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View Full Version : POLL: When do you use outside English (OE)?



dr_dave
02-26-2007, 01:50 PM
Thank you for participating,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-26-2007, 01:58 PM
I'm wondering where "none of the above" would fall on a scale of
(never...to sometimes...to always????) (might be a Zen thing?)
Unless you are referring to the fact that I couldn't hit center ball if I tried....?

dr_dave
02-26-2007, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm wondering where "none of the above" would fall on a scale of
(never...to sometimes...to always????) (might be a Zen thing?)
Unless you are referring to the fact that I couldn't hit center ball if I tried....? <hr /></blockquote>Lately, I've learned that it is very easy to offend people, so with the "none of the above" option, I am allowing someone to object to my other options (i.e., maybe they think none of the other options accurately describes their philosophy).

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
02-26-2007, 02:56 PM
I voted "none of the above". I thort about voting "sometimes", but i often uze OE to aid aiming, ie to vary the OB throw angle, koz i like to restrict my aiming to 3/4ball (or 1/2ball or 1/4ball) and uzing OE if 5/8ball (or 3/8ball or 1/8ball) iz needed. madMac.

pooltchr
02-26-2007, 04:37 PM
As one of those who sees this particular concept a little different from you, I had to choose "none of the above".
The only reason I use any english, whether it be inside or outside, it to get the cue ball to rebound off a rail in the direction I need it to travel. I have yet to see anything to make me think that english will give me any better chance at making a ball. While I am a firm believer in CIT, SIT, if it exists at all, seems to have little or no practical application in pocketing balls. In my game, side spin is strictly for controlling the cue ball off a cushion.
Steve

Jal
02-26-2007, 04:37 PM
"None of the above", but almost never, intentionally. Mainly, I employ it as a last second correction or during my oft random tip placement method.

Jim

wolfdancer
02-26-2007, 04:51 PM
Good thinking!!! I'm now having Sylvia Brown proof-read my posts before submitting....to see if there are any hidden meanings in them.....

wolfdancer
02-26-2007, 04:56 PM
Steve, no oe,even on back cuts?

BRussell
02-26-2007, 04:58 PM
I put "always," because I'm in the habit, for better or worse, of using outside english on cut shots. It's probably not absolutely always, but most of the time. And it looks like I'm the only one so far. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
02-26-2007, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Steve, no oe,even on back cuts? <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf...if a cut can be made, it can be made with or without english. I use my english for guiding the cue ball after it contacts a rail.
I have a hard time making this game more difficult that necessary. Make the shot, then get the cue ball where I want it to go. If I hit the proper contact point on the object ball, compensate for any CIT that may come into play, it works.
Suppose you have a 45 degree cut shot to the left to the corner pocket at the foot rail. If your next shot is on the foot rail, OE is going to send the cue ball in the wrong direction. If I want the cue ball to stay at that end of the table, OE is going to make it tough to do.
Steve

Stretch
02-26-2007, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Steve, no oe,even on back cuts? <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf...if a cut can be made, it can be made with or without english. I use my english for guiding the cue ball after it contacts a rail.
I have a hard time making this game more difficult that necessary. Make the shot, then get the cue ball where I want it to go. If I hit the proper contact point on the object ball, compensate for any CIT that may come into play, it works.
Suppose you have a 45 degree cut shot to the left to the corner pocket at the foot rail. If your next shot is on the foot rail, OE is going to send the cue ball in the wrong direction. If I want the cue ball to stay at that end of the table, OE is going to make it tough to do.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Next time you hit the ob too fat on a cut back we can say "i told ya so!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

wolfdancer
02-26-2007, 07:24 PM
thanks.....

pooltchr
02-26-2007, 08:35 PM
Stretch,
I said in my post that if I hit the correct contact point on the ball, it goes where I want it to go. If I hit it too fat, then I was aiming for the wrong place to begin with, or something was wrong with my stroke that didn't get the cue ball to the place where I was aiming. And if I hit it in the wrong place, it isn't going to matter what kind of spin was on the cue ball. Three things are going to happen...my object ball isn't going in...my cue ball isn't where it needed to be...and I am heading for the chair.
Steve

SpiderMan
02-27-2007, 07:34 AM
I selected "none of the above" because I almost always use (at least a little) OE to cinch cut shots, the exceptions being (1) when OE is in conflict with position-play requirements, and (2) when the cut is very thin, making throw a non-issue and squirt errors critical.

The amount of OE I use to cinch approaches "almost none" as the cut angle gets within 20 or 25 degrees of straight in. And it depends on equipment conditions.

SpiderMan

Stretch
02-27-2007, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I selected "none of the above" because I almost always use (at least a little) OE to cinch cut shots, the exceptions being (1) when OE is in conflict with position-play requirements, and (2) when the cut is very thin, making throw a non-issue and squirt errors critical.

The amount of OE I use to cinch approaches "almost none" as the cut angle gets within 20 or 25 degrees of straight in. And it depends on equipment conditions.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Spider thanks, that describes my method quite nicely as well although i tend to use os english right down to 10 and 15 degrees. Even for slight angles a touch of os english is better than going centre ball imo because if you mistakenly put inside english on (easy enough to do when trying to hit exact vertical) then it will usually push the ob off line. Sometimes enough to bobble the shot. With dirty balls this happens more than i like so i just don't go there unless 'intentional' inside is needed for position. Then aiming and speed adjustments need to be considered. St.

SpiderMan
02-27-2007, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I selected "none of the above" because I almost always use (at least a little) OE to cinch cut shots, the exceptions being (1) when OE is in conflict with position-play requirements, and (2) when the cut is very thin, making throw a non-issue and squirt errors critical.

The amount of OE I use to cinch approaches "almost none" as the cut angle gets within 20 or 25 degrees of straight in. And it depends on equipment conditions.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Spider thanks, that describes my method quite nicely as well although i tend to use os english right down to 10 and 15 degrees. Even for slight angles a touch of os english is better than going centre ball imo because if you mistakenly put inside english on (easy enough to do when trying to hit exact vertical) then it will usually push the ob off line. Sometimes enough to bobble the shot. With dirty balls this happens more than i like so i just don't go there unless 'intentional' inside is needed for position. Then aiming and speed adjustments need to be considered. St. <hr /></blockquote>

Your added comments are exactly in line with what I do. I called it "almost none" below 20-25 degrees because I really do continue to offset the tip a little. And my reason is the same as yours - just to be sure I don't get on the wrong side of centerball.

SpiderMan

Billy_Bob
02-27-2007, 09:50 AM
I said none of the above.

First of all I don't use english unless it is necessary. Many times I will play a game of 8 ball and only use english once or twice. In rare situations 50% or 75% of my shots will use english for a game of 8 ball, but this is rare.

With 9-ball I use english a lot more. Maybe up to 50% of the shots.

So far as using outside english. I use this to help pocket a ball when it is a cut shot and the object ball is near a rail. This is to reduce or avoid throw.

I also use outside english to avoid scratching or get position on my next ball.

Sometimes everything is in conflict! I need to use outside english to help pocket the ball (reduce/avoid throw), but doing this makes it a scratch shot! Arrrgg! Or sometimes I need to use inside english to get position for my next shot, but I need to use outside english to help pocket the ball!

So far as just using outside english to help pocket the ball, I usually only do this if the object ball is pretty close to the rail and it is a cut shot. Sometimes I will use inside/outside english to help pocket a ball when there is a blocking ball slightly in the path of where the cue ball needs to go to hit the object ball. I then take advantage of the more throw / less throw options I have with the shot to get the ball to go into the pocket.

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> As one of those who sees this particular concept a little different from you, I had to choose "none of the above".
The only reason I use any english, whether it be inside or outside, it to get the cue ball to rebound off a rail in the direction I need it to travel. I have yet to see anything to make me think that english will give me any better chance at making a ball. While I am a firm believer in CIT, SIT, if it exists at all, seems to have little or no practical application in pocketing balls. In my game, side spin is strictly for controlling the cue ball off a cushion.<hr /></blockquote>
Steve,

Based on what you wrote, I think the correct answer for you should have been:

never (I use OE only if it is required for OB throw or CB position.)

It sounds like you use outside English (or any English) only to control CB position, not to try to eliminate or reduce throw or cling. I was worried people would be confused by this choice.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Why do you think you "see this particular concept differently from me?" I was just asking a question ... I didn't mean to imply an opinion on the matter. You either use outside English for a particular purpose, or you don't. It sounds like your purpose is strictly for CB position (the first option in the poll).

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> "None of the above", but almost never, intentionally. Mainly, I employ it as a last second correction or during my oft random tip placement method.<hr /></blockquote>
Now, I wish I had phrased the question and answers a little better. Based on your reply, I think the correct choice would have been:

never (I use OE only if it is required for OB throw or CB position.)

Sorry for the confusion,
Dave

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I selected "none of the above" because I almost always use (at least a little) OE to cinch cut shots, the exceptions being (1) when OE is in conflict with position-play requirements, and (2) when the cut is very thin, making throw a non-issue and squirt errors critical.

The amount of OE I use to cinch approaches "almost none" as the cut angle gets within 20 or 25 degrees of straight in. And it depends on equipment conditions.<hr /></blockquote>
I guess I should have included another option:

almost always (except when OE is counterproductive to position control requirements and except for thin cuts)

The next time I decide to post a poll, I think I will get feedback on the question and answers first to make sure the poll results will be meaningful.

Live and learn,
Dave

TennesseeJoe
02-27-2007, 10:35 AM
I use OE when the conditions are sticky and/or when shooting soft shots.

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I said none of the above.

First of all I don't use english unless it is necessary. Many times I will play a game of 8 ball and only use english once or twice. In rare situations 50% or 75% of my shots will use english for a game of 8 ball, but this is rare.

With 9-ball I use english a lot more. Maybe up to 50% of the shots.

So far as using outside english. I use this to help pocket a ball when it is a cut shot and the object ball is near a rail. This is to reduce or avoid throw.

I also use outside english to avoid scratching or get position on my next ball.

Sometimes everything is in conflict! I need to use outside english to help pocket the ball (reduce/avoid throw), but doing this makes it a scratch shot! Arrrgg! Or sometimes I need to use inside english to get position for my next shot, but I need to use outside english to help pocket the ball!

So far as just using outside english to help pocket the ball, I usually only do this if the object ball is pretty close to the rail and it is a cut shot. Sometimes I will use inside/outside english to help pocket a ball when there is a blocking ball slightly in the path of where the cue ball needs to go to hit the object ball. I then take advantage of the more throw / less throw options I have with the shot to get the ball to go into the pocket.<hr /></blockquote>As I wrote to Spiderman (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245955&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1), I probably should have listed "almost always" and maybe some other options. Sorry about that. Thanks for the explanation.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> I use OE when the conditions are sticky and/or when shooting soft shots. <hr /></blockquote>
So I hope you selected the "sometimes" option. That would certainly be the most appropriate based on your statement.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Steve, no oe,even on back cuts? <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf...if a cut can be made, it can be made with or without english. I use my english for guiding the cue ball after it contacts a rail.
I have a hard time making this game more difficult that necessary. Make the shot, then get the cue ball where I want it to go. If I hit the proper contact point on the object ball, compensate for any CIT that may come into play, it works.
Suppose you have a 45 degree cut shot to the left to the corner pocket at the foot rail. If your next shot is on the foot rail, OE is going to send the cue ball in the wrong direction. If I want the cue ball to stay at that end of the table, OE is going to make it tough to do.<hr /></blockquote>Steve,

Thank you for clarifying. Obviously, outside English (OE) is not always appropriate for every cut shot, because position control requirements might demand something different. The rest of my message concerns the shots where OE is acceptable.

The potential problem with adjusting your aim for collision-induced throw (CIT) is that the amount of CIT can vary a lot with cut angle, speed, top or bottom spin, etc. This is a primary topic of my recent series of articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html). Throw amounts will also differ from one set of conditions to another (e.g., local pool hall vs. bar vs. home table vs. tournament conditions). An even bigger problem is variability in the amount of throw due to variability in ball-to-ball contact-point properties. If the CB or OB surfaces at the point of contact happen to be rougher, dirtier, chalk-smudged, stickier, cleaner, slicker, or smoother at the point of contact, the amount of throw might vary from shot to shot (even if the shots are identical otherwise). When the amount of throw is a lot more than expected, we give it a special name (e.g., "cling," "skid," "kick"); but the point is, there will be variability with throw from one shot to the next. Now, if the balls are new, polished, clean, and smooth, the amount of variability will be less, but "cling" (due to fresh chalk marks of the CB) can still be a concern.

For all of these reasons, the use of outside English (OE), starts to make a little sense. Although, I still think the recommended "best practices" are still unclear because with English comes squirt and swerve. Also, to reduce or eliminate throw, the right amount of OE ("gearing" OE) must be used for each cut angle (see my Jan '07 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf)). Speed effects also come into play here (mostly with swerve, some with squirt). Therefore, if one is not good with aim compensation and "gearing" judgment, OE might not be the best approach to deal with throw.

One thing is for sure: as others have pointed out (e.g., see Spiderman's reply to Stretch (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=245945&amp;Foru m=ccb&amp;Words=Spiderman&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchpage=0&amp; Limit=25&amp;Old=1week&amp;Main=245901&amp;Search=true#Post245 945)), OE is probably not the wisest solution for dealing with throw for thin cuts, where aiming precision is key.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-27-2007, 02:52 PM
None other then Freddie "The Beard" suggests adding english on cut banks.....and I think OE helps (for me) on back cuts. I also use it to try to limit or exaggerate the CB carom movement (try is the key word...nobody's ever going to confuse me with a pool player though)
Given Steve's pool proficiency...I'd guess him adding english just to make the shot..... is unnecessary.
That would make it a personal choice.....just like in Golf....it's ok to have a built in error...as long as it's a repeatable error.

Cornerman
02-27-2007, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I selected "none of the above" because I almost always use (at least a little) OE to cinch cut shots, the exceptions being (1) when OE is in conflict with position-play requirements, and (2) when the cut is very thin, making throw a non-issue and squirt errors critical. <hr /></blockquote>

Here are my thoughts on the subject. And they sort of jibe with just about everything I ever say about using english, and how I'm anti "use center more than anything" credo.

The analogy is bank shots. Any decent bank player will shoot the bank shots firmly, not softly. From table to to table, cloth to cloth, there's a wide variation of outcomes if you setup the exact same shot, using the exact same soft cut or the exact same soft spin. That is, if you cut exactly the same on two different tables, you get a wide difference in results. But, if you shoot hard, the variance from one table to another table lessens (by taking the spin and the cloth reaction to spin out of the equation). That is, by shooting firmly, you've cut down your margin of error, so to speak, by cutting down your variances from table to table. I think that makes sense to most players who have any experience in banking balls.

Similarly, using a hair of outside to cut a ball in I think is analogous. From table to table, conditions to conditions, if you set the same shot up and use a center ball stun shot, you might get a wider variance in results compared to if you shoot the same shot, but with a hair of outside. There may be very little difference in compensation from table to table if you use that touch of OE, but there could be a wider range of compensation if you use center/stun.

That's why I say that the whole saying of "staying in the center" is hooey. There's a lot more to this game than just making your cueball go straight.

Fred &lt;~~~ uses some kind of english on almost every shot.

Cane
02-27-2007, 03:14 PM
I also chose "None of the above". I never use spin (inside outside or otherwise) with the intent of "throwing" a ball, so my use of spin is strictly for CB position on "cut shots". As for those tough "back cuts", set one up and I'll shoot it with inside, outside, top, bottom or whatever. Makes no difference... if you aim it well and stroke it well, it will go in regardless of what english you apply on the CB.

So, I guess I stand with pooltchr on this one. I'll spin for position, not for throw. No need for it, IMHO

Hey, new stuff here. I had a knee replacement done 5 weeks ago yesterday. The stance is a little different. Amazing how much a "good" knee can change the old stance I had with a "bad" knee. Still not fun to play for more than 2 or 3 hours at a time, but I'm getting back in shape!

Later,
Bob

TennesseeJoe
02-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Cornerman:This was an excellent post and based on experience. Thanks.

dr_dave
02-27-2007, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> I also chose "None of the above". I never use spin (inside outside or otherwise) with the intent of "throwing" a ball, so my use of spin is strictly for CB position on "cut shots". As for those tough "back cuts", set one up and I'll shoot it with inside, outside, top, bottom or whatever. Makes no difference... if you aim it well and stroke it well, it will go in regardless of what english you apply on the CB.

So, I guess I stand with pooltchr on this one. I'll spin for position, not for throw. No need for it, IMHO
<hr /></blockquote>Based on what your just wrote, I wish you had picked:

never (I use OE only if it is required for OB throw or CB position.)

This answer was intended for people who only use OE when it is required for position (or for throw shots). Next time, I'll be much more careful with the wording of both my question and the answers (and probably not include a "none of the above" option). Live and learn.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>Hey, new stuff here. I had a knee replacement done 5 weeks ago yesterday. The stance is a little different. Amazing how much a "good" knee can change the old stance I had with a "bad" knee. Still not fun to play for more than 2 or 3 hours at a time, but I'm getting back in shape!<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the update. Good luck with that. My dad, in the last two years, got a new knee and lots of new heart by-pass arteries. He feels like a new man ... sometimes those doctors can do some good.

