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andy
04-15-2007, 10:29 PM
How do I 100% avoid the kissout on three cushion. Especially on naturals.

Deeman3
04-16-2007, 09:44 AM
I know many on here (Bob, others) are more qualified as I have only played a few weeks of 3 cushion in my career. But, in billiards, like pool, you can only avoid certain kisses by avoiding shooting them. In some natural kiss situations, you can change the paths through applied english, draw and follow but I don't think there is or ever will be a possibility of avoiding shots 100% that have kisses built into them.

Bob_Jewett
04-16-2007, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> How do I 100% avoid the kissout on three cushion. Especially on naturals. <hr /></blockquote>
Since even the best players in the world sometimes shoot into kisses, I think it is not possible to come up with a 100% system. However, if you study the shot a little longer, you may be able to find a different shot (perhaps harder to make) that does not have a kiss. If the no-kiss shot is a lot harder to make, you should shoot the one with a possible kiss, probably.

The main things that a player can do relative to kisses are:

1. Look for other shots, as above.

2. Learn where you are driving the 1st object ball.

3. Learn which ball will pass first when shooting a particular shot. This requires feel.

4. Learn how to change the hit and english (once you have 2 and 3 down) so that you avoid the kiss but still make the shot.

Let me give an example of shot choice. The red is sitting "big" near a corner. The opponent's cue ball is sitting diagonally opposite on the long cushion and a diamond from the other short rail. The cue ball is sitting perfectly for a five-cushion shot off the opponent's cue ball to the red, but there is a good chance of a kiss. If the shot doesn't kiss, it's automatic. The alternative is to shoot a 3-cushion shot off the OQB, but then you need both cushions in the corner where the red ball sits, and those could be very tough cushions. You should shoot the 5-railer and do your best to estimate and eliminate the chance of a kiss. Even the champions get kissed out on the 5-rail shots.

cushioncrawler
04-16-2007, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> How do I 100% avoid the kissout on three cushion. Especially on naturals. <hr /></blockquote>I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but if yor query includes avoiding a kiss on an OB frozen on a cushion, then (for english cushions) there is a little secret here. If the qball contacts such a frozen OB outside the 45dg point, then a kiss is allmost automatic. If the contact is inside the 45dg point, then a kiss is allmost impossible. This 45dg formula can be modyfyd a little if one uses spin on the qball, and/or if one hits the qball very hard. The 45dg point on the OB is found if u "draw" a line at 45dg to the cushion, the line starting from the center of the OB. So, in effect, there is a zone on the OB between the two 45dg points, and if u contact that zone from anywhere on the table, u will get a double-kiss off the OB -- and, if u dont, u wont. madMac.

Bob_Jewett
04-16-2007, 06:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but if yor query includes avoiding a kiss on an OB frozen on a cushion, then (for english cushions) there is a little secret here. .... <hr /></blockquote>
That would be avoiding a double kiss on a frozen ball. At 3-cushion billiards, that's usually not the problem to be avoided. I believe the OP was inquiring about shots like the (opening) break shot at 3C in which the red ball quite frequently hits either the cue ball or the second object ball before the shot is completed. I'm sure that Robert Byrne has at least one chapter on "ducking kisses" in either his Standard or Advanced book.

As for your 45-degree rule to avoid double kisses for object balls frozen to the cushion, I think I do not fully understand your rule of thumb, but to the extent that I do, I'm pretty sure it is false on pool and carom tables.

For a simple study of kiss-outs on bank shots on the pool table, see the 1999-07 article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

cushioncrawler
04-16-2007, 08:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but if yor query includes avoiding a kiss on an OB frozen on a cushion, then (for english cushions) there is a little secret here. .... <hr /></blockquote> That would be avoiding a double kiss on a frozen ball. At 3-cushion billiards, that's usually not the problem to be avoided. I believe the OP was inquiring about shots like the (opening) break shot at 3C in which the red ball quite frequently hits either the cue ball or the second object ball before the shot is completed. I'm sure that Robert Byrne has at least one chapter on "ducking kisses" in either his Standard or Advanced book.

