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dave
02-23-2007, 04:43 PM
On a 9ft. table with VERY tight pockets, which do you believe will give you the better pocketing percentage (and WHY?): aiming at the center of the pocket, or aiming at the inner pocket facing?
I have heard conflicting opinions on this. I believe Bob Jewett did an article not too long ago related to this.

dr_dave
02-23-2007, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> On a 9ft. table with VERY tight pockets, which do you believe will give you the better pocketing percentage (and WHY?): aiming at the center of the pocket, or aiming at the inner pocket facing?
I have heard conflicting opinions on this. I believe Bob Jewett did an article not too long ago related to this. <hr /></blockquote>This depends on angle to the pocket, shot speed, and whether it is a side or corner pocket. Bob did write some stuff on this a while back. Maybe he can provide links for you. I also wrote a series of articles on this topic. If you are interested, check out my November '04 through January '05 instructional articles here (http://http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

Regards,
Dave

jjinfla
02-23-2007, 07:07 PM
I would believe that the aiming is the same except that you have a lot less room for error. Most people aim for a straight line to a spot in the pocket but do not have the skill to follow that line exactly. On sloppy big pockets you can be off that line by an inch and still make the ball.

Rich R.
02-23-2007, 07:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I would believe that the aiming is the same except that you have a lot less room for error. <hr /></blockquote>
Jake, I think you have said it all.

cushioncrawler
02-23-2007, 11:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> On a 9ft. table with VERY tight pockets, which do you believe will give you the better pocketing percentage (and WHY?): aiming at the center of the pocket, or aiming at the inner pocket facing? I have heard conflicting opinions on this. I believe Bob Jewett did an article not too long ago related to this. <hr /></blockquote> Dave -- I wonder what u mean by "center of the pocket". This term would be unambiguous if the OB woz directly in front of the pocket, ie a 45dg pot, but for other angles what iz the center ???

And, i wonder what u mean by "aiming". I know that for me i virtually never aim for anything. In English billiards i uzually "feel the shot". For example, for a long-loozer, qball in-hand, i can eezyly place the qball to give the correct deflexion angle to enter a corner pocket without touching the sides. And, i can alter that placing a bit to make sure i hit say the far jaw first. But at no stage do i ever feel like i am aiming for the "center of the pocket" or whatever.

Throo hours of praktis i have built up a big folio of "photoz" of "good" angles. I see the qball, the OB, and the pocket, and if everything feels ok, i shoot. And, beforehand, i can nominate whether the qball will go in clean, or touch the far jaw or near jaw first. But i never "aim".

And, my "feel" must be related to the "center of the pocket", or the effective center, even if i dont know where that center really iz, and even if i have never actually thort of the concept of "center". Koz, my folio of "good" angles and pozzyz haz automatically refined my photos over the years to correlate to the "center", by trial and error, mainly by error. "U learn by missing" i allwayz say, and "i am learning a lot today", i allwayz say.

And, u can set up an identical ball to ball carom, replacing the aforementioned pocket with a 2nd OB, ie a shot needing exactly the same angle as the long-loozer i woz talking about. Now, here, i wouldnt have much of a clue whether i woz going to hit the 2nd OB dead-center, or on the left side, or on the right side, koz, my folio of photoz duznt inklood many caroms (cannons). Koz, i dont "aim", in fact i reckon that there iznt any such thing az "aim", even if u do devote your life to simply "potting balls". madMac.

JimS
02-23-2007, 11:41 PM
I play/practice on my 9 ft Diamond Pro with corner pockets of 4.5".... tight enough.

I aim for the center of the opening as it exists from the position of the ob. I stand behind the ob, look at the opening and find the center, look at the angle to the pocket, go back to stand behind the cb and aim the cb at the ob so that the ob will hit that pinpoint spot in the center of the available opening. Then get down to shoot. With the deep shelves there's not a lot of room for error.

Billy_Bob
02-24-2007, 05:44 AM
On my tight pocket 7 ft. table, I played on it for a year or so and just got adjusted to it.

I think it is just something you develop with time. A skill. The human body is an amazing thing. Over time you adapt to things.

