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Derek
05-10-2007, 04:38 PM
As I have spent this last calendar year refining, perhaps, re-learning my stroke, I have come to the conclusion that I was never putting enough follow through on my strokes. I've been watching a lot of pro men's matches on TV and some recent eBay purchases, and it is very clear that every one of those great players makes sure they follow through on that stroke. Some of them have slight quirks, and those quirks will cause misses, but the follow through stroke seems almost identical from player to player.

I am humbled. I'm amazed that I even made it up to a level 7 in APA to know that I have never followed through on the ball like I should have. Don't get me wrong, I would follow through, but not really FOLLOW THROUGH. Follow? It's amazing on how developing a more consistent follow through is starting to broaden the range of shots I can produce.

I think this is definitely something players should look at who can't quite take it to the next level. It's incredible on what a difference it makes -- obviously, a straight stroke is also needed to make use of the follow through.

Bob_Jewett
05-10-2007, 07:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Derek:</font><hr> ... I've been watching a lot of pro men's matches on TV and some recent eBay purchases, and it is very clear that every one of those great players makes sure they follow through on that stroke. Some of them have slight quirks, ... <hr /></blockquote>
Are there some in particular who are the best to watch/absorb?

Derek
05-10-2007, 11:19 PM
Hmmm. Still soaking in a lot of it and haven't watched everything I have yet. I've been watching the 2006 World 9-Ball Championship and then some of the 2006 US 9-Ball Open on TV. I have some Accu-Stats 2006 Derby City DVD's, but haven't got to them yet. Most of it is 9-ball, but one of the DVD's is the one pocket finals and I'm kind of excited about that one (since I have never really seen one pocket played).

Mika Immonen. I like his game a lot, one of my favorites.

Ralf Souquet. Nick Van Den Berg. Steve Davis. (Boy, that's a lot of Europeans).

That kid, Chia-Ching Wu, is fairly amazing.

Corey Deuel, at times. Honestly, I don't have a lot of favorite American players yet just because of the matches I have on DVD so far. Strickland will probably not make my list. Rodney Morris sometimes, but he seems to shoot a little faster than I like.

Oddly, I don't find Efren's stroke all that appealing sometimes. Obviously, he's one of the best, but his stroke seems peculiar at times.

cushioncrawler
05-11-2007, 02:20 AM
Derek -- It appears that a long follow-throo is very popular. But, i reckon that zero follow would improov some players. And, i have been interested to see how many oldendayz players had a very short follow-throo. Some even gushed, in their books, about how good a long follow woz, or how it woz essential to screwing back, etc etc. But, the good old black n white (silent) films dont lie, the players lied -- actions speak louder than words.

I can play all but the strongest shots with zero follow-throo, ie the qtip wouldnt pass past the "back" of the qball, u know what i mean. Its an accurate and deceptively powerfull stroke. It might fix a few problems for some players. madMac.

Puck
05-11-2007, 04:31 AM
Without hitting YouTube, I would say that Bustamante has a great follow through. His stroke from set to finish is a work of art.

I would also agree that Reyes' follow through and technique is really hard to learn, if nothing else because he plays so much by feel. I don't think I would recommend anyone to copy his form.

There are a lot of the women (Allison, Jeanette) that have good and methodical follow throughs. Guys could learn a lot from them about moving the cueball effectively with less force and effort. Most of the Asian players I've seen have efficient strokes as well.

This year I was bumped up to an SL7, and I've been working on my stroke since I've had a break in tournament play. I've been able to improve my form a lot...and I know what you mean about getting to an SL7 with a stroke that was somewhat mediocre. It takes too much effort to build up momentum and then hold up after the hit. With a good follow through you can get more action on the cueball with less effort. The best way I've heard it described is to just throw the cue through the cueball. Just let it follow through to wherever it goes.

I've also been trying to move my bridge from 10" back to 12-14". (I've been waiting 'til a break in tournament play to try this.) I've found that for myself, I can get great action on the cueball with a longer more fluid stroke. I just need to make sure that my forearm is perpendicular to the cue on impact. I've been fine tuning it during practice and regular session matches, so I'll be comfortable and ready for more tournament play. :-)

cushioncrawler
05-11-2007, 04:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Puck:</font><hr> ......I've also been trying to move my bridge from 10" back to 12-14". (I've been waiting 'til a break in tournament play to try this.) I've found that for myself, I can get great action on the cueball with a longer more fluid stroke. I just need to make sure that my forearm is perpendicular to the cue on impact. I've been fine tuning it during practice and regular session matches, so I'll be comfortable and ready for more tournament play. :-)<hr /></blockquote> Puck -- On a 12' table, i played great english billiards uzing a 5" bridge. I kood play very powerfull shots. It felt funny, at times i allmost fouled koz my bridge fingers allmost touched the qball. Worth a try. madMac.

scaramouche
05-11-2007, 05:57 AM
Mark Selby, an unranked player, got to the final of the 2007 World Snooker Championship. He attributed his improvement to changing his stroke, particularly his bridge.

