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Chopstick
04-19-2007, 09:42 AM
I just got one of those OB 1 shafts. I got out a 10x jewelers eyepiece to check the tip and I discovered that the barber pole stripe on the ferrule is not really there. It is an optical illusion.

SPetty
04-19-2007, 01:59 PM
For those that might not know what Chopstick's talking about, here's a picture...

http://www.obcues.com/topright.jpg

trob
04-19-2007, 02:49 PM
So how do you like it? I bought one at the expo and love the way it hits!

ryushen21
04-19-2007, 03:25 PM
ryu loves his OB-1

trob
04-20-2007, 06:34 AM
A friend of mine shoots with a predator and now he's trying decide whether he wants the z shaft or an ob1. He likes the way the ob1 hits better but doesn't know if he likes the wierd ferrel. Do you even notice it? I don't..I'm guess I'm to focused on the shot.

Chopstick
04-20-2007, 07:47 AM
The first time I saw one I said to myself, I will never play with anything so ugly. I found myself wanting a thinner shaft and I was going to buy a predator. I read where Spetty said she liked hers so I bought one. I am very pleased with the performance of this shaft. I don't even notice the ferrule when I am shooting. It ain't so bad looking once you get used to it. I am starting to like it.

I wonder why he chose a laminated wood ferrule.

Sid_Vicious
04-20-2007, 09:07 AM
That appearance issue sure turns off some people, but yes, like you, that ferrule doesn't even seem to be apparent to me after beginning to play with this shaft. I have half 4-6 of them. Great shaft, and spectacular guy n Royce how he supports his product...sid

Deeman3
04-20-2007, 10:11 AM
I hate to break in here but I'll make that awful sound of Dick's and my bones creaking as we utter, "Do you really feel this shaft makes your game that much better?" You actually run more balls and get out better because of one of these shafts? You make balls you didn't couldn't before because of the advanced nature of this shaft? It will raise the level of the game, as titanium shafts have for golf?

I've hit them, they are fine but I just don't see a real difference in my 25 and 40 year old shafts. Maybe my game is just not developed enough to feel the difference. I can determine they do hit differently but don't see any other advantage, with the possble exception of their blending in with zebras a might better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Someone enlighten my old fart brain....

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I hate to break in here but I'll make that awful sound of Dick's and my bones creaking as we utter, "Do you really feel this shaft makes your game that much better?" You actually run more balls and get out better because of one of these shafts? You make balls you didn't couldn't before because of the advanced nature of this shaft? It will raise the level of the game, as titanium shafts have for golf?

I've hit them, they are fine but I just don't see a real difference in my 25 and 40 year old shafts. Maybe my game is just not developed enough to feel the difference. I can determine they do hit differently but don't see any other advantage, with the possble exception of their blending in with zebras a might better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Someone enlighten my old fart brain.... <hr /></blockquote>Are you implying that you don't aim differently when using English with a low-squirt shaft as compared to a high-squirt shaft? Or maybe all of your shafts have the same amount of squirt (i.e., your old shafts are also low-squirt)? Or maybe you have some Voodoo powder that magically makes all of your shafts hit perfectly straight for any amount of English?

What's the scoop?

Dave

Sid_Vicious
04-20-2007, 11:21 AM
My experience initially with these was that they produced a ton of action on the CB with normal effort, so I've gained in that I do not need to muscle many shots like before, and can actually take something off of most med-big stroke shots. Your style as I remember was a hybrid to the Meucci players, so that may be part of the reason you don't feel the ease of movement this shaft gives. jm2c...sid

ras314
04-20-2007, 11:50 AM
It may sound strange, but there are some people that don't aim. Or at least not by any describable system. I find it next to impossible to tell a high squirt from a low squirt shaft after using either one for a short time. Never paid any attention to BHE either.

I will immediately notice a difference in cue vibration or sound though. I actually prefer one piece cues.

ryushen21
04-20-2007, 11:51 AM
ok there Dee... will it make your game better?...no...because you can give amateur C player an OB-1 and it will not make him suddenly shoot A class. On the flipside, for someone like you who has been shooting with standard shafts since back in the day, it will end up being detrimental because your aiming system incorporates for squirt and deflection.

