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BLACKHEART
03-01-2007, 08:53 AM
I just don't get it. People want to buy gadgets to make their game better, instead of practicing or taking lessons. Swerve, deflection, whatever you call it. It's part of the what a ball does when you hit it with a pointed stick. You learn that by striking the ball low,it will spin backwards. You learn that the spin from one ball, can be transferred to another ball. All of these things happen naturally, when you hit that round thing, with that pointy thing. WHY is deflection any different? It happens & instead of LEARNING to control it, you want a magic stick,to solve this phenominon for you. I swear that soon, someone with a lot a money, will start to advertise a new Q,that will draw the ball for you. I once asked Willie Mosconi about deflection.He said "I see the ball, I know what I have to do, to make the ball & get to the next ball & I do it". AS a Qmaker I get requests for small shafts, long shafts,short ferrules, long ferrules, handles that unscrew to make them longer...GEEZ, just learn to use the bridge!!!!Stop looking for a shrt cut & learn HOW TO PLAY THE GAME...JER /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

randyg
03-01-2007, 09:34 AM
Greatest post ever......SPF=randyg

Fran Crimi
03-01-2007, 10:21 AM
Yup. Good point, JER. Personal preferences are one thing, but some people take it too far. Could that be part of the "I'm special" generation? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

killerstroke
03-01-2007, 10:42 AM
Thank you, What wisdom you hold.

trob
03-01-2007, 11:00 AM
I thought that the whole predator shaft thing was bs to when the first came out. They've now been around long enough..and I've now heard from enough players swearing by them that I'm picking one up at the expo in march. There were probobly people who said the same thing about people useing the leather tip when it was discovered...but it sure made the game easier. You can't really control deflection because you just don't know how much of it will ocure. It seems one less thing to deal with when running out is all the better.

dave
03-01-2007, 11:13 AM
BTW. How's my deflection free, laminated shaft, laser sighted, spring loaded jump masse break cue coming along? Oh... and what tip should I use? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan
03-01-2007, 11:15 AM
People with discretionary income like to spend it on their hobbies. Look at golf, a game with mechanics very similar to pool. You can spend a fortune on STUFF that arguably makes very tiny differences in your results. But the sellers of that stuff make a bundle.

That's one reason golf pros make a little more than pool pros.

I'll bet pool players would really line up to use a machine that offered "computerized stroke analysis" like you can get for your golf swing.

Hey, maybe I need to get busy and invent one. Let's see ... accelerometers, 3-D video tracking, ..... this posting marks my "date of conception" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
03-01-2007, 11:27 AM
I love Predator shafts. I consider that a personal preference choice. Other stuff can go too far, though.

Fran

socrates
03-01-2007, 11:58 AM
Interesting thread.

Analogies to golf are similar - many people try to buy a game through what they put in their bag vs. lessons or practice and are usually never seen on the practice range or putting green and they continue to merilly 3 putt there way around the course.

If you hit a 7 iron 145 yards and the hole is 125 away without a breeze to be seen - after you fly the green enough times you might consider dropping down a club.

Before enlightenment trees are trees and rocks are rocks. After enlightenment trees are trees and rocks are rocks. It is that time in the middle that gives us fits. Eventually deflection is a variable that we instintively process.

For what that was worth it is good to see so many familiar names still posting on the CCB.

BRussell
03-01-2007, 12:17 PM
I played with a guy yesterday who said he had electronics in his shaft. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Piezo or something. I asked him if it picked up FM radio. He just kind of looked at me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran Crimi
03-01-2007, 12:17 PM
Steve!

Sorry for being off-topic. Just wanted to say I have father and son students (son is 11) who I gave each a copy of your book to. We work through the shots together and they are enjoying the challenge tremendously of working their way to black belt, not to mention how helpful it's been to their overall improvement.

It's a great combination of fun and learning. It doesn't get much better than that!

Fran

Bob_Jewett
03-01-2007, 12:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I just don't get it. People want to buy gadgets to make their game better, instead of practicing or taking lessons. Swerve, deflection, whatever you call it. It's part of the what a ball does when you hit it with a pointed stick. You learn that by striking the ball low,it will spin backwards. ... <hr /></blockquote>
The amount of squirt a stick has is very important in play. It is a reasonable parameter for a player to specify when asking for a shaft. I think it's far more important to those who use a lot of side than a millimeter or two in shaft diameter.

If someone comes to you and asks for a low-squirt shaft, what do you tell them?

socrates
03-01-2007, 12:56 PM
Fran, thanks for passing that along.
I took 18 months or so off from the game and am working through the book again myself.

Chopstick
03-01-2007, 01:05 PM
LOL. Preach on brother BlackHeart. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Brian in VA
03-01-2007, 01:43 PM
That may just be the best post I've ever read on any forum, anywhere.

Reminds of a boss I had many years ago who, when asked why something had to be done, he replied, "Because it's your stinking job!"

Right on JER!

Brian in VA

Brian in VA
03-01-2007, 01:43 PM
What a pleasant surprise! Welcome back Steve!

Brian in VA

cushioncrawler
03-01-2007, 02:21 PM
At first i thort i agreed, there is too much gadgetry. Oldendayz players (12' tables) didnt even have basic cue extensions. I uze a section of vacuum cleaner (aluminium) tube (cost me nothing) -- but i wouldnt mind having an extending-butt in my cue.

The oldendayz players uzed a half-butt (a long cue), or a 3/4 butt, or a full-butt, plus the appropriate bridge. Nowadayz, players mostly uze an add-on extension, which itself extends allso. A big improovment over uzing big klunky full-butts. A player normally needed to take a cut-lunch to walk to the other end of the hall to get the full-butt, and then to return it, and in the meantime the player hadta go for a long walk to chalk the tip.

I reckon that every cue iz better than every other cue, for some sort of shot. I agree with Bob and others that cue pivot point etc is important. But, blackheart, there is an opening for a cuesmith to get in on the groundfloor for the next bigdeal -- Bent Cues. Even more important than pivotpoint, most players would play better if they uzed a bent cue. This little sucker will need an exponential jump in the size of a cuesmith's catalog. Blogs will come alive. Fizzyks nerds will write new books. Players will have a choice of the "early bend", the "late bend", the "super bend" etc. The Blackheart "Boomerang" could become the No1 best seller in 2008. Dont get left behind. madMac.

wolfdancer
03-01-2007, 02:30 PM
It's mid-summer down there, isn't it? I think you need to go inside, at least find some shade....the heat and sun beating down...is getting to you.
might be time to quaff down a Matilda Bay lager....or two

cushioncrawler
03-01-2007, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> It's mid-summer down there, isn't it? I think you need to go inside, at least find some shade....the heat and sun beating down...is getting to you.
might be time to quaff down a Matilda Bay lager....or two <hr /></blockquote> Actually we are now having a nice cool and wet summer, otherwize the march-flys here would be even worse (theze big suckers really love blood). I am just killing a few minutes on the forum before i go up the hill to "the new house" to start placing the first big steel girders. We had a BBQ up there last night, and my missuz (and stepdaughter) took a photo of me naked high up on the brickwork, where the billiard room will be. I need a new avatar. madMac.

trob
03-01-2007, 03:11 PM
The more I think about it the more I think golf equipment isn't a good comparison. The fact is golf has equipment has taken a big jump in technology. If your playing with a driver 5 years old I will guarantee that the average player will get more out of the current batch. more distance and forgiveness. I really don't feel that If I go buy a new cue that I'm going to get any better then playing with my joss that is at least 16 or 17 years old. The good thing about predator shafts is honestly I think you can buy any kind of cue that catches your eye and as long as your useing a predator shaft there all going to hit about the same.

I had a golf pro tell me one time if you haven't upgraded your irons or woods in more then 5 years..do it and you will see an improvement. If youve been useing the same putter for 40 years and are happy with it...don't change. Nothing has happened in the tech. of putters to make you any better. Either you have the touch or you don't have touch. I think cue's are more comparable to putter then anything else in a golf bag. If it feels good in your hands and you know what it's going to give you every time you hit the ball. don't change.

cushioncrawler
03-01-2007, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trob:</font><hr> The more I think about it the more I think golf equipment isn't a good comparison. The fact is golf has equipment has taken a big jump in technology. If your playing with a driver 5 years old I will guarantee that the average player will get more out of the current batch. more distance and forgiveness. I really don't feel that If I go buy a new cue that I'm going to get any better then playing with my joss that is at least 16 or 17 years old. The good thing about predator shafts is honestly I think you can buy any kind of cue that catches your eye and as long as your useing a predator shaft there all going to hit about the same.

I had a golf pro tell me one time if you haven't upgraded your irons or woods in more then 5 years..do it and you will see an improvement. If youve been useing the same putter for 40 years and are happy with it...don't change. Nothing has happened in the tech. of putters to make you any better. Either you have the touch or you don't have touch. I think cue's are more comparable to putter then anything else in a golf bag. If it feels good in your hands and you know what it's going to give you every time you hit the ball. don't change. <hr /></blockquote>Trob -- I could say plenty about golf clubs. I made my own for years, out of aluminium plate, and out of redgum etc -- but i didnt make my own shafts.

And, i could say heaps about putters. I made them out of boulders, out of horseshoes, thick aluminium plate etc, and combinations of these allso. And i sort of invented (allmost) a new stance and hold (grip). Most of the putters that i made wouldnt fall over (on flat greens) if/when u let go. Looked funny, a putter standing on its own in the middle of a 1 acre praktis putting green, while i took a leak. Drew lots of attention. madMac.

BLACKHEART
03-01-2007, 03:35 PM
The amount of squirt a stick has is very important in play. It is a reasonable parameter for a player to specify when asking for a shaft. I think it's far more important to those who use a lot of side than a millimeter or two in shaft diameter.

If someone comes to you and asks for a low-squirt shaft, what do you tell them? <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Bob, On a 9' table, if you hit a ball with 1 tip of left side spin, towards a spot on the opposite rail, how much off of that spot, is acceptable deflection(obviously zero is perfect)?...JER

wolfdancer
03-01-2007, 04:02 PM
I've had the second generation of Ping putters( the series after they removed the annoying Ping) in the bag, for over 20 years. bought it out of the used club barrel for $10....and a couple of wraps later, it still feels ok.
But two years ago, I bought the "2-ball" putter, and that seemed to raise my "make" avg. One of the pros, Mark O'Meara played a practice round with an old Persimmon driver recently...and remarked how much farther the new metal clubs hit, how much easier they are to hit.

compared to my old shafts, the 314 "hits" better.

Bob_Jewett
03-01-2007, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> ...

