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Jager85
04-12-2007, 11:56 AM
I have a stroke concern for you pros around here. I have been tol, then later noticed myself, that on some of my final backstrokes before I hit the ball i will hesitate for .5-1 sec. I have noticed there is no correlation between this and me missing shots. I was at first told that the hesitation is bad, but the I heard on ESPN that Allison Fisher normally hesitates on her final backstroke and a post on this site was about perfect stroke practice routine and it mentioned a pause on the final backstroke.

So my question is do you normally hesitate or have a smooth constant final backswing? Is this a personal preference? Is one right or wrong?

Curtis

dr_dave
04-12-2007, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr> I have a stroke concern for you pros around here. I have been tol, then later noticed myself, that on some of my final backstrokes before I hit the ball i will hesitate for .5-1 sec. I have noticed there is no correlation between this and me missing shots. I was at first told that the hesitation is bad, but the I heard on ESPN that Allison Fisher normally hesitates on her final backstroke and a post on this site was about perfect stroke practice routine and it mentioned a pause on the final backstroke.

So my question is do you normally hesitate or have a smooth constant final backswing? Is this a personal preference? Is one right or wrong?<hr /></blockquote>If a deliberate pause helps you prevent a rushed and tense transition from your final backstroke to the final forward stroke, then it is a good thing. For more information, see my stroke "best practices" document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf) and the links under "set-pause-finish-freeze" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

Happy pausing,
Dave

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2007, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jager85:</font><hr>.... So my question is do you normally hesitate or have a smooth constant final backswing? Is this a personal preference? Is one right or wrong?

Curtis <hr /></blockquote>
I don't normally hesitate at the back of the swing.

There are good players in both camps. In Fisher's case, there is another very important part to her sequence that you may not have noticed. The pause is when her eyes move from the cue ball -- which she looks at during the back stroke -- to the object ball -- which she looks at as the stick comes forward on the power stroke.

Another variation in stroke sequence is whether the player pauses at the cue ball before the final stroke. Some do, some don't.

1hit1der
04-12-2007, 02:13 PM
When I took a lesson from Scott Lee, he presented me with the pause in the backswing technique. Personally, I haven't grown comfortable with it. I think it disrupts the fluidity in my stroke. Not to mention it gives me an extra split second to think, which I tend to do too much of anyways when I'm shooting. I don't have a fully developed pre-shot routine though, so it's still something I come back to just in case other things aren't working.

Vapros
04-12-2007, 02:55 PM
As far as I'm concerned, that's where the stroke begins - at the top of the backstroke. Everything else is just aiming and whatever else you do to get ready. So I pause there. It's not the natural thing to do. I have to work at it.

Sig
04-12-2007, 05:11 PM
The pause is hard to get used to, and it feels like I'm not quite sure if my aim is still on track, but it makes sense to transition to the different muscle group.

Bob_Jewett
04-12-2007, 05:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sig:</font><hr> ... but it makes sense to transition to the different muscle group. <hr /></blockquote>
I don't know enough about sports physiology to know whether a smoother transition will result from a complete shutdown of one group before starting on the other, or from tapering the effort of one group into the other.

Does anyone have a reference on this topic?

pooltchr
04-12-2007, 07:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1hit1der:</font><hr> When I took a lesson from Scott Lee, he presented me with the pause in the backswing technique. Personally, I haven't grown comfortable with it. I think it disrupts the fluidity in my stroke. Not to mention it gives me an extra split second to think, which I tend to do too much of anyways when I'm shooting. I don't have a fully developed pre-shot routine though, so it's still something I come back to just in case other things aren't working. <hr /></blockquote>

From the sound of your post, it seems there hasn't been a lot of time since you had Scott working with you. The stroke (and pre-shot routine) he showed you requires a change that does take some time, and serious practice, before it becomes natural. I learned it from Randy, and struggled with it for a while. If you do the stroke drills (Mother drills) that Scott gave you in your perfect practice time, I can assure you that you will eventually see the results. If you don't practice the things Scott showed you, you wasted your time and money.
Steve

mantis
04-12-2007, 08:34 PM
I find that I am much more consistent with my stroke when I employ the pause. I am more accurate with my contact on the cue ball with the pause. I began trying it when I saw a number of pros doing it, and it worked well for me right away. When my stroke seems off, it is one of the first things I check to fix it.