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr
02-27-2007, 05:11 PM
Bob,
Glad to see you are back. Good luck with the recovery.
Steve

Stretch
02-28-2007, 07:16 AM
Dave, if you just wanted to discuss outside english then fine. Formatting it into a Poll looks to be a bust. "A" for effort though in correcting everyones choices in how you figured they should have voted. I hope your not going to publish the results in any of your articles or books. With that much choice coaching and efforts to direct people to your links and articles i'm starting to wonder if this is all just a cover to use our hard earned experience for your own profit. Your blitz on the board and OVEREXPOSURE just dosn't add up to simple curiosity and willingness to learn. St. ( naturally suspicious nature )

joepool
02-28-2007, 09:16 AM
i answered "none of the above"....i don't think about the throw that much on most shots, at least, consciously; usually I use OE for position and also as what Buddy Hall describes, I think, as "helping English"--- I think I am one of those players that may use more Engish than needed -- I use inside English, IE, on many shots too, primarily if needed for position and also for many sharp cuts...

TennesseeJoe
02-28-2007, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> I hope your not going to publish the results in any of your articles or books. With that much choice coaching and efforts to direct people to your links and articles i'm starting to wonder if this is all just a cover to use our hard earned experience for your own profit. Your blitz on the board and OVEREXPOSURE just dosn't add up to simple curiosity and willingness to learn. St. ( naturally suspicious nature )
<hr /></blockquote>

Dave, I do hope you print an article with our comments being part of your research. There is a vast wealth of knowledge going in to these posts and it may be hard at times to sort out the good from the bad.

As for profiting: I hope you make a ton. The free enterprise system in the United States works. If someone doesn't want their material used they shouldn't publish it or should have it copyrighted.

Just my opinion, but then again, I don't have a dog in this race either.

Gayle in MD
02-28-2007, 10:19 AM
Just a friendly question, from a curious shooter...when you say...

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>
I'll spin for position, not for throw.
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly what do you mean by this. I find something missing in this duscussion, and that is, (maybe the elephant in the room) the whole issue about whether or not any type of side english affects the reaction of the CB off the OB. As I see it, there are two theories regarding this. Some people believe that side english does not have any result on the path of the cb or on the ob, and that the only effect side english has is after it hits a rail. Others believe that side english can spin a ball into the pocket, thereby having a transfer of sppin from CB to OB, and also, on the path of the CB, after it hits an OB.

So, when you say you'll spin for position, do you mean resulting position after the CB contacts the OB?

I am still trying to understand, why I hear pro after pro, talk about spinning the OB into the pocket, yet many teachers maintain that spin is only a directional resulting path to the CB after it has hit a rail.

This has never made sense to me, for if that were true, then why would people put side on the CB when they use the second ball break shot when breaking in eight ball play? And also, why is side spin often used to direct the CB away from a scratch after it hits the OB.

Thanks,
Gayle in Md.

Stretch
02-28-2007, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Just a friendly question, from a curious shooter...when you say...

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>
I'll spin for position, not for throw.
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote>

Exactly what do you mean by this. I find something missing in this duscussion, and that is, (maybe the elephant in the room) the whole issue about whether or not any type of side english affects the reaction of the CB off the OB. As I see it, there are two theories regarding this. Some people believe that side english does not have any result on the path of the cb or on the ob, and that the only effect side english has is after it hits a rail. Others believe that side english can spin a ball into the pocket, thereby having a transfer of sppin from CB to OB, and also, on the path of the CB, after it hits an OB.

So, when you say you'll spin for position, do you mean resulting position after the CB contacts the OB?

I am still trying to understand, why I hear pro after pro, talk about spinning the OB into the pocket, yet many teachers maintain that spin is only a directional resulting path to the CB after it has hit a rail.

This has never made sense to me, for if that were true, then why would people put side on the CB when they use the second ball break shot when breaking in eight ball play? And also, why is side spin often used to direct the CB away from a scratch after it hits the OB.

Thanks,
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, Hi /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif when you "spin the ball down" it means that you've hit it with loads of english to throw the ball down. Oooops, answering an expression with another expression, sorry. haha Anyway this shot lets you hit the ob a little thicker than normal and the os english throws it down. Sometimes the ob is just off the rail and you might decide to go rail first with lots of inside english, this could also be described as spinning the ball down. the point is, any shot that uses lots of english to make the ob go down. Hope i havn't confused you more . /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif St.

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 11:00 AM
I forgot about Buddy's "helping english" a nice euphemism for OE.
AND,if it's good enough for Buddy....it's good enough for me.

dr_dave
02-28-2007, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> Dave, if you just wanted to discuss outside english then fine. Formatting it into a Poll looks to be a bust. "A" for effort though in correcting everyones choices in how you figured they should have voted. I hope your not going to publish the results in any of your articles or books. With that much choice coaching and efforts to direct people to your links and articles i'm starting to wonder if this is all just a cover to use our hard earned experience for your own profit. Your blitz on the board and OVEREXPOSURE just dosn't add up to simple curiosity and willingness to learn. St. ( naturally suspicious nature )<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm starting to get tired responding to inappropriate accusations and slander like this. But I'm not going to just sit around and continue to "take it" either. You guys have earned the right to be pointed out for what you are.

Get a life!

I have been very active with all throw, spin transfer, outside English, CIT, and SIT threads lately because those have been the topics of my recent series of articles in Billiards Digest. I also have two or three more articles planned dealing with these topics, hence my strong level of interest. Period!!!

Why do so many of you insist that I have intentions other than what I have described?

Of course I wrote a book, and I like when people buy it, because it feels good to know that people are benefiting from my stuff. If you think I do it just for the money, you are terribly wrong. I don't need the money I get from my pool book ... I make a decent living otherwise. Would it help if I donated more of the profits to pool-related causes and make my income tax records available to all. If that's what it would take to have some of you guys slack off, I would consider it. However, I doubt it would make any difference.

Sad at the amount of negativity in the world,
Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Billy_Bob
02-28-2007, 11:18 AM
The following video says it all. The video is on throw. Note that using two tips of outside english gets the *least* amount of throw on the object ball.

Think about shots where the object ball is slightly off the rail and it is a cut shot.

Wouldn't using outside english on these shots be a good idea? (So there is little or no throw)

Doesn't the object ball on these shots tend to slide into the rail if using something other that outside english?

Throw test....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xtzn4vbiQ

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 11:18 AM
Just my opinion, but then again, I don't have a dog in this race either.
I'd give you one, Florena Stone, that won me $2785....but she'd be around 40, right now and probably not racing anymore.
I doubt if Dr. Dave comes anywhere near covering expenses on his project, and when you factor in the time involved.....he'd make more selling "Miz" cue sticks at Wal-Mart. I'm surprised that the $$ thing was even brought up. His site is free to use and explore....only the book and DVD are for sale and the book hasn't made Oprah's list yet.....He seldom mentions either in his posts...and his links lead you directly to a short video, not the main site itself......
(I see Dr. Dave has just replied to that post)

Billy_Bob
02-28-2007, 11:28 AM
Here is the type of shot I am talking about. The object ball is slightly off the rail and it is a cut shot. I use outside english on these shots to make the object ball into the corner pocket...

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AbGu1PHSf1kHSf3kbGd@

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 11:39 AM
Gayle, Tom has mentioned Buddy Hall's use of "helping english". and BB has added a Good video link.....
Try this...set up a shot aimed at a cushion, an inch away from
a pocket....then keeping that aim...stroke using OE....did you spin the ball in, throw it in, or did the english swerve the cue ball and thus correct the aim? Do I need to know that as long as I can routinely pocket balls using OE?
Do I need to know anything about coefficient of restitution to hit a golf ball?
It's nice to know "why" but I'd rather know "how"
The range of usage then is Steve never uses it to just pocket a shot....Buddy says he uses it to "help out" on some shots.
you aim either, and I aim ....

Billy_Bob
02-28-2007, 11:52 AM
BTW - Seems to me "throw" is very difficult for many players to understand (in my area at least).

I think this is... Are you a "mechanical type" or not thing?

I know my dad who is not mechanical would NEVER understand this in a month of Sundays...

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 12:23 PM
In the past few days Dr. Dave has been accused of everything from having a mental disorder, to a pool "profiteer"...everything just short of necromancy.
And then adding the new "overexposure" charge...only Paris Hilton is overexposed.....
(Is there a concerted effort here, to run off Dr. D.?)

Paris, by the way, has a new job as a gas station attendent.

http://www.socialitelife.com/mt/archives/images/parisgasfront.jpg

Gayle in MD
02-28-2007, 12:40 PM
AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, that, none other than Dr. Dave, is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There, now I've said it, it's off my non global warming chest! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ah, such relief! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 12:45 PM
Dr. Dave is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl!

What you talking about woman? When Anna Nicole was asking "who's your daddy?"...she meant me. I'm going to see that the child gets all the money due him....after my "expenses" and fair compensation.......

SpiderMan
02-28-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, the none other than Dr. Dave is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I heard that Dr Dave was spotted coaching chimpanzees to sharpen sticks and spear bush babies (not Jenna, though) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
02-28-2007, 01:24 PM
Thanks for posting that...I've been trying to figure out how to do something similar.
AS to the shot itself...I might use inside english..
I've lost my copy of Jack Koehler's "Science of Pocket Billiards" another loan out, that wasn't returned to me....but
it seems that as the cut angle increased...at some point he recommended switching to IE from OE?
I may have that back aswards...but I'm going to try the shot using both methods......thanks again for the link to cuetable....

dr_dave
02-28-2007, 03:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, that, none other than Dr. Dave, is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There, now I've said it, it's off my non global warming chest! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ah, such relief! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>It is nice to get some flattery for a change. Now, if Wolfie can only get me set up with that Paris chick, that would just be icing on the cake.

Thank you very much,
Dave

dr_dave
02-28-2007, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, the none other than Dr. Dave is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I heard that Dr Dave was spotted coaching chimpanzees to sharpen sticks and spear bush babies (not Jenna, though) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>I threw javelin a little in high school. I also prefer the dart-stroke jump-shot technique. Maybe that's how the rumor got started.

Dave

Bob_Jewett
02-28-2007, 08:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> ... I never use spin (inside outside or otherwise) with the intent of "throwing" a ball, ... <hr /></blockquote>
But then what do you do on those shots which can be made only with throw? Shoot something else?

colincolenso
02-28-2007, 10:37 PM
I chose 'sometimes' but I would have prefered to select 'usually'.

An exception would be when there is more than 2 feet of distance between the CB and OB. With more separation, the effect of swerve and/or squirt becomes the more critical variable.

When the CB and OB are close, with a cut angle, the OE makes it easier to estimate the cut angle accurately I believe. But it will depend on if you practice the shot that way.

Colin

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 07:21 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 07:24 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LOL...you sure do get around! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 07:38 AM
Thank you. Kool video..

Gayle in Md.

Stretch
03-01-2007, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, that, none other than Dr. Dave, is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There, now I've said it, it's off my non global warming chest! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ah, such relief! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>It is nice to get some flattery for a change. [ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote> Now, if Wolfie can only get me set up with that Paris chick, that would just be icing on the cake.

Thank you very much,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

That's already been done, the show is called "Beauty and the Geek". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St.

dr_dave
03-01-2007, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> AND, on top of everything else Dr. Dave has done here lately, I have NO doubt, that, none other than Dr. Dave, is the father of Anna Nicole's baby girl! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There, now I've said it, it's off my non global warming chest! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ah, such relief! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>It is nice to get some flattery for a change. &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<hr /></blockquote> Now, if Wolfie can only get me set up with that Paris chick, that would just be icing on the cake.

Thank you very much,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

That's already been done, the show is called "Beauty and the Geek". /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>Funny. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But are you implying that I am a geek? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
03-01-2007, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Thank you. Kool video..<hr /></blockquote>

That video was made by Colin Colenso (Who I read recently took 3rd place in the Aussie National 9-Ball Champs). I think it is one of the best videos I have ever seen.
Thanks again Colin!

dr_dave
03-01-2007, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Thank you. Kool video..<hr /></blockquote>

That video was made by Colin Colenso (Who I read recently "took 3rd place in the Aussie National 9-Ball Champs). I think it is one of the best videos I have ever seen.
Thanks again Colin!<hr /></blockquote>
FYI, links to all of Colins videos can be found here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html) (at the bottom). See NV A.18-A.20 and the "CueTV" link (see the "Pool Instruction Vids" section there).

Happy viewing,
Dave

Billy_Bob
03-01-2007, 10:52 AM
Something more I would like to mention about the shot I showed above...

There is a difference in how far the object ball is off the rail as to what I will do. (And it is a cut shot)

Situations...
The object ball can be frozen to the rail.

The object ball can be very slightly off the rail like 1/8 inch.

The object ball can be a little more off the rail like 1/4 to 1 inch.

The object ball can be further out from the rail like an inch or more.

Also depends how far away from the pocket the object ball is and the cut angle.

The main point I wanted to make was... If the object ball is "frozen" to the rail, then should be able to shoot with any english and also pocket the ball. It changes everything if the object ball is frozen as opposed to slightly off the rail.

To avoid confusion, I'll not mention the various "tricks" which can be used with a severe cut angle and the object ball frozen or slightly off the rail, etc.

Gayle in MD
03-01-2007, 11:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>
Awe, Cm'on...Don't hold back now!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Gayle in Md.

Billy_Bob
03-01-2007, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Awe, Cm'on...Don't hold back now!
<hr /></blockquote>

Well in certain (rare) situations, I would use inside english instead of outside english....

Anyway if the cut shot is approaching 90 degrees and the object ball is frozen or slightly off the rail, there is a "trick" to make the ball. And that is to use inside english, hit the rail first, then the cue ball comes back off the rail to then hit the object ball.

I think I might use this shot about once a month in a "do or die" situation. (Quite rare.)

Deeman3
03-01-2007, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Now, if Wolfie can only get me set up with that Paris chick, that would just be icing on the cake.

Thank you very much,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I'd be careful Doc, you don't know where that thing has been! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color>

DeeMan
Heard Wolfdancer turned Paris down!!!!!....Face Down! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

dr_dave
03-01-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Now, if Wolfie can only get me set up with that Paris chick, that would just be icing on the cake.

Thank you very much,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I'd be careful Doc, you don't know where that thing has been! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color>

DeeMan
Heard Wolfdancer turned Paris down!!!!!....Face Down! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>
That's a good point ... and I have a girlfriend already anyway. In fact, I'm quite in love a the moment (with my girlfriend ... not you, despite your recent dirty talk about chrome pole activities). It feels good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Catch you later,
Dave

wolfdancer
03-01-2007, 01:40 PM
nice to see a little civility, and some friendly jibes here again...and off of the "White man speak with forked tongue" stuff.
Rather than take mild offense at being thought of as a "geek"
I see a business opportunity for you...a franchised "Dr. Dave's Pool/Geek Squad"
I'd apply, but have just sent in my resume for Heidi Fleiss's new "Stud Farm" in Pharump,Nv......where the women will be paying, finally, for the men. (It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it)
I'm hoping they don't pay though....by the hour...
meanwhile back at the pool room....

Deeman3
03-01-2007, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> nice to see a little civility, and some friendly jibes here again...and off of the "White man speak with forked tongue" stuff.
Rather than take mild offense at being thought of as a "geek"
I see a business opportunity for you...a franchised "Dr. Dave's Pool/Geek Squad"
I'd apply, but have just sent in my resume for Heidi Fleiss's new "Stud Farm" in Pharump,Nv......where the women will be paying, finally, for the men. (It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it)
I'm hoping they don't pay though....by the hour...
meanwhile back at the pool room.... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">After your PM I visited that site and gave them a feedback note saying if a guy named Wolfdancer submits a photo of himslef that looks remarkedly like Kevin Costner, they need to adjust their screening process. They replied that it was o.k. that your drig test sample came back negative but, unfortunately, your pregnant. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

<font color="green"> On subject here: My Christian background precludes me from considering squirt in technical discussions on sticks. I just aims 'em and let's Mother Nature control the shot, ur...the miss.... </font color>

DeeMan
serial stalkers need love too......

Cane
03-01-2007, 09:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> But then what do you do on those shots which can be made only with throw? Shoot something else? <hr /></blockquote>

Bob, Show me an example of a shot that requires throw to make and I'll tell you what I'd do.

Thanks,
Bob

PS: If I don't answer for a few days, please, be patient. I'm bouncing around Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Texas a lot right now and don't always have access to CCB.

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> But then what do you do on those shots which can be made only with throw? Shoot something else? <hr /></blockquote>

Bob, Show me an example of a shot that requires throw to make and I'll tell you what I'd do.

