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View Full Version : percentage English usage for top players



dr_dave
02-14-2007, 11:17 AM
from a previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=244655):
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I agree with Fred. having been in the arena for a couple of decades with both men and women, I can say with confidence that sidespin is heavily used by the pros on tour. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high.<hr /></blockquote>I think both you and Fred are assuming my view is more extreme than it actually is. I know that English is an important part of the game at a high (and even intermediate) level. But I still contend the following:<ul type="square"> some people (at all levels) over-use English (i.e., use it for shot sequences where there are better alternatives).
a player probably shouldn't use English if his or her stroke fundamentals are not solid (consistent and accurate tip placement and aim).
a player should be cautious of using English if he or she is not good at compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw (either consciously or subconsciously).
most beginner and some intermediate players will be more consistent, accurate, and successful with less (rather than more) English usage.[/list]
Also, I think I still disagree with the percentages you guys are implying. That's why I wanted you guys to take a rough guess at the numbers (e.g., 50%, 75%, 90%, 99%???). Here are my guesses for the percentage of shots where sidespin is used:

pro 9-ball: 75%
pro 8-ball: 40%
pro snooker: 10%

I know it is reckless of me to throw numbers out there, but I wanted to be the first so others would feel more willing. I would love to scientifically monitor 1000's of matches to get more accurate numbers, but that would take too long. I'm happy just to see what different people think.

Thank you for your contributions,
Dave

Deeman3
02-14-2007, 12:08 PM
Just my guess:

9 Ball - 80 - 85%

8 Ball - 65-70%

Snooker - 25%

Deeman

Fran Crimi
02-14-2007, 12:37 PM
Wouldn't it make sense that if you're going to cut and paste my post to a new thread, that you should cut and paste the whole thing rather than just a portion of it, since my entire post is nowhere to be found in this thread?

I think you left out a very important piece of my post which relates to my experience of actually playing on the pro tour with both the men and women pros for a couple of decades.

Thanks for our contributions? You're kidding, right?

(Kick me, Fred.)

Fran

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Wouldn't it make sense that if you're going to cut and paste my post to a new thread, that you should cut and paste the whole thing rather than just a portion of it, since my entire post is nowhere to be found in this thread?<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I did provide a link to your full posting in the previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244655) in my original message so people could easily find the other entire thread. Here is a quote from the first line of my posting:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>from a previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244655)<hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I think you left out a very important piece of my post which is relates to my experience of actually playing on the pro tour with both the men and women pros for a couple of decades.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, I meant no disrespect. I just wanted to start the new thread with as little information as possible so people could contribute what they think are approximate percentages for each game. If people want all of the background information, they can follow the links provided. My goal was to focus the discussion and debate, because that other thread was getting out of control.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Thanks for our contributions? You're kidding, right?

(Kick me, Fred.)<hr /></blockquote>I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I honestly do appreciate all of the contributions you and Fred make to this forum. I'm sorry you apparently interpreted my statement to mean something else.

Nothing but good intensions here,
Dave

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Just my guess:

9 Ball - 80 - 85%

8 Ball - 65-70%

Snooker - 25%

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks!!! This is what I had in mind when I started this thread. I want to see what everybody thinks with approximate numbers.

Regards,
Dave

Tom_In_Cincy
02-14-2007, 01:40 PM
Not counting the breaks... I've seen pros put "side" on almost every shot.. so, my % guessing would be even higher.

With the introduction of the ProCup (aka measle cue ball) the %'s are even higher than the past, because you couldn't see the spin unless you were very close to the table.

I've been to a few Pro events and even officiated some. I've seen the Pros very close up. They put side on almost everything.

9 ball 95%
8 ball 90%
Never seen Pro Snooker players can't comment.

Jal
02-14-2007, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>...Thanks for our contributions? You're kidding, right?

(Kick me, Fred.)<hr /></blockquote>I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I honestly do appreciate all of the contributions you and Fred make to this forum. I'm sorry you apparently interpreted my statement to mean something else.

Nothing but good intensions here,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, your self-control is an example for us all. Too bad it's lost on some.

Jim

cushioncrawler
02-14-2007, 02:45 PM
Re snooker, i regularly played with and against a few players that were or had been the Ozzy Champ (snooker). All of them told me that they allways hit the vertical center of the qball for all shots. From the sidelines, to me, it looked az if they used a bit of intentional sidespin on at least some shots, which is why i asked, and i was allways surprized at their answers, it made me convinced that sitting at a low level on the sideline givz a spectator an optical illuzion. But, despite what they said, i am sure that they are happy to use side on some shots when there is little chance of missing. I think that each of them (4 of them) would have answered "1%". madMac.

dr_dave
02-14-2007, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>...Thanks for our contributions? You're kidding, right?

(Kick me, Fred.)<hr /></blockquote>I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I honestly do appreciate all of the contributions you and Fred make to this forum. I'm sorry you apparently interpreted my statement to mean something else.

Nothing but good intentions here,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, your self-control is an example for us all. Too bad it's lost on some.<hr /></blockquote>
Jal,

Thank you for the support.

Regards,
Dave

bradb
02-14-2007, 03:54 PM
Hey Max, I thought I would throw in my snooker experience.

Actually I found that you need side in snooker quite a bit especially in safety play. This helps to over come the slow nap. So if you gotta go 3 rails an snuggle up behind the brown it helps your "touch" by allowing you to take some of the pace off the ball.

It looks like players are striking the ball hard but its all consistant stroke and I think the same principle applies for regular potting and use of side, top/bottom as it is needed in pool.

Also there's fewer shots available in snooker then pool such as steep down the rail shots, so if the pots not there run and hide. I think all and all when you factor in that, the engish is very similar to pool. but I would not venture to guess how much less than pool.

bradb
02-14-2007, 04:03 PM
Ok I'll guess:


9 Ball - 80 - 85%

8 Ball - 65-70%

Snooker - 40- 55%

Brad.

cushioncrawler
02-14-2007, 04:49 PM
Brad -- Snooker is so difficult on a standard (12') table. Any 12' table is difficult, but many have eezy corner pockets, ie wider than the standard templates (but center pockets are allmost never eezyr than the standard center templates). The top players tend to play on tight tables. And, when they do get to play on an eezy table, chances are that the lighting and balls and cloth etc are not ideal, and the top players are scared of mooving away from the vertical center of the qball.

Actually, good tables arent good anyhow, koz, often new cloths are put on just before the tournament, and a new cloth is soooo slippery, if u uze side the squirt is too great to judge. And, the squirt etc changes day by day while the tournament progresses, as the cloth "wears in", hence, the players are allways behind the 8-ball. Yes, the vertical center of the qball iz looking better and better. Thats why my snooker mates won the top prize in Ozz.

Anyhow, there are lots of balls to choose from and lots of pockets, so why uze side -- but its a bit different if u (top players) want to get a 147 i guess.

Re tight pockets, what most people dont know is that the snooker tables in top tournaments in England have ultra tight pockets. The width is as per the width-template, but the undercut is close to zero, ie they ignore the standard undercut-template, koz the players are just too good (and the games too boring, ie one miss and the frames over). madMac.

bradb
02-14-2007, 05:35 PM
I know all about the tight pockets in England Max, All our top Canadian players always go over to England early to adjust. Some never survive over there its a tough environment for outsiders. Thorburn was ridiculed as a mechanic instead of a talented player because thats how he adjusted his game. The good news is they iron their tables for fast play.

Thorburn used to play here in Vancouver and we got all the stories from him. Also Brady Gollan, Jimmy Wych, and the Bear brothers played out of here. Jimmy Bear just ran 147 last year here and it was on a local English table. I've played that table and its tough as hell but you adjust. The position play is still the same, you have to use side if you intend to get a run.Your potting percentage goes down but thats the game. I've watched these guys and I can tell you they leave the center a lot. John Bear is a really good player with the soft touch side, its his trademark..

As I mentioned safety play is also where you see a lot of side.

I play with a ex Canadian snooker pro, Bob Horman and he especially likes to soft stroke with bottom side to hold on the black. He ran a century on me and I saw that shot a lot.

I should'nt have guessed on % it could be a bit lower.

cushioncrawler
02-14-2007, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I know all about the tight pockets in England Max, All our top Canadian players always go over to England early to adjust. Some never survive over there its a tough environment for outsiders. Thorburn was ridiculed as a mechanic instead of a talented player because thats how he adjusted his game. The good news is they iron their tables for fast play.

Thorburn used to play here in Vancouver and we got all the stories from him. Also Brady Gollan, Jimmy Wych, and the Bear brothers played out of here. Jimmy Bear just ran 147 last year here and it was on a local English table. I've played that table and its tough as hell but you adjust. The position play is still the same, you have to use side if you intend to get a run.Your potting percentage goes down but thats the game. I've watched these guys and I can tell you they leave the center a lot. John Bear is a really good player with the soft touch side, its his trademark..

As I mentioned safety play is also where you see a lot of side.

I play with a ex Canadian snooker pro, Bob Horman and he especially likes to soft stroke with bottom side to hold on the black. He ran a century on me and I saw that shot a lot. I should'nt have guessed on % it could be a bit lower. <hr /></blockquote> Brad -- I just remembered Willie Thorne, i watched him in Melbourne, he allwayz hits a bit off center, or a lot off center, allwayz, never vertical center as far as i could see. And, he was called Mr Maximum.

I remember when i was a kid and had just learnt to use side a bit, i went throo a phase where i used side for every shot, lots of it, dead straight pots, the lot, all ranges. I sure learnt to "feel" the line, and it was fun at the time, and the other players were amazed, but my game eventually stalled, and i went back to center. madMac.

bradb
02-14-2007, 06:22 PM
quote] Max -- I just remembered Willie Thorne, i watched him in Melbourne, he allwayz hits a bit off center, or a lot off center, allwayz, never vertical center as far as i could see. And, he was called Mr Maximum.

I remember when i was a kid and had just learnt to use side a bit, i went throo a phase where i used side for every shot, lots of it, dead straight pots, the lot, all ranges. I sure learnt to "feel" the line, and it was fun at the time, and the other players were amazed, but my game eventually stalled, and i went back to center. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

I hear ya, I did exactly the same thing especially since I came up from the states where they stole "English" from the Brits. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I liked to dance the cue all over the table back then, But when I switched to the top snooker room here i began losing promptly! I soon dropped a lot of the side and stayed vertical and got a respectable game back.

I will say though that for me almost every safety shot required some type of running side. Of course I played safety a lot in that league especially against bear who spotted me 50. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How about 40% factoring in the safety play? including shots to nothing?

cushioncrawler
02-14-2007, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> ....I will say though that for me almost every safety shot required some type of running side. Of course I played safety a lot in that league especially against bear who spotted me 50. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How about 40% factoring in the safety play? including shots to nothing? <hr /></blockquote> For sure the top Ozz snooker players are happy to uze side for cushion shots (kicks?) and safetys, especially carom safetys. And, of course, the spin side of the ledger starts of at one-zip with the first shot of every frame, koz they all uze some running side off the pack. And, they all love to screw back with spin when too straight on the black (on its spot) to get pozzy on yellow (on its spot), just look at Ding's 147 video. So, yes, perhaps a true count would show say 5%. madMac.

Qtec
02-14-2007, 10:10 PM
Oh yeah, Mr Maximum Man. Willie only won 1 tournament in his entire Pro career! It just goes to show that busting the balls open and starting a new frame if the Max is not on, is not good training!