And there are two schools really to the whole performance shaft market. The old timers who have the traditional maple shaft and can shoot lights out with it just fine. You give them an OB-1 and they hate it. Robert Clark (i think that's his name) is a well known shooter around here, got an OB-1 and gave it back. At least last i saw him that's what he did. And it's simply because it is too much adjustment and change for them.

Then you have the younger generation who played with a traditional shaft at first and then got a predator and then some other. This is the group i belong too. Our issue that we are continually looking for ultimate performance with either minimal effort or better said, perceived minimal effort.

I still think that the bottom line is that, and i direct this toward the younger players like myself, rather than going out and buying expensive cues and shafts, you should spend your money on a good instructor who can help develop your stroke. I know i have. And i think that we can all agree that it is your stroke that makes your game.

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> It may sound strange, but there are some people that don't aim. Or at least not by any describable system. I find it next to impossible to tell a high squirt from a low squirt shaft after using either one for a short time. Never paid any attention to BHE either.<hr /></blockquote>Whether somebody thinks they aim or not, or whether they use BHE, FHE, or some natural or intuitive version, is not the issue. The issue is that one must aim differently if one changes to a shaft that has more or less squirt than one is used to. Some players can make this adjustment rather quickly. It sounds like you agree.

Regards,
Dave

Deeman3
04-20-2007, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>

<hr /></blockquote>Are you implying that you don't aim differently when using English with a low-squirt shaft as compared to a high-squirt shaft? <font color="blue"> No, I saying, not implying, that you make adjustments to your stroke depending on the shaft, table roll, speed, etc. I just don't understand that the ability to aim, for instance, with a little less compensation impacts people's games that much. </font color> Or maybe all of your shafts have the same amount of squirt (i.e., your old shafts are also low-squirt)? <font color="blue">I have both old and new age shafts. After a shot of two, I don't seem to have to consciencously adjust my aim as a planned thought process. </font color> Or maybe you have some Voodoo powder that magically makes all of your shafts hit perfectly straight for any amount of English? <font color="blue"> Dave, I have not taunted you nor said that my shafts do anything other than what your research indicates. I just made the observation that I don't beleive this is valuable information in an application of a game of pool. I don't believe this changes anyone's game enough, except in their head, to make any real difference. I may be wrong. </font color>

What's the scoop? <font color="blue"> That's the scoop, from my limited expertice point if view. To an important scientist, it may be foolish. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
04-20-2007, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> My experience initially with these was that they produced a ton of action on the CB with normal effort, so I've gained in that I do not need to muscle many shots like before, and can actually take something off of most med-big stroke shots. <font color="blue"> Sid, respectfully, I don't see how an OB 1 Kanoby or 314 shaft has the least little thing to do with english "taking". That is a function of your tip, it's condition and how low and how you stroke the ball with a very slight influence by the limberness of your shaft. </font color> Your style as I remember was a hybrid to the Meucci players, <font color="blue">Your memory must be failing in your old age as, while I own many Meuccis, I have not played with one in, perhaps, 25 years. I mostly use a schon on occasion with a 314 shaft. I use the 314 in bars so as not to get my schon shafts knocked over by drunks, but find it does not draw a ball or impart english one iota different from my schon. I use the same tips on all shafts, just for consistency. </font color> so that may be part of the reason you don't feel the ease of movement this shaft gives. jm2c...sid <font color="blue"> Maybe so, I just may not have been blessed with the higher level sensory skills of more enlightened and skillful players.

Anyone else on this thread get killer spin out of any of these shafts? I'd like lessons and will pay well for them if you can deliver that. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
04-20-2007, 12:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr> ok there Dee... will it make your game better?...no...because you can give amateur C player an OB-1 and it will not make him suddenly shoot A class. On the flipside, for someone like you who has been shooting with standard shafts since back in the day, it will end up being detrimental because your aiming system incorporates for squirt and deflection. <font color="blue"> Again, respectfully, again, no one is listening. Yes, I'm an old timer. I can use a new, low squirt, no sag at the knees shaft, without loss of shotmaking accuracy or processing higher level math to do so. I don't think they are detrimental to me, the Pope or anyone else. I just think their value to anyone is less than claimed here and in the ads. </font color>

And there are two schools really to the whole performance shaft market. The old timers who have the traditional maple shaft and can shoot lights out with it just fine. You give them an OB-1 and they hate it. Robert Clark (i think that's his name) is a well known shooter around here, got an OB-1 and gave it back. At least last i saw him that's what he did. And it's simply because it is too much adjustment and change for them. <font color="blue"> I have to disagree wiht Robert that it is a problem to compensate with the new shaft. Maybe the new fellule spooked him, he's a sensitive guy, like Sid, you know. </font color>