Thanks,
Bob

PS: If I don't answer for a few days, please, be patient. I'm bouncing around Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Texas a lot right now and don't always have access to CCB. <hr /></blockquote>
Here are few examples:

NV 4.15 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-15.htm) - Using throw to make a partially blocked shot

NV 7.5 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-5.htm) - Frozen ball throw

NV 7.6 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV7-6.htm) - Frozen cue-ball throw

NV A.21 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-21.htm) - Bank shot using throw and spin transfer

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 11:07 AM
Based on people's replies to the percentage English usage for top players (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) thread, where many people were suggesting that top players use English on almost every shot, I have to admit that I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. Very few respondents seem to use outside English on most cut shots (e.g., to eliminate or reduce the amount of throw and "cling").

What does this mean? Maybe very few top players participated in the poll. Maybe people think top players hit the rails on almost every shot (and hence use English for CB control on almost every shot). Any other ideas?

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
03-02-2007, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Based on people's replies to the percentage English usage for top players (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) thread, where many people were suggesting that top players use English on almost every shot, I have to admit that I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. Very few respondents seem to use outside English on most cut shots (e.g., to eliminate or reduce the amount of throw and "cling").

What does this mean? Maybe very few top players participated in the poll. Maybe people think top players hit the rails on almost every shot (and hence use English for CB control on almost every shot). Any other ideas?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe we can use these responses to identify who at least thinks like "top players" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Based on people's replies to the percentage English usage for top players (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) thread, where many people were suggesting that top players use English on almost every shot, I have to admit that I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. Very few respondents seem to use outside English on most cut shots (e.g., to eliminate or reduce the amount of throw and "cling").

What does this mean? Maybe very few top players participated in the poll. Maybe people think top players hit the rails on almost every shot (and hence use English for CB control on almost every shot). Any other ideas?

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe we can use these responses to identify who at least thinks like "top players" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>The results seem to imply to me that many of the respondents think top players play very differently than they do. Maybe that's accurate. Maybe there aren't many top players on this forum.

Dave

Jager85
03-02-2007, 12:12 PM
Rather than outside vs. inside english, I am easier compared to running vs. kill english. I will always use running english if necessary and try to leave myself with running english shape for the next shot as well. Personally I have a problem judging the speed with kill english (possibly because I rarely use it).

Jager85
03-02-2007, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Steve, no oe,even on back cuts? <hr /></blockquote>

Wolf...if a cut can be made, it can be made with or without english. I use my english for guiding the cue ball after it contacts a rail.
I have a hard time making this game more difficult that necessary. Make the shot, then get the cue ball where I want it to go. If I hit the proper contact point on the object ball, compensate for any CIT that may come into play, it works.
Suppose you have a 45 degree cut shot to the left to the corner pocket at the foot rail. If your next shot is on the foot rail, OE is going to send the cue ball in the wrong direction. If I want the cue ball to stay at that end of the table, OE is going to make it tough to do.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

What if you have a cut shot that just barely cannot be made? With OE you can still cut the ball and throw it in.

Or in a case where a ball cannot be made normally because of a partially blocking ball. Sometimes by throwing the ball you can compensate for that lost angle.

I am not criticizing, I am curious, beause I do agree with you 90%. Most of my english is for CB position as well. But there are those rare circumstances like the two above where throw can make an otherwise impossible shot. Oh the beauty of english!

The only downside to using english strictly for making a shot is whats your next shot gonna be like? Then you stop and think...maybe I'll play a safety here instead.

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 12:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr> Rather than outside vs. inside english, I am easier compared to running vs. kill english. I will always use running english if necessary and try to leave myself with running english shape for the next shot as well. Personally I have a problem judging the speed with kill english (possibly because I rarely use it). <hr /></blockquote>That's an important distinction. When the CB will hit a rail, it is more appropriate to refer to the English as "natural" (running) or "reverse" (kill). Outside (or inside) English can be either. Whether English is natural or reverse will dictate where the CB will go for the next shot.

However, I was trying to exclude CB positioning requirements from the poll, to keep the question simpler. I wanted to know how many people use outside English (OE) when it is not required for CB position. So in my question, whether the OE is natural or running is immaterial.

Thanks,
Dave

pooltchr
03-02-2007, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr>
What if you have a cut shot that just barely cannot be made? With OE you can still cut the ball and throw it in.

<hr /></blockquote>
Or with inside english you can get enough cb squirt and swerve to curve the cue ball a little bit and come into the shot at an angle that makes the cut can be made.
There is rarely only one way to play a shot in pool.
Steve

Bob_Jewett
03-02-2007, 05:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr>... Bob, Show me an example of a shot that requires throw to make and I'll tell you what I'd do. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Read my BD articles. They're on-line.

"We don't know what we don't know." If only more people would take that to heart.

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Based on people's replies to the percentage English usage for top players (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) thread, where many people were suggesting that top players use English on almost every shot, I have to admit that I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. Very few respondents seem to use outside English on most cut shots (e.g., to eliminate or reduce the amount of throw and "cling").<hr /></blockquote> In the spirit of full disclosure, the term "suggesting" will strike negative and loaded tones. These weren't suggestions or opinions. They were observations. Putting a percentage to them was a guess, not a suggestion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr>What does this mean? Maybe very few top players participated in the poll. Maybe people think top players hit the rails on almost every shot (and hence use English for CB control on almost every shot). Any other ideas?
<hr /></blockquote>

The answers are so easy. You didn't ask the same question. If they were the same question, you'd have similar answers. You will note how many players had to explain what they may have or would have put, but the poll was framed in such a way that their answers wouldn't be the clear picture.

And if you pick out the responders and what they post, you will see as clear as day why some responders respond as they do.

Fred &lt;~~~ almost every shot

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> The results seem to imply to me that many of the respondents think top players play very differently than they do. Maybe that's accurate. Maybe there aren't many top players on this forum.<hr /></blockquote>I would beg you to completely strike this post from your memory banks. This is probably the worst conclusion you could possibly make. If someone reads it and runs with it, that would suck.

Fred

dr_dave
03-04-2007, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Based on people's replies to the percentage English usage for top players (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=244666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) thread, where many people were suggesting that top players use English on almost every shot, I have to admit that I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. Very few respondents seem to use outside English on most cut shots (e.g., to eliminate or reduce the amount of throw and "cling").<hr /></blockquote> In the spirit of full disclosure, the term "suggesting" will strike negative and loaded tones. These weren't suggestions or opinions. They were observations. Putting a percentage to them was a guess, not a suggestion.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr>What does this mean? Maybe very few top players participated in the poll. Maybe people think top players hit the rails on almost every shot (and hence use English for CB control on almost every shot). Any other ideas?
<hr /></blockquote>

The answers are so easy. You didn't ask the same question. If they were the same question, you'd have similar answers. You will note how many players had to explain what they may have or would have put, but the poll was framed in such a way that their answers wouldn't be the clear picture.

And if you pick out the responders and what they post, you will see as clear as day why some responders respond as they do.

Fred &lt;~~~ almost every shot <hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Your points are well taken. Thanks. I now wish I had phrased the question and answers more carefully.

Live and learn,
Dave

dr_dave
03-07-2007, 03:16 PM
FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-07-2007, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Wow. I'm really surprised that Billiards Digest is okay with putting an article on the web before publication.

If everyone did that with their articles for fact checking purposes, then no one would ever have to subscribe to the magazine.


Fran

dr_dave
03-07-2007, 06:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Wow. I'm really surprised that Billiards Digest is okay with putting an article on the web before publication.

If everyone did that with their articles for fact checking purposes, then no one would ever have to subscribe to the magazine.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-07-2007, 07:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fran,

I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.

Regards,
Dave
<hr /></blockquote>

So before you put this article online, you asked the editor of BD if you could put it online prior to publishing, and were told sure, go ahead? Did I understand that correctly?

Fran

TennesseeJoe
03-07-2007, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


Dr. Dave
Since I quit playing many years ago I let my Billiard Digest subscription lapse. Now that I started playing and after reading your article, I subscribed again. Absolutely great. I wish that I could have seen it 45 years ago.

I sent a couple comments privately for your perusal.

Rod
03-08-2007, 01:22 AM
Dave ,

I found some parts that could mislead readers. You wrote about OE reducing or eliminating throw. OE does throw a ball just like IE. You should be using the word skid instead of throw in that area. It reality skid is not throw. There is no possible way to throw that much with CIT or english. Although a possible exception of throw that is or looks like cling is when the c/b and o/b frozen.

The article mentions with new cloth chalk is not worn off as much. Where did that conclusion come from? I'd think with more nap it would or could be worn off at least the same as used. You mention often with new cloth the balls are new and polished. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that statement is far fetched. Most pool rooms simply can not afford that luxury very often. Its not uncommon for balls to be several years old.

I think you mentioned amount of skid on new cloth is less. I assure you big skids can and will happen on new cloth. If I read that wrong though never mind.

There is a tiny bit more that I won't go into, maybe later or maybe never. For the most part you provide readers with good information. Although the standard reply, see my articles NV whatever, some can be misleading and newer (even some well above average) players take this as solid gold. All I'm saying is, if you don't have proof, it shouldn't be in print. Just because a few people agree doesn't make it a fact.


Rod

Paul_Mon
03-08-2007, 04:49 AM
Dave,

I just skimmed thru and my first impression is that the diagrams are the best I've ever seen!!

Paul Mon

CarolNYC
03-08-2007, 05:22 AM
Hi Dave,
I enjoy reading your posts (when I get a chance)-your always filled with optimism and positiveness-also, a pleasure to be around-so keep up the good work /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
But are you implying that I am a geek? <hr /></blockquote>

You can be my geek anytime- /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stay well!
Carol

Billy_Bob
03-08-2007, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest...<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent article! I don't know how on earth you were able to cram so much information into such a short article, but you did it.

I think this is *the* article everyone should read, study, and try to understand if they want to be a good player. (Especially the part about not using english!)

This subject is quite complex. I think you could spend the next year just writing articles explaining terms used in this article such as "pivot point", etc.

I also like it that you posted this ahead of time to get feedback. I think this is a good thing to do with such a complex topic.

Up to now I have just had the Shepard paper to link to when people on the internet ask about pivot points, BHE, etc. But all the math makes it Greek to most people. Good to have something written in "English" with diagrams!

Good work! Excellent writing!

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.<hr /></blockquote>So before you put this article online, you asked the editor of BD if you could put it online prior to publishing, and were told sure, go ahead? Did I understand that correctly?<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

If you must know, I did not ask the BD editor before posting this particular article online, but my posting practice is no secret. I have posted every single one of my articles (since Jan '04) on my website two months before publication. This article is no different. What was different this time is that I asked for feedback and comment because the article summarizes topics from many recent threads.

Thank you for your concern,
Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


Dr. Dave
Since I quit playing many years ago I let my Billiard Digest subscription lapse. Now that I started playing and after reading your article, I subscribed again. Absolutely great. I wish that I could have seen it 45 years ago.

I sent a couple comments privately for your perusal. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks, TennesseeJoe. I appreciate the supportive comments and the PM with suggestions.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I hope Fran sees this. I guess pre-posting articles on my website isn't so bad for BD after all.

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> Dave,

I just skimmed thru and my first impression is that the diagrams are the best I've ever seen!!

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>Thanks Paul. I do take pride in my diagrams ... that's why I use the word "Illustrated" in my article and book titles.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hi Dave,
I enjoy reading your posts (when I get a chance)-your always filled with optimism and positiveness-also, a pleasure to be around-so keep up the good work /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>Thanks. I'm not going anywhere.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>But are you implying that I am a geek? <hr /></blockquote>
You can be my geek anytime- /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Are you flirting with me, you little devil?

Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 10:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest...<hr /></blockquote>

Excellent article! I don't know how on earth you were able to cram so much information into such a short article, but you did it.

I think this is *the* article everyone should read, study, and try to understand if they want to be a good player. (Especially the part about not using english!)

This subject is quite complex. I think you could spend the next year just writing articles explaining terms used in this article such as "pivot point", etc.

I also like it that you posted this ahead of time to get feedback. I think this is a good thing to do with such a complex topic.

Up to now I have just had the Shepard paper to link to when people on the internet ask about pivot points, BHE, etc. But all the math makes it Greek to most people. Good to have something written in "English" with diagrams!

Good work! Excellent writing!<hr /></blockquote>
Wow! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Thank you so much for your kind and supportive words. I appreciate it.

I do worry that I tried to cram too much into the article, but I also can't imagine taking anything out.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 11:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I just posted the draft on an instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) that will appear in the May '07 issue of Billiards Digest. It summarizes many of the topics discussed in this and other recent threads. Please check it out and let me know if you think anything is inaccurate or inappropriate. It goes to print at the end of the month, so I have time to make small changes. Thank you in advance for your feedback and comments.<hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote from PM:</font><hr>What causes throw? Cling. The amount of cling is one factor determining the amount of throw. Throw is the result of cling.<hr /></blockquote>Here's my answer:

Throw is caused by friction between the balls. There is always throw, unless a "gearing" amount of outside English is used (see my January '07 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf)). "Cling" (AKA "kick" or "skid") is a term used to refer to "excessive throw" caused by excessive friction (e.g., from a chalk mark at the contact point between the balls).

Any comments or disagreements?

Dave

wolfdancer
03-08-2007, 11:12 AM
It's a very good article...however....
I like to skim (that's speed reading without the retention factor)....and this calls for some serious concentration....
A few years back, Mr. Hal Houle was showing a few of us his version of BHE...Hal
starts with the cue aimed thru one side of the C.B. then swings the cue past center. There were some excellent players in that group...and the consensus was it was a bit of a "novelty" shot.
Going back even further, "King" James and Loree Jon, in a segment on their tape titled something like "extending your game beyond the table" also demonstrated this....though without the fine detail that your article and Colin's video adds. BHE is hit &amp; miss, without knowing how the pivot length enters into the equation.
We're fortunate here to have you, Fred, and Fran as regular contributers. Whether I understand the diagrams, etc in their entirety...is ok...it's a "good read"
I just ordered the book from BlackBeltBilliards, based on Fran's mention of it...I'm sure I'll pick up a tip or two from that as well.
Dick Leonard could probably keep us all entertained here for month's if we could get him to expand beyond his modest mentions of the past...
As to your "sneak preview" Fran does have a good point there...if the columnist's all posted on line...(the meat of the magazine) it could affect sales....but if I didn't already have a subscription, like the other poster,I'd think
if this is the kind of info the mag offers....sign me up.
Well, after i read the entire article, read my new book,...i still might not be able to play a good game....but I'll be able to "Talk a good game"
thanks for the article....and your continuing research projects on the game....who knows...eventually....you might discover..........
the missing link, that will make us all "A" players

CarolNYC
03-08-2007, 11:20 AM
Good for you,Dave-keep that positive energy coming /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
03-08-2007, 11:21 AM
Oops-busted again! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Stay well!

Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 11:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PM:</font><hr>You stated that if I am aiming for vertical, but accidentally put a little left on the cb, it will throw the ob to the right.<hr /></blockquote>Correct (assuming squirt and swerve are small and/or accounted for). For examples, see NV 4.15, NV 7.6, and NV A.21 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html).
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PM:</font><hr>Assuming for a minute that spin can throw a ball (you know we don't exactly see eye to eye on that point)<hr /></blockquote>If you read my August '06 through May '07 articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html), and still believe that SIT and spin transfer don't exist, I will be tempted to shoot myself. I don't mean any disrespect by this. I just get a little frustrated when people question the existence of CIT and/or SIT, because I just spent the last year of my life doing experiments, deriving theory, filming demos, and writing articles to prove that it is real. Bob Jewett has also written several great articles on the topic.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PM:</font><hr>lets follow the entire path of the cue ball.
I aim straight at my aiming point, left spin causes deflection or squirt to the right, swerve brings it back in line, so I still hit at the same place I was aiming.<hr /></blockquote>... only for certain shot speeds and for a certain distance between the CB and OB.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PM:</font><hr>Now let's say we are cutting the shot to the left. At contact, the line of centers still leads to the pocket. But the ob travels slightly to the right of that line of centers. Is it your SIT that throws it to the right, or is it my CIT that throws it?
If it was a right hand cut shot, do CIT and SIT offset each other and allow me to make the shot even though I accidentally put some spin on the cb?<hr /></blockquote>Those are complicated question, but I think my January and February '07 articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) answer them.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PM:</font><hr>My point is that with all the variables that come up when side spin is applied, how can you be sure which variable is causing which effect?
Just some food for thought.<hr /></blockquote>That is an excellent point. If one is not good a compensating for squirt and swerve, discussions about throw are not as meaningful. I think my May '07 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) touches on all of these factors fairly well, but I agree that the "big picture" is still complicated and potentially confusing.

Regards, with respect,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-08-2007, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.<hr /></blockquote>So before you put this article online, you asked the editor of BD if you could put it online prior to publishing, and were told sure, go ahead? Did I understand that correctly?<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

If you must know, I did not ask the BD editor before posting this particular article online, but my posting practice is no secret. I have posted every single one of my articles (since Jan '04) on my website two months before publication. This article is no different. What was different this time is that I asked for feedback and comment because the article summarizes topics from many recent threads.