You cannot keep comparing pool to snooker. Its an easy mistake to make, I did it myself, but with the help of prominent CCB members, ie Fran, Fred, Bob, etc, I have seen the light! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
You certainly cannot compare frozen railball shots.

There are certainly good things to be brought over from snooker to pool but they are entirely 2 different games .There are shots on a pool table that you should deliberately play for, while on a snooker table having the same shot would mean end of the break.



Qtec

cushioncrawler
02-15-2007, 12:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Oh yeah, Mr Maximum Man. Willie only won 1 tournament in his entire Pro career! It just goes to show that busting the balls open and starting a new frame if the Max is not on, is not good training!

You cannot keep comparing pool to snooker. Its an easy mistake to make, I did it myself, but with the help of prominent CCB members, ie Fran, Fred, Bob, etc, I have seen the light! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
You certainly cannot compare frozen railball shots.

There are certainly good things to be brought over from snooker to pool but they are entirely 2 different games .There are shots on a pool table that you should deliberately play for, while on a snooker table having the same shot would mean end of the break. Qtec<hr /></blockquote>Yeah, Willie woz a billiard player firstly, then of course took on snooker, so he didnt do too bad. I saw him make a 135 without hitting the qball on the vertical center once. He reached the final and got beaten by Higgins. Willie had a heap of $$$$$ on Higgins to win the tournament -- Hmmmmmm.

Yeah, i guess that K55's or whatever aint much like 12' flat cushions.

Me, i have never played a game on a proper pool table, but last year i hit about a dozen shots on one, potting a dead straight ball, uzing Colins pivot point method. Who knows, this year i might even hit a ball onto a cushion. Anyhow, surely this givz me some credibility. madMac.

Qtec
02-15-2007, 09:32 AM
Nobody is questioning your credibility Mac, certainly not me.
Q

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Nobody is questioning your credibility Mac, certainly not me.<hr /></blockquote>Q,

I am curious to know what you might estimate for the English-usage percentages. Are you willing to take a stab? Please respond here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Thanks,
Dave

joeblow
02-15-2007, 10:11 AM

SpiderMan
02-15-2007, 10:30 AM
Dave,

My guesses would be a lot higher, probably 80%-90% for pro 9-ball. Maybe a little less for 8-ball, as there seem to be more occurances of stop-shot position in 8-ball. I'll guess it around 75% for 8-ball.

SpiderMan

BRussell
02-15-2007, 11:41 AM
First, a disclaimer: I've never seen a pro game in person, and I play primarily with a bunch of hacks in a local 8-ball league, though a handful of them are very good players and periodically play in national tournaments. I personally am ranked at probably the 20th percentile in my league, i.e., I make no claim to be an accomplished pool player.

Having said that, to clarify the numbers people are talking about, I want to ask a couple of questions, in particular of Fran and others who have a lot of experience at the highest levels of pool:

1) On what percentage of shots does the cue ball hit the rail?
2) On what percentage of shots where the cue ball hits a rail do top players use english?
3) On what percentage of middle-of-the-table shots (i.e., shots where the cue ball does not hit a rail) do top players use english anyway, e.g., to throw the ball in order to create a stop shot even if there's a slight angle.

I'd personally guess that on the majority of shots the cue ball hits a rail, but I'd guess it's not as high as 90-95%. Maybe 75%? I'd also guess that on the majority of middle-of-the-table shots, no english is used at all, but since this survey focuses on top players, I really don't know (hence my disclaimer above /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). On the other hand, it's also possible that on some percentage of shots where the cue ball hits a rail, no english is used.

Anyway, my goal is to suggest that breaking it down in this fashion might help to answer dave's question.

bradb
02-15-2007, 11:45 AM
<hr /></blockquote> Crawler: For sure the top Ozz snooker players are happy to uze side for cushion shots (kicks?) and safetys, especially carom safetys. And, of course, the spin side of the ledger starts of at one-zip with the first shot of every frame, koz they all uze some running side off the pack. And, they all love to screw back with spin when too straight on the black (on its spot) to get pozzy on yellow (on its spot), just look at Ding's 147 video. So, yes, perhaps a true count would show say 5%. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

No I can't go with 5%... here's my reasoning after consulting my guru and reading the leaves plus my own entrail fingering:

The snooker play we see in the big tourneys are the top players at the peak of their game, and we usually see only high-light games. Most games across the gamut of players are smaller runs with much more safety play... back down the table safetys, using running side to help with pace either off the rack or off a single red.

There are games where centurys are made with mostly stun, stun back and top. There are games which are safety battles to the colors. What I'm trying to do is set a mean average.

Lets say its 15% safety play with 85% potting per game. I'm guessing 3/4 of the safetys employ side so we would have 10% side usage.

A lot of play around the black is "top" to get back above the rack for another red. Many times slight inside top will bring QB a bit closer in instead of wide. Also some top inside is needed for off angle to the bottom rail to get out to the rack.

There's blue ball pot towards the "D" that needs side to clear the small colors.

There's small color potting that sometimes needs running side off the rail.

Lets say all above would be 20% total side usage.

Throw in anothe 5% for othere factors and we have the 25% first proposed by Dave.

Theres no statistics on this. But its a start.

Note: I'm basing my observation above on watching the Canadian Amateur Championships live.

I'm interested to see if other snooker players would revise this up or down.

Scott Lee
02-15-2007, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joeblow:</font><hr> English is a crutch. It turned McCreedy into a losing bum. Use too much of it like he did and you end up like him, down and out.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah, right Larry...poor Keith...He's only STILL one of the most recognizable names and faces in pool, not to mention one of the most feared players on the planet, when gambling high, and will still match up with anybody at any time. You will find him next month in VF...in case you want to show up and match up some (with him or ME)!

Scott Lee

Greg in VA
02-15-2007, 11:53 AM
<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave, your self-control is an example for us all. Too bad it's lost on some.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

Nice post Jim. I seldom post here for fear of being slammed as the Dr. was....... A shameful display of leaping to unfounded conclusions.

joeblow
02-15-2007, 11:55 AM

Scott Lee
02-15-2007, 12:05 PM
Larry, Larry, Larry, are you off your meds again? Again...if you think Keith and I can't play (and I would never equate myself in skill with him...although I did beat him once, with a huge spot, many years ago out of $1800), why not just show up in VF and take off the 'easy money'? LOL I guarantee you I'll be a lot easier to beat than Keith, that's for sure! LOL

Scott Lee

bradb
02-15-2007, 12:07 PM
Larry, butt out will ya! We're discussing pool here. Start your own thread where you can rant all you want and people can take you on there. But quit infecting other posts with this dysfunctional crap!

Scott Lee
02-15-2007, 12:12 PM
Brad...my sincere apologies for continuing this baloney, and hijacking your thread. Sometimes I get caught up in Larry's mental illness, and ride the tide. I'm outta here now!

Scott Lee

Deeman3
02-15-2007, 12:14 PM
Scott:

I having another one of my famous t-shirts made. If I can get it all in, it will say:

YOU THINK YOU ARE FEARED?

DeeMan's backer offers an 11 time World Champion a shot at him for $500 a game and this world beater moves to Rangoon, gets himself thrown in jail, just to avoid the match-up!

Fast Larry? - Apparently not Fast Enough, unless you count getting out of town.


I can wear this to every tournament I attend and have all CCB'er sign the back of it. If F/L is there, he might be warned that Eric is a gentleman compared to me. (my appologies to Eric)

Then, I claim, by non-association, if I chased off a world beater, then, by comparison, Archer and the rest couldn't have a chance.Right? Hey, I could buy a dog, claim he was a champion pool player and, wow, this stuff is great. I'll need a website, some doctored home movies, some real cheezy photos and, wait, I gotta offend a few real instructors and players and throw in some insane rants,

Hey, Buddy, I got this down. Scott I claim to have beaten, like, Allah or Saddam, would that offend enough of the planet or do I need more? Help me out here. Oh! Yeah, all you guys call all your friends and say, "That crazy DeeMan! I just saw him run 22 racks of nine ball while sewing up an apron for a charity cancer event." Maybe, add, you see that guy on TV last night pull that girl in the burning car out at the last moment, yep, that was DeeMan."

Guys, thanks for all your support. When I inflate my Ego to a large enough size, I won't forget, only belittle you, "the little people". Peace, love, let's do a meeting someday....


DeeMan
can someone loan me a Valium?

Scott Lee
02-15-2007, 12:19 PM
Dee...You KILL me! ROTFLMAO...my sides are killing me...can't stop laughin'! I want the 2nd shirt off the press...I guess you have to have the first one! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

bradb
02-15-2007, 12:20 PM
Sorry Scott I did'nt mean you. It was'nt my thread but I really wanted to talk snooker english with Max thats all, You have every right to be here but I'm suggesting Larry start a thread where he can battle with the people he knows, the rest of us are in the dark there. Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan
02-15-2007, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Scott:

I having another one of my famous t-shirts made. If I can get it all in, it will say:

YOU THINK YOU ARE FEARED?

DeeMan's backer offers an 11 time World Champion a shot at him for $500 a game and this world beater moves to Rangoon, gets himself thrown in jail, just to avoid the match-up!

Fast Larry? - Apparently not Fast Enough, unless you count getting out of town.


I can wear this to every tournament I attend and have all CCB'er sign the back of it. If F/L is there, he might be warned that Eric is a gentleman compared to me. (my appologies to Eric)

Then, I claim, by non-association, if I chased off a world beater, then, by comparison, Archer and the rest couldn't have a chance.Right? Hey, I could buy a dog, claim he was a champion pool player and, wow, this stuff is great. I'll need a website, some doctored home movies, some real cheezy photos and, wait, I gotta offend a few real instructors and players and throw in some insane rants,

Hey, Buddy, I got this down. Scott I claim to have beaten, like, Allah or Saddam, would that offend enough of the planet or do I need more? Help me out here. Oh! Yeah, all you guys call all your friends and say, "That crazy DeeMan! I just saw him run 22 racks of nine ball while sewing up an apron for a charity cancer event." Maybe, add, you see that guy on TV last night pull that girl in the burning car out at the last moment, yep, that was DeeMan."

Guys, thanks for all your support. When I inflate my Ego to a large enough size, I won't forget, only belittle you, "the little people". Peace, love, let's do a meeting someday....


DeeMan
can someone loan me a Valium? <hr /></blockquote>

Dee,

I must have missed the story about you and Fast Larry. Details?

SpiderMan

joeblow
02-15-2007, 12:22 PM

joeblow
02-15-2007, 12:24 PM

Jal
02-15-2007, 12:46 PM
While watching an 8-ball match between Troy Frank and Johnny Archer, I counted the number of shots where the cueball contacted a cushion afterwards. As a percentage of the total, it was around 63%. I didn't count the few safeties, kicks and a couple of cluster breaking shots.

The 63% sort of puts an upper limit to the percentage of shots with english, although Troy Frank did use outside on a couple of occasions where no cushion contact took place.

On the shots where the cueball did contact a cushion, it appeared that either no english was used, or at most a touch, the vast majority of the time... very hard to tell the difference. A large amount of english was used almost never.

Jim

bradb
02-15-2007, 12:48 PM
(larry) bRAD, for christs sake, go away, can't you see we are in the middle of a damn cat fight.

--------------------------

Ok, Ok,



I will start another thread on English in pool.

-Now you stay OUTTA THERE unless you have meaningful input on subject and you're on your meds!!!!! You do that and I might even read your web site.

