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dr_dave
02-18-2007, 03:09 PM
from a previous thread (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=245185&page =0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1):
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote colincolenso:</font><hr>... I think a lot of pros use gearing outside english on nearly all shots that are slightly angled which don't require other english for position. This includes a lot of snooker pros and some of them are not even conscious that they are doing so.

The amount of offset can vary too, so defining what is a shot with english and what isn't is difficult.

We could assume that shots with english are though where english is consciously put on the CB, but here the numbers would be significantly lower than the truth, because many players are not conscious they are applying english, when in actuality they are. ...<hr /></blockquote>
Colin,

Thank you for your message. I wish you would contribute more on our forum. Your experience and insight are a welcome addition to the CCB.

Concerning outside English (OE), what do you and others think are the primary reasons why it might be so popular?

An obvious advantage is that gearing OE can entirely eliminate throw, if just the right amount is used (see my January '07 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf)). Throw can vary with cut angle, speed, vertical plane spin, and ball conditions, sometimes resulting in an excessive and unanticipatable amount of throw, called "cling." So it makes sense to try to eliminate all of these uncertainties if possible. But it can be difficult to have a feel for the exact amount of OE to use for different shots; although, this feel can probably be developed fairly easily. As long as one is just a little off with the amount of OE, the amount of throw could still be small enough to be a non-factor. (If people want more information, illustrations, and examples of everything mentioned in this paragraph, see my October '06 through February '07 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

So eliminating throw as a variable is a good thing, but the problem is that English also introduces squirt and swerve. Now, if the cue stick is as horizontal as possible (i.e., not elevated), and firm speed is used, swerve won't be much of a factor (but it can be in many pool shots). Concerning squirt, a low-squirt cue can help minimize the effect, and back-hand English (or front-hand English) techniques can be used to help compensate (as you have demonstrated in your online video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0&amp;eurl=)). However, for many shots, squirt and swerve effects might require significant compensation.

If cling is not much of a concern, and a player has a good feel for throw effects, maybe throw compensation (with aim adjustment) could be more straightforward than squirt/swerve/gearing OE compensation.

The other problem with relying on gearing OE to eliminate throw is that OE might not be appropriate for the shot, based on position play requirements (e.g., to get position on the next shot, inside or no English might be required instead). So it seems one needs to able to compensate for throw anyway to be able to have a full arsenal of shots. Now, if you don't need English for position on a particular shot, this is a moot point.

Any more thoughts (from you or others)?
Dave

wolfdancer
02-18-2007, 03:31 PM
You might have to correct me on this....but while cling and throw are bandied about..I think the combination of two different forces(as in vector analysis) acting on a cut shot on the O.B. are what really determine it's final path.
And OE acts to lessen the greater of the two forces (the X axis). Also seems to me that OE is more effective on cut shots of around 30' or less.
This principle wasn't covered in my GED course....however my observation is that the angle can also be increased by speed.
Now if I'm completely wrong....take it easy on me, should you care to respond....I'm a card-carrying member of AARP...and if you don't want mass pickets by seniors outside your classroom....

cushioncrawler
02-18-2007, 03:45 PM
Dr Dave -- I agree. I would add -- OE etc might be difficult to judge etc, but, at least u are safe from a mini-kick (small invizible kick) or a maxi-kick (big chalk-kick) spoiling the objectball's angle. But, to be really safe, u havta add a bit to the pace of the shot, koz a kick will still rob pace from the objectball -- here i am talking about a rolling qball, a stunshot or drawshot wouldnt need any such extra pace.

In English Billiards, OE is especially handy when potting the Red into a corner-pocket off its Spot, koz, many spots are slighty sunken (or something), and, with the modern soft light shiny kraps (krapamiths), u nowadayz can get a "spot-kick". A spot-kick is a 3rd type of kick, that plagues billiards players -- and, the remedy is the same, ie use OE (plus extra pace).

