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View Full Version : which is more common on tour, systems or rote



lewcamp
04-09-2007, 01:02 AM
I have always been a systems man myself, wether it be "corner 5", "plus 2" or whatever the case calls for and i regularly have the debate with friends of mine who think that the touring pros dont use systems for kicking and banking, because they take too much time and too much thought. So i thought i would post here and see what yall thought about it. I guess i grew up on Robert Burns standard book of pool and happen to think he is a great writer of pool books. He illustrates 2 and 3 rail systems in his book and they seem to work very well for me, after you get used to the equipment you are playing on. I have tried over the last 15 years to show these systems to my friends and have found very few beleivers in systems, because they say they are too complicated to learn , but i think it is just because they are too stubburn and impatient to learn a new trick. I just keep telling them that they are good reference points at any rate but they insist they can guess and come close enough.

So what do you all think? Do the pros use these systems much or is it just by feel and the rote system from shooting them a thousand times.

Cydpkt
04-09-2007, 08:13 AM
I bet that those friends guess and get close enough on their leaves as well. Systems are great for giving you the area, you also have to take into account the table that you are playing on. There are so many variables to take into account. I also use a system when judging my kicks and banks. There is a big difference between kicking for a hit and kicking to make with a leave. If your friends don't want to learn then they can keep plugging quarters while you wait to break! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Bob_Jewett
04-09-2007, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> ... So what do you all think? Do the pros use these systems much or is it just by feel and the rote system from shooting them a thousand times. <hr /></blockquote>
I think some of them use systems, but in the end they have to make adjustments by feel to correct for the conditions and speed. A Turk named Murat Tuzul (probably with dots on the u's) has developed a way to calibrate systems for conditions by shooting a few reference shots and has published a book about it. I suppose that could get a player to where he could play by system alone.

It's always amusing to watch a system player who makes a mistake in the math and ends up exactly a diamond off.

Stretch
04-09-2007, 11:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> I have always been a systems man myself, wether it be "corner 5", "plus 2" or whatever the case calls for and i regularly have the debate with friends of mine who think that the touring pros dont use systems for kicking and banking, because they take too much time and too much thought. So i thought i would post here and see what yall thought about it. I guess i grew up on Robert Burns standard book of pool and happen to think he is a great writer of pool books. He illustrates 2 and 3 rail systems in his book and they seem to work very well for me, after you get used to the equipment you are playing on. I have tried over the last 15 years to show these systems to my friends and have found very few beleivers in systems, because they say they are too complicated to learn , but i think it is just because they are too stubburn and impatient to learn a new trick. I just keep telling them that they are good reference points at any rate but they insist they can guess and come close enough.

So what do you all think? Do the pros use these systems much or is it just by feel and the rote system from shooting them a thousand times. <hr /></blockquote>

Good question. imo Systems are just a means to an end......that is they give particular shots a quantitative approach which leads you to a positive outcome. Once trained, your brain can then go on autopilot. When i look at pro's play as opposed to amateurs......they look like they're pretty much on autopilot. But rest assured they've done their homework at some point. Like you, i always thought that this system or that system gave me an advantage but only if i used it enough so as to fit into my normal pace and speed at the table, otherwise i'd over think it and miss. St.

SpiderMan
04-09-2007, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> I have always been a systems man myself, wether it be "corner 5", "plus 2" or whatever the case calls for and i regularly have the debate with friends of mine who think that the touring pros dont use systems for kicking and banking, because they take too much time and too much thought. So i thought i would post here and see what yall thought about it. I guess i grew up on Robert Burns standard book of pool and happen to think he is a great writer of pool books. He illustrates 2 and 3 rail systems in his book and they seem to work very well for me, after you get used to the equipment you are playing on. I have tried over the last 15 years to show these systems to my friends and have found very few beleivers in systems, because they say they are too complicated to learn , but i think it is just because they are too stubburn and impatient to learn a new trick. I just keep telling them that they are good reference points at any rate but they insist they can guess and come close enough.