2007 World Championship
Interview Mark Selby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-LdIL_6DI

Shaun Murphy vs Mark Selby
Frame 32
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CnpLUUn5hOc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=boPbzhR-Ycg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dzqj4Oi2UpQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IWau_CTUJM4

bowsermann
05-11-2007, 11:30 AM
Alison Fisher has one of the best follow thru's that I've seen.Also her stance is the same every time.She walks to the table,sets herself and goes down the same every time.I've noticed that when breaking if you don't have an awsome follow thru nothing usually falls and the ball's stay clustered.Now I break with a Lightning Bolt (12OZ's) so follow thru is definitly needed to pocket as well as spead the balls.9 Ball or 8 Ball.Doesn't matter.Shooting I also follow thru every time.When I don't the outcome isn't what I expect.

Puck
05-11-2007, 11:49 AM
Thanx for the links. :-) I watched the interview and some play; I'll probably finish the rest after work.

Naturally a lot of it is personal preference. I think I had a shorter bridge early on because I was worried about miscuing, or hitting the cueball off center. Now that I have a lot more confidence in my stroke I swing more freely, even on shots where I only have 1/2 a pocket to shoot at. Although I'll still use short bridges for very soft shots, or shots where I'm using swerve.

cushioncrawler
05-11-2007, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote scaramouche:</font><hr> Mark Selby, an unranked player, got to the final of the 2007 World Snooker Championship. He attributed his improvement to changing his stroke, particularly his bridge..... <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the links. I see that he haz a billiards bridge (like mine), ie he holds his fist quite high, and his first finger sort of acts like a highish prop, with a sort of funny bend (just like i do). He makes a genuine Vee, not one of those ugly poofta sort of vees where the whole hand and palm and finger sort of spread out flat on the table, and where the cue sort of slides in a half-baked flabby soft vee (gee i hate the look of that).

He only contacts the qball ok (especially for screw) koz he holds the qbutt higher (for every shot) than any other snooker player i have seen (normally a fault that wouldnt last 60 seconds if he went to any snooker coach in Ozz).

And, he haz a sort of pumping action, ie not 100% pendulum, and the opposite of Higgins action. Higgins slides the cue throo horizontally, ie hiz elbow goze up (a "reverse-pump") as he hits the ball, ie the opposite of Selby's "pumpulum" action. So, we had the final of the world 2007 snooker, and not a pendulum to be seen anywhere.

And, Selby's cue (qtip) allways goze up throo the qball, or at least after the contact. I havent seen that sort of thing since i last looked in the mirror.

Getting back to the length of the bridge, it certainly is shortish compared to others, but is still longer than Steve Davis's bridge. And, Selby's follow throo is very very large. Selby sez that he shortened hiz bridge, but didnt shorten hiz backswing, and i think he said that he now gets more power (perhaps he meant more accurate power). madMac.

scaramouche
05-12-2007, 06:11 AM
Mark Selby at play - 2007 World Snooker Championship - Semi and Final

Shaun Murphy vs Mark Selby
Frame 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDuIcIqhybo
Frame 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVeixb-75UA
Frame 13
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_4BTrupkiKQ
Frame 23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk22pcmrzk0
Frame 25
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-QWnjzmtHS4
Frame 26
http://youtube.com/watch?v=50sbdKuj5HE
Frame 27
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jxim8_rH99s
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C8ebecaoreU
Frame 28
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U0yv15X1lS8
Frame 29
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vWC52AHg2rI
Frame 30
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jAJ6jS6KrsU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mssghXyP5Jo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PEb7-ZAzeFw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=61VUdGPk8R8
Frame 31
http://youtube.com/watch?v=C3PnsXf3pAA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=drGWq5MQG2g
Frame 32
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CnpLUUn5hOc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=boPbzhR-Ycg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dzqj4Oi2UpQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IWau_CTUJM4
Frame 33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFG7X3sO9J8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Afa_1adskM
Interview Mark Selby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD-LdIL_6DI

John Higgins vs Mark Selby Final
Frame 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRhBHwIdJpg
Frame 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y8lrzOCJ1k
Frame 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFd-EwYHhHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=368IEP9Ta-s
Frame 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC_G3BAzAO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J30-Nuk8nbo
Recap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_GLZWBQH6Y
Frame 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzcUjuonfks
Frame 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA4U-gU3T4g
Frame 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg_w7dtW2Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gWZT5qP2GQ
Frame 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYdFOIhLNY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpOLU1bprZQ
Frame 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI7BrtaYegw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv__ZXQZXKI
Frame 14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cyfHePp38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba_yIHisKcg&amp;mode=related&amp;search=
Frame 15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG0y9mIihDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh4deLxViGI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy5uQu4qMzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-PhN9KwGw8
Frame 16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SMUJmW-jaQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln_cW96_E5k
Recap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUSXsAWlcEA
Frame 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPd7Tgs19T4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4nLAfuR2Ms
Frame 18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYFeDjRwCPk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNoo8ib7qKs
Frame 19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0lPfWPq10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vgTv-bZhQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgrXtwNkbyU
Frame 20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGOj_cBDNg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh08E2CrKjM
Frame 21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYge-QEZz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-qib8_Juqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsFsTPOe0_Q
Frame 22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFRlinHm3z8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8USXt9ffofs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dezc0yuMkU
Frame 23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzZJZrBPaXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwBb4oayvFM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzReDSrTO6Q
Frame 24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkgN1mkxww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESCD4HCyz8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MC5Hpa00Bw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEknhX4tfqw
Frame 25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVeIKq6Vlko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7_z4fRdG_I
Frame 26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ck3tqoMqOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwHszq_gNbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQYieCenaXA
Frame 27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUN28WtPGzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3-a8MQ_3lQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mIQTAJAusA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kpe_I5VXA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPX_ALR_NAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o2p6d90lKk
Frame 28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEuUkR03U2g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARTvh3-KR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAlbvAUmiwU
Frame 29
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKpEgZfZfSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwkP1AVJ5XM
Frame 30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHwMbDmgYwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MSFXzDQ_Fk
Frame 31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0x-M7DDnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JicGf0krxLE
Presentation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmlZTZErwY

eg8r
05-12-2007, 08:34 PM
I guess my previous post did not stick...so here I go again.