Scott, sorry!!! ......Come back here and rattle this guys cage!!!

Brad

joeblow
02-15-2007, 12:51 PM

bradb
02-15-2007, 01:01 PM
All anybody has to do is google your name and read about the 11 rails.

You better subscribe to Billiards Digest for this and read Jeanette Lees column also. Ta, Ta.

BRussell
02-15-2007, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> While watching an 8-ball match between Troy Frank and Johnny Archer, I counted the number of shots where the cueball contacted a cushion afterwards. As a percentage of the total, it was around 63%. I didn't count the few safeties, kicks and a couple of cluster breaking shots.

The 63% sort of puts an upper limit to the percentage of shots with english, although Troy Frank did use outside on a couple of occasions where no cushion contact took place.

On the shots where the cueball did contact a cushion, it appeared that either no english was used, or at most a touch, the vast majority of the time... very hard to tell the difference. A large amount of english was used almost never.

Jim <hr /></blockquote> That's exactly the kind of thing I was interested in. Thanks.

Deeman3
02-15-2007, 01:42 PM
Spiderman,

I actually questioned one of F/L's points, in a nice way. I didn't know, at the time, he had assumed one of his well known fake I.D.'s or I'd never have bothered. He wolfed, I wolfed and he blinked and slithered, as usual. It oged a ways back where, once again, he had thrown down the aguntlet, real people show up with real cash and he doesn't show or gets into a fight, anything to avoid showing that world class game we keep hearing about.

For my part, I childishly assisted him in hyjacking a couple threads to call his bluff, but should have known better. It like fighting an unarmed man.

I am sorry to Brad and the others who were haviong a civil conversation but the name calling of good men on the CCB just got the best of me.

DeeMan
420 Pine Level Road
Brantley, Alabama 36009
can be found at Battlefield Billiards in Troy or will make the trip to Montgomery, no further, I'm now tired of wasting time and gas on nits. Nothing wrong with nits but they need not claim otherwise....

wolfdancer
02-15-2007, 02:04 PM
say, this here pool section is getting as "festive" as the npr.....but with a lot more humor......I might have to spend some time up here, now that folks have moved away from such enlightening topics as "do you chalk clockwise in the northern hemisphere?"

wolfdancer
02-15-2007, 02:07 PM
but first "how big a boy are you?" (Roy D. Mercer)

Cornerman
02-15-2007, 02:09 PM
Pro 9-ball: 85%
Pro 8-ball: 60%
Pro Snooker: no idea... but since someone who knows snooker already gave a pretty healthy percentage, I'll go with him.

Also, the 9-ball number above, some of us have watched players that seem to use english on every shot that isn't a dead stop shot. So, it wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibilities for someone to give the 95% estimate.

Fred

wolfdancer
02-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Scott, you can't leave now....I haven't laughed this hard since the great posts of Dave Syrja!!!!

joeblow
02-15-2007, 02:14 PM

bradb
02-15-2007, 02:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Spiderman,

I actually questioned one of F/L's points, in a nice way. I didn't know, at the time, he had assumed one of his well known fake I.D.'s or I'd never have bothered. He wolfed, I wolfed and he blinked and slithered, as usual. It oged a ways back where, once again, he had thrown down the aguntlet, real people show up with real cash and he doesn't show or gets into a fight, anything to avoid showing that world class game we keep hearing about.

For my part, I childishly assisted him in hyjacking a couple threads to call his bluff, but should have known better. It like fighting an unarmed man.

I am sorry to Brad and the others who were haviong a civil conversation but the name calling of good men on the CCB just got the best of me.

DeeMan

<hr /></blockquote>

No problem Deeman, actually this was Daves thread from which he has left long ago... This is a hoot actually... As long as Larry can't bite anybody there's no danger of Rabies! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I hope Scott comes back.

I'm off to a new thread. Cheers, -Brad

joeblow
02-15-2007, 02:30 PM

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 02:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr>I want to ask a couple of questions, in particular of Fran and others who have a lot of experience at the highest levels of pool:

1) On what percentage of shots does the cue ball hit the rail?
2) On what percentage of shots where the cue ball hits a rail do top players use english?
3) On what percentage of middle-of-the-table shots (i.e., shots where the cue ball does not hit a rail) do top players use english anyway, e.g., to throw the ball in order to create a stop shot even if there's a slight angle.<hr /></blockquote>
Those are good additional questions to consider.

I've already taken these issues into consideration when I estimated my percentages, but maybe some haven't.

Thanks,
Dave

bradb
02-15-2007, 02:49 PM
Larry, I took a look at your site... graphics not bad, I gotta say one thing though!

That 3' WalMart table you got the 11 rails on won't qualify Dude!!!

Got my eye on your forum... you ever heard of the mad slasher!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

bradb
02-15-2007, 03:03 PM
Post deleted by bradb

docholliday
02-15-2007, 03:12 PM

wolfdancer
02-15-2007, 03:33 PM
I can't understand why they would ban you....for what reason?
People "jaw" at each other all the time in a pool hall.....nothing like getting off a good "zinger" on the other guy...and even funnier when someone gets off one on you.
The thread was entertaining as hell.....
back to the drawing board, and trying to quantify pool.....

SpiderMan
02-15-2007, 03:43 PM
BR,

That's a very good point to bring up, as it is a partial basis for my (and perhaps others') high estimates.

Very insightful for someone who says he's only in the 20th percentile - maybe we're being hustled /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
02-15-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm printing up my own T-shirt line, and hope you'll be my first customer:
"Bring Back Fast to the CCB"
Buy 2 from me, and I'll throw in a
"Hillary for President" T-shirt, maybe even a "yo Mama, vote Obama" one.
C,mon....admit you enjoyed trading barbs with FL ( even though you was overmatched)...lol

bradb
02-15-2007, 03:53 PM
He's out of control Jack, he's like a virus. Plus his language was getting offensive, did'nt bother me but the forum has to have some sence of civility and I'm sure many were offended.
He was funny as hell but his intention was to disrupt the board. I left him with the message that his board will soon be visited by the mad slasher, hope he got that, Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I can't understand why they would ban you....for what reason?
People "jaw" at each other all the time in a pool hall.....nothing like getting off a good "zinger" on the other guy...and even funnier when someone gets off one on you.
The thread was entertaining as hell.....
back to the drawing board, and trying to quantify pool..... <hr /></blockquote>It is entertaining for 1 or 2 posts, but then it gets to be ridiculous. It is a waste of everybody's time to have to sift through all of the childish/petty/neurotic messages to find the interesting posts with actual content or genuine humor. Too many threads have been soiled lately, and I think the debate and discussion suffers as a result.

Shame on you for encouraging such behavior. I hereby take away your Zen Peace Master status.

Dave

Fran Crimi
02-15-2007, 04:27 PM
Okay, then. If you insist. Answer these first:

What type of tables are being used? What are the pocket sizes? How are the pocket facings shaped and are they soft, medium or hard? How far into the pockets does the slate extend? How are the ends of the cushions shaped? What type of cloth and cushions are being used? What are the angles of the cushions? What balls are being used? Are the balls waxed? Are they cleaned? What type of cleaning solution is used? How often? Are they cleaned between matches? Have the balls just been taken out of storage? Are they still cold from storage? What is the temperature of the room? Is the humidity level high? Is it exceptionally hot or cold? What type of cloth is being used and how tightly has it been pulled? What day of play is it on the cloth? Day one? Day two? Day three? Is this the first match of the day? The last match of the day? Is the cloth being brushed between matches? What direction is the person brushing the cloth? Is someone applying any cleaning solutions to the cloth? What kind? Is there silicone involved? Has the chalk been kept dry or is it damp?

Now...what questions were you asking again?

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-15-2007, 04:37 PM
Hey Dave, no worries. I get all that passive-agressive stuff about you. I saw it years ago. It's just who you are. Just wondering when others will see it.

You ain't so innoncent, buddy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards!
Fran

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Okay, then. If you insist. Answer these first:

What type of tables are being used? What are the pocket sizes? How are the pocket facings shaped and are they soft, medium or hard? How far into the pockets does the slate extend? How are the ends of the cushions shaped? What type of cloth and cushions are being used? What are the angles of the cushions? What balls are being used? Are the balls waxed? Are they cleaned? What type of cleaning solution is used? How often? Are they cleaned between matches? Have the balls just been taken out of storage? Are they still cold from storage? What is the temperature of the room? Is the humidity level high? Is it exceptionally hot or cold? What type of cloth is being used and how tightly has it been pulled? What day of play is it on the cloth? Day one? Day two? Day three? Is this the first match of the day? The last match of the day? Is the cloth being brushed between matches? What direction is the person brushing the cloth? Is someone applying any cleaning solutions to the cloth? What kind? Is there silicone involved? Has the chalk been kept dry or is it damp?

Now...what questions were you asking again?<hr /></blockquote>
Let me restate the question to be more clear:

What would you guess are the average numbers for the percentage of shots for which pros use sidespin, assuming typical conditions (i.e., averaged over all pro tour events for several years)?

I think the question is pretty simple.

It is difficult to know accurate values without doing an exhaustive study, but I was hoping people could just write what they think, in "ball-park" terms.

If you want, just limit yourself to 8-ball and 9-ball events. But please ... no more questions ... just answers.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-15-2007, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hey Dave, no worries. I get all that passive-agressive stuff about you. I saw it years ago. It's just who you are. Just wondering when others will see it.

You ain't so innoncent, buddy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards!
Fran<hr /></blockquote>If you are going to accuse me of being passive-aggressive, I think you should be specific with your claims. Which recent statement(s) of mine did you consider passive-aggressive towards you?

I think we are just too different in our styles and mindsets to understand each other ... the whole Mars/Venus tomaytoe/tomotoe thing.

Respectfully,
Dave

PS: I hope you don't find insult in this message. I assure you I have no passive aggresion in my soul at the moment ... only peace and love. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. Your experience and insight are often helpful on this forum. I have certainly learned a lot from you ... about pool, and about my apparent lack of sensitivity and understanding in the interpersonal relations arena. You and my x-wife should have a beer one day.

bradb
02-15-2007, 05:52 PM
Dave, I've started a snooker perpective on another thread. Right now its a low of 5% to a high of 25%. My first % was much higher, Max whittled me down./ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Brad

BRussell
02-15-2007, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hey Dave, no worries. I get all that passive-agressive stuff about you. I saw it years ago. It's just who you are. Just wondering when others will see it.

You ain't so innoncent, buddy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards!
Fran

<hr /></blockquote> Well no one would accuse you of being passive-aggressive. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fran Crimi
02-16-2007, 07:17 AM
You just joined the forum. Take it easy.

Fran Crimi
02-16-2007, 08:40 AM
The answer is that it's up to the player at the moment he or she is playing based on his or her assessment of the conditions as well as their personal preferences for use of sidespin. Just because I asked a lot of questions in my previous post, it doesn't mean I was looking for answers. I was making a point.

I enjoy using spin, however, there have been times that the playing conditions dictated (particularly when the cloth is sliding) that I cut down on spin. That doesn't mean that it was my playing style to do so. I had to if I wanted to pocket the balls under those particular conditions.

So, depending on the matches you are watching at any given time, the players are playing based on their assesment of the conditions as well as their preferences for spin.

I can't give you percentages and I'm sorry that you can't see why but that's the way it is. You think the answers are simple because you haven't been out there and done it yourself. Try competing sometime where your neck is on the line and you'll see what I mean.

