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bataisbest
03-13-2007, 05:31 PM
Just wondering if changing from a Medium tip to Hard tip will affect your game drastically? If so, in which ways? Someone at the poolhall mentioned you might tend to mis - cue more often. Also, How does one compensate or adjust to the new tip? Any "tips" would be appreciated. Thanks.

ras314
03-13-2007, 06:25 PM
I doubt hardness rating alone should make any appreicable difference in your play. More important is how well it keeps it's shape and how well it holds chalk. And maybe how long before it needs replacing. I would even venture a guess that I wouldn't notice a change in "hardness" as much as I would a different thickness. May depend somewhat on how much off center you hit the cb, but I suspect the mis-cues depend mostly on the stroke.

Strickly my oponion of course. I often use a break cue with a really hard phenolic tip just to check how bad my stroke is.

Sid_Vicious
03-13-2007, 09:29 PM
"Strickly my oponion of course. I often use a break cue with a really hard phenolic tip just to check how bad my stroke is."

You probably already know that I totally agree ras...sid

Rich R.
03-14-2007, 06:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bataisbest:</font><hr> Just wondering if changing from a Medium tip to Hard tip will affect your game drastically? If so, in which ways? Someone at the poolhall mentioned you might tend to mis - cue more often. Also, How does one compensate or adjust to the new tip? Any "tips" would be appreciated. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>
How the different tips affect your game, and possible miscues, depends a lot on your stroke and how good or bad it is.
How the tips feel to you is definitely a personal thing. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks. You have to decide which tip is best for you. There are pro players, for an example, who use everything from the very soft tips to the very hard tips.
I recommend you try a number of tips and then stick with the one YOU like the best.

Billy_Bob
03-14-2007, 10:39 AM
It seems to me that a pig skin (Moori) hard tip plays pretty much the same as a medium pig skin tip. That is what I use, a Moori Q (hard) tip.

I also use a closed bridge when shooting off center. This helps to prevent a miscue.

Bob_Jewett
03-14-2007, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bataisbest:</font><hr> Just wondering if changing from a Medium tip to Hard tip will affect your game drastically? If so, in which ways? Someone at the poolhall mentioned you might tend to mis - cue more often. Also, How does one compensate or adjust to the new tip? Any "tips" would be appreciated. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>

Just play with the tip to see if it works well. I've had hard tips that had no problem at all holding chalk.

One problem though: the labelled hardness of tips sometimes has little to do with the measured hardness. That's what Guido Orlandi found when he measured tips with a durometer. I suppose beyond that, the hardness might be different after installation and the top surface is removed.

SpiderMan
03-14-2007, 04:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> One problem though: the labelled hardness of tips sometimes has little to do with the measured hardness. That's what Guido Orlandi found when he measured tips with a durometer. I suppose beyond that, the hardness might be different after installation and the top surface is removed. <hr /></blockquote>

He measured hardness without removing the outer layer?

That would pretty much invalidate measurements for any tips that are sealed/coated such as LePro, Sumo, black Water Buffalo, etc. Also, since many tips are pressed to shape in manufacture, even uncoated these could be substantially denser on the outside.

Is there some link to this experiment?

SpiderMan

bataisbest
03-14-2007, 04:28 PM
Great! thanks to all for the info. I'm leaning towards Moori.

Bob_Jewett
03-14-2007, 06:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ...
Is there some link to this experiment?
... <hr /></blockquote>
Only by going to a tournament where Guido is doing cue work and asking him about it. I think he doesn't remove the surface when doing the measurement, but then it would depend on the radius and force on the probe. I don't know enough about materials characterization to say what would be required for pool tips. A quick trip to Wikipedia shows that it's complicated.

DickLeonard
03-15-2007, 06:14 AM
bataisbest here is the best Tip I ever received Willie Hoppe
when playing an exhibition would ask the room owner if he could try his house cues and if he found one he liked could he take the tip.