I often use OE when potting the Red off its spot. Its like this. To pot Red, i basically hit (or aim) either full-ball, 3/4 ball, 1/2 ball, or 1/4 ball. If i feel that the pot needs between say 3/4 ball and 1/2 ball, i can either aim and set-up 3/4 ball, then (perhaps without mooving the bridge) moov the aim (qtip) over a bit to give OE (and then shoot) -- or, i aim and set-up 1/2 ball then moov the qtip over a bit to give inside english. But, in fact, i never (if i can help it) aim "thin" then uze inside-english -- I allwayz aim "thick" and then uze OE, koz OE (plus a bit of extra pace) protects me from unavoidable "mini-kicks", "maxi-kicks", and "spot-kicks".

A little prayer.... "God, pleez get rid of the modern krap-ballz, its Hell down here". madMac.

colincolenso
02-18-2007, 06:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Concerning outside English (OE), what do you and others think are the primary reasons why it might be so popular?
<hr /></blockquote>

I think there are a few reasons why players come to adapt OE either consciously or sub-consciously over time.

The most primal is probably the tendency to point the cue toward the pot contact point as a beginner. A tendency that causes cut shots to be hit too thick. To compensate this alignment error, many begginers and intermediate players swipe across the CB on execution, moving the CB to a finer cut angle and adding OE to the CB.

Go watch some low - medium players in a bar or club and you'll see a lot of this on cut shots.

As the player advances, they become better at alignment, but start finding that hitting the exact contact point is not guarantee of success. An example is the medium speed stun shot on a 10-30 degree cut shot. A very common shot.

I believe that most of them learn intuitively to pot this shot with a touch of OE, as this send the OB into the center of the pocket and makes positional play more predicatble.

Some swipe slightly, hence requiring a fraction less OE and others align with a touch more OE and cue in a straight line.

Much of this is intuitive I believe. Players sometimes know they are doing it, but just think it is a quirky habit. It just feels like a more predictable way to play the shot.

Of course there are players who look more deeply into it and discover that the methodology makes some sense and can help to prevent bad kick effects as mentioned by MadMac.

That's my 2c on it anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Colin

wolfdancer
02-18-2007, 08:39 PM
We said the same thing (I think) only difference was your reply made sense.
In my case...the first book I read was "99 shots..." and somehow got the idea that one added OE to all cut shots. Played a few years that way and compensated a bit different then normal folks....I aimed a couple of inches too full, and "threw" the ball in (my Mama didn't raise no smart pool players) Even won a few tournaments playing that way. As a side note ...Mike Sigal aimed "too full" on force follow shots, and let the increased power widen the angle to make the shot.
I managed to dl your power draw video from the'net....made a copy for a friend that does not have broadband.....he is a BCA Master player...tough to beat...yet even with all his experience....says the technique has really helped improve his break.

dr_dave
02-18-2007, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> You might have to correct me on this....but while cling and throw are bandied about..I think the combination of two different forces(as in vector analysis) acting on a cut shot on the O.B. are what really determine it's final path.<hr /></blockquote>Sounds like an OK way to think about it to me. One force is the main impact force along the line of centers. The other is the throw force created by cut angle (CIT) and/or English (SIT).
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>And OE acts to lessen the greater of the two forces (the X axis). Also seems to me that OE is more effective on cut shots of around 30' or less.<hr /></blockquote>OE can be perfectly effective (i.e., throw-less "gearing") at any cut angle. However, the OB can be thrown in either direction with different amounts of OE. See my January '07 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf) for illustrations and more information.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>This principle wasn't covered in my GED course....however my observation is that the angle can also be increased by speed.<hr /></blockquote>Several of my recent articles on throw (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) look at speed effects if you want more information.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Now if I'm completely wrong....take it easy on me, should you care to respond....I'm a card-carrying member of AARP...and if you don't want mass pickets by seniors outside your classroom....<hr /></blockquote>Was I gentle enough?

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-18-2007, 09:48 PM
Thanks for the links!!!
not only were you gentle enough....you were gentlemanly enough not to mention that I had mixed up my X and Y axis in my explanation.
I'll call off the mass picketing.

dr_dave
02-19-2007, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Thanks for the links!!!
not only were you gentle enough....you were gentlemanly enough not to mention that I had mixed up my X and Y axis in my explanation.
I'll call off the mass picketing.<hr /></blockquote>
That is very gracious of you. I think you're starting to get the hang of the mutual-respect peace-and-love thing. If only everybody did, the world might be a better place (even if more boring).

