactly where I want but I may have considered it a personal adjustment I just made each shot and that I was too lazy to get the exact position on the shot before but, thinking about it, there's not often "perfect" position as we make many, many small adjustments just because of an extra half inch of roll or a little less rebound off a cushion than we expected. Perhaps telling player he/she is not ready for english is restricting them unfairly. After all, we all had to learn it sometime and maybe it's never too early in the process. You are still going to miss balls in the learning process, you may as well learn from it.<hr /></blockquote>I think that if a person has a consistent and accurate stroke and good aim, then they are ready for English and advanced position play and strategy. If that is the case, then I agree completely with your statement above. If you don't agree, then I respectfully disagree.

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
02-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Sounds reasonable to me. You can't see me Dr. Dave but I'm making the Vulcan 30 degree peace sign.

DeeMan

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Sounds reasonable to me. You can't see me Dr. Dave but I'm making the Vulcan 30 degree peace sign.<hr /></blockquote>Have you used your trusty 30-60-90 drafting triangle to calibrate the angle of your fingers accurately? If so, then I anoint you as a Master Yen Vulcan Instructor. That will be $600.

Catch you later,
Dave

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 04:33 PM

bsmutz
02-13-2007, 05:13 PM
Okay, given that now most everyone agrees that English is beneficial... For someone just starting out, wouldn't it make sense to make sure they know how to hit center ball first, since there are a few shots (like shooting off the rail) where not hitting center ball could be detrimental? Also not understanding squirt and throw could cause a beginner problems that they probably wouldn't be able to reason out on their own. So I would guess that using side spin should be discouraged until one is able to pot balls reasonably well with a center ball hit. (I hate to bring up the APA again, but here goes.) Say you have a teammate that is ranked a 2 or a 3 and you need to coach them on a shot. Would you tell them to hit deep two tips to the left and two tips to the bottom to draw the cue ball back up table of the left long cushion to get shape on the 3? I typically leave English out unless it's to get a little distance from the next ball. Then I would say try to hit it a little off from center to whichever direction is correct.

dr_dave
02-13-2007, 05:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Okay, given that now most everyone agrees that English is beneficial... For someone just starting out, wouldn't it make sense to make sure they know how to hit center ball first, since there are a few shots (like shooting off the rail) where not hitting center ball could be detrimental? Also not understanding squirt and throw could cause a beginner problems that they probably wouldn't be able to reason out on their own. So I would guess that using side spin should be discouraged until one is able to pot balls reasonably well with a center ball hit. (I hate to bring up the APA again, but here goes.) Say you have a teammate that is ranked a 2 or a 3 and you need to coach them on a shot. Would you tell them to hit deep two tips to the left and two tips to the bottom to draw the cue ball back up table of the left long cushion to get shape on the 3? I typically leave English out unless it's to get a little distance from the next ball. Then I would say try to hit it a little off from center to whichever direction is correct. <hr /></blockquote>Good summary. I think that is good advice.

Dave

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 06:04 PM

pooltchr
02-13-2007, 06:53 PM
I teach beginning students how to use vertical spin to understand what the cue ball is going to do after it hits the object ball. Only after they understand that concept do I start to show them how side spin will determine what the cue ball does after it contacts a rail. Helping them understand that vertical spin determines the path off the object ball, and side spin moves the cue ball off a rail, and that they are two separate functions is how they begin to learn total cue ball control. They are two different things to be used for completely different reasons. It's rare that any kind of cue ball spin will help the object ball find the pocket, but critical to helping the cue ball to the correct position on the table at the end of the shot.

Deeman...do you think someone on this board can tell us all how to make a 10 rail kick shot???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

bradb
02-13-2007, 07:37 PM
The phantom is unmasked! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Rich R.
02-13-2007, 07:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> I know the 50 people who can beat me and you are not one of them. <hr /></blockquote>
Let me guess, the 50 people you say can beat you are:
1 Ralf Souquet
2 Corey Deuel
3 Mike Davis
4 Johnny Archer
5 Mika Immonen
6 Shawn Putnam
7 John Schmidt
8 Gabe Owen
9 Charlie Williams
10 Thomas Engert
11 Fabio Petroni
12 Rob Saez
13 Thorsten Hohman
14 Troy Frank
15 Charles Bryant
16 Tony Robles
17 Dennis Orcollo
18 Marcus Chamat
19 Luc Salvas
20 Jeremy Jones
21 Tony Crosby
22 Jose Parica
23 Gandy Valle
24 Ronnie Wiseman
25 Lee Chenman
26 Evgeny Stalev
27 Timothy Hall
28 Rodney Morris
29 Matt Krah
30 Steve Lillis
31 Joey Korsiak
32 Kim Davenport
33 Richard Broumpton
34 Chris Szuter
35 Tony Chohan
36 Sparky Ferrell
37 Raj Hundal
38 Neil Fujiwara
39 Santos Sambajon
40 C. J. Wiley
41 Frank Alvarez
42 Jose Garcia
43 Corey Harper
44 Joe Tucker
45 Goh Takami
46 David Krolick
47 Jonathan Demet
48 Bill Ferguson
49 Dennis Hatch
50 Danny Hewitt

For anyone who doesn't know, I have just listed the top 50 players from the UPA. If you can't guess who number 51 is, it is Larry Guninger. How he is ranked that high, without ever winning a match is beyond me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Obviously, this rangoonkid is just another name being used by Fast Larry. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SPetty
02-13-2007, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Have you used your trusty 30-60-90 drafting triangle to calibrate the angle of your fingers accurately? <hr /></blockquote>hahaha - I did this months ago!