Hi Bob, On a 9' table, if you hit a ball with 1 tip of left side spin, towards a spot on the opposite rail, how much off of that spot, is acceptable deflection(obviously zero is perfect)?...JER <hr /></blockquote>
That's not the way I'd approach it. If I get a new shaft, it has to play like my current shaft. I'm not willing to relearn all my spin shots. I can play with Predator shafts (and similar) because that's the way my Balabushka shaft (that I had in the low-squirt configuration since about 1980) played.

For people who do most of their squirt compensation with aim-and-pivot (or backhand english, or tuck-and-roll, or aim-and-swoop) having considerably more squirt in the shaft is essential for their mental well-being, but it would drive me crazy. If I point the stick north with left english, I can't stand it if the cue ball goes north east. It has to go north-by-east. (For those of you who were deprived of proper training by the BSA, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_the_compass )

JohnnyP
03-02-2007, 06:16 AM
Spiderman:

The camera movement will make you dizzy, so hold onto your desk:
StrokeMaster (http://www.jandssafeguard.com/StrokeMasterDemo.MPG)

SpiderMan
03-02-2007, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JohnnyP:</font><hr> Spiderman:

The camera movement will make you dizzy, so hold onto your desk:
StrokeMaster (http://www.jandssafeguard.com/StrokeMasterDemo.MPG) <hr /></blockquote>

Jesus! That's got to be the WORST promo video I've ever seen. It's like the guy was stroking the cue with one hand and holding the camera in the other. Can't even tell for sure what the product is supposed to do /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Brian in VA
03-02-2007, 07:28 AM
Hi Johnny!

Long time no talk!

Have you come to market with that yet?

Brian in VA

JohnnyP
03-02-2007, 07:31 AM
As Charlie Chan used to say (after questioning an uncooperative suspect), "Thank you...so much".

Yes, that was me, stroking the cue with one hand, etc.

Just a guy with too much time on his hands one winter. More here:

StrokeAlyzer (http://www.jandssafeguard.com/PoolGizmo/Stroke-Alyzer.html)

JohnnyP
03-02-2007, 07:36 AM
Brian:

I put it off until I can make it wireless. Plus, the guy quit making the Gameboy interface. Kind of a pain to bring your laptop to the poolhall.

dhammis
03-02-2007, 07:38 AM
I'm quite amazed by this post. To see that it comes from a cuemaker amazes me even more. There is a reason why people request certain types of shafts, ferrules, etc on their cues. It's because it does make a difference. When you talk about hitting a round thing with a pointy thing changing those dynamics affects how the balls roll. A smaller diameter tip, different woods, different shaft construction (spliced vs solid for example), different weights of the cue and the balls affect how everything works. A standard 2 1/4 Aramith Red Dot ball will roll differently than an oversized coin-op ball. English, follow and draw all work differently once you change one of the variables. The golf analogy is somewhat of a good one really. A driver, with a larger head and more mass, hits the ball farther than an iron. The angle of the head, the mass, the shaft length, etc all make a difference. By your reasoning, all golfers should putt with their driver! The same can be said about changing tips. If players really should "learn how to use their equipment" then it wouldn't matter what tip you put on it. But it does matter, because they cause things to work differently. If it didn't matter nobody would spend $30 on a Moori when a $.50 LePro did the job the exact same. Predator shafts are different than Meucci shafts. Everything else being equal the balls will react differently on the same shot with different cues. There is a lot to be said for a good stroke, work ethic when it comes to practice, lessons and the like, but you can't discount the fact that changes in equipment make a difference. What's more, the "perceived" difference provided by different tools may make even more of a difference than the physical change. Who's game doesn't get better when they buy a new cue? It's a placebo effect but the end result is the same.

Personally, I'd never buy a cue from someone with the attitude that you have.

DickLeonard
03-02-2007, 09:23 AM
Blackheart I think I first heard of deflection when I signed on to Billiard Digest.com or was it Rec.Sport.com? I must have beeen a mushroom.####

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dhammis:</font><hr> I'm quite amazed by this post. To see that it comes from a cuemaker amazes me even more. There is a reason why people request certain types of shafts, ferrules, etc on their cues. It's because it does make a difference. When you talk about hitting a round thing with a pointy thing changing those dynamics affects how the balls roll. A smaller diameter tip, different woods, different shaft construction (spliced vs solid for example), different weights of the cue and the balls affect how everything works. A standard 2 1/4 Aramith Red Dot ball will roll differently than an oversized coin-op ball. English, follow and draw all work differently once you change one of the variables. The golf analogy is somewhat of a good one really. A driver, with a larger head and more mass, hits the ball farther than an iron. The angle of the head, the mass, the shaft length, etc all make a difference. By your reasoning, all golfers should putt with their driver! The same can be said about changing tips. If players really should "learn how to use their equipment" then it wouldn't matter what tip you put on it. But it does matter, because they cause things to work differently. If it didn't matter nobody would spend $30 on a Moori when a $.50 LePro did the job the exact same. Predator shafts are different than Meucci shafts. Everything else being equal the balls will react differently on the same shot with different cues. There is a lot to be said for a good stroke, work ethic when it comes to practice, lessons and the like, but you can't discount the fact that changes in equipment make a difference. What's more, the "perceived" difference provided by different tools may make even more of a difference than the physical change. Who's game doesn't get better when they buy a new cue? It's a placebo effect but the end result is the same.

Personally, I'd never buy a cue from someone with the attitude that you have. <hr /></blockquote>
Tap, Tap, Tap !!!

Dave

DickLeonard
03-02-2007, 09:30 AM
Dhammis spend your time refining your stroke instead of searching for the Magic Wand is the point that Blackheart is making. Some players can play with a broom stick with no tip Moori or not.####

DickLeonard
03-02-2007, 09:52 AM
Dr.Dave What does the Physics of Pool have to do with making a Pool Cue. It is two different disiplines each barreling down a different track.
Did Stradivarius play the Violin? Never heard that he could but he was a Master Maker. Why should a cuemaker be held to the physics of pool. Just make a fine cue.####

dhammis
03-02-2007, 10:36 AM
There is no "Magic Wand" stick to solve all of your shooting problems, but better equipment will enable you to play better, regardless of your skill level. It's just one piece of the puzzle though. If you take good mechanics, good practice habits and good equipment, you will have a good player. If any of those things aren't good, the results will drop. Put Johnny Archer on a coin op table with chipped balls, ripped felt and a warped house stick with no tip and he's not going to play as well as he would with his Scorpion, Simonis and a set of Aramith balls. Take Joe Pool Player and put a $1500 Predator in his hands that won't make him a superstar unless he dedicates himself to improving his stroke and practices. Take someone with average skill, like a regular league player, and give them a decent cue and they will pick up a ball or two per game. I'd bet just about anything on it, because the other parts are in place. They practice. They understand that good mechanics are important. They will see a difference.

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Dr.Dave What does the Physics of Pool have to do with making a Pool Cue. It is two different disiplines each barreling down a different track.
Did Stradivarius play the Violin? Never heard that he could but he was a Master Maker. Why should a cuemaker be held to the physics of pool. Just make a fine cue.<hr /></blockquote>If you just care how pretty a cue looks, then physics and engineering have no place in the discussion. For many people, cue making is strictly an art form ... and I appreciate that side of the industry.

Now, if you want a cue to have good performance (e.g., low squirt, good feel, stability, and long life), then engineering and physics are critical to the discussion. I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form. But for some cue manufacturing companies (e.g., Predator), engineering is certainly a part of their process: material selection, manufacturing techniques, ferule design, shaft-end design, modeling and analysis, patents, extensive testing ... all of the stuff engineers do.

Having said all of that, I agree that it is still nice if a well-engineered cue also looks pretty.

Regards,
Dave

SpiderMan
03-02-2007, 11:32 AM
Now THAT is extremely cool. I want one.

When I watched your video, with no explanation, I thought that somehow the tonal feedback was being generated by friction between the shaft and that tubular shroud around it.

SpiderMan

hondo
03-02-2007, 12:37 PM
Great post. If those old timers had only realized
how much shaft deflection affected their shot they wouldn't
have made a ball. LOL!

Deeman3
03-02-2007, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dhammis:</font><hr> There is no "Magic Wand" stick to solve all of your shooting problems, but better equipment will enable you to play better, regardless of your skill level. It's just one piece of the puzzle though. If you take good mechanics, good practice habits and good equipment, you will have a good player. If any of those things aren't good, the results will drop. Put Johnny Archer on a coin op table with chipped balls, ripped felt and a warped house stick with no tip and he's not going to play as well as he would with his Scorpion, Simonis and a set of Aramith balls. Take Joe Pool Player and put a $1500 Predator in his hands that won't make him a superstar unless he dedicates himself to improving his stroke and practices. Take someone with average skill, like a regular league player, and give them a decent cue and they will pick up a ball or two per game. I'd bet just about anything on it, because the other parts are in place. They practice. They understand that good mechanics are important. They will see a difference. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">dhammis:

Respectfully, You may play at a much higher level than some of us. However, IMNOHO, cue's contrubutions to the level of a player's performance have been vastly overrated. Most players like a cue because of the "way it hits". It does provide some confidence and, by my very uneducated guess, a marginal increase in performance of perhaps 2 or 3%. As long as a cue is straight, solid and has a well groomed tip, I think even that percentage may be an overestimate. Now, mentally, a cue may increase a marginal players game 15 or 20%. That has little to do with the cue or it's playing characterictics, that's a simple lack of discipline by the player. Sort of like, "I play better after a few beers." No, you just settle your nerves and, perhaps, increase your confidence. I like my Shoen. I own 2 dozen cues, one an original Balabusha. I can play with any cue I want. I play for money most nights of the week and several tournaments. I use my regular cue in 95% of the games I play. On occasion for various reasons, I must shoot with A) a borrowed cue or B) a house cue. If the tip can be shaped and the stick is straight, the only thing I miss is a pro taper but do not ever remember, in all these years, of missing a shot because the cue I selected "let me down". I prefer a few minutes to adjust to the weight and feel of a cue but, other than that, I shoot with the cue I own because A) It was free and B) It is an attractive cue.

All these cue makers make great cues and are not compensated, in most cases, properly for the work and craftmanship they put into them. People will continue to buy them for many reasons, ego, comfort, confidence or they simply like them. The simple fact that "you play better with your new cue" should indicate that this is mental (really mental weakness) or a crutch for a weaker game. Three months or three years later, that same player is looking to buy the next best thing. I have some new age shafts. I find they do not deflect as much. I also find that does not raise the level of my game. I make a mental adjustment for each cue/shaft combination but do not believe I have ever won a nickle because of one of these shafts. Again, your game may be at a level much higher than mine and you may have the ability to detect differences that I cannot.