I have heard about follow through my whole life. I hear it from pool players, coaches, and this message board. I played baseball all the way through high school and the coaches preached follow through the whole time. I read about following through in golf magazines, etc.

My question is...Can someone please explain the importance of the follow through? Once the ball has left the cue tip you no longer have any control on the ball so why does it matter where my cue tip ends? I just don't understand what the difference is for following all the way through or just part of the way? Going 2 inches past the contact point or a quarter of an inch? Why does it matter?

eg8r

Cydpkt
05-12-2007, 11:03 PM
To me it completes the stroke. Why do baseball pitchers follow thru when pitching? After a batter hits a ball why keep swinging? Why do golfers follow thru after they have hit the ball. When doing any of the above you have basically committed these acts to muscle memory. A person practices shot after shot and evenutally gets to a point where they get to the table and says "I know this shot!" By not following thru you are interupting the natural flow of momentum. To stop your cue just after contact your muscles have to change their motion. This can cause you to miss the contact point you were aiming for. A nice smooth, straight follow through helps to keep it simple and not complicate the shot. There are so many things happening for each shot to be successful with precision position that one constant needs to be a smooth and reliable stroke. Just my 2 cents. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jal
05-13-2007, 12:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>...My question is...Can someone please explain the importance of the follow through? Once the ball has left the cue tip you no longer have any control on the ball so why does it matter where my cue tip ends? I just don't understand what the difference is for following all the way through or just part of the way? Going 2 inches past the contact point or a quarter of an inch? Why does it matter?<hr /></blockquote>Good follow-through is associated with a smooth, seemingly effortless, non-jerky stroke. You're right though that follow through, by itself, does absolutely nothing. It's a "go with the flow" sort of thing.

After impact, the stick wants to keep going forward. (In fact, it gains more momentum after the collision in the process of catching up with your arm, whose own momentum is essentially unaffected by the impact.)

If you slam on the brakes after the collision, fine. But chances are that if your follow-through is unusually short, you're actually applying the brakes before impact. This is a waste of energy: why get the cue up to some speed, only to then slow it down before it's done its job?

There are more important problems. For one, you're applying more force then necessary, and greater force tends to degrade control. Also, several things that can affect cue speed adversely, ie, errors in your mechanics or setup, tend to have a larger effect when accelerating and then decelerating before impact. It's simply harder to get the speed right.

But making a special effort to increase follow-through is pointless too, and might introduce problems of its own.

I guess it might be summed up by saying that it's best to get your cue up to speed as effortlessly as possible, which means having it at peak speed just before impact, and then let it come naturally to a stop. Don't worry about specific distances.

Just some thoughts.

Jim

cushioncrawler
05-13-2007, 04:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> ....I have heard about follow through my whole life. I hear it from pool players, coaches, and this message board. I played baseball all the way through high school and the coaches preached follow through the whole time. I read about following through in golf magazines, etc. My question is...Can someone please explain the importance of the follow through? Once the ball has left the cue tip you no longer have any control on the ball so why does it matter where my cue tip ends? I just don't understand what the difference is for following all the way through or just part of the way? Going 2 inches past the contact point or a quarter of an inch? Why does it matter?.....<hr /></blockquote>Ed -- I go along with u. I wonder how many players out there would improov by having "zero" follow-throo. And, for that matter, a smallish backswing allso. I know of at least one oldendayz champ that a small backswing, and zero follow-throo. madMac.

dr_dave
05-13-2007, 08:33 AM
See the "follow throough" link under "stroke" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html), and see item 5 in my stroke best practices document (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/stroke_best_practices.pdf).

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I guess my previous post did not stick...so here I go again.

I have heard about follow through my whole life. I hear it from pool players, coaches, and this message board. I played baseball all the way through high school and the coaches preached follow through the whole time. I read about following through in golf magazines, etc.

My question is...Can someone please explain the importance of the follow through? Once the ball has left the cue tip you no longer have any control on the ball so why does it matter where my cue tip ends? I just don't understand what the difference is for following all the way through or just part of the way? Going 2 inches past the contact point or a quarter of an inch? Why does it matter?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

pooltchr
05-13-2007, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
I have heard about follow through my whole life. I hear it from pool players, coaches, and this message board. I played baseball all the way through high school and the coaches preached follow through the whole time. I read about following through in golf magazines, etc.