Scott Lee
02-13-2007, 10:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> If they insist they want them early, or they want me to teach physics, which I also refuse to do, I send them to Scott Lee who is a great teacher and loves to take my overflow from me. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes Larry, but remember, I ALWAYS send them back to you, to learn the 17 kinds of draw! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Truth be told Larry, I have NEVER even met anyone who took a lesson from you (or wanted to). Oh wait a minute, there was White Wolf, but he admitted finally that you were looney tunes too! I've worked with Deeman though, and I could certainly facilitate a meeting between you two. He's not too far from Duluth!

Scott Lee

PS...This is about enough of this thread, isn't it?

rangoonkid
02-13-2007, 10:53 PM

Scott Lee
02-13-2007, 11:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Who is this larry guy, dude, <hr /></blockquote>

Dude...Look in a mirror, and you'll find him. Funny, Dee never mentioned your referral. Hey Dee, is that true? If so, I'll certainly send you money. Did you want that in yen or pesos? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

cushioncrawler
02-14-2007, 01:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>1. Avoid english for making shots because it complicates the shot; use it mostly if you need it for position.<hr /></blockquote>Avoid enlish only if you never want to improve.<hr /></blockquote>Whether this advice is appropriate or not might depend on how solid the recipient's fundamentals are.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Every good player uses english. The best use gobs of it.<hr /></blockquote>... but only when they need it. With good layout and good speed control, gobs might not be required ... "leaving angles" and using follow/draw might be enough.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>2. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail because it imparts a spin on the object ball that spins it from the jaws into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Personally, I think this is hog wash.<hr /></blockquote>Personally, I agree with you.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>3. Inside english could help pocket a ball on the rail if you hit the rail first and use the english to rebound into the ball (in this context it could be called running english). I've also seen this used for the "impossible cut shot."<hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>IMO, this is the only reason why using inside english seems to work easier. The fact is that the margin for error is increased ifyou contact the cushion first. I've said the following before, but I'd need video proof. You can either:

a) contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cue ball rebounds off the cushion,

or

b) you can contact the cushion first and then hit the object ball while the cueball is driving into the cushion. Virtually all the ranges in between have a good shot at making the balls.

a) might look like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbpJ3PPkw3UbpJ3UcYs3kPkw3kbgq4kaym4kTNe4uAQS@

and

b) might look like this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3Abgx3PJXb3Ubgx3UcYt3kJXb3kboi3kFlj4kbHU1kBnl4uA IU@

Understanding the subtle difference in a) vs. b) gives you all options. IMO a) has the higher margin of error, which is important the farther the ball gets from the pocket. Either way, you're contacting the cushion first. a) is a short kick. b) is an overcut adjusting for throw.<hr /></blockquote>Great examples. FYI, HSV 4.10-4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) show some of the effects in super-slow-motion. Regards, Dave <hr /></blockquote> Dr Dave -- I dont go along with what Fred sez. Your videos indicate very strongly that running-side off the cushion seems to give the objectball a better angle -- ie better than check-side off the cushion, ie closer to parallel to the cushion.

There arent a lot of examples shown, but a close look at the gaps and margins involved in some of the shots indicates to me that running side is a clear winner.

Allso, the videos indicate clearly that the objectball often gets a good dose of "pocket-side" that would help it to drop when it gets to the pocket (Fred duznt go along with this).

Anyhow, i dont think that any of this is very important, what i mean iz, if u need running or check or stun or top or draw to get good pozzy for your next shot, then just do it. madMac.

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 06:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I don't agree with everything (e.g., the message of your anecdote that most pros use English on most shots), but I respect your opinion.<hr /></blockquote>

Let's make this very clear Dave. I'm talking 9-ball. But even in 8-ball, the english use is a significant number. You are the one with the opinion, and you're spreading it. I am providing you the facts since your opinion is contradicted by facts. I want to spread those FACTS.

I go to professional events like crazy. If you have, you'd rethink your opinion. As I said in my anecdote, from people who did nothing but watch, they themselves saw that every professional they witness was using english on almost every shot if not every shot. You can't call observation of english use an "opinion."

It's been many years since the first time I saw a professional event and watched with specific intentions on what pros did for english use. It can't be that only the events I've been to, the professionals decide to use as much english as they do, but then they magically stop using it when I'm not there.

As I said, in one tournament, the report back (not by me, but by someone who is an amateur shooter who never watches the professionals) is that every professional used english on almost all their shots. Unless you want to be called a blatant liar, you could never say that at one tournament every professional used vertical center on almost all their shots.

In addition to taking advanced lessons, you need to watch real players in action. People say things that they don't really do. That includes many instructors, but most of them have reasons why they say certain things. But on the internet, everytime someone says one of these we'll-meaning pieces of advice, I have to jump in to report what really happens out there. Don't people deserve to know what good players do? The "ideal" is wrong. Reality trumps well-meaning advice.