Fran

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> The answer is that it's up to the player at the moment he or she is playing based on his or her assessment of the conditions as well as their personal preferences for use of sidespin. Just because I asked a lot of questions in my previous post, it doesn't mean I was looking for answers. I was making a point.

I enjoy using spin, however, there have been times that the playing conditions dictated (particularly when the cloth is sliding) that I cut down on spin. That doesn't mean that it was my playing style to do so. I had to if I wanted to pocket the balls under those particular conditions.

So, depending on the matches you are watching at any given time, the players are playing based on their assesment of the conditions as well as their preferences for spin.

I can't give you percentages and I'm sorry that you can't see why but that's the way it is. You think the answers are simple because you haven't been out there and done it yourself. Try competing sometime where your neck is on the line and you'll see what I mean.<hr /></blockquote>
Fair enough. Although, I still think it is possible to think about typical tournament conditions (i.e., the average of all of the conditions you might face on a pro tour over an entire year). Then you could come up with "ball-park" percentages to express your gut feel. Alternatively, you could give two different sets of percentages for two condition extremes you might face.

Still curious what you think for typical (and/or extreme) conditions,
Dave

wayne crimi
02-16-2007, 09:10 AM
I find myself adjusting the percentage to maximize my potential success under the playing conditions. My guess would be that most pros also make adjustments like that.

All that said, from watching pros over the years, I believe the percentage is very high. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they use English on almost every shot that isn't straight in. For many, it's not just a matter of cue ball control. They also use a touch of English to throw the object ball a little because they believe it helps them pocket the balls.

If you want an "average" that includes "all conditions", I'd probably guess close to 85%-90% for 9-ball, but a bit lower for 8-ball and 14.1 because the pocketing and cue ball movement requirements are easier.

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 09:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hey Dave, no worries. I get all that passive-agressive stuff about you. I saw it years ago. It's just who you are. Just wondering when others will see it.

You ain't so innoncent, buddy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards!
Fran

<hr /></blockquote> Well no one would accuse you of being passive-aggressive. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You just joined the forum. Take it easy. <hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

In my opinion, you deserved this ... even from a "newbie." You might not like my personal style, but you have no right to label me with derogatory terms and assume you know me. You haven't even met me before. I think the people that have met me before can vouch for the fact that I am not as malicious as you try to make me out to be.

Now, I know I have offended you in the past (maybe even a few times), but I think I apologized. In retrospect, I wish I had been more aware of and sensitive to the potential hurtfulness of some of my postings. Live and learn. I wish we could just "start over" and leave some of the past baggage behind.

Today is the first day of the rest of our lives,
Dave

Fran Crimi
02-16-2007, 09:26 AM
Nah, I'm not insulted at all by what you've said. And your compliments have not gone unnoticed.

Believe me, you don't want examples. You're not a masochist too, are you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Listen, it doesn't mean I'm saying you're a bad person, Dave. My best friend has passive-aggressive tendencies. She's also in deep therapy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif J/K

Truth of the matter is that we all do the passive-agressive thing sometimes. It's like a wall of protection we put around ourselves. I don't let my students get away with that when they exhibit that on a pool table because it holds back their growth.

And sometimes we do it as a self-preservation thing.

But one thing is for sure and that it's always fear-based. Sometimes the fear is rational and sometimes it's not.

That's really all I'm going to say on the subject.

Fran

Deeman3
02-16-2007, 09:37 AM
Everyone needs to develop a smooth and calm disposition, like I possess. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan
.....or am I possessed?

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Nah, I'm not insulted at all by what you've said. And your compliments have not gone unnoticed.

Believe me, you don't want examples. You're not a masochist too, are you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Listen, it doesn't mean I'm saying you're a bad person, Dave. My best friend has passive-aggressive tendencies. She's also in deep therapy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif J/K

Truth of the matter is that we all do the passive-agressive thing sometimes. It's like a wall of protection we put around ourselves. I don't let my students get away with that when they exhibit that on a pool table because it holds back their growth.

And sometimes we do it as a self-preservation thing.

But one thing is for sure and that it's always fear-based. Sometimes the fear is rational and sometimes it's not.

That's really all I'm going to say on the subject.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Wow, maybe I do need therapy. According to you, i might be:
<ul type="square"> passive-aggressive
masochistic /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
self-preserving
fearful (maybe irrationally)[/list]/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Your compliments are quite overwhelming ... you are making me blush. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif Please stop while you are ahead. You sure are good with psychoanalysis via Internet forum discussions. Maybe you chose the wrong profession.

These issues might take me a lifetime to address in therapy. I better get started ... I think I'll call for an appointment now. Maybe my x-wife is available ... she is a psychologist.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Everyone needs to develop a smooth and calm disposition, like I possess. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan
.....or am I possessed?<hr /></blockquote>Does excessive alcohol help ... because, right now I feel like I need a few drinks?

Thank you for your wisdom,
Dave

Deeman3
02-16-2007, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Everyone needs to develop a smooth and calm disposition, like I possess. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan
.....or am I possessed?<hr /></blockquote>Does excessive alcohol help ... because, right now I feel like I need a few drinks?

Thank you for your wisdom,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Alcohol, prayer and images of Teddy Bears...

</font color>

DeeMan
been there, bought the Bear...

bradb
02-16-2007, 11:50 AM
Deeman, After this week we may have to break precident here and initiate Dave into the old timers Rhino Hide club! Lets send him the rites.....

A good single malt, a Gideons, and a gift certificate to Toys-R-Us!

-Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Jal
02-16-2007, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...These issues might take me a lifetime to address in therapy. I better get started ... I think I'll call for an appointment now. <hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave,

There's only one way you'll gain her respect, and it doesn't involve playing The Gentleman. Perhaps if you replace that phony professorial image on your avitar with what some of us know to be the real one (http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/Bickle.jpg), it might help. But if it were me, I would just give it up and go practice my safeties. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jim

wolfdancer
02-16-2007, 02:02 PM
only thing I ever get from Dr. Dave's posts are....
he's both searching for new info on pool, and willing to share what info he has already acquired.He's always been respectful to the "name" players/instructors here!!
Maybe what you're reading into his posts is a bit of a carry-over from his professional life. A good teacher doesn't want his students to just learn by rote, and invites a little "debate"....
I'll invite him down to the NPR site,and we'll check out your theory. After we figger out which side of the plate he's swinging from (right, or the preferred left) and begin our constructive critism....we'll see how aggressively passive he is...passive-aggressive...I skipped school the day they taught physcology (can't even spell it)...but that sounds like an oxymoron to me. It's cruel to be kind.....

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...These issues might take me a lifetime to address in therapy. I better get started ... I think I'll call for an appointment now. <hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave,

There's only one way you'll gain her respect, and it doesn't involve playing The Gentleman. Perhaps if you replace that phony professorial image on your avitar with what some of us know to be the real one (http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/Bickle.jpg), it might help. But if it were me, I would just give it up and go practice my safeties. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jim <hr /></blockquote>I already tried replacing my avatar photo. It used to be the photo from my book, complete with jacket and tie. Now it is a more casual headshot.

Good advice concerning safety play practice ... one can never get enough of that. Although, I should probably spend even more time with my squirt, swerve, and throw compensation techniques. Evidently, I don't use near as much English as the pros do. I try to avoid those silly rails as much as I can. Maybe I was a snooker player in a past life or something.

Concerning Fran, I don't think I could ever get her to like or respect me, nor do I care to try. I only hope that one day she at least stops being unpleasant and disrespectful.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> only thing I ever get from Dr. Dave's posts are....
he's both searching for new info on pool, and willing to share what info he has already acquired.He's always been respectful to the "name" players/instructors here!!
Maybe what you're reading into his posts is a bit of a carry-over from his professional life. A good teacher doesn't want his students to just learn by rote, and invites a little "debate"....
I'll invite him down to the NPR site,and we'll check out your theory. After we figger out which side of the plate he's swinging from (right, or the preferred left) and begin our constructive critism....we'll see how aggressively passive he is...passive-aggressive...I skipped school the day they taught physcology (can't even spell it)...but that sounds like an oxymoron to me. It's cruel to be kind..... <hr /></blockquote>Thanks, Wolfie. That means a lot to me (and I think it is accurate).

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-16-2007, 03:02 PM
Well now, I'm having second thoughts......after hearing Bob Dylan's "The Man in Me" this morn....

"The man in me will hide sometimes to keep from bein' seen,
But that's just because he doesn't want to turn into some machine.
Took a woman like you
To get through to the man in me."
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
02-16-2007, 03:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Well now, I'm having second thoughts......after hearing Bob Dylan's "The Man in Me" this morn....

"The man in me will hide sometimes to keep from bein' seen,
But that's just because he doesn't want to turn into some machine.
Took a woman like you
To get through to the man in me."
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Are you saying that Fran helped bring out the fire in my belly? Maybe you are right. In that case, maybe I owe Fran some thanks.

Cheers,
Dave

colincolenso
02-18-2007, 07:45 AM
I've perused this thread briefly and wanted to add my own 2c, though late it is /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Generally I think Dave's original estimates are pretty much in the ball park, but things could be interpreted quite widely.

For example, I think a lot of pros use gearing outside english on nearly all shots that are slightly angled which don't require other english for position. This includes a lot of snooker pros and some of them are not even conscious that they are doing so.

The amount of offset can vary too, so defining what is a shot with english and what isn't is difficult.

We could assume that shots with english are though where english is consciously put on the CB, but here the numbers would be significantly lower than the truth, because many players are not conscious they are applying english, when in actuality they are.

btw: I tend to agree with BradB regarding snooker players using a english quite often during safety play which could account for 25%+ of total game play.

Colin

dr_dave
02-18-2007, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote colincolenso:</font><hr> I've perused this thread briefly and wanted to add my own 2c, though late it is /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Generally I think Dave's original estimates are pretty much in the ball park, but things could be interpreted quite widely.

For example, I think a lot of pros use gearing outside english on nearly all shots that are slightly angled which don't require other english for position. This includes a lot of snooker pros and some of them are not even conscious that they are doing so.

The amount of offset can vary too, so defining what is a shot with english and what isn't is difficult.

We could assume that shots with english are though where english is consciously put on the CB, but here the numbers would be significantly lower than the truth, because many players are not conscious they are applying english, when in actuality they are.

btw: I tend to agree with BradB regarding snooker players using a english quite often during safety play which could account for 25%+ of total game play.

Colin <hr /></blockquote>
FYI, I responded to some of your comments in a new thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245219&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=). Please check it out and give me your thoughts.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-24-2007, 11:13 AM
This and other recent threads got me wondering the following:

How many top players use outside English (OE) on cut shots? For the sake of argument, please assume the following:

- the shot could easily be made without OE; although, "cling" (AKA "skid," "kick", "slide") could cause a miss.

- English is not required for position on the next shot.

- typical tournament conditions apply (relatively new, clean, and smooth balls)

I ask this question in this thread, because I think this could explain why some people's percentages for English-usage might be so high.

Here's my guess (although I would think some people might guess much higher based on the numbers in this thread):

50% of top players routinely use OE on cut shots.

What do you guys think?

Regards,
Dave

Berznarf
02-25-2007, 05:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>PS: I hope you don't find insult in this message. I assure you I have no passive aggresion in my soul at the moment ... only peace and love. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. Your experience and insight are often helpful on this forum. I have certainly learned a lot from you ... about pool, and about my apparent lack of sensitivity and understanding in the interpersonal relations arena. You and my x-wife should have a beer one day. <hr /></blockquote>

I have to wonder if Fran's students have to apologize in advance when they are about to shoot in practice, for fear that a missed shot will be construed as a veiled attack on her teaching ability.