My question is...Can someone please explain the importance of the follow through? Once the ball has left the cue tip you no longer have any control on the ball so why does it matter where my cue tip ends? I just don't understand what the difference is for following all the way through or just part of the way? Going 2 inches past the contact point or a quarter of an inch? Why does it matter?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Try hitting a golf ball, but stop the head of the driver over the tee. Or you could try hitting a baseball, but don't let the bat go past home plate. Or you could try throwing a bowling ball, but stop the forward motion when your hand is down beside your leg.
Follow-through in and of itself means nothing. Follow-through is simply the result of finishing your stroke. If your stroke comes to it's natural finishing point, you will have follow-through, and in the process, will have moved the cue ball forward. Withoug it, the most you can do is put a chalk mark on the cue ball.
Steve

bradb
05-18-2007, 10:52 AM
/quote]Ed -- I go along with u. I wonder how many players out there would improov by having "zero" follow-throo. And, for that matter, a smallish backswing allso. I know of at least one oldendayz champ that a small backswing, and zero follow-throo. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm..Zero follow through sounds interesting Max, it opens up a whole new field of play. For instance could it be possible to execute the push shot without getting called for a foul?

There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremly difficult.

Stretch
05-18-2007, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> /quote]Ed -- I go along with u. I wonder how many players out there would improov by having "zero" follow-throo. And, for that matter, a smallish backswing allso. I know of at least one oldendayz champ that a small backswing, and zero follow-throo. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmmm..Zero follow through sounds interesting Max, it opens up a whole new field of play. For instance could it be possible to execute the push shot without getting called for a foul?

There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremly difficult. <hr /></blockquote>

On long shots where i'm crowded close to the end rail or right up against it i use a short stroke with very little follow. The tendency with a short backswing is to follow through too far. When this happens your timing is all wrong. I use the 50/50 rule on chocked up shots and short bridge tap shots. 2" back swing=2"follow. That's really just to the other side of the ball from your tip contact point given a 2" backswing. St.

eg8r
05-18-2007, 11:29 AM
I understand what you are saying, but many times I was told I was not following through all the way. I never did understand what another inch of follow through would give me since I am no longer in contact with the ball.

eg8r

cushioncrawler
05-18-2007, 04:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Ed -- I go along with u. I wonder how many players out there would improov by having "zero" follow-throo. And, for that matter, a smallish backswing allso. I know of at least one oldendayz champ that a small backswing, and zero follow-throo.<hr /></blockquote>Hmmmm.. Zero follow through sounds interesting Max, it opens up a whole new field of play. For instance could it be possible to execute the push shot without getting called for a foul? There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremly difficult.<hr /></blockquote>Brad -- I think a pushshot is a foul no matter how well u might do it (billiards, not sure about pool).

Re "allmost zero backswing" -- One iznt limited to allmost zero, u-me can uze absolutely zero if we want. Taint difficult.

Re 1/4" of space between qball and OB -- I can follow throo the OB for perhaps 1000mm with just a 1/4" gap. But, yes, a cute little dead lay-up to the OB iz very difficult (without fouling). I would play a few airyz, nearly hitting the qball, and moov in slowly, still doing little backnforward moovments, untill i made contact, but taint foolproof neither. madMac.

cushioncrawler
05-18-2007, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ....On long shots where i'm crowded close to the end rail or right up against it i use a short stroke with very little follow. The tendency with a short backswing is to follow through too far. When this happens your timing is all wrong. I use the 50/50 rule on chocked up shots and short bridge tap shots. 2" back swing = 2"follow. That's really just to the other side of the ball from your tip contact point given a 2" backswing...<hr /></blockquote>Yes, i like that "backswing = follow" rule. Reminds me of Peter Thompson (golfer) who said the same thing for putting. Murt O'Donoghue told my billiards mate the same thing, for when playing over an OB, to forget about the target ball, just do a little backswing, and a short controlled sharp accurate little poke, rezisting the urge to look up or lift the head. madMac.

pooltchr
05-18-2007, 06:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I understand what you are saying, but many times I was told I was not following through all the way. I never did understand what another inch of follow through would give me since I am no longer in contact with the ball.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>
Ed,
It's not that the follow-through changes the shot...it's an indicator that you either did or did not have a complete stroke. Complete follow through is the result of a complete stroke that finished naturally.
Steve

bradb
05-18-2007, 07:15 PM
quote max-- I think a pushshot is a foul no matter how well u might do it (billiards, not sure about pool).

Re "allmost zero backswing" -- One iznt limited to allmost zero, u-me can uze absolutely zero if we want. Taint difficult.

Re 1/4" of space between qball and OB -- I can follow throo the OB for perhaps 1000mm with just a 1/4" gap. But, yes, a cute little dead lay-up to the OB iz very difficult (without fouling). I would play a few airyz, nearly hitting the qball, and moov in slowly, still doing little backnforward moovments, untill i made contact, but taint foolproof neither. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

To execute the Almost zero follow through would require amazing nerve control plus the ref would have to be right on top of it to look for the push.

I was thinking that the Absolute Zero Follow Through you described would be stopping the stroke at the precise moment of contact... extreamly difficult but not impossible. If one was to execute the AZFT then that would negate the push shot to within a 1000th of an inch of a frozen ball. Assuming that there would be a minute amount of forward movement of the q ball. I'm sure that even my stickiest snooker friends would allow it should it be observed under scientific conditions i.e. A high speed camera. There are probably only a handful of players in the world who could execute this...