Thank you for your concern,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

Wow. You've been doing this since 2004? That's amazing. You haven't stated that BD knows you're doing this and you haven't stated that you asked for permission at any time, so I gather they don't know.

I suggest you ask for permission.

Fran

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Good for you,Dave-keep that positive energy coming /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>I think I've learned to develop an infinite supply of positive energy in recent months. Maybe I would make a good Buddhist. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace and love (in the spirit of the 30-degree-rule peace-sign technique),
Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Oops-busted again! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Stay well!

Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

You stay well too,
Dave

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.<hr /></blockquote>So before you put this article online, you asked the editor of BD if you could put it online prior to publishing, and were told sure, go ahead? Did I understand that correctly?<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

If you must know, I did not ask the BD editor before posting this particular article online, but my posting practice is no secret. I have posted every single one of my articles (since Jan '04) on my website two months before publication. This article is no different. What was different this time is that I asked for feedback and comment because the article summarizes topics from many recent threads.

Thank you for your concern,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

Wow. You've been doing this since 2004? That's amazing. You haven't stated that BD knows you're doing this and you haven't stated that you asked for permission at any time, so I gather they don't know.

I suggest you ask for permission.<hr /></blockquote>I've always assumed they have known since I've done it from day one. I think I told them several times. But in case they didn't know or forgot, and to make you happy, I just left a long phone message for Mason just to make sure. I think he will be happy to hear that he picked up a new subscriber today.

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
03-08-2007, 11:55 AM
4 pages of responses on a topic ,I guess people are interested in participating in, and your 3 posts are "looking for something bad" filled with sarcasm and "billiards digest police" Give me a break-you are a piece of work-still havent found that happy place yet,huh-misery LOVES company,doesnt it-what a shame!!

Who cares!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Carol

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>I found some parts that could mislead readers. You wrote about OE reducing or eliminating throw. OE does throw a ball just like IE. You should be using the word skid instead of throw in that area. It reality skid is not throw. There is no possible way to throw that much with CIT or english. Although a possible exception of throw that is or looks like cling is when the c/b and o/b frozen.<hr /></blockquote>I think the article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) is pretty clear on these effects, but there seems to be a disagreement with terminology. Throw is caused by friction between the balls when there is relative motion between the balls during impact. The only times there is no throw are with a English-free direct hit (no cut angle), or with a cut shot with exactly the "gearing" amount of OE (see my January '07 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf)). I (and I think others) use the term "cling" to refer to excessive throw caused by non-ideal surface conditions at the point of contact between the balls (e.g., a chalk smudge). The amount of throw can be much larger in these cases, unless "gearing" OE is used, in which case there is absolutely no throw or cling.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>The article mentions with new cloth chalk is not worn off as much.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, the claim was for "new and slick" cloth, not any "new" cloth.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>Where did that conclusion come from? I'd think with more nap it would or could be worn off at least the same as used. You mention often with new cloth the balls are new and polished. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that statement is far fetched. Most pool rooms simply can not afford that luxury very often. Its not uncommon for balls to be several years old.<hr /></blockquote>You make some good points here. I've revised the paragraph to read:

"With new, clean, and smooth balls, the amount of throw will be less as compared to other ball conditions. An exception is when a chalk smudge happens to appear exactly at the contact point between the CB and OB. In this case, the amount of throw will be much greater than normal. This effect is called “cling” (AKA “kick” or “skid”). The frequency of cling (excessive throw) will usually be worse with old, dirty, and/or rough balls. Also, on cloth that is new, thin, and slick, cling might occur more often, because chalk smudges on the CB might tend to wear off less easily. What might make this effect even more noticeable is if the balls also happen to be new, clean, and/or polished (e.g., which might often be the case with televised tournament conditions). Because the amount of throw is less with these ball conditions, when cling does occur, it can be strikingly noticeable. Anytime you see chalk smudges on the CB, you should wipe them off (or ask for a referee to wipe them off if you are in the middle of a tournament game). We have enough reasons to miss shots as it is without having to worry about excessive and unpredictable throw due to cling."

I think the wording is more appropriate now, based on what is known/observed, but please let me know if you still think I have inaccurately represented anything.

The new version of the article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) is now posted.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>I think you mentioned amount of skid on new cloth is less. I assure you big skids can and will happen on new cloth. If I read that wrong though never mind.<hr /></blockquote>I think you read this wrong, but if you still think the article is unclear here, please let me know.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>There is a tiny bit more that I won't go into, maybe later or maybe never. For the most part you provide readers with good information. Although the standard reply, see my articles NV whatever, some can be misleading and newer (even some well above average) players take this as solid gold. All I'm saying is, if you don't have proof, it shouldn't be in print. Just because a few people agree doesn't make it a fact.<hr /></blockquote>If you have other disagreements or comments about any more of the article's content, I wish you would share them.

Thank you for you comments and feedback,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-08-2007, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I've always assumed they have known since I've done it from day one. I think I told them several times. But in case they didn't know or forgot, and to make you happy, I just left a long phone message for Mason just to make sure. I think he will be happy to hear that he picked up a new subscriber today.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Dave,

It took how many, 5? 6? posts for you to acknowledge that you don't know if they know or not. I bet it never even occurred to you to ask. And by the way; you don't tell them. You ask them.

Fran

dr_dave
03-08-2007, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I've always assumed they have known since I've done it from day one. I think I told them several times. But in case they didn't know or forgot, and to make you happy, I just left a long phone message for Mason just to make sure. I think he will be happy to hear that he picked up a new subscriber today.<hr /></blockquote>Dave,

It took how many, 5? 6? posts for you to acknowledge that you don't know if they know or not. I bet it never even occurred to you to ask. And by the way; you don't tell them. You ask them.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Thank you again for your advice and concern. I did not write that "I didn't know on not." Those are your words. Now what is true is that I never officially asked for permission, not that I can remember anyway. But now that I think about it, I am sure that on several occasions I changed the article I had sent BD based on input I had received from my early posting. I can remember on at least three occasions where I told Mason about the feedback I had received from the CCB about my posted drafts. In fact, one or two times I sent changes to Mason at the very last minute so he could make the changes before the article went to press.

At any rate, I don't see how any of this is any of your business. I don't judge how you operate your business, and I don't think you have a right to judge how I manage my website, or how I help ensure that the product I provide to BD is of the highest quality possible.

I hope this is the last of your messages on this topic. It is getting quite tiring. I would rather spend my time doing something worthwhile.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-08-2007, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I've always assumed they have known since I've done it from day one. I think I told them several times. But in case they didn't know or forgot, and to make you happy, I just left a long phone message for Mason just to make sure. I think he will be happy to hear that he picked up a new subscriber today.<hr /></blockquote>Dave,

It took how many, 5? 6? posts for you to acknowledge that you don't know if they know or not. I bet it never even occurred to you to ask. And by the way; you don't tell them. You ask them.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Thank you again for your advice and concern. I did not write that "I didn't know on not." Those are your words. Now what is true is that I never officially asked for permission, not that I can remember anyway. But now that I think about it, I am sure that on several occasions I changed the article I had sent BD based on input I had received from my early posting. I can remember on at least three occasions where I told Mason about the feedback I had received from the CCB about my posted drafts. In fact, one or two times I sent changes to Mason at the very last minute so he could make the changes before the article went to press.

At any rate, I don't see how any of this is any of your business. I don't judge how you operate your business, and I don't think you have a right to judge how I manage my website, or how I help ensure that the product I provide to BD is of the highest quality possible.

I hope this is the last of your messages on this topic. It is getting quite tiring. I would rather spend my time doing something worthwhile.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

It's up to you whether we end this discussion. I always let you have the last word. This time I want the last word, so if you keep posting to me, then I'll answer.

Dave, in all the years I've been in this business, I can't think of one person who was arrogant enough to think they have the right to regularly circulate their articles prior to publication without clear permission from the publisher.

Ask George Fels. Do you think he would do something like that and then defend it on the basis that BD is probably grateful for all the information he provides? Never, never, never in a million years would George even entertain such thoughts. Only you.

I'm done if you are.

Fran

Rod
03-09-2007, 09:02 AM
It looks good Dave. The diagrams are clear as well which really helps the visual aspect. Years ago when I started playing there was very little in the way of illustrations. I only had one book and the info, although poor and misleading was my only guide. I just adapted and its all history now.

I think now with more accurate information the learning process should be easier for most. I'll say though, I was a doer opposed to a reader so it may not have speed ed up the process for me. I lean towards that same process today. As written in your article, take certain information with a grain of salt. To me that means, just like years ago and today, just do it, then observe what happened. But thats still not enough and honestly putting it in writing, for me, would be very difficult at best. So no added confusion, this game really needs more simplicity.

Rod

Billy_Bob
03-09-2007, 09:15 AM
I know some people in the periodicals business. "Small time" periodicals business that is.

These businesses are NOT big money making businesses. With the cost of postage and printing lately, some of these publications are going out of business.

The publications can't afford to pay contributors much money for their writings. In many cases the writer is paid nothing. The writer is sharing their knowledge just like people do on this forum. The publication is very grateful for these contributions.

Many of these publications start out as maybe a club newsletter or whatever. People in the club contribute articles. Then the publication grows larger if there are good things written. Then as it grows larger, they keep the same model - people with something to contribute send them articles. Then they print them in the publication. All very informal.

With large mega-bucks NEWS publications, it is of course a different story. The news stories submitted for publication are "beats" or "scoops". These news stories are kept secret so other publications can't print the stories first. In these cases the publications would have a "royal cow" if a writer posted his story on the internet prior to publication!

I don't know what the situation is with BD, but I know with similar sized publications, what a contributor does with *his* writings before or after publication is a "non issue". It is not a "selfish - me - mine" situation. It is a "giving and sharing with others" situation.

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It looks good Dave. The diagrams are clear as well which really helps the visual aspect. Years ago when I started playing there was very little in the way of illustrations. I only had one book and the info, although poor and misleading was my only guide. I just adapted and its all history now.

I think now with more accurate information the learning process should be easier for most. I'll say though, I was a doer opposed to a reader so it may not have speed ed up the process for me. I lean towards that same process today. As written in your article, take certain information with a grain of salt. To me that means, just like years ago and today, just do it, then observe what happened. But thats still not enough and honestly putting it in writing, for me, would be very difficult at best. So no added confusion, this game really needs more simplicity.<hr /></blockquote>
Rod,

Thanks again for your comments.

I understand your points about doing vs. thinking, and how simpler is better. Believe it or not, I agree 100%! Thinking (or reading) is not enough. Information is pretty much useless if it isn't put into practice, and knowledge is pretty much useless if it doesn't help produce results. For some people, information and knowledge won't help (in fact, it might even hurt); but for others (I hope many), maybe some things in my articles will make sense and help some people be more confident and less confused at the table (after they practice with the new information and knowledge).

Thanks again for your help,
Dave

Qtec
03-09-2007, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

Excellent article! I don't know how on earth you were able to cram so much information into such a short article, but you did it.

I think this is *the* article everyone should read, study, and try to understand if they want to be a good player. (Especially the part about not using english!)
<font color="blue"> How can you say that after its been shown that top players use a lot of E! </font color>

This subject is quite complex. I think you could spend the next year just writing articles explaining terms used in this article such as "pivot point", etc. <font color="blue"> The logical conclusion from this article could be that there are too many variables involved using E to be consistent [ as your comment shows] - but the reality is totally the opposite!
If a players actually had to compensate for CIT,SIT,skidding,swerve, cling and G_D knows what else- nobody would ever be able to run 3 FGN balls.</font color>

I also like it that you posted this ahead of time to get feedback. I think this is a good thing to do with such a complex topic.

Up to now I have just had the Shepard paper to link to when people on the internet ask about pivot points, BHE, etc. But all the math makes it Greek to most people. Good to have something written in "English" with diagrams!

Good work! Excellent writing!
<hr /></blockquote>




Q

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I know some people in the periodicals business. "Small time" periodicals business that is.

These businesses are NOT big money making businesses. With the cost of postage and printing lately, some of these publications are going out of business.

The publications can't afford to pay contributors much money for their writings. In many cases the writer is paid nothing. The writer is sharing their knowledge just like people do on this forum. The publication is very grateful for these contributions.

Many of these publications start out as maybe a club newsletter or whatever. People in the club contribute articles. Then the publication grows larger if there are good things written. Then as it grows larger, they keep the same model - people with something to contribute send them articles. Then they print them in the publication. All very informal.

With large mega-bucks NEWS publications, it is of course a different story. The news stories submitted for publication are "beats" or "scoops". These news stories are kept secret so other publications can't print the stories first. In these cases the publications would have a "royal cow" if a writer posted his story on the internet prior to publication!

I don't know what the situation is with BD, but I know with similar sized publications, what a contributor does with *his* writings before or after publication is a "non issue". It is not a "selfish - me - mine" situation. It is a "giving and sharing with others" situation.<hr /></blockquote>Billy_Bob,

You hit the nail on the proverbial head, especially concerning the instructional columns. (Although, the sometimes news-breaking feature stories might be another matter. I think the magazines might sometimes see this type of coverage as competitive).

BD has absolutely no problem with me posting my stuff early. In fact, they understand and appreciate the value of open posting. It's all about sharing the best and most accurate information possible.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
I think this is *the* article everyone should read, study, and try to understand if they want to be a good player. (Especially the part about not using english!)
<font color="blue"> How can you say that after its been shown that top players use a lot of E! </font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>
I hope the article doesn't imply that English should be avoided; in fact, I think it implies the opposite, as long as a player is comfortable compensating (consciously or subconsciously through intuition) for squirt and swerve.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>This subject is quite complex. I think you could spend the next year just writing articles explaining terms used in this article such as "pivot point", etc. <font color="blue"> The logical conclusion from this article could be that there are too many variables involved using E to be consistent [ as your comment shows] - but the reality is totally the opposite!
If a players actually had to compensate for CIT,SIT,skidding,swerve, cling and G_D knows what else- nobody would ever be able to run 3 FGN balls.</font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>I think any top player that uses lots of English knows how to compensate for all of these things; although, I bet most of them do it intuitively based on lots of experience. Nothing beats intuition built from years and years of practice and confidence-building experience.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
03-09-2007, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> How can you say that after its been shown that top players use a lot of E!... <hr /></blockquote>

Because there is a guy here where I live who tells day one beginners to use english on every shot! And when they start doing this, they start missing a lot of shots.

Then I come along and explain the problems involved with using english. And explain that they can accomplish quite a bit with follow, stop, draw, etc. Then they stop using english and begin pocketing balls again.

These players have thanked me for teaching them about these problems when using english. Note that after they have played for a few years, they slowly start to begin using english. But when they miss a shot when using english, they understand why.

So depends on who the audience is. I feel any advice to use english should come along with a suggestion to avoid it if possible. (For beginners.) If just pros and advanced players are reading the article, then maybe that would be a different story!

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm not sure...but did we establish that BD was a small time club newslatter, or a mega-buck news mag?
I also thought your post "English and compensation" was going to reveal the lucrative fees that you charge to write your column.
In my search for the hidden meanings here......I've decided that you were given a huge compliment...the pre-pub. concerns implied that by giving away their featured story, in advance of the magazine sales.....there would be no reason for many then, to purchase the mag.

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 10:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
BD has absolutely no problem with me posting my stuff early. In fact, they understand and appreciate the value of open posting. It's all about sharing the best and most accurate information possible.

Thanks,
Dave
<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher. All it would have taken was a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him. While you're at it, Dave, you can ask him if it's okay to post your articles at all, since they are the property of Billiards Digest.


Sorry for the bad news, but I've been trying to tell you that all along.

Fran

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 10:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmmm-I guess you "ratted" him out and accomplished your goal! From the goodness and kindness of your heart and your sorry you had to do it,but there was no alternative,right?
So, is Dr.Dave in trouble now? Does that make you feel GREAT?
I feel sorry for you!

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 10:52 AM
Hey Jack,
How are you?
[ QUOTE ]
.....there would be no reason for many then, to purchase the mag.


<hr /></blockquote>
If the ONLY reason they purchase or subsribe is STRICTLY for Daves artcles, then I'd agree,but I doubt thats the case,ya know?
I personnally enjoy the tournament and who's who /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Have a great day!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 10:55 AM
While not knowing anything about running a magazine...I disagree with Mike P on that stance.
The majority of posters here, I'd guess, subscribe to the mag...the casual reader here, might be intrigued enough by Dr. Dave's article, to go out and buy the mag. When I decided to subscribe again...after a bad experience with another pool mag....the issues arrived very late, if at all...I subscribe only for the instructional items, and the occasional report on tournament play...( the features on Derby City and the IPT though, were newsworthy enough to buy the issue.)
I'd have been "hooked" by DD's article....
Esquire is in the business of selling magazines, yet gives away a lot of what's inside...online
like this great quiz:
web page (http://www.esquire.com/junk-drawer/quiz/ESQ0307quiz)
So maybe Mr. P should consider Dr. Dave's article as a promo, or a tease...."more great stuff like this inside the mag"

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm not sure...but did we establish that BD was a small time club newslatter, or a mega-buck news mag?
I also thought your post "English and compensation" was going to reveal the lucrative fees that you charge to write your column.
In my search for the hidden meanings here......I've decided that you were given a huge compliment...the pre-pub. concerns implied that by giving away their featured story, in advance of the magazine sales.....there would be no reason for many then, to purchase the mag. <hr /></blockquote>Wolfie,

Thank you for explaining. Now I understand how Fran was giving me a huge compliment. I feel so embarrassed, because I had just assumed that something was bothering her. Now I see how Fran thought that my article might be a huge value-adding feature that will help BD sell through the roof. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif That would totally explain why she thought it was inappropriate for me post the article pre-print. I guess she thought that the editors at BD didn't know what they were doing by letting such a value be released before publication. Fran, thank you for the extreme flattery. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif I am so sorry I assumed negative intent in your postings. I feel so stupid now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Live and learn,
Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

PS: I hope everybody knows that I am kidding; although, I can see how some people might interpret this post as passive (or active) aggression. If so, I hope they don't take it too hard. I'm just trying to find some humor in this awkward situation.

