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View Full Version : Percent English usage in pool-snooker Cont.



bradb
02-15-2007, 03:45 PM
This was my reply to Max in another thread. There were some interesting stats in there also from Jal, BRussell and others


Quote Cushion Crawler: For sure the top Ozz snooker players are happy to uze side for cushion shots (kicks?) and safetys, especially carom safetys. And, of course, the spin side of the ledger starts of at one-zip with the first shot of every frame, koz they all uze some running side off the pack. And, they all love to screw back with spin when too straight on the black (on its spot) to get pozzy on yellow (on its spot), just look at Ding's 147 video. So, yes, perhaps a true count would show say 5%. madMac.


(Reply Brad) No I can't go with 5%... here's my reasoning after consulting my guru and reading the leaves plus my own entrail fingering:

The snooker play we see in the big tourneys are the top players at the peak of their game, and we usually see only high-light games. Most games across the gamut of players are smaller runs with much more safety play... back down the table safetys, using running side to help with pace either off the rack or off a single red.

There are games where centurys are made with mostly stun, stun back and top. There are games which are safety battles to the colors. What I'm trying to do is set a mean average.

Lets say its 15% safety play with 85% potting per game. I'm guessing 3/4 of the safetys employ side so we would have 10% side usage.

A lot of play around the black is "top" to get back above the rack for another red. Many times slight inside top will bring QB a bit closer in instead of wide. Also some top inside is needed for off angle to the bottom rail to get out to the rack.

There's blue ball pot towards the "D" that needs side to clear the small colors.

There's small color potting that sometimes needs running side off the rail.

Lets say all above would be 20% total side usage.

Throw in anothe 5% for othere factors and we have the 25% first proposed by Dave.

Theres no statistics on this. But its a start.

Note: I'm basing my observation above on watching the Canadian Amateur Championships live.

I'm interested to see if other snooker players would revise this up or down.

bsmutz
02-15-2007, 04:36 PM
While I could by no means be considered a good snooker player, I know that I use a lot less side playing snooker than I do pool. I can't suggest a percentage, but usually I'm trying as hard as I can to make the pot and consequently try to hit center ball to eliminate any need to compensate. Bank (or double) shots I'll use side and shots on the blue or black where I want to go into the pack or run up table and back down will most likely have some side component. Most other instances are going to be check side to slow the cue ball down. If I had to make a rough guess, I'd go for 10-15% of my shots I'll use side. And usually we're talking a tip or less. Oh, I forgot one more. On very thin cuts I'll use quite a bit of inside to get the object ball to throw/spin towards the pocket or to keep from scratching. I guess preventing the scratch is another shot where I'll use side. I better quit now before I think of any others.

scaramouche
02-15-2007, 07:29 PM
I've been watching the Welsh Open. Some of the frames have been ugly layouts, and I noticed that many of the shots, to manouver the cue ball, used much side and aimed cheated the pocket to get the required angle.

So how much English is used? Depends. They can't all be draw, follow and stop shots.

bradb
02-16-2007, 03:00 PM
I agree. I still hold with at least 25%. maybe more.

Brad

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cushioncrawler
02-16-2007, 05:32 PM
I think that the original intention woz to find how often proz uze spin to pot a ball -- so, if we left out shots that dont involve an intentional pot, then what is the % then. And, here we shood allso leev out intentional pots to nothing, ie attempted pots where u dont really care if u miss, koz the main thing iz to run away to safety (which often needz spin to make sure that u find a gap).

But, conversely, me, myself, i uze spin when i dont uze spin. I aim dead (vertical) center on the qball, and the backswing iz dead straight, but the forwardswing has a flourish left (mainly) or right. Here i look like i'm not uzing spin, but i am uzing spin. My cue kumz up off my (vee) bridge, and the amount the cue finishes "off-line" givz away how much spin i uzed, if a spectator knows what to look for. Might seem silly, but Higgins plays like this, a top snooker player told me that Higgins discussed this with him. madMac.

bradb
02-16-2007, 08:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> I think that the original intention woz to find how often proz uze spin to pot a ball -- so, if we left out shots that dont involve an intentional pot, then what is the % then. And, here we shood allso leev out intentional pots to nothing, ie attempted pots where u dont really care if u miss, koz the main thing iz to run away to safety (which often needz spin to make sure that u find a gap).