Have a wonderful day,
Dave

PS: I feel like a John Lennon peace-and-love-follower this morning. I think the reason is I spent much of the weekend learning his song "Imagine" on the piano ... awesome tune with a great message. Maybe I shouldn't have told you this. Now you might think you know where to place me on your NPR scale. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

BRussell
02-19-2007, 09:19 AM
One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice?

dr_dave
02-19-2007, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Good point. Yet another reason why English might be appropriate.

Regards,
Dave

bradb
02-19-2007, 10:57 AM
Dave, or anybody interested, I posted this to Max on another issue but it has some relevance here.

I used to wonder why I over cut shots when cutting a shot to my right to go down table (I'm right handed) but not so much to my left. This site shows clearly a positioning situation of the shoulder over the stance. In my case my shoulder was bent out.

When cutting right because I had my arm in closer to my body with my off line shoulder I swerved out to far. When left, my body was leaning out a bit. I did'nt know my shoulder was bent so I corrected by aiming to the left of the pocket, but then I noticed I was also having trouble getting enough OE. I was'nt able to get out of this mode until I discovered this bad shoulder position I had. Some players may have this quirk and not even know it.

The author of this site states that it did not effect his potting, but not the case for me. I still made a shot but for all the wrong reasons.

Incidenatlly Thorburn, Reardon had injuries (I took a header off a bike) in their youth which caused them to shoot that way.

www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/bridge_arm_and_cue_arm/bridge_arm_cue_arm.htm (http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/bridge_arm_and_cue_arm/bridge_arm_cue_arm.htm)

Post Extras:

Stretch
02-19-2007, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

Russell, that's a good tactic, up to a point and then outside english encourages cue ball drift so it's use is limited to full ball type shots where you can really kill the cueball on contact. On slight angles i wonder if inside english wouldn't even check the cue ball up some even if it meant taking a fraction thinner cut? I mean look at how much you can slow the cb down with inside english when it touches a rail. I'm thinking that the same effect (only to a much smaller degree) would happen with ball to ball contact where the cb grabs the ob spinning in the opposite direction of it's travel. At any rate "most" decisions on english i make are because the cueball will be going into the rail and i want to control the first rail for position. Other than that i usually hit with about a half a tip of outside english (blended with follow or draw, depending on where i'm going) for almost every shot. I get a cleaner hit and the little spin negates any ball induced throw. St.

bsmutz
02-19-2007, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>
It is for me, but I don't see many others using it. Quite often I'll back cut a ball to the side pocket using inside. Turning the cue ball loose is the down side, but sometimes there's a clear path or a ball on the rail to slow or stop the cue ball so that things are more predictable. Other times you just have to hope for a good roll. If you can judge the compensation correctly, inside english works well for shots where the object ball is near the corner pocket and the cue ball is uptable on the nearest long rail but the object ball is too far out to cut it into the nearest pocket. I'll use inside to cut it into the other corner on the same end of the table. The inside keeps the cue ball from scratching up at the other end. It is easy to cut it too much here, though.

SPetty
02-19-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I managed to dl your power draw video from the'net....made a copy for a friend that does not have broadband.....he is a BCA Master player...tough to beat...yet even with all his experience....says the technique has really helped improve his break. <hr /></blockquote>Wish I had a friend like you around here!

dr_dave
02-19-2007, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I managed to dl your power draw video from the'net....made a copy for a friend that does not have broadband.....he is a BCA Master player...tough to beat...yet even with all his experience....says the technique has really helped improve his break. <hr /></blockquote>Wish I had a friend like you around here! <hr /></blockquote>SPetty,

What are you implying here?

Colin's videos, like mine, are posted on YouTube and other websites for people to view at no cost. As long as somebody doesn't try to re-package and sell them, there is no offense.