And if I'm wrong, there's enough people on the internet who can go to a professional tournament with the specific intentions of watching the english use. And very few people go to tournaments to watch the english. Even the poster who posted the Allison video didn't realize that she used some kind of english on at least three of her shots. And that's 8-ball. Just imagine what happens in 9-ball.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Okay, given that now most everyone agrees that English is beneficial... For someone just starting out, wouldn't it make sense to make sure they know how to hit center ball first, since there are a few shots (like shooting off the rail) where not hitting center ball could be detrimental? <hr /></blockquote>
Sure. And if they have any skill, they should go on to learning english. If they can't pocket balls with english, they need to learn. Plain and simple. If they decide not to learn how to pocket balls with english and they decide to always stay near the vertical center, they will limit themselves. And this should be obivous. If you're only limiting yourself to a strip of the cueball 75% of its height, and one tip width down the center. There's a lot more ball to hit, which give you a lot more options. Some of those options make that particular shot easier (position-wise and/or shotmaking-wise).

[ QUOTE ]
Also not understanding squirt and throw could cause a beginner problems that they probably wouldn't be able to reason out on their own. So I would guess that using side spin should be discouraged until one is able to pot balls reasonably well with a center ball hit. (I hate to bring up the APA again, but here goes.) <hr /></blockquote>Sure, and people say this all the time. At what point should they get past this idea? And this being the interenet, how many posters do we have that are APA2's or APA 3s? For them, sure they need to stick in the center. But, the vast majority of people who love this game so much that they'd be foolish enough to post on an internet message board, I have to believe they're better than that.

It's time to use english and join in on the fun. And if you (general) can't make balls using english, this is why reading about english use on these boards is important. Reading about avoiding it will never help you get there. Is that fair to say?

[ QUOTE ]
Say you have a teammate that is ranked a 2 or a 3 and you need to coach them on a shot.<hr /></blockquote>Do people always want to use this example of why english should be avoided? Do I need to really spell out why this isn't a proper situation for the discussion? Or is everyone on the avoid english side talking about APA2's, players that historically can barely hold a stick. Hitting with center ball is generally a recipe for disaster already.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 06:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Dr Dave -- I dont go along with what Fred sez. Your videos indicate very strongly that running-side off the cushion seems to give the objectball a better angle -- ie better than check-side off the cushion, ie closer to parallel to the cushion.<hr /></blockquote> Apparently, you misunderstood my post. Both of my diagrams are using running english. All of Dr. Dave's videos show shot b), the one that the cueball travels perpendicular to the cushion. That is, we agree on the use of inside-english on this shot. I detailed the benefits and the difference in cueball position.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mac:</font><hr>Allso, the videos indicate clearly that the objectball often gets a good dose of "pocket-side" that would help it to drop when it gets to the pocket (Fred duznt go along with this). <hr /></blockquote>I dont' go along with it, and thanks to Dr. Dave's videos, it shows you (and everyone who thought so) are clearly wrong. Check HSV 4.10. The left-hand inside spin did not transfer to the object ball. If anything, a hair of left-hand spin was transferred to the object ball (due to the cut angle of the cueball coming off the cushion). And we all know that's the opposite of get-in (helping) english. We all know that, right? For this shot, get-in english has to be right-hand spin on the object ball (clockwise from the top).

So, an important conclusion to put this issue to bed: As HSV 4.10 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-10.htm) indicates, no get-in english is transferred to the object ball. The hugging action on this shot is due only to the hit of the cueball.

Fred

Deeman3
02-14-2007, 06:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>quote]Have you used your trusty 30-60-90 drafting triangle to calibrate the angle of your fingers accurately? If so, then I anoint you as a Master Yen Vulcan Instructor. That will be $600.

Catch you later,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Unfortunately,

I'm the old guy who already knew where to cue ball was going but I love the concept fer them youngins.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

DeeMan
maybe I've been making the mental peace sign for years,,best to you Dave...you do nice work...

Deeman3
02-14-2007, 07:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Deeman...do you think someone on this board can tell us all how to make a 10 rail kick shot???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<font color="blue">Absolutely no doubt!
</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DeeMan

Deeman3
02-14-2007, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rangoonkid:</font><hr> Who is this larry guy, dude, <hr /></blockquote>

Dude...Look in a mirror, and you'll find him. Funny, Dee never mentioned your referral. Hey Dee, is that true? If so, I'll certainly send you money. Did you want that in yen or pesos? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott:

I've been to 49 countries and never crossed paths with a Rangoonian, to my knowledge and you know I would never get within 300 feet of F/L. No, I believe we hooked up because I knew you could help me regain enough of my game to take on clowns like this...but it's so funny, they never show up, do they? You do have my permission to call this clown out for me anytime, anyplace (this side of Rangoon)but, alas, I've already tried and he gave me a government case for the nits....
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
DeeMan

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Have you used your trusty 30-60-90 drafting triangle to calibrate the angle of your fingers accurately? <hr /></blockquote>hahaha - I did this months ago! <hr /></blockquote>Great! You too are now anointed as a Zen Peace Master. Live long and prosper, and be scratch-free and awesome at caroms, break-out shots, and position control.

Dave

PS: To progress to the next level, you must get permanent tattoos added to your hand for precise calibration markers per this previous posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=).