Scott Lee
04-13-2007, 01:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 1hit1der:</font><hr> When I took a lesson from Scott Lee, he presented me with the pause in the backswing technique. Personally, I haven't grown comfortable with it. I think it disrupts the fluidity in my stroke. Not to mention it gives me an extra split second to think, which I tend to do too much of anyways when I'm shooting. I don't have a fully developed pre-shot routine though, so it's still something I come back to just in case other things aren't working. <hr /></blockquote>

From the sound of your post, it seems there hasn't been a lot of time since you had Scott working with you. The stroke (and pre-shot routine) he showed you requires a change that does take some time, and serious practice, before it becomes natural. I learned it from Randy, and struggled with it for a while. If you do the stroke drills (Mother drills) that Scott gave you in your perfect practice time, I can assure you that you will eventually see the results. If you don't practice the things Scott showed you, you wasted your time and money.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...Tim plays very well already. We talked about the fact that everybody pauses somewhere in their setup (good players just do it on purpose). Some pause longer at the end of the backswing, ala Randyg and Allison, and some just hesitate slightly, to allow a smooth transition...like me.
Different strokes for different folks.

Scott Lee

randyg
04-13-2007, 06:17 AM
Scott and Steve understand this:

We see the word "pause" as a transition, not a measure of time. Your cue has to change directions and your muscles have to change ownership.

In school we teach that your cue has to stop in three different places. A perfect Training routine ensures that to happen.

In game situations we just SPF and smile....SPF=randyg

socrates
04-13-2007, 06:53 AM
There are a lot more knowledgeable posters than myself on this forum and there are already have been some very informative posts made. For what it is worth here is a repeat of a post I made regarding this question in 2003.

Once again blending some golf instruction (Holographic Golf by Larry Miller) with pool I might offer the following:

Larry describes the three static positions of the golf swing as 1. the address (posture, stance and alignment),2 the top of the swing (at the point of trasition from backswing to forward swing and 3 the balanced finish.

In pool the three static positions might be, 1 the set at the cue ball before the final stroke, 2 the transition from backswing to forward stroke and 3 the freeze on the follow through at the end of the stroke.

It appears to me that the pause (or set) at the cue ball before executing the final stroke is very important. Certainly, there are some excellent players who do not have a perceptible set at the cue ball from practice strokes to final strokes. Having said that, it apears to me that this set in static position one allows the player to learn to "lock down the shot" and to learn to feel and experience the sensations required to sense the shot is on before they loose the arrow.

Certainly open to debate but the second static position would be the transition from backswing to forward stroke. For some, as elsewhere mentioned, Buddy Hall, Allison Fisher, etc. there is a perceptible pause at static position two. I might suggest you flip a quarter in the air several times and observe the transition from the top of the flip at the point where gravity takes over and the quarter begins to return to earth. I may be wrong, as I often am, but it appears to me that it is the smoothness of this transition that is critical to delivering a proper stroke. For some this will involve a perceptible pause, while for others it will not. However, the transition must be as silky smooth as the transition described above observing the quarter.

The third static position is the freeze on the follow through. The mantra slow back, accelerate through to a fluid finish might apply here. Sometimes this will be described as staying down on the shot. Again it appears that having a smooth stroke that flows to static position number three is a very critical objective.

Having said all of that, the point of Larry Millers book is that if the golfer learns to be in the proper position at the three static positions of the golf swing then the swing can't help but naturally flow through the ball down the target line correctly.

Sorry so long but I found the concepts in Larry Miller's book very practical.

randyg
04-13-2007, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> There are a lot more knowledgeable posters than myself on this forum and there are already have been some very informative posts made. For what it is worth here is a repeat of a post I made regarding this question in 2003.

Once again blending some golf instruction (Holographic Golf by Larry Miller) with pool I might offer the following:

Larry describes the three static positions of the golf swing as 1. the address (posture, stance and alignment),2 the top of the swing (at the point of trasition from backswing to forward swing and 3 the balanced finish.

In pool the three static positions might be, 1 the set at the cue ball before the final stroke, 2 the transition from backswing to forward stroke and 3 the freeze on the follow through at the end of the stroke.