DeadCrab
03-09-2007, 11:03 AM
********************
Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher.
***********************

Depends. Until the copyright has been assigned to a publication, the author can do whatever they want to with it. The publisher usually gets the rights as a condition of publication, but this is not necessarily the case.

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 11:04 AM
Now THAT was good! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Your killing me,Dave,a ha ha,ha ,ha,-you've got a great sense of humor-good job!
Have a very nice day!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

bsmutz
03-09-2007, 11:24 AM
I get the feeling BD is going to be taking a big hit in the circulation department once this scandal becomes public knowledge. Could be bigger than Watergate or Abscam! On the other hand, all the word of mouth publicity could push it up into the Playboy/Penthouse sales territory.
I know it's not going to bring tears to anyone's eyes or affect their pocketbook, but if Fran was the Willie Mosconi of pool instructors and lived next door to me, I'd pass on free lessons after this BS. It's downright childish in my opinion. If I were Dr. Dave, I'd probably be skipping the passive and going straight to the aggressive. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cornerman
03-09-2007, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DeadCrab:</font><hr> Depends. Until the copyright has been assigned to a publication, the author can do whatever they want to with it. The publisher usually gets the rights as a condition of publication, but this is not necessarily the case. <hr /></blockquote>I think in the end, there should be something explicitly agreed by both parties. I am guilty of having no clue how the publications and articles worked out for a staff writer or a free lancer. So, I asked a few people. There are industry considerations here, and I think many of you are answering without that in mind. Not to dismiss anybody's post, but the "I've got a friend who writes in periodicals...." type of posts is sure to raise eyebrowse considering how many people on this board write or haver written numerous articles for the billiard publications.

And of course, regardless of law, there is simply the courtesy of letting either party know when something not of the normal procedure is going to happen. In this case, Fran brings up an absolutely valid question. I would hope that Dr. Dave does have explicit blessing to share his articles prior to having it published. But, that's between him and Luby Publishing.

Fred

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 11:25 AM
Carol, welcome back !!!
I got a kick out of Dr. Dave's "value-added" post, also.
If there are concerns by the publisher over putting this article online, it should have been handled "in house"

bsmutz
03-09-2007, 11:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But, that's between him and Luby Publishing.<hr /></blockquote>
EXACTLY!

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 11:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling BD is going to be taking a big hit in the circulation department once this scandal becomes public knowledge. Could be bigger than Watergate or Abscam <hr /></blockquote>

Ha Ha Ha-hmmmmmm,what could we name it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
if Fran was the Willie Mosconi of pool instructors and lived next door to me, I'd pass on free lessons after this BS <hr /></blockquote>
This is the sad part-you could be very knowledgeable in certain areas and be titled "TEACHER" but to me, that means someone who not only knows,but who inspires ,encourages,and surrounds you with "positiveness" (like my kindergarten teacher /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
But when you have a personality that just goes OUT OF THEIR way to not ,just,publicly humiliate but to go as far as making phonecalls,give me a break-teacher or not,your history in my book-

Stay well!
Carol~thinking of a name............. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 11:46 AM
Jack,
Hey,thanks-glad to see your doing well!
I got a kick out of that post,too!
[ QUOTE ]
it should have been handled "in house"
<hr /></blockquote>

There you go-thats what I'm talking about-you go Jack!

Always a pleasure!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 12:16 PM
This doesn't belong here...but, speaking of mags....Esquire has the covers of all their mags on their site, dating back to 1933....interesting, visual Americana. It reminds me of the scene from the movie of Orwell's "Time Machine"...as the guy is going into the future...we are looking at the changing fashions in the Women's clothing store display window across the street.
F.Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemmingway were on the list of writers.....not bad reading for just $.50....but that was also a lot of money back then

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 12:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And of course, regardless of law, there is simply the courtesy of letting either party know when something not of the normal procedure is going to happen <hr /></blockquote>

Bingo. Once again, it all comes down to professionalism.

Fran

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 12:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher. All it would have taken was a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him. While you're at it, Dave, you can ask him if it's okay to post your articles at all, since they are the property of Billiards Digest.

Sorry for the bad news, but I've been trying to tell you that all along.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Congratulations!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> I get the feeling BD is going to be taking a big hit in the circulation department once this scandal becomes public knowledge. Could be bigger than Watergate or Abscam! On the other hand, all the word of mouth publicity could push it up into the Playboy/Penthouse sales territory.
I know it's not going to bring tears to anyone's eyes or affect their pocketbook, but if Fran was the Willie Mosconi of pool instructors and lived next door to me, I'd pass on free lessons after this BS. It's downright childish in my opinion. If I were Dr. Dave, I'd probably be skipping the passive and going straight to the aggressive. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>I would never dare being aggressive (passive or active) towards Fran ever again in the future.

Sad on a Friday,
Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher. All it would have taken was a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him. While you're at it, Dave, you can ask him if it's okay to post your articles at all, since they are the property of Billiards Digest.

Sorry for the bad news, but I've been trying to tell you that all along.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Congratulations!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Wake up, Dave. This has always been Panozzo's policy. Do you honestly think I can tell him what to do?
For cripes sake! This is nothing more than SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. Have respect for your publisher and ask first. Mike Panozzo and Billiards Digest deserve that from you and every other person who writes for them.

I understand that you're mad. You got caught.

Fran

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 01:21 PM
My own take on the situation is that there was only one person concerned about the legality of your post until a couple of days ago.
If you now have to double-check every post beforehand, to make sure you haven't used similar wording in an already published or an upcoming article.....then the biggest losers here will be the members that enjoy your contributions.
In fact, given the "Carrie Nation" type concerns, over your posts...you may have to give up your seat on the pool section, and join in the melee down in the npr....
You won't have to conceal your aggressive side...as it's a no holds barred....brawl.
'course you'll have to register a party affiliation first, so we can decide...friend or foe....
All in all, this is a sad turn of events...somebody may have won the battle....but I think lost the war....the term "mean-spirited" comes to mind.

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 01:27 PM
Sorry to hear this Dave,

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. <hr /></blockquote>

No, you didnt /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.
<hr /></blockquote>
Everybody has power in this industry-its the way you use it that makes you who you are!

Carol

Greg in VA
03-09-2007, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
And of course, regardless of law, there is simply the courtesy of letting either party know when something not of the normal procedure is going to happen <hr /></blockquote>

Bingo. Once again, it all comes down to professionalism.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me! I CANNOT believe how petty you are........

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 01:33 PM
Hey Jack,
[ QUOTE ]
All in all, this is a sad turn of events...somebody may have won the battle....but I think lost the war....the term "mean-spirited" comes to mind. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree!
My brother always said "Leopards don't change their spots"
After almost a year of being away from posting here, this whole scenario just proved it!Unbelievable!
Stay well,Jack!
Carol

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 01:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Bingo. Once again, it all comes down to professionalism.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Oh yeah and your "real" professional-your a disgrace!-

(nah,nah,nah,nah,nah,Im telling on you-Im getting the last word-Im going to hurt you&amp;harm you,no matter what the consequence-)
The dirt ALWAYS comes out in the wash!

Greg in VA
03-09-2007, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher. All it would have taken was a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him. While you're at it, Dave, you can ask him if it's okay to post your articles at all, since they are the property of Billiards Digest.

Sorry for the bad news, but I've been trying to tell you that all along.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Congratulations!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Wake up, Dave. This has always been Panozzo's policy. Do you honestly think I can tell him what to do?
For cripes sake! This is nothing more than SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. Have respect for your publisher and ask first. Mike Panozzo and Billiards Digest deserve that from you and every other person who writes for them.

I understand that you're mad. You got caught.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

He didn't get "caught" He got ratted out by a so called professional.....
I have lurked here for years. And the one thing that has ALWAYS been consistant is your POOR ATTITUDE.....

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 02:57 PM
Look, Greg, I'm sorry you think I ratted him out and that I have a poor attitude. I know I probably can't change your mind about that now. But just so you know, I'm not who you you think I am. I'm actually a kind and generous person, and a bit rough around the edges sometimes, but my heart is in the right place; and yes, I do stand up to the bullies around here. Bullies come in many different forms. They even come in the form of wolves in sheeps clothing, particluarly around here, lately.

I didn't make any secret phone calls behind anyone's back. I posted exactly what I did.

Maybe someday we'll meet and hopefully I can change your mind.

Fran

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 03:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Sorry for jumping in, but I think a correction is in order here. It's a no-brainer that permission for this kind of thing must come from the publisher. All it would have taken was a phone call to Mike Panozzo to find out that the answer is no, he does not allow posting of articles prior to publication. I just spoke to him. While you're at it, Dave, you can ask him if it's okay to post your articles at all, since they are the property of Billiards Digest.

Sorry for the bad news, but I've been trying to tell you that all along.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

Congratulations!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>


Wake up, Dave. This has always been Panozzo's policy. Do you honestly think I can tell him what to do?
For cripes sake! This is nothing more than SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. Have respect for your publisher and ask first. Mike Panozzo and Billiards Digest deserve that from you and every other person who writes for them.

I understand that you're mad. You got caught.<hr /></blockquote>Fran,

You are only damaging your own reputation by continuing this harassment. I hope you realize that some day.

FYI, I was very surprised and disappointed to find out that Mike thought it was inappropriate for me to post my articles for comment prior to printing. I still don't think the practice is wrong ... morally, legally, or ethically. It certainly doesn't violate anything in the signed agreement I have with BD (I finally found it). I can't believe you childishly see your phone-call result as me getting "caught." I wasn't doing anything wrong, and I still think it is appropriate, and even beneficial, for me to post my articles (they are mine, by the way) early for comment and improvement. If Mike and Mason decide they want me to discontinue this practice, I will be disappointed but I will comply. I think everybody has benefited from my postings, including the CCB, BD, and BD's readership. It would be a shame if I am forced to discontinue the practice just because of your phone call.

BTW, I don't appreciate you trying to lecture me about the publishing business. I'm sure I have worked with far more publishing people than you have (for textbooks, for articles in several magazines in several industries, newspaper reporters and publishers, journal publishers, and mass-market book publishing people). I think I know a lot more about copyright privileges and responsibilities than you do.

I hope you don't think I am taking this personally or that I have anything personal against you. I just don't agree with what you are saying, and I am disappointed that you needlessly created this whole fiasco.

Dave

wolfdancer
03-09-2007, 03:11 PM
"This is not about winning"
nevertheless....."Congratulations !!"
Getting "caught" though implies one was trying to get away with something. I doubt that he knowingly violated any written or unwritten agreement.
His vocation is teaching....his avocation is conducting research and authoring articles, sharing his findings...about this sport.
I think these often irritate the professional teachers that derive their income from the game....
It's noticeable that the only negatives come from that group.
In other words he's both an amateur player and hasn't researched the legal (and moral?)nuances of writing about the sport, both as a columnist, and "Joe Blow, pool conversationalist"
As such, I had him as a 3/1 underdog to win this "contest", but couldn't get a bet down in time at Vegas.
This matter could have been handled through some pm's,if the intent was just to protect BD's rights...imho
But it's over and done with....and Dr. Dave will have to be careful how he dots his "i"s and crosses his "t"s from now on....maybe he could submit any future messages to a review board before posting them here?

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "This is not about winning"
nevertheless....."Congratulations !!"
Getting "caught" though implies one was trying to get away with something. I doubt that he knowingly violated any written or unwritten agreement.
His vocation is teaching....his avocation is conducting research and authoring articles, sharing his findings...about this sport.
I think these often irritate the professional teachers that derive their income from the game....
It's noticeable that the only negatives come from that group.
In other words he's both an amateur player and hasn't researched the legal (and moral?)nuances of writing about the sport, both as a columnist, and "Joe Blow, pool conversationalist"
As such, I had him as a 3/1 underdog to win this "contest", but couldn't get a bet down in time at Vegas.
This matter could have been handled through some pm's,if the intent was just to protect BD's rights...imho
But it's over and done with....and Dr. Dave will have to be careful how he dots his "i"s and crosses his "t"s from now on....maybe he could submit any future messages to a review board before posting them here? <hr /></blockquote>I can neither confirm no deny that I have read this post or that I agree or disagree with any of its contents. Also, if I have offended the "pool industry" with said comments in reply to your post, I am deeply sorry. I will try my best to not let it happen again.

I probably should have consulted my lawyer before posting this, but I decided to be a free spirit for a change. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards, and thank you for helping to incorporate humor in this ridiculous situation,
Dave

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 03:33 PM
How can you blame me for your negligence, Dave? I'm glad it was you who noted that you are in the publishing industry. You ought to know better. You know darn well that all you had to say after my first post was:

Oops, I'm not sure if BD knows about this . Thanks for the reminder, I'll make it a point to contact them and ask.

It would have been all over at that point. Done deal. Finished. No more discussion.

But no, that's not what you did. You went on and on about how grateful they were about all the information you've provided, (I'm paraphrasing)implying that is the reason why they are allowing you to post your articles prematurely.

Holy Smokes, Dave. I mean, c'mon. You brought this on, not me. I'm just supposed to sit back and buy into all this, knowing that you're talking out of the side of your mouth. It's just plain wrong.

When I first came into contact with you, if you can remember, I was very enthusiastic about you being on the scene. I even told you I would consider using your book as a text in my classes, with the exception of the fundamentals part in the beginning.

I'm sorry I've had to change my mind about you. It's not like I wanted to. I tried to give you every benefit of the doubt possible. There are people here who know that. I don't want to drag Fred into this but his description of you was exactly how I felt. It's tough dealing with you Dave, because you can't take criticism. Our last exchange is living proof.

You don't have to watch every step you take with me, Dave. I make lots of mistakes but when it comes to the big things, I try to pay attention and to try to use a little common sense. That's all I've ever asked you to do. Is that too much to ask?

Fran

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 03:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> How can you blame me for your negligence, Dave? I'm glad it was you who noted that you are in the publishing industry. You ought to know better. You know darn well that all you had to say after my first post was:

Oops, I'm not sure if BD knows about this . Thanks for the reminder, I'll make it a point to contact them and ask.

It would have been all over at that point. Done deal. Finished. No more discussion.

But no, that's not what you did. You went on and on about how grateful they were about all the information you've provided, (I'm paraphrasing)implying that is the reason why they are allowing you to post your articles prematurely.

Holy Smokes, Dave. I mean, c'mon. You brought this on, not me. I'm just supposed to sit back and buy into all this, knowing that you're talking out of the side of your mouth. It's just plain wrong.

When I first came into contact with you, if you can remember, I was very enthusiastic about you being on the scene. I even told you I would consider using your book as a text in my classes, with the exception of the fundamentals part in the beginning.

I'm sorry I've had to change my mind about you. It's not like I wanted to. I tried to give you every benefit of the doubt possible. There are people here who know that. I don't want to drag Fred into this but his description of you was exactly how I felt. It's tough dealing with you Dave, because you can't take criticizm. Our last exchange is living proof.

You don't have to watch every step you take with me, Dave. I make lots of mistakes but when it comes to the big things, I try to pay attention and to try to use a little common sense. That's all I've ever asked you to do. Is that too much to ask?<hr /></blockquote>
I've always been open, honest, and sincere. Maybe that's the problem ... sometimes, I don't hold back when I probably should. I know I haven't always been sensitive and respectful, and I know I have upset you in the past. I do have regrets about some of those exchanges. But with this one, I have no regrets whatsoever. I think it is clear you had negative intent from the beginning, and you haven't let up. I know you don't agree with this, and therein lies the problem. We obviously have a strong disagreement on this issue, and neither of us will be able to see the other person's side because we obviously have different beliefs, natures, approaches, and outlooks. I'm not saying that is bad ... I'm just saying that it results in interesting interpersonal communication, which can often be taxing for both of us. Maybe we should just give up trying to reach each other on this topic and try again on more interesting and worthwhile topics in the future.