Then you have the younger generation who played with a traditional shaft at first and then got a predator and then some other. This is the group i belong too. Our issue that we are continually looking for ultimate performance with either minimal effort or better said, perceived minimal effort. <font color="blue"> That's perfectly fair, if it works for you and you make more from the purchase of the new shaft than you would, say, gambling it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. </font color>

I still think that the bottom line is that, and i direct this toward the younger players like myself, rather than going out and buying expensive cues and shafts, you should spend your money on a good instructor who can help develop your stroke. I know i have. And i think that we can all agree that it is your stroke that makes your game. <font color="blue"> Yes, indeed, whoopie, this is the best idea I've seen in a while. Instead of spending money on a new shaft, invest it in your real relevent application knowledge or spend it on a week at a pro tournament watching how the game is played, what the players do and learn. Ryushen, you are one of the few young men who pays attention these days. Most are more than happy to wait for their games to improve or pay for it in new technology. Unlike Golf, where technology has changed the face of the game, new tips, shafts and sticks have had a miniscule impact on the end result. We are not having to lengthen pool tables because the skill and technology are rendering 9 footers irrelevant, are we? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I hope we can shoot together again one day....never forget that one pocket shot I made for you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

ras314
04-20-2007, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Whether somebody thinks they aim or not, or whether they use BHE, FHE, or some natural or intuitive version, is not the issue. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, actually I suppose the issue should be the funny looking barber pole effect on the OB 1 ferrule? I haven't seen one but I don't like chalk on a ferrule because it can be distracting. Might have to try the ferrule a while before I would buy one.

I should have added I also try to avoid english for anything other than easy shots. I consider differences in table friction on swerve to be more important to me than shaft squirt. Might be an interesting subject to investigate? Older I get the more trouble I have adjusting to different tables.

Roy

Deeman3
04-20-2007, 02:09 PM
Oops! Was it something I said? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

ras314
04-20-2007, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Oops! Was it something I said? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Err...no, not all. Actually I was replying to Dr Dave and making a mild comment on threads that get highjacked. To which gaffe I have also contributed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

In fact, while I enjoy the more technical aspects of describing what goes on on a pool table, I am in much agreement with your comments on squirt. It is all interesting though, just wish I had a bit more talent...

Roy

SPetty
04-20-2007, 04:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trob:</font><hr>A friend of mine shoots with a predator and now he's trying decide whether he wants the z shaft or an ob1. He likes the way the ob1 hits better but doesn't know if he likes the weird ferrule. Do you even notice it? I don't.. I'm guess I'm too focused on the shot. <hr /></blockquote>I really like my OB-1 shafts. They have a much better "feel" than the Predator, and mine produce less squirt than my Predators. I believe that if you are accustomed to shooting with a Predator like I was, that you will instantly like the OB-1 much more than the Predator. I don't find the ferrule "weird" - I like how it looks. The ferrule difference does not bother me at all when shooting.

SPetty
04-20-2007, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> The first time I saw one I said to myself, I will never play with anything so ugly. I found myself wanting a thinner shaft and I was going to buy a predator. I read where SPetty said she liked hers so I bought one. I am very pleased with the performance of this shaft. I don't even notice the ferrule when I am shooting. It ain't so bad looking once you get used to it. I am starting to like it.

I wonder why he chose a laminated wood ferrule. <hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you like it, Chopstick. I'm not trying to push it, but I really like mine a whole lot. It pains me when folks choose a Predator before trying the OB-1, because as much as I liked my Predators, I like the OB-1 much more.

I just assumed the laminated wood ferrule was a radical way to help reduce the end mass... Whatever the reason, I think it's attractive!

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 05:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote trob:</font><hr>A friend of mine shoots with a predator and now he's trying decide whether he wants the z shaft or an ob1. He likes the way the ob1 hits better but doesn't know if he likes the weird ferrule. Do you even notice it? I don't.. I'm guess I'm too focused on the shot. <hr /></blockquote>I really like my OB-1 shafts. They have a much better "feel" than the Predator, and mine produce less squirt than my Predators. I believe that if you are accustomed to shooting with a Predator like I was, that you will instantly like the OB-1 much more than the Predator. I don't find the ferrule "weird" - I like how it looks. The ferrule difference does not bother me at all when shooting. <hr /></blockquote>What specific Predator are you comparing to? Z-shaft? 314? Other?