So what do you all think? Do the pros use these systems much or is it just by feel and the rote system from shooting them a thousand times. <hr /></blockquote>

Good question. imo Systems are just a means to an end......that is they give particular shots a quantitative approach which leads you to a positive outcome. Once trained, your brain can then go on autopilot. When i look at pro's play as opposed to amateurs......they look like they're pretty much on autopilot. But rest assured they've done their homework at some point. Like you, i always thought that this system or that system gave me an advantage but only if i used it enough so as to fit into my normal pace and speed at the table, otherwise i'd over think it and miss. St.

<hr /></blockquote>

Good post, we sort of think alike here. I may use several "systems" as a reference, but on most routine kicks and banks I visualize the geometrically-correct path and then adjust.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
04-09-2007, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> I have always been a systems man myself, wether it be "corner 5", "plus 2" or whatever the case calls for and i regularly have the debate with friends of mine who think that the touring pros dont use systems for kicking and banking, because they take too much time and too much thought. So i thought i would post here and see what yall thought about it. I guess i grew up on Robert Burns standard book of pool and happen to think he is a great writer of pool books. He illustrates 2 and 3 rail systems in his book and they seem to work very well for me, after you get used to the equipment you are playing on. I have tried over the last 15 years to show these systems to my friends and have found very few beleivers in systems, because they say they are too complicated to learn , but i think it is just because they are too stubburn and impatient to learn a new trick. I just keep telling them that they are good reference points at any rate but they insist they can guess and come close enough.

So what do you all think? Do the pros use these systems much or is it just by feel and the rote system from shooting them a thousand times. <hr /></blockquote>

Good question. imo Systems are just a means to an end......that is they give particular shots a quantitative approach which leads you to a positive outcome. Once trained, your brain can then go on autopilot. When i look at pro's play as opposed to amateurs......they look like they're pretty much on autopilot. But rest assured they've done their homework at some point. Like you, i always thought that this system or that system gave me an advantage but only if i used it enough so as to fit into my normal pace and speed at the table, otherwise i'd over think it and miss. St.

<hr /></blockquote>

Good post, we sort of think alike here. I may use several "systems" as a reference, but on most routine kicks and banks I visualize the geometrically-correct path and then adjust.<hr /></blockquote>That's all good stuff. I might also add that understanding of principles (e.g., kick and bank speed, spin, English, and angle effects) can sometimes be useful in knowing how much to adjust in different situations. An alternative to learning understanding is building intuition from years and years of practice and successful experience. Even then, I think understanding (and even "systems") can sometimes be useful to help back up one's intuition. To me, that helps create even more confidence.

Regards,
Dave

bataisbest
04-09-2007, 05:50 PM
Hi Everyone,

I think that if you really want to learn how to kick, watch the Filipino players. Efren, Parica, Bustamante. These guys have it down. They probably used the "diamond system"at one point just to get the angle down pat. The other thing about these guys is they have a vast knowledge of 3 cushion billiards, Balkline, etc. I've gotten better at kicking just by watching them play and how they react to different scenarios, use or non- use of English, etc.

lewcamp
04-10-2007, 07:27 PM
Yeah the philipino playrs are very good kickers and that is why i think they use one or more of the three rail systems to make their hits. I remember watching Bustamonte kick a three railer in the side pocket against Strickland i beleive, in one of the challenge of the champions matches and thinking to myself how accurate the hit hit to be and figured he did a little quick calculation to find the banking point to hit on the third rail. I have done that same shot several times since then, using the ,"corner 5", system (CR - FR = TR) and it is very accurate when you learn the table you are playing on. The great thing about a system to me is that you dont have to memorize 20 different shots you just use the formula and running english and you are darn close. There are places where the formula method terminates and you might have to memorize the exceptions to the rule, for three or four spots , but that is much better than memorizing 20 different shots or worse yet guessing. My point to my buddies is why guess when you can know pretty close with a small caculation.