This is the only true way to find the cream of the crop.####

SpiderMan
03-15-2007, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> ...
Is there some link to this experiment?
... <hr /></blockquote>
Only by going to a tournament where Guido is doing cue work and asking him about it. I think he doesn't remove the surface when doing the measurement, but then it would depend on the radius and force on the probe. I don't know enough about materials characterization to say what would be required for pool tips. A quick trip to Wikipedia shows that it's complicated. <hr /></blockquote>

No doubt there. And recently I've seen product changes that scare me - collect all the data you want, and when you think you have the product characterized, the maker changes the formula without notice and invalidates anything you may have published or learned. Here are some recent examples that flummoxed me:

Hercules layered tips - Advertised for years as a 23-layer tip, sometime about 5 years or so ago these became a totally different product. They are now indistinguishable, even under a microscope, from Talisman. Even the font and ink color on the lettering matches up.

The venerable LePro - Forever I considered these a medium-hard tip, somewhere near the Triangle, maybe a little softer depending on batch. Last year I bought a supply of new LePro tips and they are totally off the scale for hardness. I'm talking harder than the WB natural, nearly useless except on break cues. I gave a couple to Sid V, who really likes hard tips, and even he said they were too hard to play with.

All of the above conclusions are based on product obtained from Atlas Billiard Supply over a ten-year period.

SpiderMan

DickLeonard
03-16-2007, 11:09 AM
Spiderman we would daba three in one oil on the tip to see if that would soften up the tip. Try leather softer, it takes a little experimenting to come up with the right formula. If the tip was to soft and spreading out I would trim the tip then put glue on the side of the tip. I would use tweeten in those days but the new epoxies would solve that problem today.####

SpiderMan
03-16-2007, 01:52 PM
You put 3-in-1 oil on tips to soften them? I assume you mean after installation and first play, when you decided they were too hard.

Did this cause any problems? I can imagine the CB getting greasy after a few hours of play with oiled tips /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

dr_dave
03-16-2007, 04:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> You put 3-in-1 oil on tips to soften them? I assume you mean after installation and first play, when you decided they were too hard.

Did this cause any problems? I can imagine the CB getting greasy after a few hours of play with oiled tips /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Maybe this is the secret "snake oil" solution for also dealing with throw. If the cue ball gets greased up enough, it might not throw or cling at all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dave

cushioncrawler
03-16-2007, 04:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> You put 3-in-1 oil on tips to soften them? I assume you mean after installation and first play, when you decided they were too hard. Did this cause any problems? I can imagine the CB getting greasy after a few hours of play with oiled tips /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Maybe this is the secret "snake oil" solution for also dealing with throw. If the cue ball gets greased up enough, it might not throw or cling at all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dr Dave -- I reckon that it would work against rather than help. If your balls were slippery then u would need to aim thicker to get the shot. Now, i reckon, kick-friction is the same for all balls in all conditions. Hencely, a kick with slippery balls will have a bigger effect on the throw angle than with ordinary balls.

This sort of effect iz the central basis for my continual gripe that we have had the modern (full-gloss) Krapamiths foisted on us. In the oldendays the balls were semi-gloss, ie they had less kick-effect, koz the balltoball friction was allready highish to start with. See what i mean?? madMac.

cushioncrawler
03-16-2007, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Spiderman we would daba three in one oil on the tip to see if that would soften up the tip. Try leather softer, it takes a little experimenting to come up with the right formula. If the tip was to soft and spreading out I would trim the tip then put glue on the side of the tip. I would use tweeten in those days but the new epoxies would solve that problem today.#### <hr /></blockquote>This reminds me, one of my mates allwayz used very hard (french) leather tips. And, he told me that every year he would get a batch of chalk-blocks, and drip a few drops of sewing-machine oil into them, then leev them spread out along a window sill on the sunny side of the house throo summer. Dont know what this really did to anything. I would reckon that it would give more kicks. He got a giant kick in a big match in India that cost him the match. madMac.