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>FYI, HSV 4.10-4.16 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) show some of the effects in super-slow-motion.<hr /></blockquote> Dr Dave -- I dont go along with what Fred sez. Your videos indicate very strongly that running-side off the cushion seems to give the objectball a better angle -- ie better than check-side off the cushion, ie closer to parallel to the cushion. There arent a lot of examples shown, but a close look at the gaps and margins involved in some of the shots indicates to me that running side is a clear winner. <hr /></blockquote>There is certainly a wider margin for error with rail-first running English.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Allso, the videos indicate clearly that the objectball often gets a good dose of "pocket-side" that would help it to drop when it gets to the pocket (Fred duznt go along with this).<hr /></blockquote>I'm still with Fred on this one. There is a very small spin transfer effect here, but it is far from a "good dose." I think the effect is insignificant; although, I haven't measured or analyzed it accurately.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Anyhow, i dont think that any of this is very important, what i mean iz, if u need running or check or stun or top or draw to get good pozzy for your next shot, then just do it. madMac.<hr /></blockquote>I think most people (including Fred and me) would agree with you here.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 09:31 AM
Fred,

I admit that I haven't seen as many live tournaments as you have; although, I've watched lots on TV (pretty much every one aired). Also, there are lots of top-notch players in my area that I often have the pleasure of watching live. I also play with some top-notch players on occasion. I still don't totally agree with your characterization of English usage. Just to be clear, would you say "most pros use English on most shots?" What percentage would you guess for shots with English? I would also like to hear from some of the other experienced players and instructors out there.

I will certainly try to be much more aware of this the next time I watch top players, and the next time I play.

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I don't agree with everything (e.g., the message of your anecdote that most pros use English on most shots), but I respect your opinion.<hr /></blockquote>

Let's make this very clear Dave. I'm talking 9-ball. But even in 8-ball, the english use is a significant number. You are the one with the opinion, and you're spreading it. I am providing you the facts since your opinion is contradicted by facts. I want to spread those FACTS.

I go to professional events like crazy. If you have, you'd rethink your opinion. As I said in my anecdote, from people who did nothing but watch, they themselves saw that every professional they witness was using english on almost every shot if not every shot. You can't call observation of english use an "opinion."

It's been many years since the first time I saw a professional event and watched with specific intentions on what pros did for english use. It can't be that only the events I've been to, the professionals decide to use as much english as they do, but then they magically stop using it when I'm not there.

As I said, in one tournament, the report back (not by me, but by someone who is an amateur shooter who never watches the professionals) is that every professional used english on almost all their shots. Unless you want to be called a blatant liar, you could never say that at one tournament every professional used vertical center on almost all their shots.

In addition to taking advanced lessons, you need to watch real players in action. People say things that they don't really do. That includes many instructors, but most of them have reasons why they say certain things. But on the internet, everytime someone says one of these we'll-meaning pieces of advice, I have to jump in to report what really happens out there. Don't people deserve to know what good players do? The "ideal" is wrong. Reality trumps well-meaning advice.

And if I'm wrong, there's enough people on the internet who can go to a professional tournament with the specific intentions of watching the english use. And very few people go to tournaments to watch the english. Even the poster who posted the Allison video didn't realize that she used some kind of english on at least three of her shots. And that's 8-ball. Just imagine what happens in 9-ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
02-14-2007, 10:06 AM
I agree with Fred. having been in the arena for a couple of decades with both men and women, I can say with confidence that sidespin is heavily used by the pros on tour. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high. I've been there and done it and seen it. If you can't believe me, having been in the middle of it, who can you believe?

I think Buddy Hall said it best to me while we were talking one day about what it takes to be a great player. He said: "You have to play all over the ball."

(For those who don't understand...he meant cue tip to cue ball.)

Fran

BRussell
02-14-2007, 10:38 AM
I have a related question to the original one.

One of the basic principles that Fran and others have pointed out is that when you go rail first on this shot with inside/running english, the ball will tend to go straight across, almost as if no english was used at all (because the cue ball hits the object ball after it hits the rail).

Is that a fair assessment?

My question is what you do if you really want to use that english for position, as in the diagram below:

http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AbWd3BFtj2PMIK2kMIK3kbWK4kHQE@

I guess the answer is that you just have to hit the object ball first rather than the rail first in that shot, but if the object ball is truly on the rail, aren't you likely to miss the shot?

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 11:18 AM
Fran and others,

FYI, I've started a new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=) to better focus in on this topic.

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I agree with Fred. having been in the arena for a couple of decades with both men and women, I can say with confidence that sidespin is heavily used by the pros on tour. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high. I've been there and done it and seen it. If you can't believe me, having been in the middle of it, who can you believe?

I think Buddy Hall said it best to me while we were talking one day about what it takes to be a great player. He said: "You have to play all over the ball."

(For those who don't understand...he meant cue tip to cue ball.)

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Jal
02-14-2007, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Dr Dave -- I dont go along with what Fred sez. Your videos indicate very strongly that running-side off the cushion seems to give the objectball a better angle -- ie better than check-side off the cushion, ie closer to parallel to the cushion.<hr /></blockquote> Apparently, you misunderstood my post. Both of my diagrams are using running english. All of Dr. Dave's videos show shot b), the one that the cueball travels perpendicular to the cushion. That is, we agree on the use of inside-english on this shot. I detailed the benefits and the difference in cueball position.<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

You've made a good point about the plausible benefit of inside (running) on your type (a) shots (cueball well on the way out of the cushion at OB impact). Maybe that's what the original poster's advisor's meant. At any rate, it's an important distinction which I didn't fully appreciate.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote mac:</font><hr>Allso, the videos indicate clearly that the objectball often gets a good dose of "pocket-side" that would help it to drop when it gets to the pocket (Fred duznt go along with this). <hr /></blockquote>I dont' go along with it, and thanks to Dr. Dave's videos, it shows you (and everyone who thought so) are clearly wrong. Check HSV 4.10. The left-hand inside spin did not transfer to the object ball. If anything, a hair of left-hand spin was transferred to the object ball (due to the cut angle of the cueball coming off the cushion). And we all know that's the opposite of get-in (helping) english. We all know that, right? For this shot, get-in english has to be right-hand spin on the object ball (clockwise from the top).

