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View Full Version : Dead Breaks: Question for Dr. Dave, et al.



WoodMonkey
03-03-2007, 08:12 AM
Hi,

I'm trying to figure out what causes "dead" breaks. What I mean is a break where you get good power and a good hit on the head ball and yet the rack just sort of defies your hit and a large bunch of the balls don't move at all, like they were glued together. I've felt for a long time like I get more such breaks than other players, but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Note that this happens on bar tables with cheap light balls up to my own 9'-footer at home with Aramith Premium balls.

What's up???

Thanks,

Wood Monkey

Chopstick
03-03-2007, 10:56 AM
It is all explained and demonstrated in Joe Tuckers book and DVD set called Racking Secrets.

Joe Tucker Web Site (http://www.joetucker.net/start.html)

For a better break in general go here.

CeeBee's Break Rak Web Page. (http://www.breakrak.com/)

The Break Rak may be a bit expensive unless you are really serious about improving your break. CeeBee's book "The Great Break Shot" is the most comprehensive compilation of break shot information I have ever seen.

I own both of these products and they are excellent.

BRussell
03-03-2007, 12:01 PM
Could it be that you're just not getting a tight rack?

Billy
03-04-2007, 12:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Could it be that you're just not getting a tight rack? <hr /></blockquote>

that's exactly what it is, a loose rack

jmo

WoodMonkey
03-04-2007, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Could it be that you're just not getting a tight rack? <hr /></blockquote>

that's exactly what it is, a loose rack

Good try, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a plenty tight rack that just doesn't budge in a big way after a hit. I've seen it with good balls and cheap balls. I'm not talking about the whole rack, but just a central core that stays put.

Wood Monkey

Cornerman
03-04-2007, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BRussell:</font><hr> Could it be that you're just not getting a tight rack? <hr /></blockquote>

that's exactly what it is, a loose rack

Good try, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a plenty tight rack that just doesn't budge in a big way after a hit. I've seen it with good balls and cheap balls. I'm not talking about the whole rack, but just a central core that stays put.

Wood Monkey <hr /></blockquote>I've always thought in 8-ball or 10-ball, that if the rack was pretty tight, if you break from the side there would be a point of contact that directs the majority of the energy directly down one side of balls. This would create little movement in the rack, with the wing ball going several rails.

Also, the "inner triangle" concept is discussed in Joe Tucker's writings. It's very telling.

If most of the rack is tight, but one of the balls behind the head ball isn't quite touching, then see paragraph one. Attacking from one of the two sides will be less spreading (and the other will be more spreading).



Fred

dr_dave
03-04-2007, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> Hi,

I'm trying to figure out what causes "dead" breaks. What I mean is a break where you get good power and a good hit on the head ball and yet the rack just sort of defies your hit and a large bunch of the balls don't move at all, like they were glued together. I've felt for a long time like I get more such breaks than other players, but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Note that this happens on bar tables with cheap light balls up to my own 9'-footer at home with Aramith Premium balls.

What's up??? <hr /></blockquote>
possibilities:
- loose rack, especially with lead/key balls
- hit on head ball not as square as you think
- poor angle of contact on head ball

Regards,
Dave

Alfie
03-04-2007, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> possibilities:
- loose rack, especially with lead/key balls
- hit on head ball not as square as you think
- poor angle of contact on head ball <hr /></blockquote>
dirty balls, dirty cloth, dirt, humidity, more dirt

Bob_Jewett
03-04-2007, 04:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> ... I'm talking about a plenty tight rack that just doesn't budge in a big way after a hit. I've seen it with good balls and cheap balls. I'm not talking about the whole rack, but just a central core that stays put ... <hr /></blockquote>
I still think this is due to a loose rack. I never saw a bad rack at the IPT events. They were playing on new cloth (or pretty new) with a trained table and Sardo racks. Often after the break, there were more balls above the side pockets than below. There was rarely if ever a major cluster left in the rack area.

The real question is how few gaps can there be to get a "slug" rack?

If you are consistently getting bad breaks on a table, try racking at the other end. If you want to be complete, train the table by tapping the balls into place -- you will need a template for this.

Qtec
03-04-2007, 08:30 PM
Inner triangle? Sounds interesting. Could you expand or do I have to buy the DVD?
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif........likes Joe.

TennesseeJoe
03-04-2007, 09:16 PM
This could happen with a miss matched set of balls. Some older balls especially the 1 thru 9 may be worn and slightly smaller. This will prevent a tight rack even though the balls seem to be close together. This doesn't seem to be the case with your home table though.

Fran Crimi
03-05-2007, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie: dirty balls, dirty cloth, dirt, humidity, more dirt [/quote:</font><hr>

Yup. That's what I would've said after the obvious reasons have been eliminated. Combine dirt and moisture and you've got mud.

Fran

Cornerman
03-05-2007, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Inner triangle? Sounds interesting. Could you expand or do I have to buy the DVD?
Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif........likes Joe. <hr /></blockquote>Buy the DVD!!! But, the inner triangle of 8-ball or 10-ball are the three balls starting with 8-ball or 10-ball and the two directly behind them. If there are gaps betwee this inner triangle and the rest of the balls, the tendency is for those three to hang out in the rack area after the break.