These days I play on it just like I used to play on a regular pocket table. (Or so it seems - actually my aim is much more accurate) But I don't feel like I am aiming any more accurately or anything. I am just playing. Don't think about it any differently than when playing on a regular pockets table.

dr_dave
02-24-2007, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I would believe that the aiming is the same except that you have a lot less room for error. Most people aim for a straight line to a spot in the pocket but do not have the skill to follow that line exactly. On sloppy big pockets you can be off that line by an inch and still make the ball.<hr /></blockquote>No disagreements here. Well stated!

Dave

cushioncrawler
02-24-2007, 04:50 PM
This iz what i did. I made a biggish ramp, and rolled a ball into the left and right jaws of a corner pocket (and a mid-pocket) from varyus spots on a fixed radius around the pocket, ie for varyus angles, and for each spot i marked and measured the trajectoryz that defined the left and right limits of the pocket, ie trajectoryz where about half of the balls (rolls) fell and half jawed out. I then drew a graph showing the effective size of the pocket for each angle, and i drew a drawing showing the effective center of the pocket for each angle.

But, like i allready said, i dont make much use of any of this info in actual play, i uze feel. What it did tell me iz that on my table, the corner pockets have a slightly wider effective size (92mm at 42dg) than the mid-pockets (86.9mm at 90dg), and for other angles of attack the figures were 00dg (37.8mm, 00mm), 20dg (61mm, 00mm), 30dg (79mm, 23mm), 45dg (89.7mm, 46mm).

Two strange things, the widest effective size of a corner pocket iznt from dead in front (ie from 45dg), it is wider, from about 42dg. At first i thort that my pocket was cut (shaped) badly, ie non-symetrical, but then i remembered that for a napped bed-cloth a rolling ball haz lots of natural (unavoidable) sidespin, and this explains why 45dg aint the eezyst angle.

The other strange thing woz that the most difficult angle towards a corner pocket woznt along the cushion, ie 00dg attack (effective pocket size here iz 37.8mm), it woz at about 4dg (30mm). madMac.

dr_dave
02-24-2007, 05:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> This iz what i did. I made a biggish ramp, and rolled a ball into the left and right jaws of a corner pocket (and a mid-pocket) from varyus spots on a fixed radius around the pocket, ie for varyus angles, and for each spot i marked and measured the trajectoryz that defined the left and right limits of the pocket, ie trajectoryz where about half of the balls (rolls) fell and half jawed out. I then drew a graph showing the effective size of the pocket for each angle, and i drew a drawing showing the effective center of the pocket for each angle.

But, like i allready said, i dont make much use of any of this info in actual play, i uze feel. What it did tell me iz that on my table, the corner pockets have a slightly wider effective size (92mm at 42dg) than the mid-pockets (86.9mm at 90dg), and for other angles of attack the figures were 00dg (37.8mm, 00mm), 20dg (61mm, 00mm), 30dg (79mm, 23mm), 45dg (89.7mm, 46mm).

Two strange things, the widest effective size of a corner pocket iznt from dead in front (ie from 45dg), it is wider, from about 42dg. At first i thort that my pocket was cut (shaped) badly, ie non-symetrical, but then i remembered that for a napped bed-cloth a rolling ball haz lots of natural (unavoidable) sidespin, and this explains why 45dg aint the eezyst angle.

The other strange thing woz that the most difficult angle towards a corner pocket woznt along the cushion, ie 00dg attack (effective pocket size here iz 37.8mm), it woz at about 4dg (30mm). madMac.<hr /></blockquote>I did the same thing, but with math and physics ... I never got around to trying experiments ... too much work. My November '04 through January '05 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) have lots of good illustrations explaining the results and implications. Please check out my theoretical plots and let me know if your data agrees.

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
02-24-2007, 05:18 PM
Hi Dr Dave -- I think i sent u Chapter 71 from Cushion Crawler's Bible a few months ago -- page 20 shows the graphs for a mid-pocket and for a corner-pocket -- but theze are for English templates for 2-1/16" balls on a 12' table. Actually, the pockets on my table are not cut exactly to the proper templates -- they have just a little bit of a squarish pool table look about them. If u karnt find Chapter 71 i will send again. I will check out your stuff and report back. madMac.

