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View Full Version : maximum english and tips of english on cueball



lewcamp
04-21-2007, 03:41 AM
I was just wondering about how far out on the cueball do you have to cue,(expressed in tips of english), do you have to go to get the maximum amount of spin on the cueball. It seems like i read several years ago that you dont need to go much outside the vertical axis to get the maximum desired english, but it does seem to me like you get more on the cueball the farther out you go from the vertical axis.
Just curious and thought some of you billiard scientists could give me some insight on this.

pooltchr
04-21-2007, 06:49 AM
I'm far from a billiard scientist, but I can tell you as a general rule, you can move away from center 1/2 way to the outer edge with your contact point on the cue ball and still get a solid hit without mis-cue. And the farther from center you go, the more spin is applied to the cue ball.
If you want formulas and percentages, I will defer to Dr Dave.
Steve

dr_dave
04-21-2007, 07:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> I was just wondering about how far out on the cueball do you have to cue,(expressed in tips of english), do you have to go to get the maximum amount of spin on the cueball. It seems like i read several years ago that you dont need to go much outside the vertical axis to get the maximum desired english, but it does seem to me like you get more on the cueball the farther out you go from the vertical axis.
Just curious and thought some of you billiard scientists could give me some insight on this.<hr /></blockquote>Your subject line is pretty much the exact title of my July '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2006/july06.pdf). Check it out. It has some good illustrations explaining both maximum tip offset and how it relates to "tips of English."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
04-21-2007, 08:00 AM
FYI, for more information, see the pertinent links under "English" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave

Jal
04-21-2007, 01:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr>...It seems like i read several years ago that you dont need to go much outside the vertical axis to get the maximum desired english, but it does seem to me like you get more on the cueball the farther out you go from the vertical axis... <hr /></blockquote>What pool teacher and Dr. Dave said. You may have read that not going far from the vertical axis is desirable, though that can be a contentious matter.

Switching to the horizontal axis, there are a couple of exceptions to "more offset equals more action".

If you want the greatest speed and topspin on the cueball after it reaches natural roll, you should hit at about 1/2 of maximum offset, ie, about 1/4 of the radius above center. This assumes that the cueball will reach natural roll before colliding with something. (From Ron Shepard's "Amateur Physics for the Amateur Pool Player")

If the object ball is far from the cueball, you might be able to get more draw by hitting closer to center (not as far down), depending on how much stick speed you're willing and able to generate. If you can produce any stick speed, practically speaking, without sacrificing accuracy, then hitting as low as possible does get you the most draw.

Jim

Bob_Jewett
04-22-2007, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote lewcamp:</font><hr> ... It seems like i read several years ago that you dont need to go much outside the vertical axis to get the maximum desired english, but it does seem to me like you get more on the cueball the farther out you go from the vertical axis. ... <hr /></blockquote>
If you can remember where you read this, it would be interesting to see what the author was talking about. Maybe he was saying that you don't need too much spin most of the time, and you are better off staying as close to the center of the ball as possible. I think most here would agree with that, generally.

Derek
04-27-2007, 08:55 AM
I've been relearning my stroke after what I felt was stagnation as a level 7 in APA. I think whatever natural talent I possessed had finally "plateaued" and I needed to start "learning" the game to really get up into the next level. I've been eating up info and watching videos of matches, and I wonder if maximum english is even necessary. Honestly, it's amazing what pros and great players can apply to the cue ball with a nice, smooth steady stroke and make it look effortless. As I try more and more to mimic their techniques, I find myself moving the cue with a lot more fluidity than ever before. I used to concern myself with how much juice I could get on the cue based on the position of the cue-tip, but I'm finding that just a tip or tip-and-a-half of movement with a smooth stroke and a good follow-through will get the cue going most places on the table.

Personally, I think those that can apply "maximum" english are those blessed with great natural talent. I think the rest of us have to be more meticulous in our approach, maybe using half of that maximum english when necessary. (That's not going to be an entirely true statement, but it's probably not too far off).

Deeman3
04-27-2007, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> I've been relearning my stroke after what I felt was stagnation as a level 7 in APA. I think whatever natural talent I possessed had finally "plateaued" and I needed to start "learning" the game to really get up into the next level. I've been eating up info and watching videos of matches, and I wonder if maximum english is even necessary. Honestly, it's amazing what pros and great players can apply to the cue ball with a nice, smooth steady stroke and make it look effortless. As I try more and more to mimic their techniques, I find myself moving the cue with a lot more fluidity than ever before. I used to concern myself with how much juice I could get on the cue based on the position of the cue-tip, but I'm finding that just a tip or tip-and-a-half of movement with a smooth stroke and a good follow-through will get the cue going most places on the table.

Personally, I think those that can apply "maximum" english are those blessed with great natural talent. I think the rest of us have to be more meticulous in our approach, maybe using half of that maximum english when necessary. (That's not going to be an entirely true statement, but it's probably not too far off). <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Derek,

In my opinion, you must learn your comfort zone in applying english, follow or draw, then give yourself a little margin for error. There will be times when you have to give a shot all you have in terms of maximum spin which seems to be different for many of us. If you are doing this many times in a match, for instance, you need to manage your position game a little better or understand your limits a little more. </font color>

bsmutz
04-27-2007, 10:00 AM
Good post, Derek. I've gotten to the point where I am confident in my shot making and am working much harder on cue ball control. I have a fairly new tip that gives me more action than what I've been used to. When I stroke the ball hard like I used to have to do and it's a good stroke, I end up moving much farther than I want to. It's a whole new ball game. I'm paying a lot more attention to the quality of the stroke as a result.

BigRigTom
04-27-2007, 12:53 PM
Derek!
I too am an APA skill level 7...at least in Southern California....I believe from what I have seen that on the East Coast I would probably be a fair level 5!

To the point....
I learned to play pool in bars in Chicago and I liked to hit the cue ball hard. I thought I was more accurate if I hit the ball firm to hard, I have learned otherwise now. I rarely used english (mostly because I didn't know how) but after I started getting serious about playing in the APA I began to study like you described, reading, watching the pros, picking the brains of all the really good players I met in league matches and researching all the above on line while I'm not otherwise busy at work.
Long story short....You rarely need a LOT of english in a game if you play smart position. If you have to use maximum english you should be looking at other aspects of your game.
The table is only 9' in pool and there are only 4 rails. You can hit several balls and all 4 rails without using maximum english so you should NOT need it too often.

dr_dave
04-27-2007, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>Long story short....You rarely need a LOT of english in a game if you play smart position. If you have to use maximum english you should be looking at other aspects of your game.<hr /></blockquote>Good summary! Nobody is perfect at compensating for squirt, swerve, and throw in all situations, so English should be used only when it is necessary; and even then, one should use only as much English as the shot requires (not more).

Regards,
Dave

Scott Lee
04-28-2007, 09:28 PM
Adding to Dr. Dave's post...The actual contact point between the tip and the CB is only 2mm or 1/8" (this happens to be the exact same size as the red circle on a red circle CB). So when you consider that it's possible to hit perhaps 6+ circles off of the vertical or horizontal axis of the CB, in any direction, you can teach yourself that even just one circle off axis will provide some spin. Farther out will indeed produce more spin (with the possible exception of topspin), but requires a VERY accurate, repeatable stroke, and the ability to judge squirt and deflection (based on distance between CB &amp; OB, and speed of stroke).

Scott Lee