That being said, I think more of a cuemaker who is selling quality cues than someone who sells technology, gimmicks and a sales pitch of my stick will do so and so. Tell me you'll build me a solid and well balanced cue that would have satisfied say, Ralph Greenleaf or Harold Worst and I'll leave all the deflection and other new age stuff to the science guys. Not to say, technology has not helped, but I'll take Efren with a house cue against the 10th best player in the world any day.

It just ain't the stick....I respect JER for saying that</font color>

DeeMan

wolfdancer
03-02-2007, 12:43 PM
Dr. Dave, going back to the 70's (I believe)Bob Meucci came up with the idea of a long soft (thermoplastic) ferrule. For the avg. amateur player (like me)..we got more "action" out of that cue, esp more draw. The pros didn't like it, I understand, because they felt they weren't getting consistant enough distance control.
With 2 identical predator shafts I get twice the action from the one with an Everest tip, than the one with the LePro. If
i put a Sumo tip on them, I could drive nails, but couldn't play pool (I've tried them)
My point is you can tweak a cue to match your stroke.
I bought a cue from Jer....he makes a nice cue at a fair price. I ended up buying the Predater later on, but the guy I sold the Blackheart cue to, is still using it.
Meucci wasn't trying to eliminate cue deflection at the time...but rather though the cue should vibrate like a tuning fork on an off center-hit. I understand years later, computer analysis prove him to be right?
Hope I have this "info" correct.....and not just another urban legend....

wolfdancer
03-02-2007, 12:51 PM
"It just ain't the stick'

Is that anything like "it ain't just the meat, it's the motion"?
I'd guess I play about 40% better with my Predator, then with a house cue....I don't get the same english/draw...and even the cut shots seem different.....I've also noticed how much more easier the game becomes after the second gin &amp; tonic.....

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dhammis:</font><hr> There is no "Magic Wand" stick to solve all of your shooting problems, but better equipment will enable you to play better, regardless of your skill level. It's just one piece of the puzzle though. If you take good mechanics, good practice habits and good equipment, you will have a good player. If any of those things aren't good, the results will drop. Put Johnny Archer on a coin op table with chipped balls, ripped felt and a warped house stick with no tip and he's not going to play as well as he would with his Scorpion, Simonis and a set of Aramith balls. Take Joe Pool Player and put a $1500 Predator in his hands that won't make him a superstar unless he dedicates himself to improving his stroke and practices. Take someone with average skill, like a regular league player, and give them a decent cue and they will pick up a ball or two per game. I'd bet just about anything on it, because the other parts are in place. They practice. They understand that good mechanics are important. They will see a difference. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">dhammis:

Respectfully, You may play at a much higher level than some of us. However, IMNOHO, cue's contrubutions to the level of a player's performance have been vastly overrated. Most players like a cue because of the "way it hits". It does provide some confidence and, by my very uneducated guess, a marginal increase in performance of perhaps 2 or 3%. As long as a cue is straight, solid and has a well groomed tip, I think even that percentage may be an overestimate. Now, mentally, a cue may increase a marginal players game 15 or 20%. That has little to do with the cue or it's playing characterictics, that's a simple lack of discipline by the player. Sort of like, "I play better after a few beers." No, you just settle your nerves and, perhaps, increase your confidence. I like my Shoen. I own 2 dozen cues, one an original Balabusha. I can play with any cue I want. I play for money most nights of the week and several tournaments. I use my regular cue in 95% of the games I play. On occasion for various reasons, I must shoot with A) a borrowed cue or B) a house cue. If the tip can be shaped and the stick is straight, the only thing I miss is a pro taper but do not ever remember, in all these years, of missing a shot because the cue I selected "let me down". I prefer a few minutes to adjust to the weight and feel of a cue but, other than that, I shoot with the cue I own because A) It was free and B) It is an attractive cue.

All these cue makers make great cues and are not compensated, in most cases, properly for the work and craftmanship they put into them. People will continue to buy them for many reasons, ego, comfort, confidence or they simply like them. The simple fact that "you play better with your new cue" should indicate that this is mental (really mental weakness) or a crutch for a weaker game. Three months or three years later, that same player is looking to buy the next best thing. I have some new age shafts. I find they do not deflect as much. I also find that does not raise the level of my game. I make a mental adjustment for each cue/shaft combination but do not believe I have ever won a nickle because of one of these shafts. Again, your game may be at a level much higher than mine and you may have the ability to detect differences that I cannot.

That being said, I think more of a cuemaker who is selling quality cues than someone who sells technology, gimmicks and a sales pitch of my stick will do so and so. Tell me you'll build me a solid and well balanced cue that would have satisfied say, Ralph Greenleaf or Harold Worst and I'll leave all the deflection and other new age stuff to the science guys. Not to say, technology has not helped, but I'll take Efren with a house cue against the 10th best player in the world any day.

It just ain't the stick....I respect JER for saying that</font color><hr /></blockquote>Deeman,

Awesome post! Although, I think you minimizied the importance of squirt just a little. If you pick up a house cue, which can have a shocking amount of squirt, and you are used to playing with a low-squirt cue (e.g., Predator or OB-1), and you need to use English on a shot, would you really be comfortable with the house cue if you didn't spend a fair amount of time practicing with the house cue first?

Again, great post!

Regards,
Dave

JohnnyP
03-02-2007, 01:14 PM
The lateral accelerometer doesn't know the difference between rotation and translation. Probably need something called six degrees of freedom or a gyroscope to sort that out. It does show the result of an off axis hit, though.

Really had me confused, though, when I let the top player in the place try it. I didn't realize he twists the cue on the forward stoke, causing the left part of the swerve trace to go off the scale, but the right half was a flat line. Perfect centerball hit.

I was talking to myself outloud, trying to figure it out, when Wayne (old school) Norcross went by. He says, hey, as long it looks good on the computer...

The forward stroke display is useful, though Bob says it's broken, since it doesn't show the 100g decel at impact. Might be the sloppy mount, combined with a 500Hz or less lowpass filter. Good enough to show that I hit the ball late, though. Probably due to choking up on the cue. It was pointed out to me last week that I'm already well into my follow through when I address the cue ball.

The tubular shroud is the Strokemaster, designed to be used on its own, to groove your stroke.

My dream was to set it up on a pool table, and let C players like me execute table length draw strokes. Very hard to shoot with, though. I kept trying to lift it off the table on the follow through. Must remember to drop elbow.

When I was designing it, I'd go around the house, chanting stroke..master, stroke..master.

BLACKHEART
03-02-2007, 02:19 PM
The 1st 2 sentances of my post grasps the essence of my thoughts(please reread it). One of my pool teams played another team recently, where none of the players are not very knowledgeable, about the game. They have a good time, but loose most of their matches, never practice, just play. God bless em, havin' fun is important. One day, I asked their best player, if I could show him, how he can predict the diection of the cue ball, after hits the object ball? His answer blew me away. "I'd rather just pick it up on my own". He has NO CLUE. He plays with a low end PLAYER cue. He has a PREDITOR shaft, on that cue.I asked, why he spent several times, what his cue was worth, on a shaft. His answer was "All of the good players got em &amp; it's suposed to jump my game up, a couple of notches". Need I say more? I think that ANY improvement in equipment, has a posability of help your game, BUT ONLY for players who understand what the equipment does. This is a MAGIC WAND syndrome, if I've ever seen one. As For some one to say, that they would not buy a cue from me, because I favor practice &amp; lessons over blindly buying equipment, to highten your game is something I don't understand...JER

wolfdancer
03-02-2007, 02:38 PM
After much introspection and reflection, about deflection,it's my contention that a popular convention,is that the invention of the 314 shaft provided aim correction thus resulting in missed ball protection.

cushioncrawler
03-02-2007, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> The 1st 2 sentances of my post grasps the essence of my thoughts(please reread it). One of my pool teams played another team recently, where none of the players are not very knowledgeable, about the game. They have a good time, but loose most of their matches, never practice, just play. God bless em, havin' fun is important. One day, I asked their best player, if I could show him, how he can predict the diection of the cue ball, after hits the object ball? His answer blew me away. "I'd rather just pick it up on my own". He has NO CLUE. He plays with a low end PLAYER cue. He has a PREDITOR shaft, on that cue.I asked, why he spent several times, what his cue was worth, on a shaft. His answer was "All of the good players got em &amp; it's suposed to jump my game up, a couple of notches". Need I say more? I think that ANY improvement in equipment, has a posability of help your game, BUT ONLY for players who understand what the equipment does. This is a MAGIC WAND syndrome, if I've ever seen one. As For some one to say, that they would not buy a cue from me, because I favor practice &amp; lessons over blindly buying equipment, to highten your game is something I don't understand...JER <hr /></blockquote> Blacky -- If u had had some bent shafts, i bet that he would have bort one off ya. Now, with a bent shaft, it can (will) help everyone, and, they dont havta know anything about the "theory". And, in fact, (for usage of a bent shaft) there iz "nothing to learn", and "nothing to teach". U can have the bend "to the left", and/or u can have the bend "to the ryht". "Bend up" helps follow. "Bend down" helps draw. The BlackHeart "Magic Wand" could be the No1 best seller in 2008. madMac.

cushioncrawler
03-02-2007, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Dr.Dave What does the Physics of Pool have to do with making a Pool Cue. It is two different disiplines each barreling down a different track.
Did Stradivarius play the Violin? Never heard that he could but he was a Master Maker. Why should a cuemaker be held to the physics of pool. Just make a fine cue.####<hr /></blockquote>Dick -- I saw a show last week. A guy (blindfolded), behind a curtain, plays a Stradi violin, and 3 other varyus violins, in front of the curtain are 4 experts. They are asked to rate each of the violins uzing varyus subjective descriptorz. Three of the 4 gave a resounding No1 vote to one particular violin, it woz a modern new factory made mass production model. Dont know what this might meen re modern CueSmiths. madMac.

MrLucky
03-02-2007, 03:26 PM
<font color="green">I originally and still to a point agree with you , folks tend to place too much on deflection. I have a McDermott I-2 shaft and plan on purchasing one for at least one of my playing Cues ! Do I play better with it ? Absolutely ! Is it the sole object that will make anyones game better ? Absolutely Not! IMO! once you have bridge, stroke and aiming skills then you develope your positioning skills and consistency when all of these things are in place a </font color> Good Low Deflection Shaft <font color="red"> can help some not all shooters! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Deeman3
03-02-2007, 04:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> </font color><hr /></blockquote>Deeman,

Awesome post! Although, I think you minimizied the importance of squirt just a little. If you pick up a house cue, which can have a shocking amount of squirt, <font color="blue"> Yes, That's just my point. If I don't have the capability to pick up a house cue and master it in a very short period of time, I am stuck big time. Maybe, it really is a difference in how our brains work but part of the essence to being an outstanding player (not claiming to be one) is that you CAN make those adjustments and if you can't you will find a stick, shaft or tip that will help you make those adjustments, sometimes. </font color> and you are used to playing with a low-squirt cue (e.g., Predator or OB-1), and you need to use English on a shot, would you really be comfortable with the house cue if you didn't spend a fair amount of time practicing with the house cue first? <font color="blue"> A fair amount of time is a relative thing. I should learn everytime I hit a ball. If it takes 100 balls for me to learn the characteristics of a stick to beat my opponent, maybe, just maybe I'm playing the wrong sport/game for me.</font color>

Again, great post!