Peace,
Dave

Greg in VA
03-09-2007, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Look, Greg, I'm sorry you think I ratted him out and that I have a poor attitude. I know I probably can't change your mind about that now. But just so you know, I'm not who you you think I am. I'm actually a kind and generous person, and a bit rough around the edges sometimes, but my heart is in the right place; and yes, I do stand up to the bullies around here. Bullies come in many different forms. They even come in the form of wolves in sheeps clothing, particluarly around here, lately.

I didn't make any secret phone calls behind anyone's back. I posted exactly what I did.


Maybe someday we'll meet and hopefully I can change your mind.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I have read enough of your posts over the years that it seems like I have already met you. I CANNOT imagine any senario that I would want to meet you in person. Luckily, I saw your TV gig several months ago, so I know what you look like. At 51, I'm not as fast as I used to be, but with that motivation (meeting you) I'm sure I can out run ya! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
03-09-2007, 05:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've always been open, honest, and sincere. Maybe that's the problem ... sometimes, I don't hold back when I probably should. I know I haven't always been sensitive and respectful, and I know I have upset you in the past. I do have regrets about some of those exchanges. But with this one, I have no regrets whatsoever. I think it is clear you had negative intent from the beginning, and you haven't let up. I know you don't agree with this, and therein lies the problem. We obviously have a strong disagreement on this issue, and neither of us will be able to see the other person's side because we obviously have different beliefs, natures, approaches, and outlooks. I'm not saying that is bad ... I'm just saying that it results in interesting interpersonal communication, which can often be taxing for both of us. Maybe we should just give up trying to reach each other on this topic and try again on more interesting and worthwhile topics in the future.

Peace,
Dave
<hr /></blockquote>

You're right in that there is much we don't agree on, particularly who's standing up to whom.

I'm still totally amazed that it never even dawned on you that what you were doing could be wrong. I still can't get over it. There are some things that I will agree to as simply a difference of opinion, but definitely not here.
Just to let you know, I'm done here. Have the last say if you like.


Peace,
Fran

pooltchr
03-09-2007, 05:30 PM
Dave,
How can such an educated person make such a stupid mistake? Here you write an article every month for a magazine, and then go and post it RIGHT THEIR ON THE MAGAZINE'S OWN WEB SITE!!! This is not the way you go about doing things when you are trying to go behind someone's back!
Why wouldn't you post it on the web site of a competitor? Seems to me like you could have been much more underhanded and sneaky with this decision. When you are trying to do something behind their back, this is probably not a wise decision, knowing that they probably have a pretty good idea of what goes on here. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?????????
Steve
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I honestly thing this whole thread has taken a pretty ridiculous turn)

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I've always been open, honest, and sincere. Maybe that's the problem ... sometimes, I don't hold back when I probably should. I know I haven't always been sensitive and respectful, and I know I have upset you in the past. I do have regrets about some of those exchanges. But with this one, I have no regrets whatsoever. I think it is clear you had negative intent from the beginning, and you haven't let up. I know you don't agree with this, and therein lies the problem. We obviously have a strong disagreement on this issue, and neither of us will be able to see the other person's side because we obviously have different beliefs, natures, approaches, and outlooks. I'm not saying that is bad ... I'm just saying that it results in interesting interpersonal communication, which can often be taxing for both of us. Maybe we should just give up trying to reach each other on this topic and try again on more interesting and worthwhile topics in the future.

Peace,
Dave
<hr /></blockquote>

You're right in that there is much we don't agree on, particularly who's standing up to whom.

I'm still totally amazed that it never even dawned on you that what you were doing could be wrong. I still can't get over it. There are some things that I will agree to as simply a difference of opinion, but definitely not here.
Just to let you know, I'm done here. Have the last say if you like.<hr /></blockquote>Thank you for the offer of the final word this time. I'll let you have it next time.

Again, I am still convinced that I did nothing wrong, and I hope Mike and Mason at BD will allow me to continue to post my article drafts. But I will go along with whatever they decide. I still think Billiards Digest is the best pool magazine out there, and I trust their judgment.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
03-09-2007, 05:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dave,
How can such an educated person make such a stupid mistake? Here you write an article every month for a magazine, and then go and post it RIGHT THEIR ON THE MAGAZINE'S OWN WEB SITE!!! This is not the way you go about doing things when you are trying to go behind someone's back!
Why wouldn't you post it on the web site of a competitor? Seems to me like you could have been much more underhanded and sneaky with this decision. When you are trying to do something behind their back, this is probably not a wise decision, knowing that they probably have a pretty good idea of what goes on here. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?????????
Steve
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I honestly thing this whole thread has taken a pretty ridiculous turn) <hr /></blockquote>
Steve,

Thanks for you tongue-and-cheek analysis of the situation. I hadn't thought of this angle of defense ... it is quite intriguing.

Regards,
Dave

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 07:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't make any secret phone calls behind anyone's back. I posted exactly what I did <hr /></blockquote>

So that makes it right? Because you told everyone?
Go rob a bank and let us know about that,too,Fran!
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duxk,its a rat!

CarolNYC
03-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Dave,
I hope everything works out for you /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Have a good night!
Carol

Rich R.
03-09-2007, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Again, I am still convinced that I did nothing wrong, and I hope Mike and Mason at BD will allow me to continue to post my article drafts. <hr /></blockquote>
Dr. Dave, for the life of me, I can't understand how an educated man like you doesn't believe anything is wrong with what you have done.
At the very least, there is a huge ethical problem here.
BD pays you to write an article each month and that article is presumed to be original and unpublished. IMHO, putting the article on your web site is publishing it. Therefore it is not unpublished when it appears in BD. You are putting your personal web site ahead of the magazine that is paying you.
I would love to know why integrity goes out the window when the internet is involved. Everyone thinks they can do whatever they want to do.
I know this doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, but, if I were in charge of BD, I would drop you like a hot potato.
Fortunately, for you, I'm not in charge.

Qtec
03-09-2007, 10:23 PM
Hi Carol.
Personally, I don't have a problem with Dave showing the board his first draft of an article for BD. He did say he was looking for suggestions and comment on the accuracy and content. What BD will get is Dave's article/research and conclusions but with OUR input. Dave is free to consider or dismiss the advice/suggestions from many experienced players/teachers/instructors that frequent the CCB, but I,m sure the published article will be different from the first draft that was shown on here. [ should be /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif]

I'm sure we all welcome you posting again but calling Fran a rat is totally uncalled for and without basis in fact!

Fran would give you her last dollar. She DOES have a heart of gold. I met her. I know a genuine person when I meet one.
nAz is a whole different story. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just kidding nAz.

Question Carol, has Fran ever done anything for you?
Another question, how did you get started on the Pro Tour. Did you win many tournaments before joining?

Q............loves Fran........doesn't always agree tho. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.still learning........

CarolNYC
03-10-2007, 07:10 AM
Hi Q,
I dont have much time-but I'll answer as much as I can /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Question Carol, has Fran ever done anything for you? <hr /></blockquote>
She trained me for a few months,along with Tony Robles,Danny Barouty and I also trained with Steve Jennings /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Another question, how did you get started on the Pro Tour <hr /></blockquote>
I went to the 2003 Nationals with Fran,strictly as a travelling companion,spectator, and I was sitting with Candi-there was a big N,orester grounding many planes-6 players couldnt show up-Candi kept nudging me to tell them 'Im eligible to play if they need someone" I was scared,but after the fifth nudge, I went up and said Im here and have the entry-after that, I was invited by rank /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Did you win many tournaments before joining?
<hr /></blockquote>
No, strictly played the NEWT tour and maintained top 3 status-won a few qualifiers after that /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Very briefly, I was reading this topic because I was interested in the OE question-playing straight pool now on a league, I rarely use it-Im centerball most of the time unless, like Steve said, to come off rail,maybe to break up a cluster or get my cueball somewhere,so, I was enjoying the responses because,I DO learn alot from everyone here-honestly, anyways, I come upon Frans post-way out of the blue,then the second and then the 3rd, and Im like, "What the heck is going on" and I just got upset-I believe Fran should have PRVATELY emailed Dave, told him he may be wrong and what her intentions were going to be if he didnt take care of it, but,instead, she publicly called him out on it-for what, God knows-to me, it was to cause harm and humiliation-
I truly respect your concern ,but,people just have to grow up sometimes,ya know? and just "Be nice!"
Nice chatting with you, I hope I answered your question-have to go now-
Have a great day!
Stay well!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cornerman
03-10-2007, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I was very surprised and disappointed to find out that Mike thought it was inappropriate for me to post my articles for comment prior to printing. I still don't think the practice is wrong ... morally, legally, or ethically. <hr /></blockquote>I really hope that you do actually have a contract that allows you to do what you've done (publish a to-be-paid-for article). If not, at this point it's tough for anyone in the publication industry to understand how you can't see an issue with it.

I agree with Qtec in that you are publicly gathering information, and certainly the public that you gather that information should in turn be informed of what you're going to write about it. So, therein lies the rub. How do you inform us without pre-publishing your article? I think an outline or something that isn't the article would suffice.

Nevertheless, if anyone wants my opinion, when Dr. Dave said that he had a draft of the article for our viewing pleasure, I think that every person that either has articles, photos, etc. published in articles and/or understands the process immediately raised their eyebrows questioning the legality and ethics of that action. The fact that Mike and Mason have an issue with it should speak volumes and confim that there are issues taken. If you didn't realize it would be an issue, now you do. No use making things worse.

It has nothing to do with being a nice generous guy.

Fred

Greg in VA
03-10-2007, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> FYI, I was very surprised and disappointed to find out that Mike thought it was inappropriate for me to post my articles for comment prior to printing. I still don't think the practice is wrong ... morally, legally, or ethically. <hr /></blockquote>I really hope that you do actually have a contract that allows you to do what you've done (publish a to-be-paid-for article). If not, at this point it's tough for anyone in the publication industry to understand how you can't see an issue with it.

I agree with Qtec in that you are publicly gathering information, and certainly the public that you gather that information should in turn be informed of what you're going to write about it. So, therein lies the rub. How do you inform us without pre-publishing your article? I think an outline or something that isn't the article would suffice.

Nevertheless, if anyone wants my opinion, when Dr. Dave said that he had a draft of the article for our viewing pleasure, I think that every person that either has articles, photos, etc. published in articles and/or understands the process immediately raised their eyebrows questioning the legality and ethics of that action. The fact that Mike and Mason have an issue with it should speak volumes and confim that there are issues taken. If you didn't realize it would be an issue, now you do. No use making things worse.

It has nothing to do with being a nice generous guy.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, At the risk of becoming an outcast on this board that I've lurked at for so long, to me this whole ugly mess comes down to motive.
As I see it, Dr. Dave did what was expedient to provide the end user with the best, most accurate info he could. I have seen many other threads where he was CRUCIFIED for passing on info which you and others disputed (which will ALWAYS be your right) as being opinion vs. factual.
While his current attempt to "edit" his article using the VAST array of info on the board may be un-ethical to the "publishing community", to me (and several others in this thread" his motive seems pure. In any case, the "interference" between the Dr. and B.D. by other parties is equally un-ethical given the situation of the seemingly pure motive by the Dr. Whom among us has not chosen the expedient route to get something done we are passionate about, particularly when it seems to hurt no one.

I question the motive of this round (and other rounds) of attacks on the Dr. I have never met him, have none of his books, and only given the briefest looks of the MOUNTAIN of info that he has collated. But there seems to be a consistant layer of tension between him and a MINORITY of others (most of whom attempt to teach) on this board. This is an UNBIASED observation from myself after reading this stuff for years.

The current drama compelled me to crawl out of the woodwork this time. I am LOATH to internet argueing, but I felt I could no longer remain silent. It seems obvious that Fran has an agenda with the Dr., and equally obvious that if you don't, she at least seems to view you as her ally in this.

I work in a lab and realise the danger in not attacking invalid info. This would seem to go WAY BEYOND the normal disagreements over info. It is personal. Why? Who's motives are most suspect here?

I have read may of your posts over the years and have found you to be a thought provoking, very lucid, well spoken and in general delightful read. I hope you can give some SERIOUS thought as to what is REALLY driving this.

This is my last post on this matter. PLEASE understand that I have NO AXE to grind. I hope that the infrequent posts I make don't mean that my opinion doesn't have merit. (and yes, I am COMPLETELY aware it is ONLY MY OPINION)

wolfdancer
03-10-2007, 11:37 AM
Not only fortunate for Dr. Dave, for lucky for the rest of us that enjoy his contributions here ( and probably fortunate for BD, as well). I don't know anything about
work-product, intellectual rights,etc...so I Googled "publishing rights"...and from the U. of Arizona site,I gather "academics" tend to rush their findings into print.....while at the Oxford University Press Site, they demand an exclusive rights agreement before publishing, while allowing the writer to keep his copyright:
" An exclusive license enables the centralized and efficient management of permissions and licensing, ensuring the widest dissemination of the content through intermediaries;
# Exclusive rights also enable OUP to take measures on behalf of our authors against infringement, inappropriate use of an article, libel or plagiarism" libel....?

From your statement:
"BD pays you to write an article each month and that article is presumed to be original and unpublished. IMHO, putting the article on your web site is publishing it. Therefore it is not unpublished when it appears in BD. You are putting your personal web site ahead of the magazine that is paying you."
From your statement, it appears you are not only privy to the contractual agreement itself,which must include some exclusivity clause, like Oxford demands??? ,it also seems you have ruled out the "didn't think I was doing anything wrong" statement, and came up with the reason for the ethics violation....as I read it...promoting his site at BD's expense?????
Kind of a leap of faith...????
I agree with your take on internet integrity, or lack thereof.. some people think it gives them accusatory rights against others, and then a chance to redress the other party in print.
I'd love to join in on the fun, but my faith tells me I can't cast the first stone.

wolfdancer
03-10-2007, 11:49 AM
Dr. Dave, the problem as I see it, it's like one man, trying to defend the fort, while the barbarians are attacking.
You are alone, defending yourself against all these allegations.....
Obviously you need help....
I suggest you join the N.W.U.:
The National Writers Union is the trade union for freelance and contract writers: journalists, book authors, business and technical writers, web content providers, and poets. With the combined strength of 3,500 members in 17 local chapters nationwide, and with the support of the United Automobile Workers (UAW), the Union works to defend the rights and improve the economic and working conditions of all writers.

Notice that they are supported by the UAW....and that's where Deeman comes in...as a former UAW elected official, he has experience in defending these types of charges.
Just post that all inquiries,accusations, defamations, etc...be directed
to Deeman's attention....for consideration, and adjudication

Gayle in MD
03-10-2007, 12:01 PM
Tap Tap Tap, well said. It would seem that Dr. Dave's intentions in all this deserve merit, and that his business relationships, and business decisions, are his own business. I can't see where his actions called for any direction or scrutiny from other posters, or their interference between him, and BD. IMO, this has all been blown way out of proprotion.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
03-10-2007, 12:05 PM
Wow, you mean there are still workers unions to protect workers in this country? Gee, I thought Ronald Reagan and George Bush had taken care of that problem. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Billy_Bob
03-10-2007, 12:19 PM
The issue here is "research". Getting the "facts" correct.

Research is not a "do-it-alone in secrecy" type of thing. Research requires teamwork, collaboration, sharing ideas, getting feedback from others, etc.

The Internet was first started by the U.S. government so researchers could more easily and quickly collaborate / share /discuss things they were researching. Back in the early days it was called "ARPANET".

What happens in this area is that a particular researcher will discover something. Finds a few facts about something new, but might not be able to unravel the entire thing. So he then shares his research / findings with others in the field. Sometimes another person can see an error in the research the first person did not notice. Or someone may suggest ideas for additional research which will help toward unraveling the mystery.

In general, "Two heads are better than one!"

"Teamwork" is much better than one person working by himself when it comes to research.

And this is exactly what Dr. Dave is doing. He is posting his findings here and asking for feedback and comments. Sometimes someone will notice something which is not correct. Then modifications are made. Suggestions are made for additional research.

And what do you and I get?

As a result of this process, we get ACCURATE and TRUE research. QUALITY research!

We can then read the "finished product" and know that it is based in fact - that it has been reviewed by some of the best players in the sport. Then we can apply this to our games.

I feel that we will get the "best quality" research by continued sharing of this information prior to publication. And that is the bottom line. I'm sure BD would rather have accurate information published than information which is partially in error.

Note that this "open discussion" vs. "shrouded in secrecy" argument about research is nothing new. In the past, the "chiefs" have screamed bloody murder about keeping certain research secret. And the researchers have fought tooth and nail to be allowed to share / discuss their research with others in the field.

wolfdancer
03-10-2007, 12:49 PM
I'd respond directly to Greg's thoughtful post, but he's trying to avoid getting swept up in this "morality play"
Did I say morality play?....it reads more like it came directly from "Games People Play"
"The book describes life as a series of games in which people interact through a patterned and predictable series of transactions which are superficially plausible but actually conceal motivations and lead to a well-defined predictable outcome."
Hey, we not only gots Ids here, but egos....and super-egos
As I see it...just a chance to deliver some "comeuppance" to Dr. Dave, while showcasing one's own superior ethos

wolfdancer
03-10-2007, 01:06 PM
We meet secretly at forbidden campsites, where we play old
Woodie Guthrie/ Pete Seeger songs, along with some by Joan Baez......We open each meeting with prayer for the souls of
Sacco and Vanzetti....unjustly executed we believe,...the root cause ... Sacco's impassioned speech attacking the treatment of the working class, by the ruling class.
If only they had the Patriot Act in place back then....they could have skipped the trial formality, the witnesses perjured testimony...and imprisoned them both in some secret CIA prison......