Dave

SPetty
04-20-2007, 05:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> What specific Predator are you comparing to? Z-shaft? 314? Other?<hr /></blockquote>Sorry - I guess nowadays that specification is necessary, although I'm not sure what Predator would fall into the "Other" category... I'm talking about the Predator 314 shaft.

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 05:20 PM
<font color="blue"><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr></font color> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>Are you implying that you don't aim differently when using English with a low-squirt shaft as compared to a high-squirt shaft? <font color="blue"> No, I saying, not implying, that you make adjustments to your stroke depending on the shaft, table roll, speed, etc. I just don't understand that the ability to aim, for instance, with a little less compensation impacts people's games that much. </font color> Or maybe all of your shafts have the same amount of squirt (i.e., your old shafts are also low-squirt)? <font color="blue">I have both old and new age shafts. After a shot of two, I don't seem to have to consciencously adjust my aim as a planned thought process. </font color> Or maybe you have some Voodoo powder that magically makes all of your shafts hit perfectly straight for any amount of English? <font color="blue"> Dave, I have not taunted you nor said that my shafts do anything other than what your research indicates. I just made the observation that I don't beleive this is valuable information in an application of a game of pool. I don't believe this changes anyone's game enough, except in their head, to make any real difference. I may be wrong. </font color>

What's the scoop? <font color="blue"> That's the scoop, from my limited expertice point if view. To an important scientist, it may be foolish. </font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>Deeman,

Thank you for your perspectives. I respect your opinion ... and I usually agree with pretty much everything you write. Obviously, we disagree a little here. You obviously adjust very well between shafts of different amounts of squirt. I don't think this is the case with everybody, but I might be wrong. I can adjust fairly well also, but I still prefer the lower-squirt shafts (after trying a range of shaft types). When I play with a high-squirt cue now, the amount I have to adjust my aim for a shot with English just bothers me, and I can't seem to do it totally intuitively like you. I prefer adjusting a little (or none in some cases) rather than a lot. Apparently, you seem equally comfortable with both levels of adjustment, and it adjustment seems to work intuitively for you. That's great ... in fact, I'm envious. If this works for you, that's all that matters ... and nothing I say or write on this topic will mean anything to you. No arguments there. I guess this is just a personal preference kind of thing. The world would be a boring place if there wasn't a diversity of ideas and perspectives.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> What specific Predator are you comparing to? Z-shaft? 314? Other?<hr /></blockquote>Sorry - I guess nowadays that specification is necessary, although I'm not sure what Predator would fall into the "Other" category... I'm talking about the Predator 314 shaft. <hr /></blockquote>The only "other" I know about is the Z2. I have used (and done tests with) both the Z and 314. The Z is much better. I don't know how the Z2 compares. I guess if it has a "2" in the name, it must be twice as good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
04-20-2007, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>I should have added I also try to avoid english for anything other than easy shots. I consider differences in table friction on swerve to be more important to me than shaft squirt. Might be an interesting subject to investigate? Older I get the more trouble I have adjusting to different tables.<hr /></blockquote>Yep, with English comes squirt, swerve, and throw ... and they can all vary a lot with conditions and types of shots. That's partly why this game is so tough. My last 12 articles in BD have dealt with throw. I have a future series planned on squirt. For shorter, faster shots, squirt can be the dominant factor. For longer shots, especially if the cue stick is elevated some, swerve is a dominant factor. I hope I haven't offended the anti-science crowd out there even more. I guess I deserve all of the abuse I get.

Regards,
Dave

ras314
04-20-2007, 07:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I hope I haven't offended the anti-science crowd out there even more. I guess I deserve all of the abuse I get.

<hr /></blockquote>

I don't see people as anti-science, just that many (most?)think other things are more important to a good pool player. I always want to know why things happen so guess I'm sort of in both camps. For sure I'm not a good player but I do try to have a little fun along the way /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Saw a young guy 2 years ago I wish you could watch play. He had more finess and control on the cb than I've ever seen, even in the pro matches. And, as the saying goes, miss was the name of a young lady for both players. Hell, I've been playing pool more years than this kid has been alive. He finally came over and asked me why I was shaking my head (they were playing $50 a rack) and I didn't realize I was doing that. Told him sorry, but I just couldn't see how he was doing what he was doing. I mean he was able to freeze the rock on one ball left before the nine using 3 rails like it was nothing. His comment? "I just hit 'em like it seems like I ought to".

