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Stretch
03-13-2007, 01:30 PM
I see this over and over again in virtually every pool book i've seen where the author shows how to make a two rail kick shot. According to most i've seen we're supposed to take a point half way between the cb and ob and point the cue at the corner pocket we're two railing around then parallel shift till we're over the cue ball. I hate to be the one to break the news. But if you do this your going to miss every time. Why? because these lines are NOT parallel! The cb will pick up running side as it bounces off the first rail causing the cb too bounce WIDE off the second rail. I mean this is very basic stuff so i can't for the life of me understand why so many authors hold this method up for instructional doctrine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If you still insist on useing this method to figure those two rail kicks try this. Go ahead and find your half way point and hold your cue faceing the corner pocket. Parrallel shift to over the cb as before but then adjust by pointing your cue "half way back to pocket". This simple adjustment will get you into the ob quite nicely. Hope this helps. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

sandgnat
03-13-2007, 01:37 PM
Thanks for the tip! Will bear this in mind and try it once my table is finally back in play! Hopefully less than two weeks from now... and my 6 1/2 months of "tablessness" will be at an end!

dave
03-13-2007, 01:58 PM
You're correct. It doesn't work in practice unless you put a lot of side spin (running english) on it. I prefer your suggested method. Still, it requires repeated practice from a variety of positions to hone your instincts into a reliable means of visualizing the shot. The steeper the angle into the first rail, the the more the angle off the second flares out (widens).

Bob_Jewett
03-13-2007, 04:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> I see this over and over again in virtually every pool book i've seen where the author shows how to make a two rail kick shot. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It is remarkable how many of them keep printing totally wrong stuff. It's easy enough to check, especially if you use the "Amazing Double-mirror Image Method" or ADIM for short. It is explained on the second page of http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-07.pdf

Mostly, it gives you a very easy way to put up a target ball exactly where the real ball would appear for a perfect mirror system. No calculation -- you see the exact target. This lets you see immediately how pitifully awful the two-rail mirror system is, but it also allows you to try to find out where it does work and maybe how to modify it so it works for more cases.

Paul_Mon
03-14-2007, 05:17 AM
Bob,

I have a rules question for you. The table I play on is tucked into an alcove that has a rail on the wall. Could I place an item on this rail, to be used as an aiming point, and then find a mark on the wall and remove the item prior to shooting?

Paul Mon

Bob_Jewett
03-14-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> Bob,

I have a rules question for you. The table I play on is tucked into an alcove that has a rail on the wall. Could I place an item on this rail, to be used as an aiming point, and then find a mark on the wall and remove the item prior to shooting?

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>
The rules are not perfectly clear about this. I've seen people place and remove chalk cubes, but I think this would be stopped in well-refereed tournaments. Maybe you need to put various blemishes in inconspicuous places at regular intervals down the railing.

Many people use objects within their home room as targets. This is especially true for golf games (played on a snooker table) or at one pocket, which both involve a lot of kicking and banking. On the front table where I play, I know the distant target for three-cushion bank shots at one pocket both for when the object ball is on the cushion and when it is away from the cushion. (Why those two spots are very different could be the subject of a separate thread.)

dr_dave
03-14-2007, 04:25 PM
FYI, there were some good ideas on this topic in a previous thread. See "two-rail parallel-line kick shot" under "bank and kick shots" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) for more info.

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> I see this over and over again in virtually every pool book i've seen where the author shows how to make a two rail kick shot. According to most i've seen we're supposed to take a point half way between the cb and ob and point the cue at the corner pocket we're two railing around then parallel shift till we're over the cue ball. I hate to be the one to break the news. But if you do this your going to miss every time. Why? because these lines are NOT parallel! The cb will pick up running side as it bounces off the first rail causing the cb too bounce WIDE off the second rail. I mean this is very basic stuff so i can't for the life of me understand why so many authors hold this method up for instructional doctrine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

If you still insist on useing this method to figure those two rail kicks try this. Go ahead and find your half way point and hold your cue faceing the corner pocket. Parrallel shift to over the cb as before but then adjust by pointing your cue "half way back to pocket". This simple adjustment will get you into the ob quite nicely. Hope this helps. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
03-15-2007, 09:59 AM
I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this topic. Moving my cue parallel for this shot has been a BIG problem for me. But now I have a good solution. That being the spot on the wall. (And moving over the same distance to another spot on the wall.) I did a little testing and was hitting the OB a lot more than with just moving my cue parallel (and changing the angle accidentially when doing this.)