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Thanks Dave. I think we just see the game/table/execution process a little differently. You'll get my first copy of my book on how I think this game works. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

slim
03-02-2007, 04:22 PM
Blackheart, you sound like the perfect guy to make make me a sardo 6-ball rack, I just can't seem to get em tight with a full rack its too big. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
03-02-2007, 04:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Deeman,

Awesome post! Although, I think you minimizied the importance of squirt just a little. If you pick up a house cue, which can have a shocking amount of squirt, <font color="blue"> Yes, That's just my point. If I don't have the capability to pick up a house cue and master it in a very short period of time, I am stuck big time. Maybe, it really is a difference in how our brains work but part of the essence to being an outstanding player (not claiming to be one) is that you CAN make those adjustments and if you can't you will find a stick, shaft or tip that will help you make those adjustments, sometimes. </font color> and you are used to playing with a low-squirt cue (e.g., Predator or OB-1), and you need to use English on a shot, would you really be comfortable with the house cue if you didn't spend a fair amount of time practicing with the house cue first? <font color="blue"> A fair amount of time is a relative thing. I should learn everytime I hit a ball. If it takes 100 balls for me to learn the characteristics of a stick to beat my opponent, maybe, just maybe I'm playing the wrong sport/game for me.</font color>

Again, great post!

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Thanks Dave. I think we just see the game/table/execution process a little differently. You'll get my first copy of my book on how I think this game works.</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>D-man,

I don't think we see things that differently at all. We might have small disagreements at times (e.g., with how to describe something, or with assumptions about how long it would take somebody to adjust to a radically different cue); but I think, in general, we agree on just about everything (pool related, that is ... you still seem to like chrome poles and deviant sexual behaviors more than I do /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Regards,
Dave

PS: Can't wait to see your first book. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

wolfdancer
03-02-2007, 04:38 PM
I think I read where it was the wood itself that gave the strad it's sounds.....they had used a computer to copy it's evey dimensions inside and out...but couldn't duplicate the sound...another urban myth ( like Noble economy prizes)?

cushioncrawler
03-02-2007, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think I read where it was the wood itself that gave the strad it's sounds.....they had used a computer to copy it's evey dimensions inside and out...but couldn't duplicate the sound...another urban myth ( like Noble economy prizes)? <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, lots of this sort of "expert" and "arty" stuff is all bullkrap. Wood gets worse with (very old) age (might burn better but). I have two 1898 cues, but they are too whippy (and i like whippy cues uzually), wouldnt have been so whippy when new. Different to tips, they get too hardnstiff with age -- i have a ton of oldendayz leather tips, but now no good.

Nowadays we have the same krap about Balabushkas. How can anything with "bush" in it be any good (actually, Dub might have made a great CueSmith, who knows). And all of that krap stuff about arty nice looking cue butts. madMac.

pooltchr
03-02-2007, 05:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dhammis:</font><hr> Take someone with average skill, like a regular league player, and give them a decent cue and they will pick up a ball or two per game. I'd bet just about anything on it, because the other parts are in place. <hr /></blockquote>
Fantastic!!! I'd love to take that bet. I don't believe there is a cue stick made that is going to make any league player jump up one or two balls per game. In fact, I doubt if most league players could tell the difference between a Players and a Schon if they couldn't see the cue...and a lot wouldn't know the difference even if they could. Don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing league players...I am one myself. But given the 30 league players in our room on any given night, I don't see a different cue helping any of them improve that much. And I put myself at the top of that list. The cue doesn't make the shot...the shooter does.
Steve

Scott Lee
03-03-2007, 12:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> The cue doesn't make the shot...the shooter does.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

tap,tap,tap Steve!

JER...Great post! Deflection is the most overrated, overblown, overused, and misunderstood term in pool, in the last 25 yrs. It is just as you described it...and if dhammis wouldn't buy a cue from you, he'd be missing out on a finely crafted piece of equipment!

Dee...I'm in total agreement with your post too!

Regarding dhammis and dr. dave...Oz still put it best: "They don't know what they don't know!"

Scott Lee

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 06:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I'll bet pool players would really line up to use a machine that offered "computerized stroke analysis" like you can get for your golf swing.<hr /></blockquote> Not me. Even that laser pointer on the cue stick to show your stroke direction... I didn't want to see how badly my tip was moving.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr>Hey, maybe I need to get busy and invent one. Let's see ... accelerometers, 3-D video tracking, ..... this posting marks my "date of conception" <hr /></blockquote>Sorry man, but you're about 10 years late on this post.

Fred

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> If I point the stick north with left english, I can't stand it if the cue ball goes north east. It has to go north-by-east. (For those of you who were deprived of proper training by the BSA, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_the_compass ) <hr /></blockquote>I like this answer and I like Fran's answer. Some people like low squirt shafts. Some people like normal squirt shafts. Some people take it too far and don't give the other side the benefit of their opinion and preferences.

I'm a normal squirt shaft type of guy. And most readers know that I've given all of the low squirt shafts a more than fair trial.

Understanding the difference in squirt characteristics is a good thing from the standpoint of understanding what you like. It really shouldn't matter what someone else likes.

Fred

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form. <hr /></blockquote>Why in the world would you say something so wrong as "that to most cue makers cue making is strictly an art form?"

That's misleading, ignorant, and pretty damned insulting.

Fred &lt;~~~ edited

joepool
03-04-2007, 09:31 AM
great post --- thank you

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> great post --- thank you <hr /></blockquote>
Good to see you posting, Tom.

Regards,

Fred Agnir

Duckie
03-04-2007, 10:17 AM
This has been a interesting thread to me. It has me thinking alot about my stroke, english use and style of play.

I think I'm one of those whose style of play does not need to consider deflection and squirt as much as those with a different style.

I use center ball english as much as I can, maybe thats the biggest reason. I've taken the attitude that english use should be limted as much as possible.

Another is my stroke. My dad had a saying about stroking, " Stroke it, don't poke it". I don't have a long back stroke, but when I start my forward stroke, I feel like I'm pushing through the cue ball instead of hitting through it. Maybe this helps prevent defelection.
Lately, I have been really focus on my stroke speed. Its amazing the affect a little change in speed can have. Didn't Mosconi say something like "There's two stroke speeds, soft and softer."

Also, I've been playing straight pool. 8 and 9 ball require the cue ball to be moved more and sometimes to get a shot requires lots of english and a firmer stroke.

Another thought is the size of table. Moving around a 3-1/2 x 7 is way different than a 4-1/2 x 9.

So, with varibles such as english use, stroking, game being played and table size, the wide range of opinions on shafts is understandable and both sides have valid opinions on the matter.

ras314
03-04-2007, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>
... On a 9' table, if you hit a ball with 1 tip of left side spin, towards a spot on the opposite rail, how much off of that spot, is acceptable deflection(obviously zero is perfect)?...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Being bored today, I decided to see how much deflection that gave me. Using my usual 314 shaft I couldn't see ANY deflection, neat the hype is true? Then I made the horrible mistake of trying a bar cue that I put a decent ferrule and tip on. Same results! Shot was from the foot spot to the center end rail sight and enough side to contact the side rail before the side pocket.

I was deliberatly trying to keep a level cue as possible so went to something like a 30 deg angle with both cues. Now I am seeing some squirt, I think, and a good bit of masse effect. Maybe a bit less squirt with the 314, not that sure.

So is there supposed to be any effect on squirt with elevation angle? I use the 314 shaft mainly because I like the taper and there is no difference in hit from rotating the shaft. And I can carry an extra shaft that plays enough the same that I don't notice which I am using.

I'm using the term "squirt" to mean a change in inital angle of the cb from that of a center ball hit and the term "masse effect" to mean the curved path resulting from a combination of side and bottom spin.

dr_dave
03-04-2007, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form. <hr /></blockquote>Why in the world would you say something so wrong as "that to most cue makers cue making is strictly an art form?"

That's misleading, ignorant, and pretty damned insulting.

Fred &lt;~~~ edited <hr /></blockquote>I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. I didn't mean any disrespect; on the contrary, I have great appreciation for fine craftsmanship and artistic design. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or any cue makers.

Respectfully,
Dave

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 12:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. <hr /></blockquote>
I can't imagine that you've ever talked to a cuemaker with your statement. Every cuemaker that can make a living solely on artistic fancy cues has put a tremendous effort on the structure of their cues. Every small-time hobby cuemaker is looking to do one thing and one thing only: to build the best playing cue they can.

I'm not sure why you're even lumping cuemakers with cue collectors. And what makes you think craftsmanship is not part of technical performance issues? And what is your confusion with "technical issues"? I say "confusion" because clearly you're confused at something. And yes, I'm getting frustrated. You are suggesting that there is some kind of superior technical performance that they're not doing. Purposefully or otherwise. And that's where you are confused.

Every cuemaker makes cues for playing purposes. The vast majority of cues bought are bought for playing purposes.


Every last cuemaker has taken great pains to design and develop their cues to be structural and dynamically the best tool they can make. Cuemakers are true engineers and I don't use that term loosely. They make use of the newest materials, modern technology, and techniques. And they design joints, connections, tapers, etc. with true design intent. And they as an industry improve on their product every day. They're not just cutting wood and dressing it up.

dr_dave
03-04-2007, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. <hr /></blockquote>
I can't imagine that you've ever talked to a cuemaker with your statement. Every cuemaker that can make a living solely on artistic fancy cues has put a tremendous effort on the structure of their cues. Every small-time hobby cuemaker is looking to do one thing and one thing only: to build the best playing cue they can.

I'm not sure why you're even lumping cuemakers with cue collectors. And what makes you think craftsmanship is not part of technical performance issues? And what is your confusion with "technical issues"? I say "confusion" because clearly you're confused at something. And yes, I'm getting frustrated. You are suggesting that there is some kind of superior technical performance that they're not doing. Purposefully or otherwise. And that's where you are confused.

Every cuemaker makes cues for playing purposes. The vast majority of cues bought are bought for playing purposes.