I'm getting a little bored with squirt and throw topics though. Looking forward to rail rebound angles and swerve topics, especially over a range of typical table parameters. Also I wonder if cloth friction is really a constant, or even a linear function?

I do want to try the OB-1 shaft whenever I get a chance. Only thing I don't like about the 314 is the way the feel/vibration of an off center hit can change with speed.

Sig
04-20-2007, 10:34 PM
How is the longevity of the wood ferrule?

Rip
04-20-2007, 11:35 PM
Hey Ras,
I have a sack full of OB-1 shafts so when you get to town for the BCA you can test drive em'.
Rip

trob
04-21-2007, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote trob:</font><hr>A friend of mine shoots with a predator and now he's trying decide whether he wants the z shaft or an ob1. He likes the way the ob1 hits better but doesn't know if he likes the weird ferrule. Do you even notice it? I don't.. I'm guess I'm too focused on the shot. <hr /></blockquote>I really like my OB-1 shafts. They have a much better "feel" than the Predator, and mine produce less squirt than my Predators. I believe that if you are accustomed to shooting with a Predator like I was, that you will instantly like the OB-1 much more than the Predator. I don't find the ferrule "weird" - I like how it looks. The ferrule difference does not bother me at all when shooting. <hr /></blockquote>What specific Predator are you comparing to? Z-shaft? 314? Other?

Dave <hr /></blockquote>
314 is what he's playing with now

trob
04-21-2007, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sig:</font><hr> How is the longevity of the wood ferrule? <hr /></blockquote>

I asked that at the expo and if my local guy will be able to replace it. He said they should never need to be replaced.

Deeman3
04-23-2007, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><hr /></blockquote>Deeman,

Thank you for your perspectives. I respect your opinion ... and I usually agree with pretty much everything you write. Obviously, we disagree a little here. You obviously adjust very well between shafts of different amounts of squirt. I don't think this is the case with everybody, but I might be wrong. I can adjust fairly well also, but I still prefer the lower-squirt shafts (after trying a range of shaft types). When I play with a high-squirt cue now, the amount I have to adjust my aim for a shot with English just bothers me, and I can't seem to do it totally intuitively like you. I prefer adjusting a little (or none in some cases) rather than a lot. Apparently, you seem equally comfortable with both levels of adjustment, and it adjustment seems to work intuitively for you. That's great ... in fact, I'm envious. If this works for you, that's all that matters ... and nothing I say or write on this topic will mean anything to you. No arguments there. I guess this is just a personal preference kind of thing. The world would be a boring place if there wasn't a diversity of ideas and perspectives.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Dave,

You are right, it would be boreing if we all agreed. I am happy the low squirt shaft makes such a difference in other people's games. It just doesn't seem to matter to me in mine. If it were all up to me, not many new shafts would be sold so, in all, your attitude and situation is much better for the game, as well as the cue makers.

I still am waiting to hear from Sid and any others tell me how this shaft helps you draw the ball so much better! Something like that, in my opinion, would be a real boon to the game as so many seem to have such trouble with this as well as the additional side spin they impart.

I'd still like to hear some feedback on that from the experts.

</font color>

dr_dave
04-23-2007, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>I still am waiting to hear from Sid and any others tell me how this shaft helps you draw the ball so much better! Something like that, in my opinion, would be a real boon to the game as so many seem to have such trouble with this as well as the additional side spin they impart.

I'd still like to hear some feedback on that from the experts.<hr /></blockquote>From a physics perspective, whether a shaft is low-squirt or not should not affect the amount of English or draw one can achieve. The only physically significant factors here are cue stick momentum (the more speed for a given mass, the better), cue tip properties (the more friction the better), and tip offset (the farther you can hit away from center without miscue, the better).

Now, if the low-squirt cue happens to have a better tip on it (with good texture, shape, and chalk-holding ability) ... that might explain the better action.

From a psychological perspective, if a fancy low-squirt cue gives somebody lots of confidence, then the person's stroke and accuracy might improve resulting in better action.