Stretch
02-25-2007, 06:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Berznarf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>PS: I hope you don't find insult in this message. I assure you I have no passive aggresion in my soul at the moment ... only peace and love. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. Your experience and insight are often helpful on this forum. I have certainly learned a lot from you ... about pool, and about my apparent lack of sensitivity and understanding in the interpersonal relations arena. You and my x-wife should have a beer one day. <hr /></blockquote>

I have to wonder if Fran's students have to apologize in advance when they are about to shoot in practice, for fear that a missed shot will be construed as a veiled attack on her teaching ability. <hr /></blockquote>

Berznarf, mr. two post. You've only had two shots and missed them both. who's your teacher? St.

Berznarf
02-25-2007, 07:03 PM
Why judge me based on the amount of posts I have made? I have been reading here for quite some time. I don't post much because I have only been playing for a little over a year, and the knowledge I have concerning pool puts me in a place where what I could say has already been said, or I just don't have anything I could add. On personalities, however, I have my lifetime's worth of experience, including over 10 years working as a waiter, where I have dealt with many styles of people. Judging from the many threads I have read here, I can see that Fran is the type of person in whose food I would be tempted to spit (only tempted; I don't do that crap). I have seen way too many posts where she finds personal insult where absolutely none was intended; a little high on herself, perhaps? So, while I have posted little, I have read plenty to understand personalities. That was the point of my most recent post.

Aside from that, did I miss my first shot? If so, why did no one (yourself included) bother to correct me? In fact, the only response to my first post was a positive reaction. What I posted was a thought from personal experience that improved my game, not the result of any technical analysis. According to many here, that 'practical' thought is all that is worthwhile. I will admit, though, that at this point I believe I was a little off in my original assessment; it seems to me that it was a different head tilt that causes my alignment issues. I do still believe that head positioning does have an effect, but that's off topic for this thread.

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 09:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Berznarf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>PS: I hope you don't find insult in this message. I assure you I have no passive aggresion in my soul at the moment ... only peace and love. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. Your experience and insight are often helpful on this forum. I have certainly learned a lot from you ... about pool, and about my apparent lack of sensitivity and understanding in the interpersonal relations arena. You and my x-wife should have a beer one day. <hr /></blockquote>

I have to wonder if Fran's students have to apologize in advance when they are about to shoot in practice, for fear that a missed shot will be construed as a veiled attack on her teaching ability.<hr /></blockquote>I officially declare today (2/29) as "Give Fran a Break" Day. Fran is a very well respected and knowledgeable instructor. I think it is unfortunate that some recent posts are making some people think otherwise. I have tremendous respect for her and her contributions to this forum. She often adds practical insight, wisdom, and perspective to our threads. Let's give her a break on this one.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Berznarf:</font><hr> Why judge me based on the amount of posts I have made? I have been reading here for quite some time. I don't post much because I have only been playing for a little over a year, and the knowledge I have concerning pool puts me in a place where what I could say has already been said, or I just don't have anything I could add. On personalities, however, I have my lifetime's worth of experience, including over 10 years working as a waiter, where I have dealt with many styles of people. Judging from the many threads I have read here, I can see that Fran is the type of person in whose food I would be tempted to spit (only tempted; I don't do that crap). I have seen way too many posts where she finds personal insult where absolutely none was intended; a little high on herself, perhaps? So, while I have posted little, I have read plenty to understand personalities. That was the point of my most recent post.<hr /></blockquote>I also used to be a waiter, and I also feel I know people fairly well. You seem like a good person. I hope you continue to participate, even if some people judge you harshly. On the flip side, some of the people who tend to judge harshly also often have great advice and wisdom, so I try to just accept the good with the bad and learn as much as I can ... about interpersonal communication and pool.

Hang in there,
Dave

eg8r
02-26-2007, 11:50 AM
Man, you are just spinning your wheels with Fran. She does not appear to have any intention of discussing pool with you. You guys on are opposite ends of the game (her with actual experience at a pro level, you no experience but lots of math) and while you seem to want to learn something about the way pros play, she is unwilling to help you out.

When you ask someone for "ballpark figures", an average across all players for all tournaments (looking for data that has already transpired) and she gives you an answer like, "it depends on the person at that point in time" it is obvious her intent is to waste your time. Move on and continue discussing with those willing to answer your questions.

eg8r

eg8r
02-26-2007, 11:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think I still disagree with the percentages you guys are implying. That's why I wanted you guys to take a rough guess at the numbers (e.g., 50%, 75%, 90%, 99%???). Here are my guesses for the percentage of shots where sidespin is used:

pro 9-ball: 75%
pro 8-ball: 40%
pro snooker: 10%

I know it is reckless of me to throw numbers out there, but I wanted to be the first so others would feel more willing. <hr /></blockquote> Pro 9 - 80%
Pro 8 - 60%
Snooker - Who cares, this is a completely different game on a completely different table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~reckless only because Dave started it

bradb
02-26-2007, 12:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Also, I think I still disagree with the percentages you guys are implying. That's why I wanted you guys to take a rough guess at the numbers (e.g., 50%, 75%, 90%, 99%???). Here are my guesses for the percentage of shots where sidespin is used:

pro 9-ball: 75%
pro 8-ball: 40%
pro snooker: 10%

I know it is reckless of me to throw numbers out there, but I wanted to be the first so others would feel more willing. <hr /></blockquote> Pro 9 - 80%
Pro 8 - 60%
Snooker - Who cares, this is a completely different game on a completely different table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~reckless only because Dave started it <hr /></blockquote>

Max, several other snooker players and myself addressed this early on and in a cont. thread. The consensus is that there is a lot of safety play in snooker which requires a lot of running side. And that a lot of players leave the QB center slightly for fine tuning delicate shots. Other than that its almost imposible to come up with any mean average. Most put it well under 50%. -Brad

Cornerman
02-26-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]I also used to be a waiter, and I also feel I know people fairly well. You seem like a good person. I hope you continue to participate, even if some people judge you harshly. On the flip side, some of the people who tend to judge harshly also often have great advice and wisdom, so I try to just accept the good with the bad and learn as much as I can ... about interpersonal communication and pool.

Hang in there,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dave, the judgement of Berznarf's posts had very little to do with the amount of posts he made. Please be aware of that when encouraging his actions. Most people who complain that people judge them on their number of posts are clearly clueless and are trying to deflect intentions.

Berznarf's post was out of line, and a clear example of hit-and-run posting. They do not and should not hold any merit whatsoever. Not because of the amount of post he has made, but the very fact that his first post is an attack. That's not sharing; that's cowardice attacking.

Shame on anyone on encouraging that very well known style of forum abuse.

On such matters, I would strongly suggest that you don't take on the responsibility of forum moderating. Not only are you not showing any experience in that arena, but you only help to piss off the people who know better. Don't Feed the Trolls, and Don't Validate Their Baiting.

And finally, when you say, "so I try to just accept the good with the bad and learn as much as I can," that is passive agressive and in light of recent posts, inexcusable. You've apologized, and the response was that no apology was necessary. Your future actions would tell all. And, IMO, they have.

Fred &lt;~~~ that didn't take long

Fran Crimi
02-26-2007, 01:00 PM
So, I'm supposed to go out on a limb and make a guess, even though I don't feel comfortable about it, just so I can give the appearance of being helpful? Right, that's really responsible.

Fran

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ]I also used to be a waiter, and I also feel I know people fairly well. You seem like a good person. I hope you continue to participate, even if some people judge you harshly. On the flip side, some of the people who tend to judge harshly also often have great advice and wisdom, so I try to just accept the good with the bad and learn as much as I can ... about interpersonal communication and pool.

Hang in there,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dave, the judgement of Berznarf's posts had very little to do with the amount of posts he made. Please be aware of that when encouraging his actions. Most people who complain that people judge them on their number of posts are clearly clueless and are trying to deflect intentions.

Berznarf's post was out of line, and a clear example of hit-and-run posting. They do not and should not hold any merit whatsoever. Not because of the amount of post he has made, but the very fact that his first post is an attack. That's not sharing; that's cowardice attacking.

Shame on anyone on encouraging that very well known style of forum abuse.

On such matters, I would strongly suggest that you don't take on the responsibility of forum moderating. Not only are you not showing any experience in that arena, but you only help to piss off the people who know better. Don't Feed the Trolls, and Don't Validate Their Baiting.

And finally, when you say, "so I try to just accept the good with the bad and learn as much as I can," that is passive agressive and in light of recent posts, inexcusable. You've apologized, and the response was that no apology was necessary. Your future actions would tell all. And, IMO, they have.

Fred &lt;~~~ that didn't take long <hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Thank you for your opinions. I respectfully disagree. I also respectfully decline to respond any further on this matter because I predict no possibility for a positive or helpful outcome.

Regards,
Dave

Cornerman
02-26-2007, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Thank you for your opinions. I respectfully disagree. <hr /></blockquote>You respectfully disagree??? That what? That the guy's post was a baiting attack? This wasn't up for debate, and it wasn't an opinion. If you didn't know, then you didn't know. Please don't belittle this by trying to convince anyone that it was just my 'opinion.'

Fred

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 02:18 PM
I was hoping some people would respond to this question (see below), but I can also see why people might be a little gun-shy or hesitant to take guesses for numbers concerning the pros. Therefore, I posted a personal poll that I think everybody can respond to without posting risky public statements. Please respond to the poll concerning when you use outside English (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245901&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> This and other recent threads got me wondering the following:

How many top players use outside English (OE) on cut shots? For the sake of argument, please assume the following:

- the shot could easily be made without OE; although, "cling" (AKA "skid," "kick", "slide") could cause a miss.

- English is not required for position on the next shot.

- typical tournament conditions apply (relatively new, clean, and smooth balls)

I ask this question in this thread, because I think this could explain why some people's percentages for English-usage might be so high.

Here's my guess (although I would think some people might guess much higher based on the numbers in this thread):

50% of top players routinely use OE on cut shots.

What do you guys think?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Berznarf
02-26-2007, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Dave, the judgement of Berznarf's posts had very little to do with the amount of posts he made. Please be aware of that when encouraging his actions. Most people who complain that people judge them on their number of posts are clearly clueless and are trying to deflect intentions.<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>Berznarf, mr. two post. You've only had two shots and missed them both. who's your teacher? St.<hr /></blockquote>

Ah, you're right. How could we have been so ignorant?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Berznarf's post was out of line, and a clear example of hit-and-run posting. ... That's not sharing; that's cowardice attacking.<hr /></blockquote>

Out of line? Perhaps; I will not debate that point. Hit-and-run posting? No, I am still here to defend myself, and I hope to be able to post something worthwhile in the future (in the near future any potential posts will probably be questions). And any intent to attack was purely tongue-in-cheek, hence the satirical form of my post. No, my post was meant as a critique. I, personally, find it ridiculous that Dr. Dave has to apologize in advance in nearly every post he makes relating to Fran Crimi, for fear that some harmless remark be construed as aggression (as in the quote I used in my post).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>You respectfully disagree??? That what? That the guy's post was a baiting attack? This wasn't up for debate, and it wasn't an opinion. If you didn't know, then you didn't know. Please don't belittle this by trying to convince anyone that it was just my 'opinion.'<hr /></blockquote>

It's great to see that you are able to fully decipher another's intentions over the 'net. Please see my preceding paragraph.