Or did I misunderstand your implications?

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-19-2007, 01:04 PM
I'm guessing you don't have broadband. Colin's site alone is almost worth the extra cost.
I bought that OB-1 shaft on your recommendation....great shaft, just never "fit my eye" with the smaller diam. tip.
Lent it out a couple of weeks ago to a good young player, to try out....and he's in "love" with the shaft...came in second in his first tournament after using it for just a few days...
Now, how do I get it back?????

SPetty
02-19-2007, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> What are you implying here?

Colin's videos, like mine, are posted on YouTube and other websites for people to view at no cost. As long as somebody doesn't try to re-package and sell them, there is no offense.

Or did I misunderstand your implications?<hr /></blockquote>I live way out in the country with no high speed internet access. I have dialup internet access. Watching YouTube or other video is impossible for me.

I think that there are a lot of folks still on dialup. Has anyone seen the stats on that?

wolfdancer
02-19-2007, 01:20 PM
Dr. Dave, I think we're talking broadband Vs dial-up here.
By the way, the video quality was terrible....but good enough to get the gist of Colin's message across.
I'm hoping Colin gets that better camera.....
Just took a few photos of my friend and I at the local Golf course, and my inexpensive Fuji, takes great pictures, and not bad short videos, for internet posting.
But my little DVD digicam...under $500, takes great videos.

Jal
02-19-2007, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Not to be a spoilsport BRussell, but both of these techniques are more myth than reality at typical ball separations. Under normal circumstances, either one, but especially the second, will likely yield the opposite of the intended effect.

Jim

bradb
02-19-2007, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.


It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Not to be a spoilsport BRussell, but both of these techniques are more myth than reality at typical ball separations. Under normal circumstances, either one, but especially the second, will likely yield the opposite of the intended effect.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

I think that OE will add drift. Inside stun makes the shot a little tougher and doesn't seem to stop it much better than slight below center stun.

colincolenso
02-19-2007, 06:19 PM
Hi WD,
Yes, I've got access to a better camera now, but I'm still waiting to set up my table in Australia.

At the time I had several people asking me to explain aspects of BHE, Breaking and throw so I put up a few videos using my mobile, which communicated the message but looked pretty crap. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Also hope to put out some low cost DVD's of instructional stuff when I put more together, as there are a lot of people out there who don't have access to broadband or who want to see stuff in higher res on a DVD player.

Cheers,
Colin

BRussell
02-19-2007, 06:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Not to be a spoilsport BRussell, but both of these techniques are more myth than reality at typical ball separations. Under normal circumstances, either one, but especially the second, will likely yield the opposite of the intended effect.

Jim <hr /></blockquote> Eh? Let's say the cue ball is aiming the object ball straight at the left point of the side pocket. Hit the object ball full, but use left english, and it will throw into the pocket. That's not only in every book I've ever read about pool, but it's very easy to replicate on a table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Stretch
02-19-2007, 07:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Not to be a spoilsport BRussell, but both of these techniques are more myth than reality at typical ball separations. Under normal circumstances, either one, but especially the second, will likely yield the opposite of the intended effect.

Jim <hr /></blockquote> Eh? Let's say the cue ball is aiming the object ball straight at the left point of the side pocket. Hit the object ball full, but use left english, and it will throw into the pocket. That's not only in every book I've ever read about pool, but it's very easy to replicate on a table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Russell, i think they may have been referring to the cue ball movement after contact aspect of the shot. I don't think there is any doubts about the legitimacy of throwing an ob into a pocket. It just makes sense to do it this way on slight angles because it is far better to "intentionally" do something to the cue ball rather than aim up for a centre ball hit. The danger with centre ball is if you miss centre by even a little bit on the wrong side your going to spoil the shot. St.

Jal
02-19-2007, 10:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.

It occurs to me that the reverse happens too: You want more of an angle than you have. I suppose one could use inside english in that situation, to cut the ball thinner and let the cue ball travel further, but it's never entered my mind to use it in that fashion. Is this a common practice? <hr /></blockquote>Not to be a spoilsport BRussell, but both of these techniques are more myth than reality at typical ball separations. Under normal circumstances, either one, but especially the second, will likely yield the opposite of the intended effect.