Every last cuemaker has taken great pains to design and develop their cues to be structural and dynamically the best tool they can make. Cuemakers are true engineers and I don't use that term loosely. They make use of the newest materials, modern technology, and techniques. And they design joints, connections, tapers, etc. with true design intent. And they as an industry improve on their product every day. They're not just cutting wood and dressing it up.<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

Again, I am sorry if i have offended you or any cue makers. I agree that many of them are master craftsmen, and many of them are great "designers" (of high quality playing cues and of asthetics). Again, I think you are reading too much negative intent into my postings.

I actually agree with many recent posters concerning cues. As long as a cue is straight, smooth, and durable, and as long as it has a good tip, I think a good player can play well with any cue, regardless of the amount of squirt, vibration, stiffness, etc. My impression, which might be wrong, is that aesthetics is also an important selection criteria for many cue customers.

No offense intended,
Dave

Qtec
03-04-2007, 08:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form. <hr /></blockquote>

This is an insult to cuemakers AND their customers!

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe after years of developing a solid hitting cue that has become a standard, the only difference between cues will be the decoration. People don't pay $1,000 or more for a POS.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I am sorry if I offended you or any cue makers.
<hr /></blockquote>

Dave, you should only apologise if you think you were wrong.

Its tough at the top. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Qtec

Qtec
03-04-2007, 08:23 PM
Hi Fred, glad to se you are back! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I read another thread somewhere about some guy had been waiting 7 years for his SouthWest!
When I told this to people ate the club they either fell about laughing or didn't believe me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Can't see a Dutch player waiting 7 years for a cue!

Qtec.............Alex Leyley made a run of 264 this weekend!

dr_dave
03-04-2007, 08:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues.<hr /></blockquote>

Maybe after years of developing a solid hitting cue that has become a standard, the only difference between cues will be the decoration. People don't pay $1,000 or more for a POS.<hr /></blockquote>I guess I was assuming the types of cues we are discussing are all pretty good (from a playing perspective, ignoring squirt for the moment). My only point is that aesthetics and craftsmanship are often important discriminators for buyers.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
03-05-2007, 02:11 AM
"That's misleading, ignorant, and pretty damned insulting."

AND...this was the edited version????
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the cue makers that are in the American Cuemakers Association (Devoted to promoting the American-made cue as a unique collectable art form.)use more
craftsmanship /artistry, then engineering to build a cue.
They use different joint materials, different screw threads, different shaft tapers, etc.
wouldn't that imply that the engineering is just personal preference....the craftmanship is in picking out the best wood and machining the different pieces....and the artistry in the overall eye pleasing design.
I've seen a Billy Gold cue priced at $30k, and years ago Jim Rempe had a $10k cue with diamonds on it....doubt if the diamonds helped him make a ball.....and you can't engineer $30k into 3 pieces of wood....Only engineer I heard of designing cues was Richard Helmstetter....and he found it more lucrative to design golf clubs (Callaway)
Fred, we're all just expressing our own ideas here (lettered or not)...seems lately, folks are finding hidden meanings behind simple statements?????
You might disagree with Dr. Dave's thoughts....and I guess since mine are similar....but misleading, ignorant, insulting?.....I just don't see it......

randyg
03-05-2007, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> great post --- thank you <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Tom. Welcome....SPF=randyg

Fran Crimi
03-05-2007, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Hi Fred, glad to se you are back! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I read another thread somewhere about some guy had been waiting 7 years for his SouthWest!
When I told this to people ate the club they either fell about laughing or didn't believe me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Can't see a Dutch player waiting 7 years for a cue!

Qtec.............Alex Leyley made a run of 264 this weekend! <hr /></blockquote>

Do you know why there is a waiting list of 7 years for a Southwest? It's because when they first came out they literally rocked the cue market. They were considered among the finest made playing cues out there and their reputation kept growing and growing as more top players played with the cues and raved about them.

I guess they could go into mass production if they wanted to, but they refuse to change the way they make their cues so there is a waiting list that grows with each passing year.

Tell your friends it's a shame that they're laughing rather than appreciating that the company won't compromise.

As for Dave's answer, I think he's venturing into areas that he knows very little about.

Fran

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> They use different joint materials, different screw threads, different shaft tapers, etc.
wouldn't that imply that the engineering is just personal preference.<hr /></blockquote>

And....? It still is engineering. All engineering of functional things is all personal preference. All of the choices made by these cuemakers are based on design criteria of their choice.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Only engineer I heard of designing cues was Richard Helmstetter.<hr /></blockquote>There are entirely too many degreed engineer cuemakers to list.

Jim Buss, Ray Schuler, Mike Lambros just to name a few recognizable names.

The skills the rest of them have, most would easily be the equivalent of higher than engineering technicians.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>You might disagree with Dr. Dave's thoughts....and I guess since mine are similar....but misleading, ignorant, insulting?.....I just don't see it......
<hr /></blockquote>Please Jack. The guy said that "most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form. "

Of the 400 + cuemakers that exist, are you trying tell me that you agree that "most of them... cue making is strictly an art form"? Exactly how many names do you need to come up with to make this statement valid? I guarantee you, you will never make this statement valid.
Of the millions of customers who purchase cues, are you trying to tell me that you agree that "to many of their customers, cue making is strictly an artform"? What percentage of customers do you think makes this statement valid? Cue collecting strictly as artform only is such a small percentage, it almost doesn't statically exist.


Are you trying to tell me that of the ACA members who have honed their skills to get to the point that they can make funtional art, that the base of all of their hard work is "strictly an art form." You've got to be kidding me!

Out of millions of cues made, only a very small percentage of them can be viewed as strictly an artform. Extremely small percentage. And even at that, the highest dollar cues, they've been played with.

A higher percentage of cues can be put in a functional art category. That also isn't anywhere near "strictly an artform."

Cuemakers put entirely too much work into the structure and design of their cues for one misguided, ignorant statement on the damned internet to knock all that hard work.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Fred, we're all just expressing our own ideas here (lettered or not)...seems lately, folks are finding hidden meanings behind simple statements?????<hr /></blockquote> Expressing ideas is one thing. Blatant ignorant misprepresentation of an industry doesn't fall under that category. If it's ignorant, then a little enlightenment is in order.

Fred

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 08:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Hi Fred, glad to se you are back! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I read another thread somewhere about some guy had been waiting 7 years for his SouthWest!
When I told this to people ate the club they either fell about laughing or didn't believe me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Can't see a Dutch player waiting 7 years for a cue!
<hr /></blockquote>When I made my order for a South West, the waiting list was 7 years. I think that was about 5 years ago. I'm guessing today, I still have 7 years to go.

People loved South West so much that the tremendous volume of orders created that waiting list. Their unwillingness to put their quality into a dangerous situation (by high volume production) is both a strenght and a curse. Not a curse to them, but a curse to those of us who want one!

They could have easily become a McDermott Cue but they didn't want to do that. I only say McDermott because Jerry Franklin and his friend Jim McDermott had similar philosophies in the structure of their cues.

Fred

BLACKHEART
03-05-2007, 08:24 AM
Hi Bob; After conferring with my wife (the silent partner), we can't EVER remember a customer asking for a "low-squirt" shaft. Lots of requests, but never that. If a customer wants a Preditor or one of my flat laminated shafts, that's what I give them. I personally don't like the Preditor shaft. I don't like 17 oz. cues either, but if that's what the customer wants &amp; it doesn't affect the basic structure of the Q, then that's what I give them...JER

sygfrid
03-05-2007, 09:11 AM
The Greatest wisdom I learned from a great Pool Player:

<font color="blue">
Who needs to use English if you can make the cue ball go around to where you want it using only natural angles? He who can control the cue ball precisely where he wants it to be using natural angles is a real PRO </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman3
03-05-2007, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sygfrid:</font><hr> The Greatest wisdom I learned from a great Pool Player:

<font color="blue">
Who needs to use English if you can make the cue ball go around to where you want it using only natural angles? He who can control the cue ball precisely where he wants it to be using natural angles is a real PRO </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Respectfully, I just don't think anyone is that good. If Efren loads up with a ton of side in many of his shots, it's good enough for me. I would think luck would be the only way short of absolutely "perfect" shape on each shot to avoid "adjusting" english or side. I know you are from Manila but if your not Marvin, Efren or Django, I'll still use my english. I am not putting down your comment but all of us see too much high level pool to believe anyone is that good at "natural" position. </font color>

DeeMan

eg8r
03-05-2007, 10:29 AM
I have a pretty simple question...At what point does building a cue, with known outcomes based on material chosen, more or less become a mechanical/assembler process instead of an Engineering process? My reason for asking this is basically for the most part I would think these builders get to a point when the engineering is limited and they become more of a production house (meaning more mechanical and assembly processes than engineering).

When I mention mechanical I am refering to the use of lathes and other tools used to shape and prepare the wood and other materials for assembly.

eg8r

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I have a pretty simple question...At what point does building a cue, with known outcomes based on material chosen, more or less become a mechanical/assembler process instead of an Engineering process? <hr /></blockquote>It's a good question without any solid answer. If you build the same skyscraper twice, three times, etc., there's still going to be engineering in it even though it's duplicated building.

Dennis Dieckman likes to call the craft "cue building," to emphasize the putting together of parts to build one solid unit.

Some people, like myself, will define engineering as the practical application of the sciences. That's as broad as the engineering disciplines themselves.

As long as the cuemaker/cuebuilder is striving to improve on his methods, materials, and machinery, there's engineering involved. And currently, there are only a scant few cuemakers who have stopped trying to improve on those. If they simply do the same thing over and over, expecting the same results, they're in production. Even if it's small volume.

Fred

eg8r
03-05-2007, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the answer. Even on the 20 year old programs that I have worked on, they all still have an engineering function working every day. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

wolfdancer
03-05-2007, 10:56 AM
getting back to the "cues" topic.........none other than
"the mighty Earl" now claims his cue has put him in a disadvantage against players with better cues (better engineered cues?)
Personally I think all the pro tournaments should be played with the same equipment...Willie Hoppe cues, or maybe some Sears "Miz" cues.

wolfdancer
03-05-2007, 12:24 PM
Fred, as written my reply was open to argument, and ridicule..
I've read a little about cue makers, and knew that Helmstetter wasn't the only engineer in the field...but his is an interesting story...
I'm out of my league, trying to argue "cue making and design" with you, and that was not my intent.
I think what I call craftsmanship, you call engineering. But engineering to me, is some break through, or innovative process that makes your product stand out from the rest. Recently the laminated shaft technology seem to fit that (my) definition of engineering.
I think you can be a great craftsman, without an engineering background, and produce a great cue. Conversely you can be a great engineer and couldn't make a good house cue.
I'll wait a few years before I buy a "Dr. Dave" autographed cue....
AND, while Dr. D. may have stepped out of his area of expertise, discussing cue manufacturing....misleading...maybe (if one considers him an authority on the subject)....and if "ignorant" means no particular knowledge about a topic...maybe
but still it's hard for me to justify the insulting label???
a "real" insult is from peer to peer....