Gayle in MD
03-10-2007, 02:01 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rich R.
03-10-2007, 04:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>From your statement, it appears you are not only privy to the contractual agreement itself,which must include some exclusivity clause, like Oxford demands??? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">No, I am not privy to the contract between Dr. Dave and BD. I made my statement based on the basic assumption that, if a magazine is paying you to write an article, at the very least, that magazine should get to publish it first. To me, this seems to be basic ethical behavior. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>,it also seems you have ruled out the "didn't think I was doing anything wrong" statement, and came up with the reason for the ethics violation....as I read it...promoting his site at BD's expense?????
Kind of a leap of faith...????<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> Dr. Dave is a published author, in addition to being a very well educated man. I don't think ignorance is an acceptable defense, in this case. If he didn't know, he should have found out. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I agree with your take on internet integrity, or lack thereof.. some people think it gives them accusatory rights against others, and then a chance to redress the other party in print.
I'd love to join in on the fun, but my faith tells me I can't cast the first stone. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> An others use the internet to defend those who have been accused and redress the accusers in print.
In the end, this is only an internet forum, where all are able to post opinions. The real issues of this matter will be settled between Dr. Dave and BD and our discussions don't really mean a whole lot. </font color>

<font color="red"> While I am here, let me bring up another point.
Some have attacked Fran for "ratting out" Dr. Dave to BD and getting him in trouble. Has anyone considered the fact that Fran has a long history with powers that be at BD. The fact that she can pick up the phone and call Mike Panozzo implies that there is a working relationship and possibly a friendship there. Should she be condemmed for looking out for the interests of a friend? </font color>

Greg in VA
03-10-2007, 06:20 PM
Judging from the PMs I have recieved (FWIW many more positive than negative) I feel the need to clarify my motive for inserting myself into this drama, and as such I am making a lame attempt to explain why I am posting again after I said I wouldn't.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am not a Dr. Dave supporter........ Nor am I a Fran detractor, or....... you get the picture.

Fran, if you see this, I apoligise for the overly harsh remark about meeting you someday. I was going for a laugh, and I was upset with your WRITTEN POSITION (and positions WRITTEN in the past) I frequently try to use humor to deflate tense situations. But it was hurtful and I am not typically like that.

In internet land WE ARE WHAT WE WRITE...... This is what we are judged on, it is what I have judged you on, and I don't want to be judged for MY hurtful remark. But I DO regret it.

That is why I avoid posting... Eventually I will make a mistake..... Maybe we can all learn from mine.....

I AM DONE!!!!!!!! (crawling back under my rock)

CarolNYC
03-10-2007, 07:42 PM
HHmmmmm,my response is missing-
Well,Rich,
If "helping a friend was the case" it would have been mentioned in at least one of her posts-phone calls have been made in the past which I personally know about-
I respect the knowledge,but not the person!
See ya next week!
Carol

CarolNYC
03-10-2007, 07:45 PM
Sorry Greg that you got caught up in this-
I ,too,have received pm's and emails,FWIW positive,but I've been receiving "take a look at this' for the past 2 years-oh well!
Take care!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

dr_dave
03-10-2007, 08:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> The issue here is "research". Getting the "facts" correct.

Research is not a "do-it-alone in secrecy" type of thing. Research requires teamwork, collaboration, sharing ideas, getting feedback from others, etc.

The Internet was first started by the U.S. government so researchers could more easily and quickly collaborate / share /discuss things they were researching. Back in the early days it was called "ARPANET".

What happens in this area is that a particular researcher will discover something. Finds a few facts about something new, but might not be able to unravel the entire thing. So he then shares his research / findings with others in the field. Sometimes another person can see an error in the research the first person did not notice. Or someone may suggest ideas for additional research which will help toward unraveling the mystery.

In general, "Two heads are better than one!"

"Teamwork" is much better than one person working by himself when it comes to research.

And this is exactly what Dr. Dave is doing. He is posting his findings here and asking for feedback and comments. Sometimes someone will notice something which is not correct. Then modifications are made. Suggestions are made for additional research.

And what do you and I get?

As a result of this process, we get ACCURATE and TRUE research. QUALITY research!

We can then read the "finished product" and know that it is based in fact - that it has been reviewed by some of the best players in the sport. Then we can apply this to our games.

I feel that we will get the "best quality" research by continued sharing of this information prior to publication. And that is the bottom line. I'm sure BD would rather have accurate information published than information which is partially in error.

Note that this "open discussion" vs. "shrouded in secrecy" argument about research is nothing new. In the past, the "chiefs" have screamed bloody murder about keeping certain research secret. And the researchers have fought tooth and nail to be allowed to share / discuss their research with others in the field.<hr /></blockquote>Billy_Bob,

Thank you for your remarks. I agree.

Dave

dr_dave
03-11-2007, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>Dr. Dave, for the life of me, I can't understand how an educated man like you doesn't believe anything is wrong with what you have done.
At the very least, there is a huge ethical problem here.
BD pays you to write an article each month and that article is presumed to be original and unpublished. IMHO, putting the article on your web site is publishing it. Therefore it is not unpublished when it appears in BD. You are putting your personal web site ahead of the magazine that is paying you.<hr /></blockquote>I can see how posting all of my past articles creates value for my website, because the collection of articles might be considered by some to be a valuable resource. But do you really think posting an article draft early for discussion creates much value? Now, what would be wrong is posting BD's final product by scanning it in from their published magazine, provided permission had not been granted to do such a thing.

This is the last time I will defend myself on these issues, so I wanted to summarize what I think are all of the important points:

- I have been openly posting drafts of my articles for more than three years.

- I have been publicizing and linking to these drafts only on Billiards Digest's CCB online discussion forum. That's right ... Billiards Digest's website!!!

- I have edited the drafts fairly freqently based on feedback from users on the CCB, resulting in a better quality product for Billiards Digest magazine and their readers.

- I have been open about my draft-posting practice with my editor (Mason King), and I have often sent corrections and improvements to him based on feedback I have received.

- The versions of the articles I post on my website are unedited versions of my articles. Also, I sometimes add or change things in my online articles as I get additional feedback or if I find errros in the printed version. Also, my posted (unedited) versions are often longer than the printed versions that appear in the magazine.

- As far as I know, from the written agreement I have with BD and from my past experience in the publishing business, I own the Copyright to my written work. BD has Copyright protection for the printed visual form that appears in their magazine, but I think I still own the Copyright for the content. This is something I will research further, but I would be shocked if the truth is any different than what I describe based on what I have read and what I understand.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>I would love to know why integrity goes out the window when the internet is involved. Everyone thinks they can do whatever they want to do.<hr /></blockquote>I have seen many abuses of Copyright Law on and off the Internet, and it is very disheartening. However, I don't see any ethical, moral, or legal problems with what I have done.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>I know this doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, but, if I were in charge of BD, I would drop you like a hot potato. Fortunately, for you, I'm not in charge.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I'm glad this isn't a popular opinion, and I'm even more glad that you're not in charge.

Thank you for your candid opinions,
Dave

PS: I'm actually on vacation, so I might not be very responsive to replies.

HALHOULE
03-11-2007, 01:26 PM
Lots of knickers in a knot on the forum. Did it solve or resolve anything at all? I doubt it.

Hal

Qtec
03-11-2007, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dave,
How can such an educated person make such a stupid mistake? <font color="blue"> I think Fran already said that. </font color> Here you write an article every month for a magazine, and then go and post it RIGHT THEIR ON THE MAGAZINE'S OWN WEB SITE!!! This is not the way you go about doing things when you are trying to go behind someone's back!
Why wouldn't you post it on the web site of a competitor? Seems to me like you could have been much more underhanded and sneaky with this decision. When you are trying to do something behind their back, this is probably not a wise decision, knowing that they probably have a pretty good idea of what goes on here. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?????????
Steve
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I honestly thing this whole thread has taken a pretty ridiculous turn) <hr /></blockquote>

Personally when I found out that about Dave's upcoming article I was going to buy the mag. Now I don't have to! If the other contributors to BD would be just as kind as Dave and publish their stuff on the web BEFORE the mag comes out, I can probably read half the mag for free!
Do you get it now?
Imagine you are the owner of BD..........?

Fran was right and Dave was wrong. Its that simple. She gave him a hint and he dismissed it without a second thought.
Next you know you have posters coming out the woodwork professing love and positive vibes, but come armed with daggers.

For the record, especially for those with reading comprehension difficulties,
Fran was RIGHT.
Dave was WRONG.
Fran did him a favour. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec.........talk about pack mentality. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Qtec
03-11-2007, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave
<hr /></blockquote>

ie, he wants to know why he should pay you for something that's already published .

Even now when you are COMPETELY wrong you can't admit it.


LOL.
Q

Qtec
03-11-2007, 02:42 PM
Dave,
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. <hr /></blockquote>

Ahhhhhhhh. Passive-agressive with masochistic tendencies. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q.........just pulling it Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
03-11-2007, 03:30 PM
So how is the poll going?

I forgot why I got tired of pool forums, this crap is a fine reminder.

Roy

Stretch
03-11-2007, 04:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Dave,
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. <hr /></blockquote>



Ahhhhhhhh. Passive-agressive with masochistic tendencies. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q.........just pulling it Dave /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/quote

i just started to feel uncomfortable discussing topics with someone that obviously had their own agenda for gaining input from those of us "in the know". Dave's researching us and compiling data like we're some kind of laboratory rats or something. I have no problem passing along idea's and tips. Or discussing anything pool related to someone who has a genuine interest. It's like a yard sale here. If i know buddy down the road wants and needs something i have, then i'll "give it away" knowing it's doing some good. But there's always those "professional buyers" who want something for nothing then turn around and sell it for profit. I'd rather Dr. Daves game got bigger, instead of his wallet, and his head.

Having said that, i realize that he keeps a lot of threads alive and kicking which makes for good traffic. (we could use more ADD type posters) and i'm certainly not blind to the fact that his impressive web site compilation makes for some interesting reading for those looking for info. On the other hand, what chance is there now that anyone like Randyg, or Fran, or Dick, or Hal, or anyone else that might have ground breaking ideas, or novel practice or play techniques, what chance do you think they will give this up just to see it printed in some other form for someone else to take credit for? Not much i'd say. St.

wolfdancer
03-11-2007, 04:29 PM
Fran was right and Dave was wrong. Its that simple. She gave him a hint and he dismissed it without a second thought.
Next you know you have posters coming out the woodwork professing love and positive vibes, but come armed with daggers.

For the record, especially for those with reading comprehension difficulties,
Fran was RIGHT.
Dave was WRONG.
Fran did him a favour.

Qtec.........talk about pack mentality.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I can't quite believe that you wrote that, but you should have added IMHO...because that's all it is.
If there is a "pack" as you label the posters here, that don't agree with your "findings"....maybe it's just a large group of people outraged by all these accusations....
So, while you believe yourself to have the real "take" on this...and that those who disagree with you, can't read, etc
It would be interesting to have a poll and see if the "illiterates" outnumber the "illuminati"......

....one phone call, Fran to Mike, and another, Mike to Dr. Dave....and it's settled....nobody's soiled linen would be hanging out to dry....
That was just a "hint"? I also can see a difference between "I disagree" and ignore....
And I got my fingers crossed....hope no "favors" for me
From a legal standpoint though.....I think you are both wrong (I guess that means I have reading problems?
To begin with, as Dr. Dave explained, he has been posting his drafts here, for additional, input and review, prior to submission to BD for inclusion in their magazine.
Been doing that for 3 years now, somehow slipping that by the eagle-eyed, self-appointed, ad hoc, ethics committee here, ....and the publishing staff...all that time.
His finished article might resemble the draft, in the same way Walter Tavis's short story, resembled the movie "Color of Money"?
From what I read about Journalists and standard publication rights (Tasini Vs the NY Times)....the buyer of the article, is paying for the first printing rights, only!
You might think you got him "nailed to the cross" there....and you also might lose in a court of law
#1....there was no intent to deceive...since the draft appears only on BD's own website....
#2...does the draft resemble more the finished product, or a "tease" to buy the mag, and read the article.
#3...given BD's circulation #s....compared to the relatively few site visitors....many of whom are subscribers....I can't believe sales could be impacted in the least iota. No more so, then George Fels "Untold Stories" or the scrolling banner, affect sales.
Let's be honest here....this is not about any journalistic ethics.....it's personal .....
And if BD wants to pay for something already written here....I might just back bill them for all my posts....

Gayle in MD
03-11-2007, 04:55 PM
LMAO...You're the best! This thread is too funny! Hey, there are so many magazines, and newspapers these days, which display some of their stories, available for free, before publication, on their web sites, as a means to increase their circulation, this entire "Personal" part of this thread is a joke!

You are absolutely right, it's personal, nothing more nothing less.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
03-11-2007, 05:48 PM
So, that's what he's doing...mining the site for info, then selling it all on Pool's Black Market.
I thought his site was free to browse, with all the info contained in his "for sale' DVD and book, on the site. AND the site is always being updated with new info.
Given his lab resources, his expensive cameras, his own readings and research... along with fellow enthuiasts like Colin Colenso...I
can't see where he would be gleaning much dynamic new info, from posters here, who themselves are waiting for others to share their "ground-breaking ideas, novel practice and play methods".
And it seems he also gives credit, where credit is due.
He was quick to point out and credit, Colin's breaking techniques after someone gave him the link.
This reminds me of when Hal was not only offering to share his personal aiming systems....but he'd pay for the phone call......and still, he was accused of trying to make a buck....
I have this vision of Dr. Dave, wearing a long overcoat, sidling up to people in a bar....the coat opens to reveal, pockets in the lining containing DVD's, and books ...
"Hey, Buddy, wanna buy some secret info stuff on pool?...
straight from the CCB"
Just my take on the situation...but maybe many others share yours?????......

dr_dave
03-11-2007, 06:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> So how is the poll going?

I forgot why I got tired of pool forums, this crap is a fine reminder.<hr /></blockquote>
Roy,

I wasn't as curious about the numbers as I was about what different people had to say about the issues. I think there is a lot of good information in this thread (if you can wade through all of the crap). My article is certainly better than it would have been otherwise without all of the good discussion.

Regards,
Dave

PS: You can view the results of the poll yourself by clicking on the link at the bottom of the poll question.

ras314
03-11-2007, 07:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> So, that's what he's doing...mining the site for info, then selling it all on Pool's Black Market.
......<hr /></blockquote>

Good one! Add a bit of jealousy and I think our opinions on this issue would be very similar. Hate to admit that as we are on opposite viewpoints over on NPR.

Possibly good 'ol Dr. Dave hasn't paid his dues to the pool world?

dr_dave
03-11-2007, 07:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Fran was right and Dave was wrong. Its that simple. She gave him a hint and he dismissed it without a second thought.
Next you know you have posters coming out the woodwork professing love and positive vibes, but come armed with daggers.

For the record, especially for those with reading comprehension difficulties,
Fran was RIGHT.
Dave was WRONG.
Fran did him a favour.

Qtec.........talk about pack mentality.<hr /></blockquote>
I can't quite believe that you wrote that, but you should have added IMHO...because that's all it is.
If there is a "pack" as you label the posters here, that don't agree with your "findings"....maybe it's just a large group of people outraged by all these accusations....
So, while you believe yourself to have the real "take" on this...and that those who disagree with you, can't read, etc
It would be interesting to have a poll and see if the "illiterates" outnumber the "illuminati"......

....one phone call, Fran to Mike, and another, Mike to Dr. Dave....and it's settled....nobody's soiled linen would be hanging out to dry....
That was just a "hint"? I also can see a difference between "I disagree" and ignore....
And I got my fingers crossed....hope no "favors" for me
From a legal standpoint though.....I think you are both wrong (I guess that means I have reading problems?
To begin with, as Dr. Dave explained, he has been posting his drafts here, for additional, input and review, prior to submission to BD for inclusion in their magazine.
Been doing that for 3 years now, somehow slipping that by the eagle-eyed, self-appointed, ad hoc, ethics committee here, ....and the publishing staff...all that time.
His finished article might resemble the draft, in the same way Walter Tavis's short story, resembled the movie "Color of Money"?
From what I read about Journalists and standard publication rights (Tasini Vs the NY Times)....the buyer of the article, is paying for the first printing rights, only!
You might think you got him "nailed to the cross" there....and you also might lose in a court of law
#1....there was no intent to deceive...since the draft appears only on BD's own website....
#2...does the draft resemble more the finished product, or a "tease" to buy the mag, and read the article.
#3...given BD's circulation #s....compared to the relatively few site visitors....many of whom are subscribers....I can't believe sales could be impacted in the least iota. No more so, then George Fels "Untold Stories" or the scrolling banner, affect sales.
Let's be honest here....this is not about any journalistic ethics.....it's personal .....
And if BD wants to pay for something already written here....I might just back bill them for all my posts....<hr /></blockquote>Amen! I could not have summarized it better myself. Good job, and thank you and others for supporting me in this fiasco (which I still think is totally ridiculous).