It appears to me that the pause (or set) at the cue ball before executing the final stroke is very important. Certainly, there are some excellent players who do not have a perceptible set at the cue ball from practice strokes to final strokes. Having said that, it apears to me that this set in static position one allows the player to learn to "lock down the shot" and to learn to feel and experience the sensations required to sense the shot is on before they loose the arrow.

Certainly open to debate but the second static position would be the transition from backswing to forward stroke. For some, as elsewhere mentioned, Buddy Hall, Allison Fisher, etc. there is a perceptible pause at static position two. I might suggest you flip a quarter in the air several times and observe the transition from the top of the flip at the point where gravity takes over and the quarter begins to return to earth. I may be wrong, as I often am, but it appears to me that it is the smoothness of this transition that is critical to delivering a proper stroke. For some this will involve a perceptible pause, while for others it will not. However, the transition must be as silky smooth as the transition described above observing the quarter.

The third static position is the freeze on the follow through. The mantra slow back, accelerate through to a fluid finish might apply here. Sometimes this will be described as staying down on the shot. Again it appears that having a smooth stroke that flows to static position number three is a very critical objective.

Having said all of that, the point of Larry Millers book is that if the golfer learns to be in the proper position at the three static positions of the golf swing then the swing can't help but naturally flow through the ball down the target line correctly.

Sorry so long but I found the concepts in Larry Miller's book very practical. <hr /></blockquote>


Amazing....randyg

dr_dave
04-13-2007, 09:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sig:</font><hr> ... but it makes sense to transition to the different muscle group. <hr /></blockquote>
I don't know enough about sports physiology to know whether a smoother transition will result from a complete shutdown of one group before starting on the other, or from tapering the effort of one group into the other.

Does anyone have a reference on this topic? <hr /></blockquote>I think a past posting from Spiderman did a good job explaining how the muscle transition doesn't occur during the "pause" anyway (see below). Now, if a distinct pause is used, there will be a distinct muscle transition at the beginning of the final forward stroke. Now, whether or not this helps physiologically ... I don't know. Apparently, it does help some people. But this could be as much mental as physiological.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

Scott, You'll never convince Bob that if an object is in motion in one direction that it must reach a speed of zero in that direction before it can go the opposite direction. He will NEVER see this from your perspective!
Bob <hr /></blockquote>

Bob,

Actually, in this case Bob J was merely noting that acceleration and speed of the stick do not need to be zero simultaneously. He is absolutely correct here, and anyone who understands mechanics (physics, statics/dynamics) will agree.

Furthermore, if the real reason for a "pause" is to allow the "backswing" muscles to stop working before the "forward swing" muscles take over, then there is absolutely no need for a pause in MOTION, only a pause in acceleration.

When the "backswing" muscles relax, the stick is still moving backwards. There can be a finite period of relaxation before the "forward swing" muscles contract and apply force. AT THIS POINT, AND FOR A FINITE TIME AFTERWARD, THE STICK IS STILL MOVING BACKWARDS. It takes some finite time for the "forward swing" muscles to accelerate the stick to zero velocity. There will then be no finite time at zero velocity because the acceleration is continuous, so the stick progresses smoothly (semi-sinusoidally) from backward to forward velocity.

For this example, the "pause" was in acceleration, not velocity. This relaxation of backswing muscles and subsequent resumption of opposite force occured entirely before the backwards motion ended.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

fritzwalker
04-13-2007, 04:37 PM
FWIW -- I was in a rut for some time, not impoving. About 2 months ago I put a slight pause at the end of the backstroke. I got an immediate and significant improvement in accuracy.

walt8880
04-14-2007, 10:48 PM
Many, if not most players trained in snooker have a noticable pause on the backswing before the final stroke. I suspect that's where Allison developed this technique. If you have watched Pan Xiao Ting at all in her WPBA matches, she has the same pause before stroking the ball and she initially played snooker also.

I try it at times and sometimes it seems to help. I think if I could groove it as a natural part of my stroke rather than something I have to think about, it would help all the time.

Snapshot9
04-17-2007, 05:51 AM
Pauses at the backswing of the final stroke drive me a little crazy. I don't know how to say this delicately, it's like someone pausing right before they orgasm .... LOL

People that are sure of their accuracy are more concerned with pace of the stoke, and people concerned with accuracy will pause their stroke. This can be on a conscious or unconscious level.