Bob_Jewett
05-18-2007, 07:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremely difficult. <hr /></blockquote>
There are several standard techniques to do this. Some players can draw the cue ball straight back without side spin a couple of diamonds in this situation. And with a fouette shot, some players (such as Tom Rossman or Mike Massey) can draw the cue ball five cushions around the table from such a position. A shot on a carom table is illustrated at http://artistic.billard.cz/pozice/pozice49.jpg -- the cue ball is no more than 5mm from the object ball.

cushioncrawler
05-18-2007, 09:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> quote max-- I think a pushshot is a foul no matter how well u might do it (billiards, not sure about pool). Re "allmost zero backswing" -- One iznt limited to allmost zero, u-me can uze absolutely zero if we want. Taint difficult. Re 1/4" of space between qball and OB -- I can follow throo the OB for perhaps 1000mm with just a 1/4" gap. But, yes, a cute little dead lay-up to the OB iz very difficult (without fouling). I would play a few airyz, nearly hitting the qball, and moov in slowly, still doing little backnforward moovments, untill i made contact, but taint foolproof neither..<hr /></blockquote>To execute the Almost zero follow through would require amazing nerve control plus the ref would have to be right on top of it to look for the push. I was thinking that the Absolute Zero Follow Through you described would be stopping the stroke at the precise moment of contact... extreamly difficult but not impossible. If one was to execute the AZFT then that would negate the push shot to within a 1000th of an inch of a frozen ball. Assuming that there would be a minute amount of forward movement of the q ball. I'm sure that even my stickiest snooker friends would allow it should it be observed under scientific conditions i.e. A high speed camera. There are probably only a handful of players in the world who could execute this... <hr /></blockquote>Brad -- Here i meant zero backswing, not zero followthroo. But, earlyr, where i did mean zero followthroo, that "zero" meant past the back of the qball, not past the contact point. Sorry if any mix-up. madMac.

cushioncrawler
05-18-2007, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremely difficult.<hr /></blockquote>There are several standard techniques to do this. Some players can draw the cue ball straight back without side spin a couple of diamonds in this situation. And with a fouette shot, some players (such as Tom Rossman or Mike Massey) can draw the cue ball five cushions around the table from such a position. A shot on a carom table is illustrated at http://artistic.billard.cz/pozice/pozice49.jpg -- the cue ball is no more than 5mm from the object ball.<hr /></blockquote>Bob -- It might not be difficult to play a fair follow-throo, or a fair screw-shot, with the qball and OB 5mm or 1/4" apart, but, nonetheless, playing a little tap to make the qball just reech the OB, without double hitting, and without stopping short, is allways fraught. madMac.

bradb
05-19-2007, 08:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>... There's a first nations snooker player here who uses an almost zero back swing on his safety play. He can lay down a snooker with just 1/4" space between Q ball and object ball. To do this his follow through would have to be less than 1/4" Try it, its extremely difficult.<hr /></blockquote>There are several standard techniques to do this. Some players can draw the cue ball straight back without side spin a couple of diamonds in this situation. And with a fouette shot, some players (such as Tom Rossman or Mike Massey) can draw the cue ball five cushions around the table from such a position. A shot on a carom table is illustrated at http://artistic.billard.cz/pozice/pozice49.jpg -- the cue ball is no more than 5mm from the object ball.<hr /></blockquote>Bob -- It might not be difficult to play a fair follow-throo, or a fair screw-shot, with the qball and OB 5mm or 1/4" apart, but, nonetheless, playing a little tap to make the qball just reech the OB, without double hitting, and without stopping short, is allways fraught. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Yes I misread, thinking your said AZFT. Absolute Zero "Backswing" is indeed a different aniimal. The forward motion from a dead stop to about the width of the qball ball would be difficult to hold control. "Almost zero back swing to "Almost zero FT is what I was descibing.

Bob's billiards diagram is interesting. I've seen this shot in a trick shot demonstration. Its incredible the amount of backspin swirve they can get with this technique. In fact one guy was able to get so much side spin the Qball did'nt even hit the rail, it made a complete circle on the table!

bradb
05-19-2007, 11:23 AM
Max, I forgot to mention, my friend sold his two bent left cues!....

A one-eyed guy bought them!! He's blind in his right eye and shoots right handed so you can imagine his difficulty in getting over the cue... very hard to have a straight on stance since when you move your head over, your are off line!

The bent left cues are perfect for him as it allows him to sight looking at the shot as if he could see with both eyes. Now his head is back on line and the bend compensates for the difference.!!!!

This also opens up an amazing opprtunity for those who's dominate eye is on the wrong side of the cue. Whadoya think? Brad

-I forgot to mention, he made a special bent left case so they would stay crooked in shipment..

cushioncrawler
05-19-2007, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Max, I forgot to mention, my friend sold his two bent left cues!.... A one-eyed guy bought them!! He's blind in his right eye and shoots right handed so you can imagine his difficulty in getting over the cue... very hard to have a straight on stance since when you move your head over, your are off line!

The bent left cues are perfect for him as it allows him to sight looking at the shot as if he could see with both eyes. Now his head is back on line and the bend compensates for the difference.!!!!

This also opens up an amazing opprtunity for those who's dominate eye is on the wrong side of the cue. Whadoya think?.... I forgot to mention, he made a special bent left case so they would stay crooked in shipment.. <hr /></blockquote>Brad -- This is great stuff, different. I must admit that i karnt understand any tecky stuff re eye-sight and vizion etc, so i dont want to sound like an expert, but i am wondering -- woz the blindness from birth ?? -- if not, woz the left eye allwayz the dominant eye ??? -- duz he (did he) have an aiming-error problem ?? It sounds like there is something completely new happening here -- dont know whether it will help me tho (while i have 1.70 eyes).