BRussell
02-24-2007, 06:00 PM
One theory that I've heard, but can't really vouch for except that it sounds like a good idea, is to imagine a ghost ball right in front of the center of the pocket, about to fall in. If you try to shoot through that, you'll actually be aiming at the far back wall of the pocket if you're straight in, and of course the side of the inside of the pocket if you're at an angle.

I believe I read that technique in Phil Cappelle's book.

dr_dave
02-24-2007, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> One theory that I've heard, but can't really vouch for except that it sounds like a good idea, is to imagine a ghost ball right in front of the center of the pocket, about to fall in. If you try to shoot through that, you'll actually be aiming at the far back wall of the pocket if you're straight in, and of course the side of the inside of the pocket if you're at an angle.

I believe I read that technique in Phil Cappelle's book. <hr /></blockquote>That's a good basic theory that applies well to pocket speed shots into side pockets. The story is a bit different for fast speed shots into corner pockets. See my November '04 through January '05 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) for illustrations and examples.

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
02-24-2007, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> .....I did the same thing, but with math and physics ... I never got around to trying experiments ... too much work. My November '04 through January '05 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) have lots of good illustrations explaining the results and implications. Please check out my theoretical plots and let me know if your data agrees.... <hr /></blockquote>Dr Dave -- All of your margin-for-error stuff looks good to me. My ramp tests n measurements were for a 12' table and a napped bedcloth and wouldnt be very comparable. I like your method of graphing the MFE by taking a direct shot az 00dg, i will have to re-do my graphed rezults likewize. I think that actual tests would be worth doing, there might be some surprizes, with the 12' table its amazing how much of the jaw a ball can get yet still drop.

I prefer "Margin-For-Error", just to be different. I think that in a few places u say that the pot is more difficult the further away from the pocket u moov the OB, or words to that effect, but this would read better if one said "the closer the OB iz mooved to the midpoint between the qball and pocket", koz we all of course know that once past the midpoint, the pot gets eezyr az the OB gets closer to the qball, and, when the OB iz say 10mm from the qball, a dead-straight pot is unmissable (if u can avoid the foul).

Perhaps there could be more emphasis (or a clearer distinction) on (between) the 2 different Margins For Error, ie the MFE (dg mainly) for the OB, and the MFE (dg mainly) for the qball.

Re the contours for shot difficulty, i think that these were mainly based on the OB MFE, and these would be very different from contours for qball MFE (if these could be eezyly shown). madMac.

DickLeonard
02-24-2007, 10:26 PM
Dave tight pocket tables calls for more exacting position. Under no circumstances are you to get straight on a shot and never get on the wrong side of the objectball to get position.####

Qtec
02-24-2007, 11:08 PM
Dave, how can I put it.? I disagree?



Quote jjinfla:
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I would believe that the aiming is the same except that you have a lot less room for error. <font color="blue"> Meaning that there is less magin of error for smaller pockets? WOW. Thats a revelation! </font color> Most people aim for a straight line to a spot in the pocket but do not have the skill to follow that line exactly. <font color="blue"> Strictly speaking, most people aim for a point on the OB or a point in space. </font color> On sloppy big pockets you can be off that line by an inch and still make the ball. <font color="blue">Strictly speaking that depends on how far away the OB is from the pocket and where you are aiming! </font color>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No disagreements here. Well stated!

Dave




Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif .........and I won't even mention throw! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Dave, read the posts of Fran and Fred again.
Fred has been on the Net for a zillion years- forgive him for being so direct but don,t dismiss his comments because he actually IS a smart cookie with a huge knowledge of the game - and forum etiquete /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
Fran is super-subtle. Fran never gives the answer dirct. She gives you the clues, the hints and the push if need be but YOU have to make the connectrion.

Let,s face it Dave, if the CCB actually WAS a pool hall, where would you put yourself on the ranking of people who should /would be listned to?
No offence intended Dave.

I worked in pool halls /snooker halls for almost /at least 20 years. I reckon thatr is at least 50,000 hours observing great players. Add in the time that I played with and worked with profs- the hours that I spent training, playing tourneys, club matches [ I still play! ]end training others I reckon that I have spent 1/2 my life [ more]addicted to balls and pockets.
If anyone asks me in the club about pool physics I direct them to your site. If they want to improve their game , they can better come to me.