As to "spots on the wall", I read somewhere that a pool hall had all sorts of spots marked on the wall for various shots on the tables. Then someone bought the pool hall and "fixed it up". They painted the walls! The players had a fit...

Deeman3
03-15-2007, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this topic. Moving my cue parallel for this shot has been a BIG problem for me. But now I have a good solution. That being the spot on the wall. (And moving over the same distance to another spot on the wall.) I did a little testing and was hitting the OB a lot more than with just moving my cue parallel (and changing the angle accidentially when doing this.)

As to "spots on the wall", I read somewhere that a pool hall had all sorts of spots marked on the wall for various shots on the tables. Then someone bought the pool hall and "fixed it up". They painted the walls! The players had a fit...
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Some of us might call that room a "trap" before the new paint job. However, more than one local has been robbed by an unscrupulous fella who might, say, move a table a couple of inches when everyone is distracted.

You didn't think the Tush Hogs travel with a player just because they are along for the ride? LOL </font color>

DeeMan

BigRigTom
03-15-2007, 03:41 PM
I personally learned a lot from the use of the parallel line kick shot as described in Dr. Dave's book.

I too had trouble using the system in some cases but after discussing those issues on this board and then practicing a LOT it started to make sense and I started to see the logic as well as visualizing the necessary adjustments.

At least the system of the parallel lines gives a point from which we can make the adjustments.

Before that I would try to visualize the angle in then the angle out to the 2nd rail contact point then try to visualize the angle into the 2nd rail and the angle out again. By the time I figured out those 4 angles I had an almost GUARANTEED MISS that worked ALMOST every time.

I can actually hit these kicks now more often than I miss so I KNOW I have learned something.

cushioncrawler
03-15-2007, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> You're correct. It doesn't work in practice unless you put a lot of side spin (running english) on it. I prefer your suggested method. Still, it requires repeated practice from a variety of positions to hone your instincts into a reliable means of visualizing the shot. The steeper the angle into the first rail, the the more the angle off the second flares out (widens). <hr /></blockquote>In english billiards on a 12' table i allwayz put the "max" of (running) sidespin on the (rolling) qball for all of my 3-rail kicks -- it seems to give more consistent rezults between varyus tables. For 2-rail kicks i like to uze "natural english". Uzing 2 mirrors, or just 1 mirror, for praktice, to help judge aim, duznt work (at most angles) on a 12' table. madMac.

dave
03-16-2007, 12:44 PM
I prefer "systems' that minimize the number of variables. If I can avoid the use of side spin, I will. It is hard to get the same proportional amount of side spin and ball speed everytime. If I can use a system that allows me, through practice, to only use the center axis, that will be my method of choice. One other comment about "systems", whether it's banking, kicking, aiming, whatever: they are only frames of reference. They are a starting point to get you introduced into a method of visualizing the shot. You still need to do repeated drills and practice in order to adapt and compensate for the many variables of shot speed, cloth type, rails, humidity, etc., etc., etc., that impact the effectiveness of any proposed system. There is virtually no such thing as a foolproof system that works under all conditions and is a substitute for hard work. IMO

cushioncrawler
03-16-2007, 04:09 PM
Another mirror sort of 2-rail-kick system that iz guaranteed to miss by at least 1 yard. U imagine a mirror along one of the rails, and imagine where the OB might appear in that mirror-image (ie u sort of flip the table over), then, u flip that new OB image uzing the other rail-mirror az the axis. This givz u your target "OB" which by now iz across the room somewhere. Good in theory, but will miss by a yard in praktis. I am assuming that the 2-rail kick being talked about involves 2 rails at 90dg. If it involves 2 parallel rails then disregard this stuff. madMac.

BigRigTom
03-21-2007, 11:38 AM
I coach the lesser skilled players on our 8 ball and 9 ball APA teams and when face with a kick shot where it looks right to use the parallel kick shot method I advise the player to use a half tip of high running english and medium speed on the shot, then visualize a rail road track where the cue ball goes down one track and comes back on the other track while parallel a center line between the cb and ob runs directly into the center of the corner pocket.

The reasoning I am using here is that the 1/2 tip of high running english will cancel out most of the skid of the cue ball the cue strikes it and also as the cue ball stikes the 1st rail. This give the shot the best chance of following the mathematically calculated parallel lines allowing the player to virtually ignore the other factors such as squirt, skid, friction caused running english coming off the rails, various table speeds resulting from various cloth types or tightness etc etc etc.

I'm not saying this will work for every one but it does work well for me and my team mates.