But, conversely, me, myself, i uze spin when i dont uze spin. I aim dead (vertical) center on the qball, and the backswing iz dead straight, but the forwardswing has a flourish left (mainly) or right. Here i look like i'm not uzing spin, but i am uzing spin. My cue kumz up off my (vee) bridge, and the amount the cue finishes "off-line" givz away how much spin i uzed, if a spectator knows what to look for. Might seem silly, but Higgins plays like this, a top snooker player told me that Higgins discussed this with him. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>


I was factoring in all shots, I place 10% for potting but thats my play. Of course its all subjective its an imppossible stat to nail down.

Here's an interesting story Max!!

I read Ray Reardons book and seems he broke his shoulder working in the mines as a kid. He could'nt work so he took up snooker. His shoulder was never set right so his arm comes through crooked on his follow through, putting unatural side on every shot. So he had a special bent cue made to compensate. One day before a crucial final game he broke the cue!... He played the final using a borrowed straight cue but aiming off to allow for it. He lost, but he may be the first player ever to shoot 100% side for an intire snooker game! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cushioncrawler
02-18-2007, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> ....Here's an interesting story Max!! I read Ray Reardons book and seems he broke his shoulder working in the mines as a kid. He could'nt work so he took up snooker. His shoulder was never set right so his arm comes through crooked on his follow through, putting unatural side on every shot. So he had a special bent cue made to compensate. One day before a crucial final game he broke the cue!... He played the final using a borrowed straight cue but aiming off to allow for it. He lost, but he may be the first player ever to shoot 100% side for an intire snooker game! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> Bent cue ?? -- was that in Ray's book ?? -- I uzually remember any bent-cue stuff in books etc, koz i reckon that allmost everyone shood be uzing a bent cue.

In fact, even straight cues can act like a bent cue. My Vee-bridge leans right, so, a conical taper acts like a bend to the right, and iz allmost ok for me, ie shots go nearnuff "where i aim", and the qball haz nearnuff "zero spin". But, for me, a parallel taper acts like a straight cue, firm shots squirt off to the right, soft shots swerve to the left, and the qball allwayz haz lots of unintentional left spin.

But, dont forget, Willie Thorne allways uzes (uzed) spin for everyshot. In hiz book, Willie says that u shood aim 1mm or 2mm left or right on the qball to help overcome "not seeing the center of the qball" or to overcome "not hitting without unintentional spin". But i dont know whether that (problem) was the reason he allwayz hit off-center. I think that it had something to do with the modern kraps (ie krapamiths, probably the worst ball ever made) -- i reckon (and i think that Willie reckons) that "natural english" on the qball eliminates the bad throw that u get from mini-kicks (theze have been inklooded in the design of the kraps) and that u get from maxi-kicks, ie chalk kicks, which a are especially bad with kraps. madMac.

bradb
02-18-2007, 07:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote> Bent cue ?? -- was that in Ray's book ?? -- I uzually remember any bent-cue stuff in books etc, koz i reckon that allmost everyone shood be uzing a bent cue.

In fact, even straight cues can act like a bent cue. My Vee-bridge leans right, so, a conical taper acts like a bend to the right, and iz allmost ok for me, ie shots go nearnuff "where i aim", and the qball haz nearnuff "zero spin". But, for me, a parallel taper acts like a straight cue, firm shots squirt off to the right, soft shots swerve to the left, and the qball allwayz haz lots of unintentional left spin.
<hr /></blockquote>

Shonuff on that bent cue! Excpet Ray did'nt finish that last match, he forfeited. It was just to difficult to overcome. Later he took that split cue and patched it up and played with it again. Hard to believe he got a 147 with that patched up bent cue!

Don't know about recommending that for everybody...maybe my opponent! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Interesting comments on the other thread on snooker dead vertical cuing. With the center of the ball being much smaller and the slow nap we all leave vertical a little bit without loss of position.

When you watch Thorburns old videos you can see a lot of that happening. He was the master of the short stroke, some times in close he would'nt pull it back more than 2 inches, but you could see clearly the side he liked to fine tune with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bradb
02-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Max, check this out, This player discovered he had Rays (broken shoulder) crooked aim but he thinks Ray played that way on purpose. Brad

www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/bridge_arm_and_cue_arm/bridge_arm_cue_arm.htm (http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/bridge_arm_and_cue_arm/bridge_arm_cue_arm.htm)