Fred

WoodMonkey
03-05-2007, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> Hi,

I'm trying to figure out what causes "dead" breaks. What I mean is a break where you get good power and a good hit on the head ball and yet the rack just sort of defies your hit and a large bunch of the balls don't move at all, like they were glued together. I've felt for a long time like I get more such breaks than other players, but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Note that this happens on bar tables with cheap light balls up to my own 9'-footer at home with Aramith Premium balls.

What's up??? <hr /></blockquote>
possibilities:
- loose rack, especially with lead/key balls
- hit on head ball not as square as you think
- poor angle of contact on head ball

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Just to clarify: My table and balls are brand new so no dirt on anything, no loose racks, and I break at both ends of the table to get equal wear throughout table.

I think the comments relating to angle of hit are more what I was looking for. Perhaps Dr. Dave or others could expand on this idea, like the comment that one guy made about all the energy flowing down the line of the outer balls so that the center remains largely intact. i.e., What angle(s) of hitting the head ball would be particularly bad or good, etc. and why.

I might also throw in that I've noticed this problem more when I get a bit too much backspin on my break (low english).

Thanks for everyone's input . . .

Billy_Bob
03-05-2007, 09:03 AM
A bit more on "tight racks"...

Many BRAND NEW triangles will not rack tightly! This is with a brand new set of balls. It is impossible to get a good tight rack with many triangles. Sometimes placing a few pieces of masking tape in the very front of the triangle will push the head ball back a little - enough to make a good tight rack.

Whoever manufactures these triangles does not do a very good job of designing them and/or manufacturing them.

The flimsy cheap plastic bar table triangles are the worst. With some of these, they will rack differently depending on which corner of the triangle you use!

There is a hard black plastic triangle which racks great (new set of balls). but I have not found this for sale on the internet. I bought this at "The Cue Ball" in Salem, Oregon. They use these triangles on all their tables in the pool hall there and at bars in the area which play "serious pool".

The balls can be say 20 years old. And from years of playing 9-ball, the 1 through 9 will be smaller than the other balls.

Also the balls can be dirty or clean.

Then certain "rack artists" will rack by placing pressure on the rear outside balls (with their fingers), but not put any pressure on the inside balls (with their fingers). This leaves little gaps between some of the balls. Most players attempt to give a good rack. It is very rare I see anyone intentionally doing this.

A big contrast in breaking...

Dirty 20 year old balls with a poorly designed triangle on slow cloth (might be impossible for anyone to get a good tight rack).

-vs-

Clean brand new Super Aramith Pro balls with a good racking triangle on fast cloth (easy to get a good tight rack).

dr_dave
03-05-2007, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote WoodMonkey:</font><hr> Hi,

I'm trying to figure out what causes "dead" breaks. What I mean is a break where you get good power and a good hit on the head ball and yet the rack just sort of defies your hit and a large bunch of the balls don't move at all, like they were glued together. I've felt for a long time like I get more such breaks than other players, but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Note that this happens on bar tables with cheap light balls up to my own 9'-footer at home with Aramith Premium balls.

What's up??? <hr /></blockquote>
possibilities:
- loose rack, especially with lead/key balls
- hit on head ball not as square as you think
- poor angle of contact on head ball

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Just to clarify: My table and balls are brand new so no dirt on anything, no loose racks, and I break at both ends of the table to get equal wear throughout table.

I think the comments relating to angle of hit are more what I was looking for. Perhaps Dr. Dave or others could expand on this idea, like the comment that one guy made about all the energy flowing down the line of the outer balls so that the center remains largely intact. i.e., What angle(s) of hitting the head ball would be particularly bad or good, etc. and why.

I might also throw in that I've noticed this problem more when I get a bit too much backspin on my break (low english).

Thanks for everyone's input . . . <hr /></blockquote>
Are you absolutely positive the balls are being racked perfectly (i.e., all balls frozen to each other) every time? Look closely to see if there any gaps between any of the balls. It takes only a tiny gap to disrupt the energy flow through the rack.

Also, you mentioned bottom spin. This is counterproductive, because:

- less energy goes into CB speed (because some is used for CB spin), resulting is less breaking power.

- the CB won't park itself in the middle of the table as is desired. Slight follow is required for that.

One exception where bottom spin might be appropriate is with an 8-ball second-ball side break (see Section 7.05 in my book if you have a copy).

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
03-05-2007, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>
The Break Rak may be a bit expensive unless you are really serious about improving your break. CeeBee's book "The Great Break Shot" is the most comprehensive compilation of break shot information I have ever seen. <font color="blue">

Chop, plus the added benefit of buying a book with my name in it!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

DeeMan
Spetty's is there as well......

<hr /></blockquote>

ceebee
03-06-2007, 07:46 AM
The information that Joe Tucker &amp; I put in my book was very concise. The 2nd Edition will have some added info. Joe Tucker &amp; I had a great time writing the book.

I had hundreds of players tell me, thay had no idea the amount of knowledge that was available on one shot in the game. The book was reviewed by Pool n Billiards &amp; Billiards Digest.

The Break Shot is a very complex shot, but many are not interested in studying this shot or practicing this shot.

Thanks be to DeeMan, Chopstick &amp; Spetty for proofreading the manuscript. Thanks to my many readers, too.

Good Luck...