Again, my post was meant basically as a critique on Fran's behavior regarding, mainly, Dr. Dave, but also a few others that I've noticed. I recently read a thread questioning why there was so little posting happening here, at least relative to other billiards forums. Well, hrm, ever wonder why TN Joe titled a thread 'Is Fran Crimi another name for Fast Larry???' Or maybe it's the fact that one is apparently only allowed praise, and not critique, until one becomes an established member?

Of the posts Fran has made in this thread that were on topic to the title, her first seems to be an attack on Dave's intent for starting this thread. Her second is a large, clear-cut example of that 'passive-aggression' you seem so fond of placing on Dave. Third, we have:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>So, I'm supposed to go out on a limb and make a guess, even though I don't feel comfortable about it, just so I can give the appearance of being helpful? Right, that's really responsible.<hr /></blockquote>

That's very professional. What is so difficult about, 'Listen, Dave, the question you are asking has no real, genuine answer that I can give you. There are too many variables concerning conditions, etc, for there to be a set number that I can give you, and I just don't feel like taking the time to crunch numbers from this set of conditions with that set of conditions with that set of conditions, etc, to be able to provide you with an answer to your question. Sorry.'?

Finally, back to the fact that I am unknown around here. Well, that presents me as an unbiased outsider who sees Fran continually attacking Dr. Dave and, apparently, making a concerted effort to crush his curiosity.

Actually, that wasn't final. I do want to say that I trust that Fran is an excellent player and instructor. I am sure I could learn a lot from her. I just feel that, for the sake of this board attracting new members, it might help if Fran acted a bit more civily

That being said, I, myself, am done with this topic. If I come up with any questions or, perhaps, useful info, I will post. Until then, I will continue to lurk.

Qtec
02-26-2007, 08:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Of the posts Fran has made in this thread that were on topic to the title, her first seems to be an attack on Dave's intent for starting this thread. Her second is a large, clear-cut example of that 'passive-aggression' you seem so fond of placing on Dave. Third, we have:


Quote Fran Crimi:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, I'm supposed to go out on a limb and make a guess, even though I don't feel comfortable about it, just so I can give the appearance of being helpful? Right, that's really responsible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's very professional. What is so difficult about, 'Listen, Dave, the question you are asking has no real, genuine answer that I can give you. There are too many variables concerning conditions, etc, for there to be a set number that I can give you, and I just don't feel like taking the time to crunch numbers from this set of conditions with that set of conditions with that set of conditions, etc, to be able to provide you with an answer to your question. Sorry.'?
<hr /></blockquote>


<font color="blue">If you check the first post in this thread you will find: </font color>

Quote Fran Crimi:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Fred. having been in the arena for a couple of decades with both men and women, I can say with confidence that sidespin is heavily used by the pros on tour. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high. <font color="blue"> my bold </font color>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Qtec.

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 01:47 AM
Dr. Dave, as the board ombudsman here....I did a little research on "passive-aggressive"
(if one can call Googling, research)
First off..being a p-a means that one is sufferring from a passive-aggressive personality disorder. However:
PAPD must be differentiated from histrionic and borderline PD. Patients with PAPD, are less flamboyant, dramatic, affective and openly aggressive than those with histrionic and borderline PD. (So, on a scale of 1 to 10....how flamboyant are you?)
Different sites list the signs and traits of the PAPD person
(The worst trait though, a social faux pas, PAPDs are always the last ones to arrive at the party.....)
http://www.straightdope.com/art/2003/030530.gif

Over at The Straight dope...it turns out the term was first coined by the military in 1945....and it's kind of like a "Catch-22"....if you don't think you have it....you probably do (that's the first sign).
In a less clinical meaning of the term....it just means that you are a "pain in the posterior" to some folks.

In dealing with the passive-aggressive personality it is recommended that others :
not be judgmental, angry, controlling....
and Be completely accepting of who they are
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Help stamp out PAPD....

Voodoo Daddy
02-27-2007, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Man, you are just spinning your wheels with Fran. She does not appear to have any intention of discussing pool with you. You guys on are opposite ends of the game (her with actual experience at a pro level, you no experience but lots of math) and while you seem to want to learn something about the way pros play, she is unwilling to help you out. eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Its hard to teach someone about how a pro plays pool. It would be like understanding Elvis or Tiger when you sing like Alfalfa or play golf like one of the 3 Stooges.

Cornerman
02-27-2007, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Berznarf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>Berznarf, mr. two post. You've only had two shots and missed them both. who's your teacher? St.<hr /></blockquote>

Ah, you're right. How could we have been so ignorant? <hr /></blockquote>The fact that you still don't understand this speaks volumes about where the internet forums have arrived. I would hope that in the future, nobody would point to Stretch's comments as some misconstrued proof that veteran poster's dismiss new posters based solely on number of posts. That wasn't the case here. And it's never the case. Your writing tells me you should understand that. It's always about content.

It has been universally understood on bulletin boards that if a person's initial posts are attacks, baits, and trolls, then that poster has baiting, attacking, and trolling as their objective.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote B.:</font><hr> I, personally, find it ridiculous that Dr. Dave has to apologize in advance in nearly every post he makes relating to Fran Crimi, for fear that some harmless remark be construed as aggression (as in the quote I used in my post). <hr /></blockquote>I equally finds it ridiculous that Dr. Dave and anyone else can't see how condenscending and insulting some of his posts are. But, this has already been said, so it's not new. If someone feels insulted, s/he should have the right to tell the other person that s/he felt insulted.

And as someone already pointed out, Fran initially alreadyt wrote exactly what you said she should have written (about making guesses on percentages of english use by pros). So, since she did what you said she should, now what??? Apology to Fran maybe?


Fred

Fran Crimi
02-27-2007, 08:22 AM
I just discovered a problem that could cause people to think I'm critical for no reason:

Here was Dave's original post where he quoted me:

Quote Fran Crimi:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Fred. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


After I criticized him for leaving out what I felt was extremely important in my post, he went back and changed my quote (with no indication of editing) in his original post to include the following:


Quote Fran Crimi:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Fred. having been in the arena for a couple of decades with both men and women, I can say with confidence that sidespin is heavily used by the pros on tour. I can't give percentages, and I think it's foolish to try to even guess, but I'm sure the percentages are extremely high.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That left my original response to him hanging out there high and dry.

My mistake was in not copying his original post into my response. I noticed that no one else did, either, unfortunately. Bad on me for trusting him.

Anyone reading his original post after he edited it (without any indication that he did) would understandably find question with my response. I hadn't caught what he did until just now.

Now tell me that's not a passive aggressive move, or are we going to just keep saying 'oops' forever? How about the part where he initially cuts out where I state my credentials? Notice that he had to go in between sentences in order to do that. Is that an 'oops', too?

What kind of a person considers that portion of a quote to be irrelevant?

Fran

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 10:07 AM
it might just be an error of omission, even a glaring one at that....The only difference between the two versions (for me) was that the expurgated quote, lacked your pro experience credentials that "qualified" your reply.
( expurgate...having material deleted; "at that time even Shakespeare was considered dangerous except in the expurgated versions" )...probably why I couldn't find them hidden meanings when I read Bill S.
I see a no harm/ no foul, no damage, intentional or otherwise to you...in the Q&amp;A....he asked for percentages....you said it was foolish to guess
It all made sense to me.
I like to just read things here, take them at face value, and agree, or disagree with the content....I think searching for any hidden derogatory content is like reading tea leaves....look long and hard enough....and you'll see what you want to see.
From my limited reading on the topic...Dr. Dave's posts don't seem to fit any clinical diagnosis of that personality disorder....maybe you would care to point out more indices?
No,don't do that..an endless round of charges, where even the denials would be deemed p/a
....if I was Dr. Dave......I'd want a second opinion, after being diagnosed with this personality disorder....as the punch line goes "and you're ugly also"
But As the lyrics go to the "War" song:

"Sometimes I don't speak too bright
but yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?"

sure keeps one busy though, defending every benign statement, from heresy charges.....
( heresy..dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards)

Fran Crimi
02-27-2007, 11:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> it might just be an error of omission, even a glaring one at that....The only difference between the two versions (for me) was that the expurgated quote, lacked your pro experience credentials that "qualified" your reply.
( expurgate...having material deleted; "at that time even Shakespeare was considered dangerous except in the expurgated versions" )...probably why I couldn't find them hidden meanings when I read Bill S.
I see a no harm/ no foul, no damage, intentional or otherwise to you...in the Q&amp;A....he asked for percentages....you said it was foolish to guess
It all made sense to me.
I like to just read things here, take them at face value, and agree, or disagree with the content....I think searching for any hidden derogatory content is like reading tea leaves....look long and hard enough....and you'll see what you want to see.
From my limited reading on the topic...Dr. Dave's posts don't seem to fit any clinical diagnosis of that personality disorder....maybe you would care to point out more indices?
No,don't do that..an endless round of charges, where even the denials would be deemed p/a
....if I was Dr. Dave......I'd want a second opinion, after being diagnosed with this personality disorder....as the punch line goes "and you're ugly also"
But As the lyrics go to the "War" song:

"Sometimes I don't speak too bright
but yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?"

sure keeps one busy though, defending every benign statement, from heresy charges.....
( heresy..dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards)

<hr /></blockquote>

So, you don't think there's anything wrong with going back and changing your original post after a person strongly disagrees with it?


And you don't see the implication of intentionally cutting out the sentences that strongly assist in establishing the credibility of someone's comment?


Don't you get it, Jack? I would not have to make that response to him if he included that sentence in my quote. You don't think that's significant????

Okie dokie, then.

Yup. You're right in that it was all about what he wanted. Nothing else mattered. His was one of the most disgusting, despicible posting moves I've seen here yet.

Fran

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... If someone feels insulted, s/he should have the right to tell the other person that s/he felt insulted. ...<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Thank you for the opportunity.

I have often felt insulted, disrespected, misinterpreted, and slandered by many posts by both you and Fran (and a few others), especially lately.

That's it. I've expressed my feelings. Please don't try to deny them.

Regards,
Dave

Cornerman
02-27-2007, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... If someone feels insulted, s/he should have the right to tell the other person that s/he felt insulted. ...<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Thank you for the opportunity.

I have often felt insulted, disrespected, misinterpreted, and slandered by many posts by both you and Fran (and a few others), especially lately.

That's it. I've expressed my feelings. Please don't try to deny them.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>I shouldn't have to say this, but in my world, there is no possible way for anyone to deny anyone else's feelings.

Fred

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 11:45 AM
Fran, I already noted the omission.....and if it came down to a question of who's right/ who's wrong...re: pool....your credentials would place you in good accord, debating Dr. Dave.
I'm not sure he's looking for any blanket compliance with his views/theories.....but we both have the right to disagree on that....
I like to read the posts here, just for the enjoyment of reading about a game I play for relaxation. I don't have any particular knowledge to add re pool, so it's usually a read only thing for me....and if I want to experience anger, frustration, I'll go down and join in on the NPR section. There will always be differences of opinions on how the game should be approached, taught, etc....I'd hope those differences could be discussed civilly up here....
Down on the NPR....it's a whole different ball game....and I've picked up my glove, and left that game.....hope that combatative zeitgeist doesn't become the norm up here....

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 11:58 AM
I'm on a W. Shakespeare thing here lately......moved away from Goodwin's Law......
anyway I think the good bard covered this "debate" in his
"Much Ado About nothing" play.