Jim <hr /></blockquote> Eh? Let's say the cue ball is aiming the object ball straight at the left point of the side pocket. Hit the object ball full, but use left english, and it will throw into the pocket. That's not only in every book I've ever read about pool, but it's very easy to replicate on a table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>It's just that you don't get the change in post-impact cueball speed that you might expect from the change in cut angle that the throw allows. The throw itself, acting in the opposite direction on the cueball, cancels much of the effect of the altered cut angle. And what remains is further depleted by swerve in the case of trying to slow the cueball down by lessening the cut angle with outside english, or by the loss of cueball speed when applying inside english for the purpose of increasing cut angle and post-impact velocity.

As I mentioned, this is for typical ball separations. I've used both techniques and practiced the second one somewhat, all the while believing that it was doing something useful. But I'm pretty convinced now that it's just a fancy way of cheating the pocket, better done directly rather than complicating it with english, which doesn't gain you anything anyway, typically.

Using outside to reduce the cut angle is a bit more effective because there are situations where you have to hit firmly, say to avoid rolloff. Since you're not going to see much swerve when the balls aren't too far away from each other, it is more useful here.

Jim

Bob_Jewett
02-20-2007, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.
... <hr /></blockquote>
A test for this effect is described at http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif

The idea of the test is to see how far the cue ball can be from the object ball and still make the object ball and cue ball move to the same side of the line they're on. An alternative that is more in line with your idea is to remove the blocker ball and to shoot the object ball into the far pocket without the cue ball ending more than a ball diameter from the cushion.

Those who believe in "outside english to kill tbe cue ball on a cut shot" may be surprised by the results of this test.

BRussell
02-20-2007, 12:51 PM
Bob, Jim, and Stretch - Now I see where you're all coming from. All I can say is "wow, that's a surprise" and I'm looking forward to getting to a table to take a second look. It sure seems to me intuitively that if you hit the ball more full, you're going to have less cue ball movement, but I guess it shows how you have to be skeptical of your own perceptions and experience.

dr_dave
02-24-2007, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>I live way out in the country with no high speed internet access. I have dialup internet access. Watching YouTube or other video is impossible for me.

I think that there are a lot of folks still on dialup. Has anyone seen the stats on that?<hr /></blockquote>SPetty,

I've been curious about this every since you posted this message, so I decided to post a poll hoping to get some rough stats. You can find it here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245741&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1). Please participate in the poll. I hope many others will also.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 01:53 PM
FYI, I just posted a poll (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245901&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) to get a feel for how many people use outside English to try to eliminate throw (the topic of this thread). Please respond to the poll (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245901&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1).

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

dr_dave
05-18-2007, 10:15 AM
Bob and others,

FYI, I just posted an analysis (TP A.29 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-29.pdf)), with illustrations and plots, that explains one of the reasons why cue-ball-to-object-ball distance makes a big difference in the ability to kill cue-ball motion on a cut shot. Other reasons related to drag control and swerve are also described in my July '07 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

I hope some of the throw non-believers out there will try Bob's test. At small distances with slow-speed stun, with about 50% English, the effect of throw is irrefutable and dramatic. For the physics/math crowd out there, TP A.29 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-29.pdf) provides the detailed proof and explanation.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One of the reasons I've used outside english to make a ball is to minimize cue ball drift. If I want to be straight in for a stop shot but I'm a few degrees off (seems to happen a lot) I'll use outside english to throw the ball in.
... <hr /></blockquote>
A test for this effect is described at http://www.sfbilliards.com/throwtest.gif

The idea of the test is to see how far the cue ball can be from the object ball and still make the object ball and cue ball move to the same side of the line they're on. An alternative that is more in line with your idea is to remove the blocker ball and to shoot the object ball into the far pocket without the cue ball ending more than a ball diameter from the cushion.

Those who believe in "outside english to kill tbe cue ball on a cut shot" may be surprised by the results of this test. <hr /></blockquote>