Thanks,
Dave

pooltchr
03-11-2007, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> On the other hand, what chance is there now that anyone like Randyg, or Fran, or Dick, or Hal, or anyone else that might have ground breaking ideas, or novel practice or play techniques, what chance do you think they will give this up just to see it printed in some other form for someone else to take credit for? Not much i'd say. St. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think Randy, Fran, Hal, Scott, Bob, or anyone else including myself posts here just to see something in print. All of us get paid to work directly with those interested in learning how to improve their game. We also come on these forums and answer questions or offer advice when it is appropriate. We do it to try and help. And from time to time, someone might read something here and think "Hey, this guy (or lady) has some interesting thoughts. I might like to learn more from them."
Does what we post here take away from what they learn? Not at all. It might even create more interest in what else might be there.
Does Dave posting a draft of an article take away from subscribers to BD? Not at all. It might even create more interest in what else might be there. I seriously doubt that BD will lose any subscribers because of what is posted here, any more that I might lose a potential student because they already got it from this forum.
Dr Dave is but one very small part of something much bigger. Getting an advanced idea of what to expect probably helps BD sell more magazines, not fewer.
Steve

ras314
03-11-2007, 08:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I think there is a lot of good information in this thread (if you can wade through all of the crap). My article is certainly better than it would have been otherwise without all of the good discussion.
<hr /></blockquote>

I am impressed at your fortitude. I would not have entered this thread except this issue of outside english brings back old memories.

Years ago there was very little information available on the more subtle aspects of pool. I was taught the effects of english on throw as well as position as favor by a fairly successful "old school" hustler. Guess he owed that to me, much money as I lost to him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I made the rounds around the Florida to Louisiania gulf coast for a few years with this guy and learned the hard way I was better off working for a living, but it was occasionally a good time. All that might be considered "paying your dues".

I don't understand the concern of any of the instructors. To learn how to play pool well usually takes both a lot of time and instruction of one kind or another. Easily available "book" (read free) instruction may even get more students for them.

I can understand the attitude by some of an outsider taking free information and selling it somehow, but doing you a favor by bitching to the publisher of BD? That is plain BS.

Roy

Gayle in MD
03-11-2007, 08:24 PM
OMG...I agree with everything you wrote... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Gayle, screaming like Little Richard...Help! somebody please help me!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TennesseeJoe
03-11-2007, 08:29 PM
Dr. Dave,
Why does everyone think they have a dog in this race? This is between you and BD.

eg8r
03-11-2007, 08:32 PM
Oh for goodness sakes, if you have BDs interest at heart and not just another crusade against Dave why don't you just give them a call and let us know how it turns out? If your little crusade gets him fired, what good did that do for the guy reading the article, which in this case has been refined by those who actually gave a crap?

eg8r

eg8r
03-11-2007, 08:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It took how many, 5? 6? posts for you to acknowledge that you don't know if they know or not. I bet it never even occurred to you to ask. And by the way; you don't tell them. You ask them.
<hr /></blockquote> It is quite tough to "ask" when the deed has already been done. How would you phrase a question when the intent is to let the listener know you have been doing something for the past few years. What is it with you and Dave, did he steal your column or something?

eg8r

eg8r
03-11-2007, 08:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional. <hr /></blockquote> This was not Fran the professional, this was frannie the bully. Keep your head up, all Fran has done is screw the little guy that reads the magazine. Now he will be left to reading your articles which might be unclear and actually contain a mistake and you will be forced to waste precious magazine space filling in rebuttals.

Can someone please show us a post where Fran was positive and actually contributed something to this board?

Fran, I really really enjoyed reading your posts from a few years ago, but something has changed lately and it is not for the good.

eg8r

BRussell
03-11-2007, 09:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I can see how posting all of my past articles creates value for my website, because the collection of articles might be considered by some to be a valuable resource. But do you really think posting an article draft early for discussion creates much value? <hr /></blockquote> With all respect, your opinion about whether it's good for their magazine is really not relevant, the only thing that is relevant is whether you have permission. I've published quite a bit, not on pool but in other areas, and you always need permission to post on the internet after publication, and if you have an agreement to publish in the future as you do, you'd need permission to post it on the internet prior to publication. Of course people engage in minor copyright violations all the time, and it sounds like BD doesn't mind you posting the articles anyway, but it really is up to them to decide.

That said, the way Fran Crimi handled this was truly despicable and certainly outdid any potential copyright violation in terms of personal ethics. Her nastiness and goal of humiliating you were absolutely clear. Hell, I've been on the receiving end of it too, after only a handful of posts. None of us are perfect, but... jeez.

Rich R.
03-11-2007, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> #1....there was no intent to deceive...since the draft appears only on BD's own website....<hr /></blockquote>
To be accurate, the link to the draft "appears only on BD's website." The draft itself appears on Dr. Dave's web site. This is where the problem lies.

wolfdancer
03-11-2007, 09:55 PM
Gayle, you think that's bad....I'm agreeing with Ed...and even thinking .....what a nice guy.....lol

Gayle in MD
03-11-2007, 10:00 PM
LMAO!!! AH HA HA HA... hey, I wasn't even going to go there! I figured nobody would believe it, ah ha ha ha...the tears are running down my face! You are beginning to read my mind just like LeonardXXX! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

GMTA /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Voodoo Daddy
03-12-2007, 04:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> This was not Fran the professional, this was frannie the bully. Keep your head up, all Fran has done is screw the little guy that reads the magazine. Now he will be left to reading your articles which might be unclear and actually contain a mistake and you will be forced to waste precious magazine space filling in rebuttals.

Can someone please show us a post where Fran was positive and actually contributed something to this board?

Fran, I really really enjoyed reading your posts from a few years ago, but something has changed lately and it is not for the good.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I sat back and read all 7 pages of this thread...and I came to a conclusion. There is alot of blind faith and there is ALOT hate on this forum. Follow the Dr and drink the kool-ade, be my guest. Spew your hate &lt;or jealousy&gt; towards a pioneer in the industry instead of praise her accomplishments.

The good Dr can write all he wants {and I'm sure the lunacy will certainly continue}...the guy is a long winded rambler that types to see his own text most of the time. I asked who he has taught or who he has beaten and never got a response...silence spoke volumes.

Fran...you been the same person for as long as I can remember, just keep being you. For the record, we have fought ourselves like cats and dogs. Gone as far as not speaking to one another for months at a stretch but the bottom line is...I would go to war with her against you all in a minute, that how much I respect her knowledge and her as a person.

Voodoo~~~tired of the bullshit, just bring it

CarolNYC
03-12-2007, 04:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Fran was right and Dave was wrong. Its that simple. She gave him a hint and he dismissed it without a second thought <hr /></blockquote>

Q,
The phone call and trying to justify it by saying "I told everyone"--as if we should all sit here and applaud the "all and powerful Wizard of Crimiworld"? Cm'on now! Two wrongs dont make it right!
Take care!
Carol

pooltchr
03-12-2007, 04:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> OMG...I agree with everything you wrote... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Gayle, screaming like Little Richard...Help! somebody please help me!

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
I'm highlighting this day on my calendar!!! LOL
Steve

CarolNYC
03-12-2007, 04:58 AM
Jack,
All I can say is "Wow!"

CarolNYC
03-12-2007, 05:01 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle, screaming like Little Richard...Help! somebody please help me <hr /></blockquote>
Gayle,
Everytime you write-I get a visual-your killimg me,ha ha!
Have a great day!
Carol

CarolNYC
03-12-2007, 05:05 AM
Hey Steve,
Thats all good and can be respected,but,hows that phonecall looking to you? Honorable?
Carol~knows Steve knows about honor /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Voodoo Daddy
03-12-2007, 05:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hey Steve,
Thats all good and can be respected,but,hows that phonecall looking to you? Honorable?
Carol~knows Steve knows about honor /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Would I have called? Was it honorable? Its hard for me to answer that because I never wrote for a magazine...but she has, for years too. I think we all do things that seem inappropriate &lt;I know I butchered that spelling&gt; but when you step back and look at things with a unbiased veiw, some things become very appropriate!! Who stood up for you when you needed it Carol? Without shame or with no regrets? Thats why I stand by Fran...with the same honor &amp; integrity in both cases.

CarolNYC
03-12-2007, 06:21 AM
Steve,
you wouldnt have done that! I know you!-and if you would,then I dont know you
Yes, and we ALL stood up for eachother when someone needed it-God knows-without a doubt-
HERE and NOW,it doesnt make this situation right-
And, Im glad to see your okay-I seen RJ in Spring Hill in January and Im sorry !
Carol

SpiderMan
03-12-2007, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Personally when I found out that about Dave's upcoming article I was going to buy the mag. Now I don't have to! <hr /></blockquote>

If no one who reads this thread buys another pool magazine for their entire life, the industry would probably not notice. It would be less than a fly on the ass of a donkey.

Posting something on the CCB is like posting it on the bulletin board at your church. Enough of your own congregation may see it to provide feedback, but the majority of your faith will never even suspect it exists.

This forum is nothing - it's a tiny, tiny drop of the pool-playing ocean. Maybe a fraction of one percent of the pool-playing public. I'm in a large city, with a strong pool scene and thousands of players. With the exception of folks I met here first, no one I've ever approached about CCB had ever heard of it. I have been quite active in the local pool scene for many years, and even subscribed to BD, and I had never heard of CCB until someone specifically pointed me to it.

That brings me back to Dr Dave:

Academics think in terms of peer-reviewed publications.

Everytime I have submitted articles to any type of industry publication (and I have written many, including two cover stories), they have been fanned out to peers for review and suggestions.

Dave's web site is a good example of this. His book material is there for all to critique. It improves the product.

I'd say he considers this forum an interactive peer review, and it can also potentially improve the product. And the audience is so small that any "prior revelation" angle is a red herring.

SpiderMan

wolfdancer
03-12-2007, 09:55 AM
The controversy, IMO, is not about who the better player/teacher, writer is....Fran would win that hands down. I don't know either,but believe them both to be good people....and good people can disagree on things.
In this case one has been accused by the other of an unethical practice...someone else added that it was done so for financial gain...and the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.
The discussion then, again imo is centered on if the charges are true, and should this have been made public, or settled quietly behind the scenes?
Re: Is Dr. Dave coming across as a pool guru?
I'm more into practical pool instruction, than "theoritical"
but find Dr. Dave's topics, pretty interesting.....and sometimes I can even understand them. His columns though are just an adjunct to good instruction from a qualified teacher, dedicated practice, and hitting them "500k" balls.....and I'd still need the 5 out to match up with Fran on the pool table.
Since the matter has been settled....Fran pointed out the problem...Dr. Dave checked with HQ, and they agree with Fran....
the only thing remaining on the table is....did he commit a mortal sin, or a mere venial one?

Gayle in MD
03-12-2007, 12:58 PM
Like I said before, totally blown out of proportion.

Gayle in Md.
Never met a single pool player in all these years who reads this web site!

Qtec
03-12-2007, 07:37 PM
The short version.
I can go into more detail if required.




IMO you are missing the point. This is not about whether Dave can publish his articles or not.
Fran asked a simple question. Dave hummed and haa'd [sp?]. He thought , he assumed , he even went so far as to think the normal rules[ which apply to other contributors to BD] didn't apply to him. According to Dave it was a non-issue.
eg,
Quote Dave,
" Fran, I think you are right. If every author of every instructional column and feature article posted his or her drafts online, the magazine editor might have a concern. However, that is not the case, so it is a non-issue. I think BD sees it as an advantage that I provide so much information online, including the articles.

Regards,
Dave

ie, Dave thinks he is special. Normal rules don't apply to him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran replies,
" Wow. You've been doing this since 2004? That's amazing. You haven't stated that BD knows you're doing this and you haven't stated that you asked for permission at any time, so I gather they don't know.

I suggest you ask for permission.

Fran"

Fran again gives him a friendly word of advice.

Dave ignores Fran and tells her to mind her own buisness!

Dave then states that BD have no problem with his posting practices.

Then comes,


Fran,

Congratulations!!!

Your little phone call worked. Mike and Mason are now looking into the legalities, and I will also be reviewing the agreement (contract) I signed with Mason (if I can find it). Because of your phone call, several people will be wasting much time attempting to gracefully resolve this issue, and I will probably need to change some of my posting practices as a result. I guess I deserve this for standing up to you these last few weeks. You are more powerful in the industry than I thought ... scary powerful.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I still have tremendous respect for you as a player and an instructor; but today, I just lost a lot of respect for you as a decent person or a professional.



So, BD DO have a problem about paying money for articles that are already on the web. Who would have thought?
Dave FKD up. Fran tried to warn him.
You are right in one respct tho, if Dave had TAKEN Fran's advice and contacted the BD in the beginning of this discourse, there would have been no problem.

Dave's arrogance made this thread what it is. All he had to say was. " Thanks for the heads up Fran, you I never considered that. To tell you the truth,I don't know. I will check with BD to make sure its ok.".

So now suddenly Dave is in deep $hit with BD and its all Fran's fault but Dave had just posted this,

" BD has absolutely no problem with me posting my stuff early. In fact, they understand and appreciate the value of open posting. It's all about sharing the best and most accurate information possible.

Thanks,
Dave "

Was Dave talking out his a$$ when he said this???? Surely after this statement it would be perfectly acceptable for anyone to call the BD? Everything is kosher according to Dave, right?

Dave thinks this is all because he ' stood up to Fran' ? I would suggest that this thread has been about Fran standing up to Dave!




Q .....If one cannot entertain the idea that one could possibly be wrong, one is no longer receptive to new ideas.

eg8r
03-12-2007, 08:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I sat back and read all 7 pages of this thread...and I came to a conclusion. There is alot of blind faith and there is ALOT hate on this forum. Follow the Dr and drink the kool-ade, be my guest. Spew your hate &lt;or jealousy&gt; towards a pioneer in the industry instead of praise her accomplishments. <hr /></blockquote> Hey Voodoo, why does anyone need to pick a side. I don't mind praising someones accomplishments but I have not seen them listed here. We can only comment on what Fran posts and frankly she has not been a lot of fun to read lately. Why is it not OK to point out when someone is acting like a bully? If your response was to me then I just don't understand it, here is what I posted... <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Fran, I really really enjoyed reading your posts from a few years ago, but something has changed lately and it is not for the good.
<hr /></blockquote> Do you honestly feel this is an example of spewing hate?

I think Dave was a dunce and I actually winced when I read his first post about the article being available, however it never dawned on me to act unprofessional and hound him for it like Fran has been doing. Without even worrying about the legalities of him posting the article (which is not the final draft) I thought it was a disservice to the players here on the form who were helping "fix" the errors for free while Dave is making a buck. If anything at least let the players with the real knowledge know they are getting screwed out of their "fair share" while he uses their kindness to make some money.

eg8r

TennesseeJoe
03-12-2007, 08:52 PM
These are important issues---PLEASE DON'T LET THIS THREAD DROP!!!!

Qtec
03-12-2007, 09:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Without even worrying about the legalities of him posting the article (which is not the final draft) I thought it was a disservice to the players here on the form who were helping "fix" the errors for free while Dave is making a buck. If anything at least let the players with the real knowledge know they are getting screwed out of their "fair share" while he uses their kindness to make some money.

eg8r

<hr /></blockquote>

Are you suggesting that we all get a share of Dave's upcoming article? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sounds good to me! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually, the next artticle should be headed " Throw etc etc..blah blah.... by the CCB, written and illustrated by Dr Dave!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Billy_Bob
03-13-2007, 06:19 AM
It is my experience that smaller publications do not have a lot of money to throw around.

Actually some are worried about staying in business. Read the following...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_4_37/ai_n13774431

CarolNYC
03-13-2007, 06:33 AM
Good morning Q,
Dave DID call Mason:
[ QUOTE ]
and to make you happy, I just left a long phone message for Mason just to make sure <hr /></blockquote>
Why she continued to haunt him is beyond me-then and there it was "none of her business"
Listen, I dont know Dave-apparently Billiards Digest does and publishes his articles /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Take Care!
Carol

wolfdancer
03-13-2007, 09:46 AM
Thanks for sparing me the further details....
Your version of events might suit you.....but
I still wonder why the question was raised here?

I must have missed the "friendly advice" part,.....and still believe it was, private business between Dr. Dave and his publisher
After the syllogistic posts,claiming he had PACD tendencies, and was also arrogant for denying that....he might not have been in the mood for "friendly advice"?
BUT....it's now a moot point........
Didn't you read the latest posts?...it now seems others wrote the "meat" of the article, and they want to be paid for their research....
This could lead to a class-action lawsuit.....
The farce continues....

eg8r
03-13-2007, 10:36 AM
Sounds fair. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r