The good thing about a bent cue iz that it iz in effekt a straight cue when the bend iz held down or up, so i dont know why players have an averzion to bent cues. But, if u are like me, the qtip duznt last half az long, koz, to tell the full truth, i love holding the cue such that the same bit of the qtip kumz into contact with the qball allmost every shot, ie for screw i will hold the bend downish, for left-hand-side i hold the bend to the left -- hencely the qtip wears out quickly. The upside is that i tend to only chalk the critical half of the qtip, hencely less chalk flying around and less kicks (skid cling). madMac.

bradb
05-19-2007, 06:28 PM
Max this is what I know so far....

As far as my friend John can tell me the man exclaimed that he needed a bend that would account for the distance from the center of his left pupil to center of his blind right pupil which was at 2.78 inches approx. This then was calculated with the distance from the point of that pupil to the end of the shaft at the tip in his stance: 28.52" approx. Given those equations he came up with a bend of about .32 " (smart guy John is he checked by trying a shot with the bent left cue and his right eye closed!) And Bob's your uncle -it proved to be bang on.

As to the buyer it seems the poor guy was blind from birth so he will never know which eye was his dominate. But by last reports everything was fine.
As for turning the bend, he must keep the cue bent in the opposite direction of every shot so that the tip swings back around to meet the Q ball with the new sighting.

There is one problem... John discovered with the bent shaft the tip is now worn like a tire outa line, you know....tread worn on one side, so John is working on a special slanted chalk, I'll keep ya posted. Brad

cushioncrawler
05-19-2007, 06:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Max this is what I know so far.... As far as my friend John can tell me the man exclaimed that he needed a bend that would account for the distance from the center of his left pupil to center of his blind right pupil which was at 2.78 inches approx. This then was calculated with the distance from the point of that pupil to the end of the shaft at the tip in his stance: 28.52" approx. Given those equations he came up with a bend of about .32 " (smart guy John is he checked by trying a shot with the bent left cue and his right eye closed!) And Bob's your uncle -it proved to be bang on. As to the buyer it seems the poor guy was blind from birth so he will never know which eye was his dominate. But by last reports everything was fine. As for turning the bend, he must keep the cue bent in the opposite direction of every shot so that the tip swings back around to meet the Q ball with the new sighting. There is one problem... John dicovered with the bent shaft the tip is now worn like a tire outa line, you know....tread worn on one side, so John is working on a special slanted chalk, I'll keep ya posted. Brad<hr /></blockquote>Brad -- Me, myself, when glueing a new tip, i firstly twirl the cue between my hands, holding the cue vertical with the tip on a sheet of fine sandpaper laying on a hard floor. Hencely, the plane of the ferrule-tip (that the leather tip iz to sit on) is square to a line running from the center of the butt to the center of the tip, ie the leather tip is not square to bent bit of the cue. Hencely, my leather tip iz never square to the line of aim, nor to the stroke. And, this tip-error gets worse az the tip wears and flattens. I think that i would be better off if i could somehow have the tip square to the shot -- but u never know, it might be better my way, for some stupid reezon.

I still think that no amount of theory can beat having a large choice of different sizes and styles of bends to "suck n see". And i still think that every player will havta have a yearly makeover -- koz eyesight and stroke etc change, for better or worse.

I like yor quip about slanted chalk, allmost az good as yor earlyr one about having to leev bent cues leaning against the wall. madMac.

bradb
05-19-2007, 07:09 PM
Max, I just talked to John on the phone and he has heard from the one eyed player. He is missing every shot by 2.78 inches. It seems his blind eye is a "ghost eye" so he has a dominate right eye! he just can't see through it. John told him to flip the cue over to a left bend and it should solve the problem.

Oh Boy...Sanding for a bent cue tip mount is deffinatelly going to be a problem.! I don't think I'll tell John about that, he's really struggling with the slanted chalk idea. This will put him over the edge for sure.

bradb
05-19-2007, 07:28 PM
Damn.... more problems!... I have been notified by the coalition of sensitive minority terminology that I will be called before a judicial inquiry if I don't stop using the term "Bent eyed people."

The term I will now start using in all my corespondence is:
""The alignment challenged."

Aplolgies to all. Brad

cushioncrawler
05-19-2007, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Max, I just talked to John on the phone and he has heard from the one eyed player. He is missing every shot by 2.78 inches. It seems his blind eye is a "ghost eye" so he has a dominate right eye! he just can't see through it. John told him to flip the cue over to a left bend and it should solve the problem.

Oh Boy...Sanding for a bent cue tip mount is deffinatelly going to be a problem.! I don't think I'll tell John about that, he's really struggling with the slanted chalk idea. This will put him over the edge for sure. <hr /></blockquote>Hmmmm -- U would think that a one-eyed player wouldnt have much trouble at all. For a starter, they would only ever see one cue, whereaz if i look mainly at the OB i see 2 cues (and 2 qballs). Anyhow, i am confident that a bend can help 19 out of 20 two-eyed-players (dont know about one-eyed players, 20 out of 20??). If the bend is too-much, then one holds the bend downish or upish to dilute the medicine, but if the bend iz too-little then best get more bend.