Q ......... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

dr_dave
02-25-2007, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Hi Dr Dave -- I think i sent u Chapter 71 from Cushion Crawler's Bible a few months ago -- page 20 shows the graphs for a mid-pocket and for a corner-pocket -- but theze are for English templates for 2-1/16" balls on a 12' table. Actually, the pockets on my table are not cut exactly to the proper templates -- they have just a little bit of a squarish pool table look about them. If u karnt find Chapter 71 i will send again. I will check out your stuff and report back. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure if I have your Chapter 71 or not. I'll check when I get to my office. Do you ever plan to publish your book and/or make it available on the web so people can access it? I would certainly like a full copy if it ever comes out in print.

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
02-25-2007, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Hi Dr Dave -- I think i sent u Chapter 71 from Cushion Crawler's Bible a few months ago -- page 20 shows the graphs for a mid-pocket and for a corner-pocket -- but theze are for English templates for 2-1/16" balls on a 12' table. Actually, the pockets on my table are not cut exactly to the proper templates -- they have just a little bit of a squarish pool table look about them. If u karnt find Chapter 71 i will send again. I will check out your stuff and report back. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure if I have your Chapter 71 or not. I'll check when I get to my office. Do you ever plan to publish your book and/or make it available on the web so people can access it? I would certainly like a full copy if it ever comes out in print. Regards, Dave <hr /></blockquote> Dr Dave -- I think i would have sent Chapters 71, 75, 76, 77, and 78. Theze chapters include some physics relating mainly to English billiards, and napped cloths. The Cushion Crawler'z Bible is mainly about the play of nursery cannons, ie what folks in the USA would call "straight rail". I snuck in the physics bits even tho most of it iz irrelevent to nurseryz. I did run off 100 copyz, all sold (or given away), and i was planning to run off another 50 later in 2007 (after the house is finished), so i will havta swap a copy for one of your books after then. If anyone thinks that they might be interested i would be happy to send (email) them the above chapters (free of course) and a list of my other articles (must be 50 ovem) which are sleeping in my computer (actally, i dont think that i have a list??). My aim is to put the Bible and theze other (physics etc) articles on the web free, sooner or later. madMac.

BigRigTom
02-25-2007, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Hi Dr Dave -- I think i sent u Chapter 71 from Cushion Crawler's Bible a few months ago -- page 20 shows the graphs for a mid-pocket and for a corner-pocket -- but theze are for English templates for 2-1/16" balls on a 12' table. Actually, the pockets on my table are not cut exactly to the proper templates -- they have just a little bit of a squarish pool table look about them. If u karnt find Chapter 71 i will send again. I will check out your stuff and report back. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure if I have your Chapter 71 or not. I'll check when I get to my office. Do you ever plan to publish your book and/or make it available on the web so people can access it? I would certainly like a full copy if it ever comes out in print. Regards, Dave <hr /></blockquote> Dr Dave -- I think i would have sent Chapters 71, 75, 76, 77, and 78. Theze chapters include some physics relating mainly to English billiards, and napped cloths. The Cushion Crawler'z Bible is mainly about the play of nursery cannons, ie what folks in the USA would call "straight rail". I snuck in the physics bits even tho most of it iz irrelevent to nurseryz. I did run off 100 copyz, all sold (or given away), and i was planning to run off another 50 later in 2007 (after the house is finished), so i will havta swap a copy for one of your books after then. If anyone thinks that they might be interested i would be happy to send (email) them the above chapters (free of course) and a list of my other articles (must be 50 ovem) which are sleeping in my computer (actally, i dont think that i have a list??). My aim is to put the Bible and theze other (physics etc) articles on the web free, sooner or later. madMac.<hr /></blockquote>

CushionCrawler!
I would love to have those chapters....I am no super brain on this stuff like you guys but I do have a degree in Computer Science so I am not a complete idiot either.
I will gladly read them and if you want my commnets about them I will also gladly give you those.
Just email to Tom@BigRigToys.com

If you are interested in "Self Publishing" the book check out a site called Lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com)
It was recommended by a guy on AM Radio here in the States but the name of Leo Laporte....his show is Leo the Tech Guy and he has a lot of good advice about computers and the internet.