Regards,
Dave

ras314
04-23-2007, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>From a physics perspective, whether a shaft is low-squirt or not should not affect the amount of English or draw one can achieve. The only physically significant factors here are cue stick momentum (the more speed for a given mass, the better), cue tip properties (the more friction the better), and tip offset (the farther you can hit away from center without miscue, the better).
<hr /></blockquote>

Something that always bothers me a bit is the possibility that the cue tip may not be moving in a straight line at and during contact. In fact if you are using the classic pendulum stroke the tip's path almost has to be bending down. Appears to me this gives more spin on the cb. Might the low mass tip bending away from the cb also have some effect?

Actually I can't get more spin with a predator shaft than any other, but suspect a better stroke might.

Roy

dr_dave
04-23-2007, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>From a physics perspective, whether a shaft is low-squirt or not should not affect the amount of English or draw one can achieve. The only physically significant factors here are cue stick momentum (the more speed for a given mass, the better), cue tip properties (the more friction the better), and tip offset (the farther you can hit away from center without miscue, the better).<hr /></blockquote>Something that always bothers me a bit is the possibility that the cue tip may not be moving in a straight line at and during contact. In fact if you are using the classic pendulum stroke the tip's path almost has to be bending down.<hr /></blockquote>Not true. If you are executing the pendulum stroke properly, where the forearm is perpendicular to the stick at impact with the cue ball, the tip will be heading perfectly straight at impact.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>Appears to me this gives more spin on the cb.<hr /></blockquote>If the tip were moving down some at impact, the effective offset would be effectively larger because the line of action would be further away from the ball center (see my July '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf) for illustrations). Because the tip offset would be slightly larger, the amount of draw would be slightly more.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>Might the low mass tip bending away from the cb also have some effect?<hr /></blockquote>This might affect the effective tip offset line of action a small amount, but the impact forces along the stick direction are significantly larger than the sideways squirt forces.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>Actually I can't get more spin with a predator shaft than any other, but suspect a better stroke might.<hr /></blockquote>That is my experience as well.

Regards,
Dave

ras314
04-23-2007, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Not true. If you are executing the pendulum stroke properly, where the forearm is perpendicular to the stick at impact with the cue ball, the tip will be heading perfectly straight at impact.

<hr /></blockquote>



Only if the cue is at a near perfect 90 deg angle from the forarm. I find I will hop the cb if the hit is too soon, ie when the forearm rotrating towards perpendicular. Since I am fairly confident I am not hitting the cloth first I assume this is because the tip has a vertical upwards velocity component for that case. This also assumes the cue is forced to rotate about the bridge point.

If the hit is late the tip will be rotating down. It is quite possible to do this deliberatly by moving your grip forward on the handle. Or, as I've heard some old timers claim, with the wrist action.

These effects would be reduced the shorter the bridge is, of course.

edited slightly, you did describe the relationship of cue and forearm for the tip velocity to be straight at impact.

Roy

wolfdancer
04-23-2007, 11:58 AM
My observations on the new equipment...
I have a Predator cue with two 314 shafts....they hit like night and day...one has a LePro tip, the other an Everest tip.
I gave away my OB1 shaft....good shaft, but didn't fit my "eye" the new owner is playing "lights out" with it.
I think the biggest equipment advance that has been made to improve stroking skills....was the introduction of "fast" clothe....now even wimmen folk can draw the ball.
That said though....if that new cue with the Budweiser label, and pictures of naked ladies on it, makes you feel like you play better....go for it.
Remember it ain't how others see you play...it's how you see yourself....

web page (http://www.treachercollins.org/images/cat75.jpeg)

wolfdancer
04-23-2007, 12:04 PM
I'd still like to hear some feedback on that from the experts.

Well, since you asked.....
Not everybody can be a master shaft-switcher....but some folks know how to set a guy up...."bait" him....and that would make you a ....

Deeman3
04-23-2007, 12:07 PM
Dave,

My thoughts exactly.

wolfdancer
04-23-2007, 12:10 PM
Dr Dave, conducting my own unscientific tests....I estimate i get twice the draw from my 314 with an Everest tip, then my 314 with a LePro.
And the shaft with the LePro, had an Everest tip on it before.
My other learned observation....never take you cue in for repairs to a deaf repair guy.

Deeman3
04-23-2007, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd still like to hear some feedback on that from the experts.