Duz he wear glasses ??? I do. Hmmm -- the pozzy of the optikal center might be infinitely more important for one-eyed players than for two-eyed players (not meaning to ignore three-eyed players here). Perhaps standing more side-on to the shot might help -- ie holding the head n eye(s) at more of an angle. madMac.

bradb
05-19-2007, 07:49 PM
I used to see double!.... then when I moved to Canada I got ahold of a bottle of Screech from up Stretches neck of the woods. Cured me right up... Give Stretch a yell He'll send you a batch.... unless you used to see single and then got screeched, I don't think it will change you back. - Brad

Stretch
05-20-2007, 02:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I used to see double!.... then when I moved to Canada I got ahold of a bottle of Screech from up Stretches neck of the woods. Cured me right up... Give Stretch a yell He'll send you a batch.... unless you used to see single and then got screeched, I don't think it will change you back. - Brad

<hr /></blockquote>

The real secret of useing Screetch is that you must aim for the ball in the middle. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St. ( don't tell the Newfies i gave up that secret! or my supply might dry up. )

cushioncrawler
05-20-2007, 03:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I used to see double!.... then when I moved to Canada I got ahold of a bottle of Screech from up Stretches neck of the woods. Cured me right up... Give Stretch a yell He'll send you a batch.... unless you used to see single and then got screeched, I don't think it will change you back. - Brad<hr /></blockquote>The real secret of useing Screetch is that you must aim for the ball in the middle. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif St. ( don't tell the Newfies i gave up that secret! or my supply might dry up.)<hr /></blockquote>I karnt remember any posting mentioning the problem (if it iz a problem) of seeing either 2 cues or 2 OBs. Perhaps this problem duznt raize its ugly head for pool players koz they mostly have their chins high up above the cue. Snooker players often have their chin touching the cue, hencely have a problem. I remember watching the footage of Joe Johnson when he won the snooker title, i woz amazed at how deliberately he looked down at hiz (one) cue then raised hiz eyes up to the (one) qball, then up up up to the (one) OB, then down down down again, then up up up again, etc, obviously drawing a solid thick aim-line throo the whole scene. Joe didnt take no $hit from any double vizion stuff. Taint never seen anyone doing that quite like that, before nor since. But, nobody ever talks about it.

For instance, never mentioned here nor elsewhere, the vertical angle of the cue (if jacked up a bit) allso kumz into the "aim-error" (horizontal aim angle) for some. Here, i wouldnt be surprized if some players actually got less aim-error by doing more of what they are allwayz told not to, ie needlessly jacking-up too much (with the butt) every shot. Selby won the 8-ball championship, and he jacks-up more than any other snooker player that i have seen on TV -- might be why.

Just noticed, this thread iz about follow-throo, not aim. Ok, Joe and Selby allso follow-throo a long way. madMac.

bradb
05-20-2007, 05:25 PM
How ya doing Stretch!...

As you can see Max and I have been dicussing the finer points of bent cues for players with alinement difficulties. Max thinks its time a product line was introduced, but since then we've have come up with a few difficulties.

Max also gave me some pretty good pointers on "almost zero follow through." and almost zero backswing. Combine the two and you can lay down a mean little snewker.

I tried the Absolute zero follow through/Absolute Zero backswing shot but they called me on time! ...I told them it takes a while to pull it off, but the ref had no patience!

Thanks for the Screech tip. I gotta newfie buddy here who brings some every time we get together. Brews it up here, aint bad!

Stay warm up there! Brad

bradb
05-20-2007, 05:51 PM
/quote]I karnt remember any posting mentioning the problem (if it iz a problem) of seeing either 2 cues or 2 OBs. Perhaps this problem duznt raize its ugly head for pool players koz they mostly have their chins high up above the cue. Snooker players often have their chin touching the cue, hencely have a problem. I remember watching the footage of Joe Johnson when he won the snooker title, i woz amazed at how deliberately he looked down at hiz (one) cue then raised hiz eyes up to the (one) qball, then up up up to the (one) OB, then down down down again, then up up up again, etc, obviously drawing a solid thick aim-line throo the whole scene. Joe didnt take no $hit from any double vizion stuff. Taint never seen anyone doing that quite like that, before nor since. But, nobody ever talks about it.

For instance, never mentioned here nor elsewhere, the vertical angle of the cue (if jacked up a bit) allso kumz into the "aim-error" (horizontal aim angle) for some. Here, i wouldnt be surprized if some players actually got less aim-error by doing more of what they are allwayz told not to, ie needlessly jacking-up too much (with the butt) every shot. Selby won the 8-ball championship, and he jacks-up more than any other snooker player that i have seen on TV -- might be why.

Just noticed, this thread iz about follow-throo, not aim. Ok, Joe and Selby allso follow-throo a long way. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Max, I thought you mentioned you saw 2 OBs 2 Qbs, the trick is to pot them both by shooting in the middle.

Good comment on downward shooting. Mike Segal started some of this jacking up stuff by saying that you should always strike down at such an angle as to hit the cloth with your cue tip on every shot. Hell my table looks like a zebra after my pool buddies come over and play. You do that on a snooker table and they'll throw ya out!

Check out my note to Stretch if you getta sec. I mentioned the ultimate Zen shot... the Absolute zero back/absolute zero follow throo shot. It takes enourmous concentration. Its almost a Yoga-naval contemplation thing. Would make pretty boring video though.

One more note before I run, John is thinking about a fully adjustable bent cue! Not quite sure how he's gonna do it, any ideas?. Brad

Vapros
05-20-2007, 07:57 PM
This discussion about bent cues has been fascinating, but I decided, about nine posts ago, that it might be more than I can follow, and that such an instrument is not for me. I believe it would be somewhat of a burden, as you would all the time have to explain about it to those around you who have noticed the kink in your thing.