Qtec
03-16-2007, 10:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bataisbest:</font><hr> Just wondering if changing from a Medium tip to Hard tip will affect your game drastically? <font color="blue"> No. This change will not affect your game drastically. </font color> If so, in which ways? <font color="blue"> Why don't you try it and let us know. Or you could check the archives and you will find that the best tips are made from mammoth skin recovered from the Tundra. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> Someone at the poolhall mentioned you might tend to mis - cue more often. Also, How does one compensate or adjust to the new tip? Any "tips" would be appreciated. Thanks. <hr /></blockquote>

Someone at the pool hall told me that Deeman, Wolf and Dr Dave had formed a drag queen act called the 30 Degrees- but I didn't believe him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LOL

Q......... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif............tired. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

dr_dave
03-17-2007, 08:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> You put 3-in-1 oil on tips to soften them? I assume you mean after installation and first play, when you decided they were too hard. Did this cause any problems? I can imagine the CB getting greasy after a few hours of play with oiled tips /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>Maybe this is the secret "snake oil" solution for also dealing with throw. If the cue ball gets greased up enough, it might not throw or cling at all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Dave <hr /></blockquote>Dr Dave -- I reckon that it would work against rather than help.<hr /></blockquote>... not if you use basic ghost-ball/line-of-centers aiming (which assumes no throw) and you don't compensate your aim for throw.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>If your balls were slippery then u would need to aim thicker to get the shot.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, if you are used to playing with "stickier" balls.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>Now, i reckon, kick-friction is the same for all balls in all conditions. Hencely, a kick with slippery balls will have a bigger effect on the throw angle than with ordinary balls.<hr /></blockquote>"Cling" (AKA "skid" or "kick") is excessive throw caused by increased friction at the contact point between the balls (see page 4 in my May '07 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/may07.pdf) for more info). If the cue ball is really oily, and it doesn't pick up chalk smudges very well, I would expect the normal amount of throw to be less (for non-gearing shots), and I would expect no "cling" at all.

Although, this is all pretty much a moot point, because I don't think it is realistic for the cue ball to get "greased up" as described. I was just kidding with my reply to Spiderman. A small amount of grime and oil might actually help the cue ball pick up and retain chalk smudges, and increase the frequency of "cling."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>This sort of effect iz the central basis for my continual gripe that we have had the modern (full-gloss) Krapamiths foisted on us. In the oldendays the balls were semi-gloss, ie they had less kick-effect, koz the balltoball friction was allready highish to start with. See what i mean?? madMac.<hr /></blockquote>Now that makes sense. If the balls already have significant friction, and a chalk smudge didn't increase the friction any, then "cling" wouldn't be a separate issue. However, the amount of throw would still vary with cut angle, English, spin, and speed as documented in my August '06 through May '07 articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
03-17-2007, 05:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ....<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>This sort of effect iz the central basis for my continual gripe that we have had the modern (full-gloss) Krapamiths foisted on us. In the oldendays the balls were semi-gloss, ie they had less kick-effect, koz the balltoball friction was allready highish to start with. See what i mean?? madMac.<hr /></blockquote>Now that makes sense. If the balls already have significant friction, and a chalk smudge didn't increase the friction any, then "cling" wouldn't be a separate issue. However, the amount of throw would still vary with cut angle, English, spin, and speed as documented in my August '06 through May '07 articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html). <hr /></blockquote> And, one could factor in the fact (tautology alert) that the oldendayz balls were harder, ie smaller impact marks, ie less chance of chalk meeting ball (perhaps 50% less).

OE of course helps poolplayers to avoid the worst effects of cling, but OE duznt much help the poor old english-billiards player. The EBP is mainly playing cannons and in-offs, ie the EBP is more interested in what cling duz to the qball, ie the qball's deflexion angle -- here OE duznt help, ie the qball's deflexion angle is too large koz the qball loozes much of its topspin and OE makes things (the cling deflexion angle) worse -- but, IE duz help the EBP a bit here (but this is my little secret).

Someone shood do some tests re the effect of ball-polish. Sprinkle some chalk on the cloth, roll balls throo, and compare how much sticks to unpolished balls versus polished balls. Then some tests for how much qtip-chalk (qtip chalk-marks) sticks to a polished ball vs unpolished. sadMac.