So, an important conclusion to put this issue to bed: As HSV 4.10 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-10.htm) indicates, no get-in english is transferred to the object ball. The hugging action on this shot is due only to the hit of the cueball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>I don't think "helping english" is hogwash. We all know that if you have to cut one into the facing of a side pocket, having the right spin on the object ball can make or break it. The same applies, I think, if you need to "blast" one down the rail into a corner (or are dealing with stingy pockets). Clearly, the spin will help some, though depending on the cut angle, speed and top/bottom the cueball may have, using no english or even outside might get you more of the appropriate spin.

The particular video example you cited here is not really applicable, in my opinion. The cueball is exiting the cushion and the once inside english is now outside. Very little spin is imparted to the OB because the new cut angle and spin now oppose each other, ie, the cueball nearly rolls off the object ball. Things are different for the type (b) shots, I think (but I'm keeping my ears open).

As far as using english in general, I have a video of a straight pool match between between Steve Mizerak and Johnny Archer. The commentators, Bill Staton and Nick Varner, explicitly discuss this, making the point that both Steve and Nick use centerball (vertical axis) most of the time, and that players who "spin the ball" tend to be less consistent. Of course, this is anecdotal and 14.1 was the game. But I don't think the idea of being very judicious with its usage is thus all that heretical. I know you know infinitly more about higher level playing than I do, but these are some pretty good sources too. Just a thought.

Jim

Fran Crimi
02-14-2007, 12:47 PM
Good question. Actually, you can still drive the cb in the direction of your diagram, still hitting the ball rail first by using low inside. Try it. It's not only interesting but it's one of my favorite shots. You do have to watch out for a scratch in the cross corner, though. That can easily happen if you overdo the low inside.

In fact, in some shots where it's a dead scratch cross corner, I may use a bit more low inside to bring the cb directly to the short rail (bottom rail) intentionally to avoid the scratch.

Fran

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> I have a related question to the original one.

One of the basic principles that Fran and others have pointed out is that when you go rail first on this shot with inside/running english, the ball will tend to go straight across, almost as if no english was used at all (because the cue ball hits the object ball after it hits the rail).

Is that a fair assessment?<hr /></blockquote>It's half a fair assessment. I've answered the two position paths based on how the cueball leaves the cushion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>My question is what you do if you really want to use that english for position, as in the diagram below:

http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AbWd3BFtj2PMIK2kMIK3kbWK4kHQE@

I guess the answer is that you just have to hit the object ball first rather than the rail first in that shot, but if the object ball is truly on the rail, aren't you likely to miss the shot? <hr /></blockquote>AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaargh!!!!

I answered this exact question and gave the exact diagram now in two different threads.

Please read my descriptions. It might be tough to understand, so it simply needs a bit of reading. It's much easier to explain on a table. When you see it, you'll say how easy that seems and how much it makes sense.

It was scenario b) in my other two threads.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 01:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> I don't think "helping english" is hogwash. We all know that if you have to cut one into the facing of a side pocket, having the right spin on the object ball can make or break it. The same applies, I think, if you need to "blast" one down the rail into a corner (or are dealing with stingy pockets). Clearly, the spin will help some, though depending on the cut angle, speed and top/bottom the cueball may have, using no english or even outside might get you more of the appropriate spin.

The particular video example you cited here is not really applicable, in my opinion. The cueball is exiting the cushion and the once inside english is now outside. Very little spin is imparted to the OB because the new cut angle and spin now oppose each other, ie, the cueball nearly rolls off the object ball. Things are different for the type (b) shots, I think (but I'm keeping my ears open).
<hr /></blockquote>The reasoning you give as to why you think that video is not applicable is exactly the proof about "helping english." I wonder if you thought about it a bit longer, you'll see why that is. You need to do a logic deduction.

What is helping english on this shot?
What english does the object ball need to have?
What english do people think creates this helping english?
Does this english create that helping english and still make the ball?

I think we've pretty much nailed the idea to the coffin that the cueball must hit the cushion first. Does anyone disagree with this? Next question: what english does the object ball have? The video shows what it has and why (you've already cited what the object ball english is and why it is). And what english the object ball is exactly opposite of what others think it's supposed to be.

If you're proposing that the type b) gets this helping english, I'd like to see it. Type a) is the one with the largest margin of error, and it clearly doesn't have the helping english. Type b)has the smaller margin of error. I believe it's Typs a) that people have thought for years that the english helped them, since the object ball can be seen hugging the rail. Type b), too far away from the pocket and you'll miss. Some help.

Fred &lt;~~~ seems pretty simple

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> The commentators, Bill Staton and Nick Varner, explicitly discuss this, making the point that both Steve and Nick use centerball (vertical axis) most of the time<hr /></blockquote>THis is yet more proof that you need to believe your eyes, not your ears. Nick Varner is one of my often used examples of a professional who uses "all the way to the edge" english. And he certainly uses it more often than vertical center.