As for your 45-degree rule to avoid double kisses for object balls frozen to the cushion, I think I do not fully understand your rule of thumb, but to the extent that I do, I'm pretty sure it is false on pool and carom tables.

For a simple study of kiss-outs on bank shots on the pool table, see the 1999-07 article at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html <hr /></blockquote>Yes, i am talking about an immediate (allmost) double kiss on the frozen OB. There are two 45dg contact points on a frozen OB -- if u pozition the qball say 1' from the OB such that the ball-center to ball-center line is at 45dg to the cushion, then a fullball contact on the OB shows u the 45dg contact point. This point iz fixed (2 points actually). If the qball (fired from anywhere on the table) ever touches the frozen OB at a point closer to the cushion than one of these two 45dg points, then a DK is allmost impossible. Touching the OB at a point further from the cushion, the DK is allmost unmissable. I imagine that pool cushions might suffer (enjoy) say 43dg spots. madMac.

Bob_Jewett
04-17-2007, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... If the qball (fired from anywhere on the table) ever touches the frozen OB at a point closer to the cushion than one of these two 45dg points, then a DK is allmost impossible. Touching the OB at a point further from the cushion, the DK is allmost unmissable. I imagine that pool cushions might suffer (enjoy) say 43dg spots. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>
Because the cushion compresses -- on pool tables the object ball may enter the cushion to around 10mm -- the angle is quite speed dependent. I believe that on a pool table a 30-degree (to the normal) angle has no kiss if shot at speed. This also depends on the approach angle, since if the cue ball is straight out from the object ball and you shoot a half-ball cut, the cue ball will move to the (better) side while the object ball is in the cushion.

andy
04-17-2007, 01:08 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions, I have tried all of them. I was sort of hoping somebody may have a guaranteed (magic) solution. There is somebody out there selling literature /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gifon this very subject, I refrain from purchasing his material as I feel it is just a scam. However: to Bob Jewett, Thanks for a most informative and massive site, it will take me months to plod thru it. Although pocket pool related, all the priciples apply to Caroms (3 cushion ) as well. Andy.

andy
04-17-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> How do I 100% avoid the kissout on three cushion. Especially on naturals. <hr /></blockquote>I might be barking up the wrong tree here, but if yor query includes avoiding a kiss on an OB frozen on a cushion, then (for english cushions) there is a little secret here. If the qball contacts such a frozen OB outside the 45dg point, then a kiss is allmost automatic. If the contact is inside the 45dg point, then a kiss is allmost impossible. This 45dg formula can be modyfyd a little if one uses spin on the qball, and/or if one hits the qball very hard. The 45dg point on the OB is found if u "draw" a line at 45dg to the cushion, the line starting from the center of the OB. So, in effect, there is a zone on the OB between the two 45dg points, and if u contact that zone from anywhere on the table, u will get a double-kiss off the OB -- and, if u dont, u wont. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

andy
04-17-2007, 01:30 PM
Hello addict: Not quite what I was referring to. Caroms is sometimes a game where ball are rapidly whizzing by each other while the shooter is praying te cue and 1st OB do not collide. However there is a shot when the 1st OB is frozen to the rail and no other shot presents itself. That is to deliberately doublekiss using running low engish off the 1st rail and send the ball around the table (hopefully) to complete the Carom by at least three rails. No math, just instinct.

Bob_Jewett
04-17-2007, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> ... There is somebody out there selling literature /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gifon this very subject, I refrain from purchasing his material as I feel it is just a scam. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It might not be a scam, but rather simply confusion on the part of the author. He may have some useful suggestions, but I'd be willing to bet that he has at least as much trouble as Raymond Ceulemans in getting out of kisses, and I've seen RC get kissed out on at least three shots.