I thought the board here was about sharing views, opinions, and comments.....and the range of members seems to be from PhDs to barely functioning imbeciles (like me)...maybe only me?
One of the reasons I add so few posts up here....is it's so easy to "shoot me down"....and I has a fragile ego

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Recently the laminated shaft technology seem to fit that (my) definition of engineering.
<hr /></blockquote>I think if we were to layout all of the different contstruction techniques used by different cuemakers, then what they do would also fit your definition of engineering.

Fred

DickLeonard
03-05-2007, 01:27 PM
Dick I just remembered the name from Rec.sport.billiard,
Ron Shepard .02 I assumed that meant his two cents. Up till then I never realized pool was an eerie world of nerds. Is Ron Still lurking in the pool world.####

cushioncrawler
03-05-2007, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Dick I just remembered the name from Rec.sport.billiard,
Ron Shepard .02 I assumed that meant his two cents. Up till then I never realized pool was an eerie world of nerds. Is Ron Still lurking in the pool world.#### <hr /></blockquote> Dick -- I think Ron is too broke for the present. One of my team mates told me that he took some $$$ off Ron at 1Pocket in Chicago a few years ago. I would be looking in some of the soup kitchens in the poorer end of town. madMac.

cushioncrawler
03-05-2007, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "That's misleading, ignorant, and pretty damned insulting." AND...this was the edited version???? Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the cue makers that are in the American Cuemakers Association (Devoted to promoting the American-made cue as a unique collectable art form.)use more craftsmanship /artistry, then engineering to build a cue. They use different joint materials, different screw threads, different shaft tapers, etc. wouldn't that imply that the engineering is just personal preference....the craftmanship is in picking out the best wood and machining the different pieces.... and the artistry in the overall eye pleasing design.
I've seen a Billy Gold cue priced at $30k, and years ago Jim Rempe had a $10k cue with diamonds on it....doubt if the diamonds helped him make a ball.....and you can't engineer $30k into 3 pieces of wood....Only engineer I heard of designing cues was Richard Helmstetter....and he found it more lucrative to design golf clubs (Callaway)
Fred, we're all just expressing our own ideas here (lettered or not)...seems lately, folks are finding hidden meanings behind simple statements????? You might disagree with Dr. Dave's thoughts....and I guess since mine are similar....but misleading, ignorant, insulting?.....I just don't see it......<hr /></blockquote> Woolfy -- I'm with u. I reckon that CueSmiths more or less hit their peak in perhaps 1880. Joints, laminations, central inserts at the tip, spliced butts, u name it -- choice of tree, choice of wood, treatment, machining, u name it -- steel cues, shock absorbers, u name it. Nowadayz, its more about making something pretty and sexy. There is only one development left out there to explore -- bent cue technology. Here, the USA CueSmith is being left behind. This is the big new thing on the horizon. madMac.

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Nowadayz, its more about making something pretty and sexy. <hr /></blockquote>And there you go. The ignorance and misleading information gets spread from Maine to Spain. This is absolutely disturbing.

"It's more about making something pretty and sexy"???? WTF are you guys talking about? 12 cuemakers? Every cuemaker has their higher end, which for some isn't all that high in the grand scheme. 400+ cuemakers make bread &amp; butter relatively plain cues. How can that possibly translate to "it's more about making something pretty and sexy"?

Fred &lt;~~~ stop the widespread BS

trob
03-05-2007, 03:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Nowadayz, its more about making something pretty and sexy. <hr /></blockquote>And there you go. The ignorance and misleading information gets spread from Maine to Spain. This is absolutely disturbing.

"It's more about making something pretty and sexy"???? WTF are you guys talking about? 12 cuemakers? Every cuemaker has their higher end, which for some isn't all that high in the grand scheme. 400+ cuemakers make bread &amp; butter relatively plain cues. How can that possibly translate to "it's more about making something pretty and sexy"?

Fred &lt;~~~ stop the widespread BS



<hr /></blockquote>
they have to make plain cue's to stay in business. Some people can't afford to spend alot on a cue. The first joss I had was more then 15 years ago when I didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. That 200 bucks I spent was alot of jack for me then but I wanted a joss. It felt the same as the joss I'm hitting now that has all kind of inlays.

I think south west cues are ugly as hell but I respect what there doing as a company. They are not comprising how there makeing there cue's just to turn a buck. When I first started playing if you want a Joss or a Schon you waited for quite some time after ordering one. But both company's some time in the 90's pumped up production and I don't think either are as well made as they were. In fact the Joss I bought 2 years ago was from a collector who had a bunch from in the late 80's that were never shot with. Thats the only reason I'm still playing with joss. I don't think they have the same quality they once did.

Jal
03-05-2007, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Nowadayz, its more about making something pretty and sexy. <hr /></blockquote>And there you go. The ignorance and misleading information gets spread from Maine to Spain. This is absolutely disturbing....Fred &lt;~~~ stop the widespread BS<hr /></blockquote>I didn't realize that Australia was in the mid-Atlantic..learn somethin every day.

Fred, you and some others pick up on every nuance of Dr. Dave's statements that can conceivably be wrong, often involving merely semantics, and then react as if the inquisition should be notified of his blasphemy. Whatever your motives are, they don't come across as simply wanting to "set things right." Frankly, the word "petulant" comes to mind.

And it's particularly ironic in that he has done as much or more than most here to de-mystify many aspects of the game, and will, without hesitation, admit a mistake when pointed out. Why some can't do that in a more civil manner bespeaks something about them, and that something is not what I would deem flattering.

If you think he should take dowm his website and halt publication of his book because he's not, say, Johnny Archer, why don't you make your best case for it. At least that would make for a potentially more interesting discussion, rather than this endless and somewhat boorish stream of hostile criticism.

Jim &lt;---wants to stop widespread peevishness

av84fun
03-05-2007, 10:48 PM
There have been SO many replies that this will probably will not add much but your view seems to be that it is inappropriate for equipment technology to add anything to a sport. If that were true, you could have written your same opinion about...say "oversized" and/or metal drivers in golf. But today, you won't find many (any) top pros who don't use them.

Deflection, since it varies with the tip-to-cue ball contact point and the force of the stroke is inherently bad and IMPOSSIBLE to predict PRECISELY since human beings don't hit cue balls EXACTLY where they want to with EXACTLY the intended force.

Therefore, a reduction in deflection is a positive development because it reduces the amount of deflection error...which, as noted, is an unpredictable event. If you can't predict it, you can't avoid it.

You can't just take the position that Mosconi didn't use a low deflection cue as proof that they have no advantages because it is absolutely impossible to compare Mosconi in his prime with whoever you think the greatest player today is.

Bottom line, if your premise is that there is no room in pool cue manufacture for technological improvements yours would be the first opinion of its kind to be proven correct in the history of sports.

Regards,
Jim

BLACKHEART
03-05-2007, 11:56 PM
HI Jim, My contention is clear. I'm not against technical advances, that improve Qs or the game. One case in point, is the glues we use today. They are far superior, to those that were used 20 years ago, when I started making Qs. What I am against is players trying to BUY their way, to a better game. "Give me one of those $300 shafts, I heard they'll improve my game" kind of crap. Deflecton is a relativly new word, to pool ears. 20 even 15 years ago someone at the local hall, might take you aside &amp; say "you know when you hit the Qball off center, it pushes the Qball to the right a little, so you have to compensate for that". When I heard that 50 years ago, my game made a huge jump. BUT NOT WITHOUT PRACTICE. Players have me put on a Preditor shaft &amp; honestly expect their game to be better. These are players that don't have a clue, as to how this game is played. Ray Charles would have a better chance of improvement, than they do. A hammer is a great improvement over a rock, but if you don't take the time to learn what it can do....YOU BOUGHT SOMETHING THAT MIGHT AS WELL BE A PAPER WEIGHT. Do you see where I'm coming from?...JER

DickLeonard
03-06-2007, 06:34 AM
Wolfdancer are you making fun of my Willie Hoppe cue, I had Paul Dayton cut down my Willie Hoppe one piece cue and make me a cue.

Willie Hoppe one piece cues were the greatest bargain ever. In the 60s they were $36 dollars a dozen. Of Course the two piece cues sold for $15.75 cents. You had to settle for a leather wrap.

My saying has always been give me a great tip you can have all the fancy cues.

I still remember the riding I took in Hudson Ny when I showed up to play Babe Cranfield with a one piece house cue. Of course I defended my myself admirably with my weapon. 87-63 and out. Not to take anything from the Babe he ran 74-70. In the afternoon match he ran 115 and out, so I didn't have an opportunity with the weapon. ####

Cornerman
03-06-2007, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> The ignorance and misleading information gets spread from Maine to Spain. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't realize that Australia was in the mid-Atlantic..learn somethin every day.<hr /></blockquote>I'm quite aware that Mac is from Oz. The saying is just a saying for "far reaching."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote :</font><hr>Fred, you and some others pick up on every nuance of Dr. Dave's statements that can conceivably be wrong, <hr /></blockquote>Just a note, this particular post of mine was in direct response to Mac, not Dave. I'm an equal opportunity type of guy. No favoritisms here.

[ QUOTE ]
often involving merely semantics, and then react as if the inquisition should be notified of his blasphemy. <hr /></blockquote>"Often," but not "always." I'd argue "never," but that'd be my side of the fence only. You might want to say that I do this only because you remember only the times that I post as such. It goes unnoticed when I direct posters to Dave's site on certain subjects. I've PM'd Dave about videos that I think would be helpful knowing that he's probably the first person to ask about it currently. And in the past, I used to say that I appreciate the hard work and the availability of the information, but those praises get lost in martyrdom due to inability to take criticism. And you know this.

I think you understate some of his sayings as "semantics." When someone says "most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform," exactly how far can you infer the meaning? The statement is wrong for some 99% of cuemakers. Semantics??? C'mon! Nevertheless, I said what I had to say, and Dave responded with what seemed to be a better understanding of the "semantics" of the words he chose. I think I stopped responding to his words on that subject.

If he (or anyone) gets to say things with questionable semantics, then I should get a chance to make it known how wrong the words are read. Fair is fair. Just like you're pointing out how my words come across now. You have every right.