Looking forward to reading what ever you are willing to share.

Bob_Jewett
02-25-2007, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> On a 9ft. table with VERY tight pockets, which do you believe will give you the better pocketing percentage (and WHY?): aiming at the center of the pocket, or aiming at the inner pocket facing?
I have heard conflicting opinions on this. I believe Bob Jewett did an article not too long ago related to this. <hr /></blockquote>
The article was quite a while ago and the main result was to find a spot on the cloth just in front of the pocket that could be reasonably be used as the target for all shots to that pocket. If such a spot exists, it must be on the centerline of the pocket. For the corner pockets, there is a reasonable argument that it is also on the intersection of the rail groves that meet at that pocket. For the side pockets it is at the center of the lip of the pocket.

Maybe the best target varies with speed, or there is not a single target, but to the best of my knowledge, this has never been tested on a pool table.

See the April 1997 article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Stretch
02-25-2007, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> On a 9ft. table with VERY tight pockets, which do you believe will give you the better pocketing percentage (and WHY?): aiming at the center of the pocket, or aiming at the inner pocket facing?
I have heard conflicting opinions on this. I believe Bob Jewett did an article not too long ago related to this. <hr /></blockquote>
The article was quite a while ago and the main result was to find a spot on the cloth just in front of the pocket that could be reasonably be used as the target for all shots to that pocket. If such a spot exists, it must be on the centerline of the pocket. For the corner pockets, there is a reasonable argument that it is also on the intersection of the rail groves that meet at that pocket. For the side pockets it is at the center of the lip of the pocket.

Maybe the best target varies with speed, or there is not a single target, but to the best of my knowledge, this has never been tested on a pool table.

See the April 1997 article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html <hr /></blockquote>

Bob you must have heard of this technique for side pocket aiming. The side pockets can be quite tricky at angled approaches but you can use that clearly visible line where the cushion rubber is glued to the rail which is faceing your shot as a great visual aid for those angled shots. St.

cushioncrawler
02-25-2007, 11:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> CushionCrawler! I would love to have those chapters....I am no super brain on this stuff like you guys but I do have a degree in Computer Science so I am not a complete idiot either. I will gladly read them and if you want my commnets about them I will also gladly give you those. Just email to Tom@BigRigToys.com

If you are interested in "Self Publishing" the book check out a site called Lulu.com (http://www.lulu.com)
It was recommended by a guy on AM Radio here in the States but the name of Leo Laporte....his show is Leo the Tech Guy and he has a lot of good advice about computers and the internet. Looking forward to reading what ever you are willing to share. <hr /></blockquote> Tom -- I sent Ch 71, 75, 76, 77, 78, and a seperate excel file re margin for error. Tell me what u think. I have a bit more similar stuff, and lots of stuff that would only really interest 12' players. Sorry about the spelling. And thanks for the self publishing info. Making books sux. Cutting the covers, drilling the holes, sorting the chapters, time consuming and costly, compared to an electronic (free) book, i will havtahav a hard look at it all. I sold the first lot (95 books actually) for $50, 4 volumes, 859 pages, 711 illustrations, i might get into the black somewhere into the next 50. madMac.

wolfdancer
02-26-2007, 01:35 AM
Don Feeney, in one of the earlier Bert Kinnister vids showed how at certain angles the pocket facing is the center of the effective pocket opening....and on them tight pockets....you don't want to put any MFE on the ball, and complicate the shot???

dave
02-26-2007, 08:11 AM
Thank you, Bob. Your contributions are much appreciated.

dave
02-26-2007, 08:34 AM
Your post and article explain how seemingly contradictory frames of reference can be used to identify the same relative center of the pocket target ( center of the pocket lip ).That was the heart of the question.

Bob_Jewett
02-26-2007, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ... Bob you must have heard of this technique for side pocket aiming. The side pockets can be quite tricky at angled approaches but you can use that clearly visible line where the cushion rubber is glued to the rail which is faceing your shot as a great visual aid for those angled shots. St. <hr /></blockquote>
I think that's only good for some angles. The target I propose is the center of the side pocket for all angles. I would much rather use and teach the simpler way.