Fred

Jal
02-14-2007, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> I don't think "helping english" is hogwash. We all know that if you have to cut one into the facing of a side pocket, having the right spin on the object ball can make or break it. The same applies, I think, if you need to "blast" one down the rail into a corner (or are dealing with stingy pockets). Clearly, the spin will help some, though depending on the cut angle, speed and top/bottom the cueball may have, using no english or even outside might get you more of the appropriate spin.

The particular video example you cited here is not really applicable, in my opinion. The cueball is exiting the cushion and the once inside english is now outside. Very little spin is imparted to the OB because the new cut angle and spin now oppose each other, ie, the cueball nearly rolls off the object ball. Things are different for the type (b) shots, I think (but I'm keeping my ears open).
<hr /></blockquote>The reasoning you give as to why you think that video is not applicable is exactly the proof about "helping english." I wonder if you thought about it a bit longer, you'll see why that is. You need to do a logic deduction.

What is helping english on this shot?
What english does the object ball need to have?
What english do people think creates this helping english?
Does this english create that helping english and still make the ball?<hr /></blockquote>This is your type (a) shot, and I'm not sure you could get much in the way of counter-clockwise spin (helping english) on the object ball at this cut angle. I think we probably agree here.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>...If you're proposing that the type b) gets this helping english, I'd like to see it. Type a) is the one with the largest margin of error, and it clearly doesn't have the helping english. Type b)has the smaller margin of error. I believe it's Typs a) that people have thought for years that the english helped them, since the object ball can be seen hugging the rail. Type b), too far away from the pocket and you'll miss. Some help.

Fred &lt;~~~ seems pretty simple <hr /></blockquote>I'd like to see some proof that type (a) does have the largest margin, but it is plausible. Type (b) is the one that should (I believe) get the helping english, but I'll have search through Dr. Dave's videos for an example. It would be an amazing discovery if it didn't happen.

Jim

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> I'd like to see some proof that type (a) does have the largest margin, but it is plausible. Type (b) is the one that should (I believe) get the helping english, but I'll have search through Dr. Dave's videos for an example. It would be an amazing discovery if it didn't happen.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I asked Dave a few pages ago, and he said he doesn't have examples of that shot Type (b). I'd like to see it.

Fred

BRussell
02-14-2007, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaargh!!!!

I answered this exact question and gave the exact diagram now in two different threads.

Please read my descriptions. It might be tough to understand, so it simply needs a bit of reading. It's much easier to explain on a table. When you see it, you'll say how easy that seems and how much it makes sense.

It was scenario b) in my other two threads.

Fred <hr /></blockquote> OK. I didn't link up your post to the question of position, but now I see the connection. (And you have to admit the signal-to-noise ratio in some of these threads has been pretty low. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

I'll probably get another AAAAaaaaargggghh from you, but I'm still not sure I get it, so I tried it a bunch of times on a table with an object ball two diamonds from the pocket. I find that I can make it either by hitting it a) what seems to be rail first, in which case the cue ball comes straight across, or b) what seems to be ball first, in which case the english "takes" and the cue ball comes off at a sharp angle. But I have no idea whether I'm executing your b) pattern (rail first with compression into the cushion) in there somewhere. I don't know how to tell the difference between your b) and just the regular ball first shot.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you say the english takes with your b) scenario and the cue ball comes off the rail at an angle. If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks.

Fran Crimi
02-14-2007, 02:37 PM
Before you go getting all apologetic to Fred, he did admit that he was merely speculating that the ball was being struck first in the latter example. There is no positive proof that the object ball was struck first. Perhaps he struck the shot softly or with some backspin as well.

In my post to you, I answered your question quite clearly and believe me, with a whole lot of confidence. I really wish someone around here would take me seriously. Does it have anything to do with my being a girl? I really hope not.

Fran

BRussell
02-14-2007, 02:58 PM
Fran, thanks for your suggestion; it was perfectly clear to me, but Fred's wasn't, which is why I responded to him. I don't deny having sexist (and racist and every other -ist) attitudes, as I think everyone probably does, but consider also the fact that Fred was annoyed that I had ignored his earlier posts too, despite his distinctly male name. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Jal
02-14-2007, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>...Furthermore, I don't understand why you say the english takes with your b) scenario and the cue ball comes off the rail at an angle. If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give it a shot. Cushion contact extends for something like .006 seconds or so, while ball/ball collisions only for .0002 seconds (or so). There's plenty of time for the cueball to start compressing the cushion, send the object ball on its way, and then continue whatever dance it's performing with the cushion, in that order.

Jim

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 04:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Before you go getting all apologetic to Fred, he did admit that he was merely speculating that the ball was being struck first in the latter example.<hr /></blockquote>
Just to be clear, in the latter example that I gave, I think I'm still hitting the cushion first. But I think that it's so close to the object ball that the object gets out of the way before the cueball fully leaves the cushion.

The contact in my example b) I think is the same as if there were no cushion there. You'd have to slightly over-cut the ball because of throw. So, the cushion would still get hit first.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2007, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give it a shot. Cushion contact extends for something like .006 seconds or so, while ball/ball collisions only for .0002 seconds (or so). There's plenty of time for the cueball to start compressing the cushion, send the object ball on its way, and then continue whatever dance it's performing with the cushion, in that order.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I think this is really it. It's plausible. It's been my working theory. But, I want a video. Then I might click off another "I can die a happy man" list item.