Well, since you asked.....
Not everybody can be a master shaft-switcher....but some folks know how to set a guy up...."bait" him....and that would make you a .... <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> ....a guy who has questionable moral character and who might....LOL

A Master Shaft Switcher? Well, I've been called worse by the liberal press... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do seem to think that even of these new shafts do help people, it is mostly, like Dave suggested in his last sentence, confidence. It is funny how people will endow these toys with magical properties that even their inventor didn't claim (Sid, jumped onthis one right away). I don't beleive I ever made the actualy claim that DeeMan chalk would grab better than Masters, I just showed someone how to draw a ball, while using the chalk and their assumption was it was the chalk. If they had had a confident draw stroke and were not fearful of miscuing, they would have just said, "You are crazy!" However, despite yours and others claims, I am not......yet... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Say, while we're talking about science, I know, when the cue ball hits another ball, vibrations ensue. Now, we know the moon is still vibrating from asteroids and such hitting it hundreds of thousands of years ago. Would we not, by comparison, think that those residual ressonance occilations stay wiht that ball for a while. Is this, possibly, the reason the ball sometimes seems to roll a little further than other times? Should not someone come up with a vibration attachemnt for the cue ball to reduce this effect? Will congress not act? If not, does this not prove the existence of a supreme being?

I just gave four guys another excuse for scratching!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif</font color>

dr_dave
04-23-2007, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr Dave, conducting my own unscientific tests....I estimate i get twice the draw from my 314 with an Everest tip, then my 314 with a LePro.
And the shaft with the LePro, had an Everest tip on it before.
My other learned observation....never take you cue in for repairs to a deaf repair guy. <hr /></blockquote>Yep. The tip can make a difference, and the repair guy must be able to commuciate.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
04-23-2007, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Dave,

My thoughts exactly.<hr /></blockquote>You see! We do agree every once in a while. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dave

Rod
04-23-2007, 10:07 PM
"I just don't understand that the ability to aim, for instance, with a little less compensation impacts people's games that much."

Well I'm all in Dee, cause, I don't get it either. Of course I don't see what others see either, or at least what they think they see. By the same token others don't feel what I feel during the stroke either.

Compensation, if any, in my aim depends on stroke used and speed of stroke when using english. Most always I aim the exact angle for a straight forward shot. Sometimes I may start off by aiming a wee bit fat or thin, knowing swerve, at the right speed, will make contact at the exact angle. If I miss speed a bit the ball probably still goes but in the wrong part of the pocket. If I'm way off on speed then I could miss the ball.

My aim isn't dependent on the shaft because I aim them all the same. I can't believe the shaft is anywhere near the factor (in aim) as ones ability to understand and execute the preplanned stroke.

On occasion several years back I played with different predator shafts/cues.(a friends or a good customer) I always aimed exactly the same, my cue or their cue. The low squirt guys may have a hard time coming to grip with this. However if I recall correctly, low/side at slower speeds, at a distance, may have swerved a bit more. As I recall I may have had to compensate a tiny bit more than with my cue.

My vote goes to execution with a tip of the hat to aim compensation. That is, we're talking about std vs low squirt shafts.

Rod

Deeman3
04-24-2007, 07:29 AM
Rod,

Maybe you and I just didn't spend enough time in school, wasting our time in pool halls instead... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
04-24-2007, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Rod,

Maybe you and I just didn't spend enough time in school, wasting our time in pool halls instead... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think thats a distinct possibility. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Sid_Vicious
04-24-2007, 11:42 AM
You jest, but in reality, most people are up to the "being taught threshold" relatively quick, the then it is just the time and experience which will make "their game." sid

Rod
04-24-2007, 01:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> You jest, but in reality, most people are up to the "being taught threshold" relatively quick, the then it is just the time and experience which will make "their game." sid <hr /></blockquote>

Eh? Not sure I follow exactly Sid. I think most everyone is up to being taught something. Explain please.

Rod

Deeman3
04-27-2007, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> You jest, but in reality, most people are up to the "being taught threshold" relatively quick, the then it is just the time and experience which will make "their game." sid <hr /></blockquote>

Eh? Not sure I follow exactly Sid. I think most everyone is up to being taught something. Explain please.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Rod,

Liberals do not come back and explain. They just leave it hanging in the air. I love Sid, not in a domestic partner sense, but I can't ever get clarificaion on his points. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gifGood Luck..