The real question is whether the material will help you improve your game as far as kiss-outs go. That's a much harder question to answer. I'd suspect that if the author seems confused in his claims, he may well be confused and ineffective in his presentation.

andy
04-17-2007, 09:01 PM
I would like to have seen RC play, he is supposedly coming out with a reprint of his book. The only exceptional player I have seen is Piedrabuena, he was a pleasure to watch. He kissed out rarely. If anybody is interested, an exceptional billiard parlour exist in Milpitas ( 10 miles N of San Jose, CA) Handicap tournaments every Monday eve. $10.00 (3 cushion, that is)

Deeman3
04-18-2007, 08:24 AM
I've had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Ceulemans play on many occasions in Europe and watched him for several days in Belgium. He was a great player but also a true gentleman. Soft spoken but very kind to answer everyone's questions and spend time showing his knowledge. I might mention that 3 cushion players, in my experience, are much more thoughful and professional than most of us in the pocket game. It is a beautiful game. The group at Derby City were all wonderful to visit with and learn from.

Bob_Jewett
04-18-2007, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> I would like to have seen RC play, he is supposedly coming out with a reprint of his book. ... <hr /></blockquote>
If you can afford the time, Raymond Ceulemans will be one of the top players at the Sang Lee International Open this August in NYC. August 13-19 at the Carom Cafe in Flushing, NY (Long Island).

andy
04-20-2007, 10:48 PM
As a former pocket pool player I agree on the planning and thought involved in Caroms, it's almost intellectual and (maddening) It's also addicting. Where is Derby City? Andy

andy
04-20-2007, 11:00 PM
I should really consider Flushing, I have been most curious about that room, my old hunting grounds. I tried to get them to set up a active on line site to stimulate 3C interest among the younger set. The reply was we are a pool room, could not see the tremendous growth of interest that may occur. There is a Korean site that is very good and I had a lot of fun playing people from all over the world. But, simulation is not entirely real but amazing tricks can be done with the Cue ball.

071838
04-22-2007, 08:45 AM
You avoid kisses by avoiding the shots that present them. Here's one tip: if the first object ball blocks your cue ball's "view" of the corner, you can be just about certain there will be a kiss. Learning to recognize shots with built-in kisses, as well as alternatives to those shots, is strictly a matter of experience. But it's still a great, great game; stay with it. GF

Deeman3
04-23-2007, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andy:</font><hr> As a former pocket pool player I agree on the planning and thought involved in Caroms, it's almost intellectual and (maddening) It's also addicting. Where is Derby City? Andy <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Andy,

The Derby City Classic is held in January in Louisville, KY and is mostly a three event format with the biggest gambling side action of any tournament I know of. They do exibitions in 3 cushion which is very popular with everyone and Bob puts on a fantastic 14.1 contest each year. This year, the 3 cushion was moved over to the main building and was watched by many people. The players were a large mix of folks but all loved the game and were happy to share shots, experience and stories about the game.

If would probably not be worth the trip for you for the 3 cushion only but for one of the best weeks of your life, if you love pool, action and 3 cushion, it would be a great experience. </font color>

andy
04-29-2007, 09:13 AM
Good tip. Thanks.

wolfdancer
04-29-2007, 12:07 PM
Isn't Raymond now in his 60's?
And how would you rate Mr. C in his prime, against today's (more aggressive/imaginative?) players?
I had an old tape featuring Raymond and another good player, giving an exhibition...unfortunately it was a copy of a copy...poor video quality, but my first chance to see some great Billiards shots.
How good was Earl Whitehead?...I believe that someone told me...the best player in the Bay Area???

Bob_Jewett
04-29-2007, 10:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Isn't Raymond now in his 60's?
And how would you rate Mr. C in his prime, against today's (more aggressive/imaginative?) players?
I had an old tape featuring Raymond and another good player, giving an exhibition...unfortunately it was a copy of a copy...poor video quality, but my first chance to see some great Billiards shots.
How good was Earl Whitehead?...I believe that someone told me...the best player in the Bay Area??? <hr /></blockquote>
Raymond is in his 60's. He is still averages over 2 in a good match, so he is a threat to anyone. He no longer plays in the grueling tournaments, but he makes an exception for the Sang Lee Open come see him this August in NYC. Accu-Stats has lots of videos of Ceulemans.