So, the two scenarios are:

a)Cushion first, short kicking the object ball

<ul type="square"> 1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. start rebound from the cushion
4. kiss the object ball while leaving the cushion
5. travel straight across the table [/list]

and

b) Cushion first, overcutting the object ball (compensating for collision induced throw)

<ul type="square">1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. hit the object ball while driving into the cushion
4. object ball leaves
5. cueball continues to drive into the cushion
6. cueball rebounds off the cushion with whatever english it has.
[/list]
Fred

Fran Crimi
02-14-2007, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Before you go getting all apologetic to Fred, he did admit that he was merely speculating that the ball was being struck first in the latter example.<hr /></blockquote>
Just to be clear, in the latter example that I gave, I think I'm still hitting the cushion first. But I think that it's so close to the object ball that the object gets out of the way before the cueball fully leaves the cushion.

The contact in my example b) I think is the same as if there were no cushion there. You'd have to slightly over-cut the ball because of throw. So, the cushion would still get hit first.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Okay, got it. Yeah, that's a pretty interesting theory in that it's not exactly a hit on the way in but it's not exactly a hit on the way out, yet there is a cushion there.

I'm still favoring the hit only on the way out theory, but I think the other is a very creative thought and it is possible.

Fran

Jal
02-14-2007, 06:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give it a shot. Cushion contact extends for something like .006 seconds or so, while ball/ball collisions only for .0002 seconds (or so). There's plenty of time for the cueball to start compressing the cushion, send the object ball on its way, and then continue whatever dance it's performing with the cushion, in that order.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I think this is really it. It's plausible. It's been my working theory. But, I want a video. Then I might click off another "I can die a happy man" list item.

So, the two scenarios are:

a)Cushion first, short kicking the object ball

<ul type="square"> 1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. start rebound from the cushion
4. kiss the object ball while leaving the cushion
5. travel straight across the table [/list]

and

b) Cushion first, overcutting the object ball (compensating for collision induced throw)

<ul type="square">1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. hit the object ball while driving into the cushion
4. object ball leaves
5. cueball continues to drive into the cushion
6. cueball rebounds off the cushion with whatever english it has.
[/list]
Fred <hr /></blockquote>Fred, for what it's worth, I completely agree with both scenarios. Robert Byrne, perhaps with the assist of Bob Jewett, describes the second one, (b), as the way to play these shots (positioning aside and he includes (a) as an alternative). I'm not drawing any conclusions as to which method, a or b, is the most reliable for potting the ball, but given the relative contact times, it would be hard to imagine (b) not working as you describe it.

Jim

Rich R.
02-14-2007, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Deeman...do you think someone on this board can tell us all how to make a 10 rail kick shot???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, you have it all wrong. I wouldn't call it a "kick shot". For it to be a "kick shot", he would have to make a ball. I've seen the video and he just hits the cue ball 10 rails and he never makes a "fookin" ball. I have no idea what good this is???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 10:23 AM
Fred,

Please consider posting what you think are ball-park figures for English usage percentages. I am curious to know what you think is typical. Please reply here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I don't agree with everything (e.g., the message of your anecdote that most pros use English on most shots), but I respect your opinion.<hr /></blockquote>

Let's make this very clear Dave. I'm talking 9-ball. But even in 8-ball, the english use is a significant number. You are the one with the opinion, and you're spreading it. I am providing you the facts since your opinion is contradicted by facts. I want to spread those FACTS.

I go to professional events like crazy. If you have, you'd rethink your opinion. As I said in my anecdote, from people who did nothing but watch, they themselves saw that every professional they witness was using english on almost every shot if not every shot. You can't call observation of english use an "opinion."

It's been many years since the first time I saw a professional event and watched with specific intentions on what pros did for english use. It can't be that only the events I've been to, the professionals decide to use as much english as they do, but then they magically stop using it when I'm not there.

As I said, in one tournament, the report back (not by me, but by someone who is an amateur shooter who never watches the professionals) is that every professional used english on almost all their shots. Unless you want to be called a blatant liar, you could never say that at one tournament every professional used vertical center on almost all their shots.

In addition to taking advanced lessons, you need to watch real players in action. People say things that they don't really do. That includes many instructors, but most of them have reasons why they say certain things. But on the internet, everytime someone says one of these we'll-meaning pieces of advice, I have to jump in to report what really happens out there. Don't people deserve to know what good players do? The "ideal" is wrong. Reality trumps well-meaning advice.

And if I'm wrong, there's enough people on the internet who can go to a professional tournament with the specific intentions of watching the english use. And very few people go to tournaments to watch the english. Even the poster who posted the Allison video didn't realize that she used some kind of english on at least three of her shots. And that's 8-ball. Just imagine what happens in 9-ball.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give it a shot. Cushion contact extends for something like .006 seconds or so, while ball/ball collisions only for .0002 seconds (or so). There's plenty of time for the cueball to start compressing the cushion, send the object ball on its way, and then continue whatever dance it's performing with the cushion, in that order.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I think this is really it. It's plausible. It's been my working theory. But, I want a video. Then I might click off another "I can die a happy man" list item.

So, the two scenarios are:

a)Cushion first, short kicking the object ball

<ul type="square"> 1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. start rebound from the cushion
4. kiss the object ball while leaving the cushion
5. travel straight across the table [/list]

and

b) Cushion first, overcutting the object ball (compensating for collision induced throw)

<ul type="square">1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. hit the object ball while driving into the cushion
4. object ball leaves
5. cueball continues to drive into the cushion
6. cueball rebounds off the cushion with whatever english it has.
[/list]<hr /></blockquote>
I'll try to capture all of this during my next high-speed-video shoot to help you find eternal peace.