Cornerman
02-27-2007, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> There will always be differences of opinions on how the game should be approached, taught, etc....I'd hope those differences could be discussed civilly up here....<hr /></blockquote>This is probably the biggest problem with the various viewpoints on what's going on here. I think most can see the civil discord when the words are clear. What I think that many people miss consciously or subconsciously are the chosen words that reflect dismissiveness, condescension, coyness, mockery, and yes, passive aggressiveness. I grant that many of these "tones" are aren't necessarily written consciously or on purpose, but it's naive to suggest that those tones "aren't there," or "aren't hidden agendas." They are there, like it or not. And once they come up, those posts put civility to the wayside.

Subtlety doesn't work well when the person who makes the initial offense doesn't even realize what they're doing and why it's offensive. So the very obvious non-civil tones come out.

This is how it is in everyday life as well. Anyone whose words come across as insulting or degrading will get a response, whether they realized they were being insulting or not. You can't just look at the response as if it stands alone. There is always a preceding offense. The people who aren't offended of course aren't going to see it as a big deal, but they'll see the response as a big deal. Kind of like getting hit for a flag after retaliating.

To those points, the ommission of the very important sentence, .... you don't see any harm. Of course not. It wasn't your post that got edited and quoted. But you notice the response as being uncivil.

Fred

Fran Crimi
02-27-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Fran, I already noted the omission.....and if it came down to a question of who's right/ who's wrong...re: pool....your credentials would place you in good accord, debating Dr. Dave.
I'm not sure he's looking for any blanket compliance with his views/theories.....but we both have the right to disagree on that....
I like to read the posts here, just for the enjoyment of reading about a game I play for relaxation. I don't have any particular knowledge to add re pool, so it's usually a read only thing for me....and if I want to experience anger, frustration, I'll go down and join in on the NPR section. There will always be differences of opinions on how the game should be approached, taught, etc....I'd hope those differences could be discussed civilly up here....
Down on the NPR....it's a whole different ball game....and I've picked up my glove, and left that game.....hope that combatative zeitgeist doesn't become the norm up here.... <hr /></blockquote>

I totally agree with you about the importance of civility. However, it's equally important to recognize when civility is being used to mask something underlying that is not so civil afterall.

As Fred posted, whether the subtleties are intentional or not, at some point someone will say something. You have no idea how many 'subtleties' of Dave's that I don't respond to. Believe it or not, I do try to be civil about his posts and I pick my battles very carefully. But he has been pushing the envelope for a long time, now.

I don't believe anymore that he's as ignorant as he claims at times. I gave him the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again. You know the old saying about fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Well, I've seen enough of his "Who, me? Let there be peace" posts, and I'm not fooled anymore and I know that I'm not alone in that.


Fran~~~~ Peace with honor.

Jal
02-27-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...I have often felt insulted, disrespected, misinterpreted, and slandered by many posts by both you and Fran (and a few others), especially lately...<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave,

Recently, I've sort of poked a little fun at you myself. While I hoped it was obvious that it was meant in a friendly and repectful manner, given the current context it may of added to the sense of being disrespected. If so, I'm truely sorry. (I haven't forgotten the generosity with which you treated my early posts.)

Jim

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... If someone feels insulted, s/he should have the right to tell the other person that s/he felt insulted. ...<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Thank you for the opportunity.

I have often felt insulted, disrespected, misinterpreted, and slandered by many posts by both you and Fran (and a few others), especially lately.

That's it. I've expressed my feelings. Please don't try to deny them.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>I shouldn't have to say this, but in my world, there is no possible way for anyone to deny anyone else's feelings.<hr /></blockquote>Very well stated! I agree completely. I guess we do agree on things every once in a while. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 01:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...I have often felt insulted, disrespected, misinterpreted, and slandered by many posts by both you and Fran (and a few others), especially lately...<hr /></blockquote>Dr. Dave,

Recently, I've sort of poked a little fun at you myself. While I hoped it was obvious that it was meant in a friendly and repectful manner, given the current context it may of added to the sense of being disrespected. If so, I'm truely sorry. (I haven't forgotten the generosity with which you treated my early posts.)<hr /></blockquote>Jim,

I can't remember any time where I felt disrespected by you, even if you were poking fun at me. Please don't think you need to hold back at all with me. You have helped me a great deal over the last year in spotting errors in several of my analyses and article drafts.

Keep up the good work,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 02:11 PM
This whole discussion will lead me to finally read the NLP book I bought a few weeks back, but haven't gotten past the first few pages.
I'm not versed on the subject, but some word's and phrases trigger reactions for some people.....If there has been some hidden messages, it's been entirely unnoticed by myself, and I dare say, the majority of the members here. I believe only
Berznarf and myself have even added any commentary to this
misunderstanding (my word)....and maybe we should butt out, but...
I think I would PM Dr. Dave...point out what I found to be of continuing annoyance.....and see where that goes.
I'd just like to add, and not mean as an insult.....that a casual observer might read more aggression into your's and Fran's replies on the topic....than Dr. Dave's
(that remark might be a little p/a on my part?...hope not)

Cornerman
02-27-2007, 02:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think I would PM Dr. Dave...point out what I found to be of continuing annoyance.....and see where that goes.<hr /></blockquote>Been there, done that in the past. This is where's it's gone.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> If there has been some hidden messages, it's been entirely unnoticed by myself, and I dare say, the majority of the members here. I believe only
Berznarf and myself have even added any commentary to this
misunderstanding (my word)....and maybe we should butt out, but...
.....<hr /></blockquote>I don't think you or Berznarf should butt out. If I get to put my thoughts out there, you both should be able to do so without hesitation. I can only gauge how hot it's getting by the casual observer. And if we continue this discussion, as odd as it may sound to other casual observers beyond you or Berznarf, I guarantee something good will come of it.



[ QUOTE ]
I'd just like to add, and not mean as an insult.....that a casual observer might read more aggression into your's and Fran's replies on the topic....than Dr. Dave's
(that remark might be a little p/a on my part?...hope not) <hr /></blockquote>I agree with you, Jack. A casual observer would think exactly that, and a few casual observers have posted their feelings as a confirmation. Which is why I feel compelled to continue the discussion. If I'm going to make an ass of myself to a casual observer, he might as well know why.

Fred

Qtec
02-27-2007, 08:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Fran, I already noted the omission.....and if it came down to a question of who's right/ who's wrong...re: pool....your credentials would place you in good accord, debating Dr. Dave. <hr /></blockquote>
LOL. Gotta laugh Wolf. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif You gotta be kiddin? Right?

I'm not on an intelectual par with Fran, Fred or Dave and I'm not very good at communicating on internet forums so I will give you an example of what I think is the problem.

[ QUOTE ]
Dr Dave:
I know that English is an important part of the game at a high (and even intermediate) level. But I still contend the following:
some people (at all levels) over-use English (i.e., use it for shot sequences where there are better alternatives). <font color="blue"> Here Dr Dave is implying that he knows better than the top players in the world! Think about it. </font color>

a player probably shouldn't use English if his or her stroke fundamentals are not solid (consistent and accurate tip placement and aim).

a player should be cautious of using English if he or she is not good at compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw (either consciously or subconsciously).

most beginner and some intermediate players will be more consistent, accurate, and successful with less (rather than more) English usage.

<hr /></blockquote>

Its good advice for someone starting to learn snooker but its totally wrong when its comes to pool! In snooker its tough to make a ball- using E just makes it harder, but in pool getting the right shape to run the patterns means using a lot of E. If Pro players use 90% E to play the game at the highest standard, you had better get practicing right away. There are standard shots that you can ONLY play with E!....but I digress.

Fran is a BCA Master Instructor with years of actual playing and coaching experience at the top levels with many pro players.
Dave is a physics teacher who has a pool table at home. Dave may know his facts but does he actually know anything about pool at the top levels?




Last I heard, pool was still a sport. Its not a quiz, its a bout performing.[ just thought I'd mention it.] /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



Qtec.........JMO of course. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BRussell
02-27-2007, 09:19 PM
Jeezus. All I can see is that every last one of you is a bunch of whiny, hyper-sensitive putzes. Hope that's not too subtly condescending for anyone.

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 01:46 AM
LOL. Gotta laugh Wolf. You gotta be kiddin? Right?

No, it was a subtle way ,I thought, of implying that Fran would have the upper hand in a discussion on how to play the game.
Fran could teach you when and how to apply english...Doctor Dave can explain the physics involved/theory behind the shot....but that's just my opinion.
I'd go to Fran for a lesson, and I'd buy Dr. Dave's book (already got the DVD) for some theory.
I don't even see any conflict there...as they each approach the game from a different viewpoint.
After working in a few rooms, and observing people playing the game....I decided that we are all both students, and instructors of the game....I was always looking for help with my game...and offering advice to people that didn't play near my level.....
I admit most of the non pro teacher advice is of questionable value...but you'll see this sharing of info in most pool rooms.
BUT, I think it's time to put this puppy to bed......nobody can win an argument over what we think the other guy really was saying when he wrote "...."

Fran Crimi
02-28-2007, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Jeezus. All I can see is that every last one of you is a bunch of whiny, hyper-sensitive putzes. Hope that's not too subtly condescending for anyone. <hr /></blockquote>

You bet it's condescending. And it's also incredibly ignorant.

Deeman3
02-28-2007, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Jeezus. All I can see is that every last one of you is a bunch of whiny, hyper-sensitive putzes. Hope that's not too subtly condescending for anyone. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Wow,

somebody woke up on the wrong side of the rock this morning! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifJK </font color>

DeeMan
I'm.............comfortably numb

BRussell
02-28-2007, 08:41 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

dr_dave
02-28-2007, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I know that English is an important part of the game at a high (and even intermediate) level. But I still contend the following:
some people (at all levels) over-use English (i.e., use it for shot sequences where there are better alternatives).<hr /></blockquote>Here Dr Dave is implying that he knows better than the top players in the world! Think about it.<hr /></blockquote>
If you really believe this, then I just lost some respect for you. Please read the statement again more carefully, and see my entire posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) for full context. Some players at all levels (especially beginner and intermediate) use English inappropriately. And yes, I have seen a few top players use English when there were safer (higher margin for error) alternatives. It is ridiculous to imply that I think I know better about successful play than top players. They pretty much almost always make the best personal decisions conerning their play (but not always).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Dave is a physics teacher who has a pool table at home.<hr /></blockquote>You are right about the pool table, but you are wrong about the physics teacher part. For my day job, I am a mechanical engineering professor at a university. IMHO, it is wrong and inappropriate to refer to me as a "physics teacher."

Now, if you want some sort of pool resume, I'll quote from a previous message to you:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I've played in leagues and small tournaments (and won a couple). I can run racks of 9-ball and 8-ball (not every time, but often enough to hope to do it every time). ... I think about pool pretty much every day. I wrote a book on pool. I write monthly instructional articles for Billiards Digest on pool.<hr /></blockquote>I also personally know many top players. I often discuss pool techniques and strategy with them. I also often get contacted by instructors from around the country and world. I don't think they would contact just a "physics teacher." Also, many instructors and top players have purchased my pool book, DVD, and CD-ROM. I also play fairly regularly with several people who know a great deal about pool. I also take every opportunity I get to watch great players on TV and live in my local area to observe what they do well and what they sometimes don't do well. I've also read almost every book ever written about pool, and many book authors and instructors have contacted me for questions and to encourage my work.