Fred

DickLeonard
03-06-2007, 06:52 AM
Blackheart you forgot to add Amen to your post.####

DickLeonard
03-06-2007, 07:02 AM
Mad Mac I can't believe I have to go to Australia to get info on Ron Shepard. I had a hearty laugh about that, Pool is now Universal.

So when Minnesota Fats was beating the Sheiks out of their money in the Sahara Desert he wasn't kidding.####

Deeman3
03-06-2007, 07:11 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dick,

That was all most of us were trying to say, it's not the cue, it's the tip and consistency, not just fancy innovation. I see kids every night saying," I'm getting me a XYZ cue and, man, do they shoot great." Cues don't kill games, people kill games. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DeeMan

dr_dave
03-06-2007, 08:47 AM
Fred,

I can take the numerous insults and claims that I am overly defensive and passive aggressive, but I can't stand for your frequent misquoting and quoting out of context. Here is my exact quote:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If you just care how pretty a cue looks, then physics and engineering have no place in the discussion. For many people, cue making is strictly an art form ... and I appreciate that side of the industry.<hr /></blockquote>
Here is another:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. I didn't mean any disrespect; on the contrary, I have great appreciation for fine craftsmanship and artistic design. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or any cue makers.<hr /></blockquote>
This is how you quoted me below:
"most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform"

I personally think this is irresponsible, inappropriate, and insulting. I'm sorry if you think this is overly defensive, but I guess you have the right to express your opinions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Regards,
Dave

PS: Fred, FYI, I have received countless PM's and e-mails of support for me standing up to the recent series of attacks from you and Fran. Only a few of the people have posted their support publicly. Now I can see why. It only seems to make things worse. No hard feelings. I just wish you would give me a bit of a break, even if you don't think I deserve it.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> The ignorance and misleading information gets spread from Maine to Spain. <hr /></blockquote>I didn't realize that Australia was in the mid-Atlantic..learn somethin every day.<hr /></blockquote>I'm quite aware that Mac is from Oz. The saying is just a saying for "far reaching."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Fred, you and some others pick up on every nuance of Dr. Dave's statements that can conceivably be wrong, <hr /></blockquote>Just a note, this particular post of mine was in direct response to Mac, not Dave. I'm an equal opportunity type of guy. No favoritisms here.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>
often involving merely semantics, and then react as if the inquisition should be notified of his blasphemy. <hr /></blockquote>"Often," but not "always." I'd argue "never," but that'd be my side of the fence only. You might want to say that I do this only because you remember only the times that I post as such. It goes unnoticed when I direct posters to Dave's site on certain subjects. I've PM'd Dave about videos that I think would be helpful knowing that he's probably the first person to ask about it currently. And in the past, I used to say that I appreciate the hard work and the availability of the information, but those praises get lost in martyrdom due to inability to take criticism. And you know this.

I think you understate some of his sayings as "semantics." When someone says "most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform," exactly how far can you infer the meaning? The statement is wrong for some 99% of cuemakers. Semantics??? C'mon! Nevertheless, I said what I had to say, and Dave responded with what seemed to be a better understanding of the "semantics" of the words he chose. I think I stopped responding to his words on that subject.

If he (or anyone) gets to say things with questionable semantics, then I should get a chance to make it known how wrong the words are read. Fair is fair. Just like you're pointing out how my words come across now. You have every right.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
03-06-2007, 09:06 AM
Dick, my first cue was a Willie Hoppe....weighed in around 21 or 22 oz, as I remember. I had heard that they originally sold for $15....and I can't remember what I paid for mine....but I do remember selling it to a "collector"....he also had an antique pool table collection, of over 100 tables.
He paid me $100, his limit....but said he was robbing me.
I'm not sure the Hoppe was a weapon in your hands.....I'd guess it was more like a fine instrument.

Stretch
03-06-2007, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Blackheart you forgot to add Amen to your post.#### <hr /></blockquote>

Amen in unison. Now, flip for break? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Cornerman
03-06-2007, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>

Here is my exact quote:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If you just care how pretty a cue looks, then physics and engineering have no place in the discussion. For many people, cue making is strictly an art form ... and I appreciate that side of the industry.<hr /></blockquote>
Here is another:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. I didn't mean any disrespect; on the contrary, I have great appreciation for fine craftsmanship and artistic design. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or any cue makers.<hr /></blockquote>
This is how you quoted me below:
"most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform"

I personally think this is irresponsible, inappropriate, and insulting. I'm sorry if you think this is overly defensive, but I guess you have the right to express your opinions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

LOL!!!!! No David. Here is your EXACT QUOTE:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr. Dave:</font><hr>I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now who's irresponsible??? If you had just said "for many people" originally, I would never have said anything. But you didn't.

Anyone who backs you up now better read this backpedaling crap.

Fred &lt;~~~ cannot believe you'd try to pull that baloney

Cornerman
03-06-2007, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>


This is how you quoted me below:
"most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform"<hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>And for those that can't understand reading, I didn't quote Dr. Dave in his acusatory post. I paraphrased him.

And the paraphrasing matches exactly with the QUOTATION that I held in disgust that I QUOTED earlier. A simple reread which apparently is too hard to do would confirm that.

I've both quoted and paraphrased. I was pretty clear which was which. And to be very clear, both the paraphrase and the quoted line matches exactly the same sentiment.

Fred

trob
03-06-2007, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Wolfdancer are you making fun of my Willie Hoppe cue, I had Paul Dayton cut down my Willie Hoppe one piece cue and make me a cue.

Willie Hoppe one piece cues were the greatest bargain ever. In the 60s they were $36 dollars a dozen. Of Course the two piece cues sold for $15.75 cents. You had to settle for a leather wrap.

My saying has always been give me a great tip you can have all the fancy cues.

I still remember the riding I took in Hudson Ny when I showed up to play Babe Cranfield with a one piece house cue. Of course I defended my myself admirably with my weapon. 87-63 and out. Not to take anything from the Babe he ran 74-70. In the afternoon match he ran 115 and out, so I didn't have an opportunity with the weapon. #### <hr /></blockquote>

I have a willie hoppie cue hanging on the wall..and that's where it belongs. A duff off the rack hits better then that does. lol But to each his own!

dr_dave
03-06-2007, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>

Here is my exact quote:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If you just care how pretty a cue looks, then physics and engineering have no place in the discussion. For many people, cue making is strictly an art form ... and I appreciate that side of the industry.<hr /></blockquote>
Here is another:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I am sorry if people were insulted by my statement. Most of the cue makers and cue collectors I have met do seem to be more focused on the beauty and craftsmanship of the cues, and less focussed on technical performance issues. I didn't mean any disrespect; on the contrary, I have great appreciation for fine craftsmanship and artistic design. Again, I am sorry if I offended you or any cue makers.<hr /></blockquote>
This is how you quoted me below:
"most cuemakers view cuemaking strictly as an artform"

I personally think this is irresponsible, inappropriate, and insulting. I'm sorry if you think this is overly defensive, but I guess you have the right to express your opinions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

LOL!!!!! No David. Here is your EXACT QUOTE:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Dr. Dave:</font><hr>I admit that most cue makers know very little about engineering and physics, and to them (and many of their customers), cue making is strictly an art form.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now who's irresponsible??? If you had just said "for many people" originally, I would never have said anything. But you didn't.

Anyone who backs you up now better read this backpedaling crap.

Fred &lt;~~~ cannot believe you'd try to pull that baloney<hr /></blockquote>Fred,

I wasn't trying to "pull" anything. I took quotes from the lead messages in the thread. I did not check every message in the thread. I haven't verified the quote you have above, but I don't doubt that it is correct; although, I would have preferred to see the complete context. Anyway, I meant no subterfuge. I'm sorry you still think I have devious intent.

I'm done with this one. You can have the last word.

Regards,
Dave

JohnnyP
03-06-2007, 11:47 PM
Fred: I used to enjoy reading your posts, but got tired of your nit picking on this thread. I don't know how Dave took it as long as he did.

This should be a place where friends can discuss pool, but know when to drop it when there is a disagreement.

Hey, I got to try out my buddy's new Tad last week. He was pulling it out of his case, and asked if I'd like to try it. He screwed it together for me, and as I was chalking up, I noticed the tip had never been chalked. He said go ahead, try it. What a lovely sound it makes, even when you miss.

Maybe I'll hook up the stroke detector and compare cues, looking for something that shows hard hit or mushy hit, etc.

DickLeonard
03-07-2007, 07:56 AM
Trob it sounds like it needs an overhaul it is nearing fifty years old. That really is a Rambow if it is old enuff. Herman Rambow made the Willie hoppe cues for Brunswick. They forced him into retirement at 86 years old then he started making Rambows for Keefe and Hamner in Chicago.

The Willie Hoppe house cues are the real find. The same inlaid work of Rambows,Balabushkas,Paradise,Palmers then send it to have it made into a two piece cue.####

BLACKHEART
03-07-2007, 08:10 AM
Hi dick, I bought a small oak chest at a farm auction, in Arlington Ill, about 15 years ago. In one of the drawers, there was about 60 pieces of Ivory. They were the pieces left over, when they cut out the Ivory balls. On the back of the chest was a lable. It was a "KEEFE AND HAMMER" lable. This chest could have been used, by the great one himself...JER

Jal
03-07-2007, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Dick I just remembered the name from Rec.sport.billiard,
Ron Shepard .02 I assumed that meant his two cents. Up till then I never realized pool was an eerie world of nerds....<hr /></blockquote>It's a shame it couldn't remain under the wholesome care of gamblers, drunks and con-artists.

Jim

Deeman3
03-07-2007, 08:26 AM
Dick,

I wonder how many great old cues have been thrown out with the garbage because they looked like old pieces of junk to someone who came across them in an old garage? How many would give a lot of money to have something that Herman Rambow worked on?

What I would give to see what you have seen and play against the greats you have played with. I don't mind that they would run over me, just the honor of playing them would be enough. Not any disrespect to the players of today but the old guys carried a lot of class in their dress and behaviour that we just don't have today in many cases. Of course, with straight pool, much of the luck factor just made the real skills show up in everyone's game as well. The real question, how many "events" today would fill up Madison Square Garden?

DeeMan

You gotta write that book before it's too late.