Now Wolfdancer will B***h slap me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

DickLeonard
04-27-2007, 08:29 AM
Deeman one down and three to go. I am still thinking how the hell did Deeman know I would be scratching my head.####

DickLeonard
04-27-2007, 08:37 AM
Rod I agree whole heartly. ####
I am begining to think Calvin Coolidge had it right. If I can keep it short I can answer more posts.

Chopstick
04-27-2007, 10:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I hate to break in here but I'll make that awful sound of Dick's and my bones creaking as we utter, "Do you really feel this shaft makes your game that much better?" You actually run more balls and get out better because of one of these shafts? You make balls you didn't couldn't before because of the advanced nature of this shaft? It will raise the level of the game, as titanium shafts have for golf? <font color="blue">Who uses titanium shafts? I've seen them. I always thought they were crap. My driver shaft is a graphite low torque Fujikura Speeder. A real one. Not that knock off crap. It does not hit the ball farther yhan the original but I do feel like I can deliver a more consistent pattern with it. </font color>

I've hit them, they are fine but I just don't see a real difference in my 25 and 40 year old shafts. Maybe my game is just not developed enough to feel the difference. I can determine they do hit differently but don't see any other advantage, with the possble exception of their blending in with zebras a might better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Someone enlighten my old fart brain.... <hr /></blockquote>

The problem is that I can't buy any 40 year old shafts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the idea of a laminated shaft. I think that with laminated shaft the performance/feel is replaceable. If something happens to it I can just get another one and It will be the same. That's the theory anyway. I don't care about the deflection thing because I naturally adjust to what I am playing with without noticing. I bought the shaft because people said they hit good. I had three Predators and I don't like the way they hit.

I found a butt that I like and I didn't like the shaft. I wanted something thinner with a better taper. Of course I found a flaw in the finish on the butt that bugged me so I went to work on it with some sand paper. I went too far and messed up the stain. Seems like I'm not happy with a cue until I have fiddled with it until it looks like Willie Nelson's guitar. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I like the way the OB1 plays. I jumped a ball with it the other day playing Spiderman. It was only a partial ball jump but I couldn't even do that much with a Predator.

wolfdancer
04-27-2007, 11:25 AM
I watch Shell's "Wonderful world of Golf" every so often on the Golf Channel....a great drive is around 275, but the avg is 250-260....and long irons, even woods then to the green on par 4's.
No question that the equipment has changed the game....
In pool, I think the layered tips help one's game more then the laminated shafts....but the #1 improvement is the fast, napless cloth.....
that reminds me, it's time to take my nap....

bowsermann
05-10-2007, 12:26 PM
I recently brought an OB1 and I love it.Same hit every shot except when I miscue which I did a lot with the original tip.I took it to the local billiards repair shop and said chop it off and stick on a Morri Mediun tip.Now I'm really happy with it.Well I brought a Predator Sneaky Pete yesterday with the Z shaft on it and this too I love.I think the OB1 will be better for 8 Ball and the Predator Z for 9 Ball.The Z really gets the cue where you want it without much effort.The OB1 I have to stroke a little harder with.Both are excellent picks for a replacement shaft IMO.Oh BTW I didn't even notice the ferrule on the OB1 from the first time I shot with it.

Sig
05-12-2007, 09:33 PM
By the way, how long has OB-1 been around?

trob
05-13-2007, 04:29 AM
I think a little more then a year.

cushioncrawler
05-13-2007, 04:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I watch Shell's "Wonderful world of Golf" every so often on the Golf Channel.... a great drive is around 275, but the avg is 250-260....and long irons, even woods then to the green on par 4's. No question that the equipment has changed the game.... In pool, I think the layered tips help one's game more then the laminated shafts....but the #1 improvement is the fast, napless cloth..... that reminds me, it's time to take my nap.... <hr /></blockquote>Woolfy -- I think i dont agree. In english billiards, it has been said that the worst combination of cushion-speed and bed-speed is a slow cushion and a fast bed. But, u reckon that what u have is $hit hot. How kum ?????

By the way. How kum u guys are allwayz complaining about the slowness of thosed damned K55 (or whatever) cushions. They sound like rubbish. Rubbish cushions, rubbish kraps, and now ultra-fast (rubbish) bedcloths. Beats me. madMac.