My goal here isn't to toot my own horn. I just want to make it clear to everybody that I consider many recent statements by you and others to be complete and inappropriate slander.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Dave may know his facts but does he actually know anything about pool at the top levels?<hr /></blockquote>Just because I don't play at the top level, why do you think I can't have "top level" type understanding? Do you think Tiger Woods' and Roger Federer's coaches play at a top level? Do you think Tiger Woods and Roger Federer would be the best people to write books about coaching and learning their sports? Before you attack me again, please don't assume that I am implying that I should be a pool coach or instructor for Efren. For the record, I am not implying this.

I guess I should stop trying to defend myself. The numerous supportive PM's and e-mails I have been receiving from numerous people should be enough to make me realize that most people have perspective on this recent barrage of slander and misinterpretation. I guess I should feel flattered by all of the attention. Maybe I'll start now.

Thank you,
Dave

Gayle in MD
02-28-2007, 09:48 AM
All I can say is if you people can't discuss pool on this pool related side of the board, without these flaming, condescending, passive agressive, cat fights, then I think the obvioous answer is no more pool discussions, on the pool related side! After all, it is obvious that "Pool" is a very divisive, emotional, hot button topic, and I see no reason why the rest of us who read this board should have to be subjected to all this childish, insulting behavior, over and over again, trying to prove who is right, and who is wrong. Therefore, I insist, we take a vote, right here and now! All those who don't want anymore of these pool related discussions on the pool related side of this website, which is, BTW driving people away, after years of others building up this site, say aye!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
02-28-2007, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> All I can say is if you people can't discuss pool on this pool related side of the board, without these flaming, condescending, passive agressive, cat fights, then I think the obvioous answer is no more pool discussions, on the pool related side! After all, it is obvious that "Pool" is a very divisive, emotional, hot button topic, and I see no reason why the rest of us who read this board should have to be subjected to all this childish, insulting behavior, over and over again, trying to prove who is right, and who is wrong. Therefore, I insist, we take a vote, right here and now! All those who don't want anymore of these pool related discussions on the pool related side of this website, which is, BTW driving people away, after years of others building up this site, say aye!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>Aye!!!!!!!!!!!

BRussell
02-28-2007, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Jeezus. All I can see is that every last one of you is a bunch of whiny, hyper-sensitive putzes. Hope that's not too subtly condescending for anyone. <hr /></blockquote>

You bet it's condescending. And it's also incredibly ignorant. <hr /></blockquote> Well at least you're not gratuitously accusing me of being sexist (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244293&amp;page=2&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=4) this time, as you did in one of your first posts to me. And unlike then, calling me condescending and incredibly ignorant was certainly deserved. I suppose that's progress. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stretch
02-28-2007, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> All I can say is if you people can't discuss pool on this pool related side of the board, without these flaming, condescending, passive agressive, cat fights, then I think the obvioous answer is no more pool discussions, on the pool related side! After all, it is obvious that "Pool" is a very divisive, emotional, hot button topic, and I see no reason why the rest of us who read this board should have to be subjected to all this childish, insulting behavior, over and over again, trying to prove who is right, and who is wrong. Therefore, I insist, we take a vote, right here and now! All those who don't want anymore of these pool related discussions on the pool related side of this website, which is, BTW driving people away, after years of others building up this site, say aye!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

OK, lets just talk about sex. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St.

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 12:01 PM
All I can add is that it's hard to play pool, or even discuss pool, without involving one's ego. It somehow brings out the "beast the lurks within".. I've seen my share of fights in pool halls....never though in my lawn bowling league.
I didn't mind losing in a partner's tournament the other day, as much as I minded the smirk on an opposing player's face, after each bad roll or error from us. I had visions of performing a cue stick colonoscopy on him, then remembered I just had a new tip put on

Deeman3
02-28-2007, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> All I can say is if you people can't discuss pool on this pool related side of the board, without these flaming, condescending, passive agressive, cat fights, then I think the obvioous answer is no more pool discussions, on the pool related side! After all, it is obvious that "Pool" is a very divisive, emotional, hot button topic, and I see no reason why the rest of us who read this board should have to be subjected to all this childish, insulting behavior, over and over again, trying to prove who is right, and who is wrong. Therefore, I insist, we take a vote, right here and now! All those who don't want anymore of these pool related discussions on the pool related side of this website, which is, BTW driving people away, after years of others building up this site, say aye!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

You are the craziest left wing, tree hugging, peace monger I have ever really loved. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Let 'em know! We know how to really fight. These non-NPR siders are mere chump beginners in throwing around the insults and such... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I get moist when you have to be the calm and peaceful one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifYOU GO GIRL!!!</font color>

DeeMan
loves the way this lady dances although we step on each other's toes when the music speeds up.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
02-28-2007, 12:26 PM
Hey, now that's what I call a New Way Forward!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle

Fran Crimi
02-28-2007, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Jeezus. All I can see is that every last one of you is a bunch of whiny, hyper-sensitive putzes. Hope that's not too subtly condescending for anyone. <hr /></blockquote>

You bet it's condescending. And it's also incredibly ignorant. <hr /></blockquote> Well at least you're not gratuitously accusing me of being sexist (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244293&amp;page=2&amp;v iew=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=4) this time, as you did in one of your first posts to me. And unlike then, calling me condescending and incredibly ignorant was certainly deserved. I suppose that's progress. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Read the post again, pal. You linked to it, so read it. Check the part where I didn't accuse you. And while your at it, read your response where you say you're sexist.

Now quit splitting hairs and how about you start to post something worthwhile here for a change? Do you have anything at all worthwhile to contribute about pool, or are you just here to troll around and pass judgement on the rest of us? You've got a couple of thousand tips to post about how to improve your pool game to catch up to me, pal.

I'm done wasting my time posting with you. Have fun.

Gayle in MD
02-28-2007, 12:28 PM
Hey, I'm dancin' Deeman, I'm still dancin'!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran Crimi
02-28-2007, 01:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you, Jack. A casual observer would think exactly that, and a few casual observers have posted their feelings as a confirmation. Which is why I feel compelled to continue the discussion. If I'm going to make an ass of myself to a casual observer, he might as well know why.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

JMO, but I think we've come to the point where the clarifications are becoming muddied by other posts. I think you've been as clear as a bell, Fred. Don't let others try to convince you that you're not. I've said what I've needed to say on the subject and so have you. There isn't any need to keep reiterating the same thing over and over in different ways.

I'm sure you'll move on when you feel it's best for you, but for me, I'm moving on now.

Fran

BRussell
02-28-2007, 01:35 PM
So apparently it's all about thinking up the most belittling attack you can come up with, with absolutely no sense of self-deprecation or humor. OK.

The fact is, I wasn't familiar with your name, but I had just learned that you were an instructor and pro, and asked you a question... and am almost immediately accused, out of the blue, of being sexist. It mattered. I may be new here, but I can assure you that I've been a human being for quite some time. And yeah, you "asked me," just like you might ask someone if they kick puppies and steal candy from children.

BTW, don't think for a second that people like me don't see the posting habits of others, like dr. dave, come through loud and clear, and understand why people respond to it. Believe me, right from the username he chose, it comes through.

OK, now that I've made all the most prolific and respected posters on here hate me, it's back to pool. I have a match in a few hours. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
02-28-2007, 09:07 PM
Dave, you are becoming defensive and therefore not objective!
Did I say you knew nothing about pool? I thought I said " what does Dave know about pool?". There you go, misquoting again!
Didn't I say EARLIER that I actually directed pool players to YOUR SITE AS A USEFULL RESOURCE OF INFORMATION?

There is a big difference between knowing a lot about ball-to-ball collisions and instructing someone on how to better their game.
If you want to preach on this forum Dave, you will be challenged! Don't take it personally, not from me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
In my own, [subtle as a brick in the face manner /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif], I've tried to point you in the right direction but you always took it as as insult, just like now.

What you see now as of absolute importance will later on be considered as incidental.


Qtec.....not atacking, insulting etc. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

colincolenso
02-28-2007, 10:31 PM
I'd like to add my own 2c if ya'll don't mind. This is not directed at anyone in particular.

I consider myself a near-pro player, and while I continue to learn from watching the game and occassionally from the advice of pros, what they tell me, in most cases are things I already know.

But where I have learned a heck of a lot of useful information the past couple of years has been from guys like Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, JAL and the like.

A lot of Dave's recent work with throw has been highly illuminating. I consider his work to be quite ground-breaking and in the future he will leave a considerable legacy on the game.

There are areas of the game I wouldn't go to Dr. Dave for advice on, and I don't think he would be so pretentious to offer it, or claim authority in certain areas of performance. But as a pool player and thinking man he's well within his right to put in his 2c on any subject, as do hundreds of pool players of various abilities on the forums everyday.

I'm a big fan of Dr. Dave's work. I've also found him to be a very pleasant bloke. But I'm not in this to find his every flaw.... I'm just happy that his strengths and diligent work have provided so much useful information.

May peace reign /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Colin

Deeman3
03-01-2007, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hey, I'm dancin' Deeman, I'm still dancin'!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I actually still have a video of your moves, Gayle. I think provided by SPetty. Not bad, not bad at all... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

DeeMan
keep me honest...

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 08:28 AM
Tap Tap Tap, though I am a "Show Me" style student, and also, not drawn to a physics style approach to learning, I still enjoy reading Dr. Dave's information, and the usual mental struggle that follows, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Gayle in Md. Would love to see someone make a video where the pros have cameras attached to their heads!

Deeman3
03-01-2007, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD Would love to see someone make a video where the pros have cameras attached to their heads! [/quote:</font><hr>

<font color="blue"> Just remind them to turn them off when they go to the restroom! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

DeeMan

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 09:09 AM
Hmmm, hadn't thought of that, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, that could make things very interesting, for us gals, atleast /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, kind of borring for you guys, though, getting just a close up shot of the dirty bathroom floor, or the back of the door... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. Leave it to Deeman to think of that! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
03-01-2007, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote colincolenso:</font><hr> I'd like to add my own 2c if ya'll don't mind. This is not directed at anyone in particular.

I consider myself a near-pro player, and while I continue to learn from watching the game and occassionally from the advice of pros, what they tell me, in most cases are things I already know.

But where I have learned a heck of a lot of useful information the past couple of years has been from guys like Dr. Dave, Bob Jewett, JAL and the like.

A lot of Dave's recent work with throw has been highly illuminating. I consider his work to be quite ground-breaking and in the future he will leave a considerable legacy on the game.

There are areas of the game I wouldn't go to Dr. Dave for advice on, and I don't think he would be so pretentious to offer it, or claim authority in certain areas of performance. But as a pool player and thinking man he's well within his right to put in his 2c on any subject, as do hundreds of pool players of various abilities on the forums everyday.

I'm a big fan of Dr. Dave's work. I've also found him to be a very pleasant bloke. But I'm not in this to find his every flaw.... I'm just happy that his strengths and diligent work have provided so much useful information.

May peace reign /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Colin,

Thank you so much!!! You just made my day (and week, and month, and year)! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I have great respect for your level of play and for the quality of the instructional videos you have posted online, so reading a message like this from you is extremely flattering.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work,
Dave

eg8r
03-01-2007, 09:58 AM
I hear ya. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
03-01-2007, 10:03 AM
You are not supposed to do anything you don't want to. Lord knows you will fight tooth and nail if asked to anyway. People have said this to me many times to me so it is easy for me to recognize it in your posts, "maybe your intent is ok, your delivery just needs tons of work."

eg8r