DeeMan

wolfdancer
03-07-2007, 10:43 AM
I'm a little surprised that Fred is going this far with the discussion. I think he has already made his point....and now we're into arguing over if it was burnt orange or ochre, misty or a light rain, 8:33 or 8:34?....
In short,rhetorical tautology ................
Dr. Dave offered an opinion on cue-making...(in line with my own)and has apologized if anybody was offended by that. My new take then as a reader, is that it's a combination of engineering principles, craftsmanship, and artistic design, all go into making a good cue.
In light of the recent "events" here....maybe the pool section could be split into an "experts" section, where if one made a statement, they should be prepared to defend the exact wording of it.
The other section would be for the recreational player like myself, who is pleasantly surprised over pocketing 3 balls in a row....and finds a table run, practically orgasmic.
We ask questions of course, and something like the 30' rule works for us....if the real angle though is 29.7'....that's info overkill......
So engineers, players that have run a "century" with regularity in 14.1.....anybody that has wagered the car title on a pool game....they would be eligible to enter the expert's section, a virtual, leather chaired,cigar smoke filled den, where the finer points of the game are discussed with much logorrhoea

Cornerman
03-07-2007, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'm a little surprised that Fred is going this far with the discussion. <hr /></blockquote>I will quote what I had earlier written after for some reason, someone else decided to bring back an already dropped subject.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Nevertheless, I said what I had to say, and Dave responded with what seemed to be a better understanding of the "semantics" of the words he chose. I think I stopped responding to his words on that subject.
<hr /></blockquote>And it has been dropped, yet again.

Shall we move forward, or does someone else want to accuse me of bringing it up again??? Or is this response someone's idea of me bringing it up again????

Fred

wolfdancer
03-07-2007, 12:18 PM
Fred, just seems to me that anything useful has already been said....it's gone from a discussion, to a heated argument, and has become an imbroglio. It's time to call it a "draw" with the technical edge to you .... before names are crossed off of Xmas card lists.
I thought Dr.Dave's apology to any cue-maker's that might have been offended...should have ended the controversy.
I also felt that you had made your points....quite well.
You made it clear that there is more "engineering" here then meets the eye....even I now understand that....and my Momma didn't raise no engineers.
So any new replies just prolong what has already been settled...imho

Cornerman
03-07-2007, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
I thought Dr.Dave's apology to any cue-maker's that might have been offended...should have ended the controversy.<hr /></blockquote>Is it just me or did I not say clearly already that I dropped it when Dave responded to me the first time? I don't understand these continued posts of "it should have been dropped."

It WAS DROPPED!!! LONG AGO!!!

Fred

wolfdancer
03-07-2007, 01:06 PM
then I apologize!! for my misunderstanding

Rod
03-08-2007, 02:04 AM
I hear you Jer, good post BTW. How can a player who doesn't stroke straight expect any shaft/cue to make his game better? Of course down the road (and a lot smarter) they'll swear it was the shaft. Had they stayed with the original they likely would have seen the same improvement. Still though they still struggle because their fundamentals are still not sound.

Then we have it spins and draws better. Hell, if you can only draw the ball a few feet, how would they know? I sure am glad I learned the old fashion way. Lots of hours of practice and competition. Of course lessons make the game easier not to mention countless books and video. In the end though it still boils down to paying attention and what the balls tell you.

Everyone these days wants a shortcut, like you said buy a game through equipment. On the table though nothing earth shattering has changed, just the people.

Rod

trob
03-08-2007, 03:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I hear you Jer, good post BTW. How can a player who doesn't stroke straight expect any shaft/cue to make his game better? Of course down the road (and a lot smarter) they'll swear it was the shaft. Had they stayed with the original they likely would have seen the same improvement. Still though they still struggle because their fundamentals are still not sound.

Then we have it spins and draws better. Hell, if you can only draw the ball a few feet, how would they know? I sure am glad I learned the old fashion way. Lots of hours of practice and competition. Of course lessons make the game easier not to mention countless books and video. In the end though it still boils down to paying attention and what the balls tell you.

Everyone these days wants a shortcut, like you said buy a game through equipment. On the table though nothing earth shattering has changed, just the people.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

It's amazing how golf and pool can be so simlar sometimes. Everyone is looking for quick fixes. I was just as guilty..struggled with a horrible slice for the first 4 years I played. Last year I finaly stoped all the equipment crap and all the quick fixs. No equipment will help if you don't have a good stroke or swing. I completly rebuilt my swing with the big stick and amazingly I haven't sliced since lol I'm going to buy an ob1 or a predator at the expo in philly next week but I've been playing for 20 years and have been told by a pro that my stroke is rock solid. So for my I think I might get a ball better. I don't know..But for 200 bucks it's worth it to find out. Hell I spent more then that every year on a new driver to fix my slice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

DickLeonard
03-08-2007, 06:56 AM
Rod it is still nice to read your posts. I always look for a post by Rod. Still poolwise.####

DickLeonard
03-08-2007, 07:14 AM
Trob I quit playing golf at 14 I saw no future in golf as a little people. I started playing again at 23 and every time I made a long putt all I ever heard was your suppose to make them your a pool pro. ####

Deeman3
03-08-2007, 07:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I hear you Jer, good post BTW. How can a player who doesn't stroke straight expect any shaft/cue to make his game better? Of course down the road (and a lot smarter) they'll swear it was the shaft. Had they stayed with the original they likely would have seen the same improvement. Still though they still struggle because their fundamentals are still not sound.

Then we have it spins and draws better. Hell, if you can only draw the ball a few feet, how would they know? I sure am glad I learned the old fashion way. Lots of hours of practice and competition. Of course lessons make the game easier not to mention countless books and video. In the end though it still boils down to paying attention and what the balls tell you.

Everyone these days wants a shortcut, like you said buy a game through equipment. On the table though nothing earth shattering has changed, just the people.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Rod,

Now, this is the best post I've read so far. It's about paying attenton to things others don't bother with and countless boring hours of learning and being humble enough to know that it's not the cue but the space between the ears that determine the discipline needed to learn this game.

Thankfully for many of us, there are many, many who continue to believe some "secret" or device will up their game while they have too much ego to admit they have 95% of the "secret" in the fundamentals that they glaze over like a cop through a doughnut.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>


DeeMan
Rod, it's great to read your posts as always.Most will understand squirt but will never get the real truth of what you are saying. Us evil gamblers depend on that....

Jager85
03-23-2007, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sygfrid:</font><hr> The Greatest wisdom I learned from a great Pool Player:

<font color="blue">
Who needs to use English if you can make the cue ball go around to where you want it using only natural angles? He who can control the cue ball precisely where he wants it to be using natural angles is a real PRO </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I understand that alot of people see english as something that should be limited as much as possible, but 1st of all you are not in control of the first angle you have at the table whether it is the shot after the break or the shot after and opponents miss or safety. Secondly, in 9 ball english is needed even more. You would need absolutely perfect table speed and a very well spread out table. I think more importantly than avoiding english is avoiding other balls that do not need to be hit on a shot.

Jager85
04-11-2007, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dhammis:</font><hr> There is no "Magic Wand" stick to solve all of your shooting problems, but better equipment will enable you to play better, regardless of your skill level. It's just one piece of the puzzle though. If you take good mechanics, good practice habits and good equipment, you will have a good player. If any of those things aren't good, the results will drop. Put Johnny Archer on a coin op table with chipped balls, ripped felt and a warped house stick with no tip and he's not going to play as well as he would with his Scorpion, Simonis and a set of Aramith balls. Take Joe Pool Player and put a $1500 Predator in his hands that won't make him a superstar unless he dedicates himself to improving his stroke and practices. Take someone with average skill, like a regular league player, and give them a decent cue and they will pick up a ball or two per game. I'd bet just about anything on it, because the other parts are in place. They practice. They understand that good mechanics are important. They will see a difference. <hr /></blockquote>

Will a low deflection shaft really make you play better? I don't think so. I have made this similar post on a few message boards. It is not about how much a shaft deflects it is about what you are used to shooting with. If you shoot with a Meucci make 99% of your shots do you think switching to a low deflection shaft like a Predator will up that to 100%? No, it will probably decrease that percentage by a big ratio depending on how much english you use. They are entirely different shafts and require completely different compensation.

A good stroke is more important than any cue. Some may even believe that a bad stroke will be less affected by a low deflection shaft, but I think people forget about a little thing called throw.

Say you are playing with a high deflection shaft and the CB is the same distance from the OB as the OB is to the pocket and it is a straight in shot. You intend to apply no english, hitting center ball. Oops your stroke is not perfect you put 1/4 tip left english on the CB accidentally. Now the CB squirts to the right as if to miss the shot to the left of the pocket, but upon contact the OB is thrown to the right due to the left-hand spin transfer putting the ball back on track to the pocket; WHEW! Say you hit the same shot with a low deflection shaft. Now the CB deflection is minimized so the line still looks good, but upon contact the OB is thrown to the right due to the left-hand spin transfer and oops i missed the shot to the right of the pocket.

If the distances were different it may go the other way where a high deflection shaft would miss the shot and the low deflection shaft would make the shot. This goes to show that it is not about having a great stick, it is about having a great stroke and playing with a consistent shaft.

Curtis

fastfats7
04-12-2007, 09:44 PM
I was browsing a low-deflection thread on AZB called "SHAFTS, stick with custom or go to predator?" on AZB and came across this statement allegedly from Mr. Bill Stroud. If these are really his words, then it is a huge statement about the low deflection shafts and is definitely the most positive view I have heard from any custom cuemaker.

"I spoke to Billy Stroud of Josswest on the phone last Friday, and he had a lot to say on this subject. We were talking hit, and taper, and how he's changed his in the last 30 years. He also had a hand in designing the Universal Smart shaft.

Bill actually steered me away from a new Josswest shaft for my old cue. I thought that his latest taper might be an improvement, but here is what he said. IF A PLAYER IS A SERIOUS COMPETITOR, AND PLAYS ON SIMONIS CLOTH, HE NEEDS TO USE AN ANTI-DEFLECTION SHAFT. He could have steered me towards one of his shafts for $350, or a Universal since he designed it, but he didn't! He spoke at length about how Simonis cloth has changed the game. He said that he had played with a Predator shaft for a few hours (he's a world class one-pocket player), and that it took 15 mins to adjust. After that, he said he just stopped compensating for deflection, and just pocketed EVERYTHING ! He is sold on it and the only qualifier was the tip. He likes the Moori medium and says that if you are used to another the hit may take some adjustment, but nothing major. He also likes the shaft in the 12.75mm configuration.

Last but not least, he mentioned the changes to position play in his game due to a laminated shaft. Keep in mind that this applies to great equipment with new Simonis cloth, but he said that he uses the rails less than before for shapes. He told me without mincing any words that I need a modern technology type shaft. He mentioned that there are many, but it seemed that Predator got named the most. I think that's a huge endorsement and a new shaft is on my short list...Tom"

Certainly makes me consider giving them another shot,
IM

trob
04-13-2007, 06:20 AM
I had my heart set on a predator until I hit a ball with the ob1 at the expo. It hit so good I bought it immediatly. lol

slim
04-13-2007, 07:39 AM
Evelyn said her and Fats Never went out of country. When they needed a vacation, they went home.