Regards,
Dave

joeblow
02-15-2007, 11:39 AM

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr> First, Doctor Dave, nice to get to know ya, I am very surprised, you are a wonderful person.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr>How does it feel to be clean shaven, kind of nakid? My beard is doing fine, all 2 days of it.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I didn't shave it off yet after all. My girlfriend has veto power, and she thinks I look sexier with the beard ... so it stays.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr>Here is what I see, all of you are deep into paralysis by alalysis. You can't do anything until it's proved by Dr Dave or by Chappeaw Fred and have Scientific confirmation of that. You have to know that the ball hits the rail and comes off in .020 and the Ob comes off in .080, then you are fine.<hr /></blockquote>I don't see it that way. Some people need to understand why something is true before they can truly accept it and be confident. I don't see this as "analysis paralysis" ... I see it as a "desire to improve." Now, I agree with you that detailed numbers are not important ... but principles are.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr>Dudes, you don't gotta no nuttin to shove a ball into a pocket. Knowing all of this just screws you up. Stop it now.<hr /></blockquote>Again, different strokes for different folks.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr>Just go shoot pool and find these things out naturally on your own. Its a feel repetative game where you build memory strands which repeat for you. No thought or knowledge are required to do that.<hr /></blockquote>See the links under "mental aspects" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) for my thoughts on this.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr>So I have set you free, go now and be one with the shot.<hr /></blockquote>I also set you free from endless and boring repetitive trial-and-error practice. Seek knowledge and it will set you free.

Regards,
Dave

docholliday
02-15-2007, 03:41 PM

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 03:55 PM
Doc,

Thanks for the message. I appreciate your brutal honesty. Since you have labeled me as an "analysis paralysis" salesman, I think you deserve some labels in return. How about:

"don't think ... just drink" salesman
"touchie feeler"
"knowledge hater"

Again, different strokes for different folks. You are right ... we seem pretty different in our world outlook. I still hope we could get along and enjoy some beers and games of pool if we meet some day. I'm sure we could.

Regards,
Dave (the other Doc)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote docholliday:</font><hr> We'll Doc, we got a problem, my name is Doc too, and I also have a beard and a PHD. I like you a lot dude, really do. You are a really nice guy. I would love to meet you. But you and I must war. Civilized war. You are on the North Pole and I on the South. There is not getting together here as we are too far apart. So I shall respect and admire your talents and your opinions even though you don't have no clue and you are wrong. You of course to that for every one any way which is what I admire about you. Yo Doc, maybe you can teach me some of dat couth.

You see Zen set me free of you guys years ago. Now I am just one with the shot and do not need you. Your explanations are worthless. I do not want to control my swing or even now know anything about it since my basics are perfect. I just see, feel, do, pot, pick up the loot and try and get out the door to my get away caddy.

I don't think about driving my caddy, I am rippin along i-85 driving in da hammer lane one handed, drinking a johnny walker blue out of a kerr jar, chawin on a snickers bar, listening to buffett on the tape and holding on to the Jack Russell that is hanging out the window with his ears flapping and flirting with the blond ho in the lexus next to me. I don't think about driving, I just see do. Same in pool. I do not direct how I walk, or breathe, I just let my cpu handle it all, same in pool. Doc, here is the bad news, you sell paralysis by alaysis and don't realize it. You do not help people, you in fact ruin them from ever being a good player. No offense please. The first time I read Koehlers book I damn near starved. I could not make a friggen ball for 2 weeks. That is what you guys do to us.

Damn I wish I did not like you and you were not such a nice guy. It would be a lot easier for me if you were an ass hole like Jewie or Byrne.

Doc Holliday By the way, they did a hypnosis regression and I was him in my former life, which explains why I am meanier than a rattle snake. Souther man, well educated, a doctor, phd, like to drink, gamble, am a sportin man, and take no she-hit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
05-30-2007, 05:15 PM
Fred and Jim,

FYI, I just posted a bunch of high-speed video clips that illustrate all of this. See the new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=252130&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> If it's contacting the rail before the object ball, it seems to me that it should still come straight across, compression into the rail or no. I don't want you to keel over from exasperation or anything, but perhaps you could explain that a bit further. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>I'll give it a shot. Cushion contact extends for something like .006 seconds or so, while ball/ball collisions only for .0002 seconds (or so). There's plenty of time for the cueball to start compressing the cushion, send the object ball on its way, and then continue whatever dance it's performing with the cushion, in that order.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I think this is really it. It's plausible. It's been my working theory. But, I want a video. Then I might click off another "I can die a happy man" list item.

So, the two scenarios are:

a)Cushion first, short kicking the object ball

<ul type="square"> 1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. start rebound from the cushion
4. kiss the object ball while leaving the cushion
5. travel straight across the table [/list]

and

b) Cushion first, overcutting the object ball (compensating for collision induced throw)

<ul type="square">1. hit the cushion
2. drive into the cushion
3. hit the object ball while driving into the cushion
4. object ball leaves
5. cueball continues to drive into the cushion
6. cueball rebounds off the cushion with whatever english it has.
[/list]
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Jal
05-30-2007, 05:34 PM
Thank you once again Dr. Dave (and for your latest proofs which I've read). I'm looking forward to viewing them.

Jim