In my own case, I have found a better solution to my similar problem. I have a crooked backstroke, and to compensate I aim all my shots one and three-quarter inches to the left of the pocket, and the ball often goes in. Few of my opponents ever figure out just what I am doing to them. I doubt that would be true if I were using a crooked cue.

cushioncrawler
05-21-2007, 01:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> This discussion about bent cues has been fascinating, but I decided, about nine posts ago, that it might be more than I can follow, and that such an instrument is not for me. I believe it would be somewhat of a burden, as you would all the time have to explain about it to those around you who have noticed the kink in your thing.

In my own case, I have found a better solution to my similar problem. I have a crooked backstroke, and to compensate I aim all my shots one and three-quarter inches to the left of the pocket, and the ball often goes in. Few of my opponents ever figure out just what I am doing to them. I doubt that would be true if I were using a crooked cue. <hr /></blockquote>I have used a bent cue on and off for years, and no one has ever noticed. And, once or twice, a player haz shown me that hiz cue woz very bent, otherwize i would never have noticed. Try a bent cue, u wont go back. madMac.

bradb
05-21-2007, 11:12 AM
This is a thread on Follow Throo. so I thought I would mention the FT on the Break. This shot is as strange as alien creatures to us snooker players but in pool its the biggest part of winning.

I have found that I have'nt been coming through enough on my stroke. John showed me that after hitting the Qball to continue forward with my whole body behind the shot and point the cue straight at the rack until my arm is fully extended!. Of course your backswing is longer but not much longer than your usual. I tried this and I smacked the rack the hardest I have ever achieved.

This calls for complete control, Hitting the Qball dead center from an angle and as dead center on the one ball as you can. First time I did this was fantastic but there are a few dents in my wall now... needs much practice.

Also to get this kind of power your stance must be absolutely perfect for maximum contact. Get into your stance with the tip of the cue almost touching the Qball, now check your cue forearm...it must be absolutely vertical, if not then move your body forward or back to achieve it.

The whole action is one smooth forward motion with your entire body behind the shot. I found that I'm not actually swinging harder...in fact I'm swinging a bit less but its a controlled maximum effieciency motion.

cushioncrawler
05-21-2007, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>.....One more note before I run, John is thinking about a fully adjustable bent cue! Not quite sure how he's gonna do it, any ideas?...<hr /></blockquote>Having a range of bent shafts would be good. Laminated shafts would be perfikt to help acheev and keep a certain bend. I used to put a bit of paper in one side of the joint, the thicker the paper the more the bend, but i dont like this attack, a permanent bend halfway between tip and joint is better for lots of reezons. The simplest way to calibrate and/or adjust any bend is to simply hold the bend towards 3pm or 1pm etc, but i daresay that a bend shood be minimal in the first place. And dont forget to follow-throo. madMac.

bradb
05-22-2007, 09:53 AM
Yes an adjustable cue would be impossible as the bend is in the shaft, the butte is straight, the shaft is a smoooth continuous arc like an archery bow. So the answer would be a series of curved shafts all to different specs. A fiber glass or metal shaft would be impervious to "bad warp" but I like the wooden best as I'm a firm believe in organic pool!

We want to achieve "good warp" The laminate would help to maintain this, also instructions could be given in the care and treatment of the bent shaft...Ie. my suggestion to always store leaning against a wall.

Turning the cue to 3 oclock would place the cue at maximum warpage and then adjusting down to the proper angle for accuracy is a good reccomendation. Of course 9 oclock would be for the bent left challenged player. Or is that bent right? need further thought on that!

Anyway the follow through with a good warped cue would be on an arc making a circle that would continue on past the table until after an unspecified amount of distance would return to its starting point. This will have to be considered for bank shot accuracy. So using that point of reference one can factor in the bank angle the same as a straight cue is used to see the line, but of course that line continues straight forever. I call this "beyond the table awareness" and needs to be delved into more in future studies on pool. I'm sure you could provide more incite on that Max.

Vapros
05-22-2007, 01:52 PM
"Incite" I couldn't have put it better myself.

cushioncrawler
05-22-2007, 04:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> Yes an adjustable cue would be impossible as the bend is in the shaft, the butte is straight, the shaft is a smoooth continuous arc like an archery bow. So the answer would be a series of curved shafts all to different specs. A fiber glass or metal shaft would be impervious to "bad warp" but I like the wooden best as I'm a firm believe in organic pool!

We want to achieve "good warp" The laminate would help to maintain this, also instructions could be given in the care and treatment of the bent shaft...Ie. my suggestion to always store leaning against a wall.

Turning the cue to 3 oclock would place the cue at maximum warpage and then adjusting down to the proper angle for accuracy is a good reccomendation. Of course 9 oclock would be for the bent left challenged player. Or is that bent right? need further thought on that!

Anyway the follow through with a good warped cue would be on an arc making a circle that would continue on past the table until after an unspecified amount of distance would return to its starting point. This will have to be considered for bank shot accuracy. So using that point of reference one can factor in the bank angle the same as a straight cue is used to see the line, but of course that line continues straight forever. I call this "beyond the table awareness" and needs to be delved into more in future studies on pool. I'm sure you could provide more incite on that Max.<hr /></blockquote>Vapros's alludation is correct, "i incite, therefore i am". But i am as serious as can be about all of this "bent" stuff. In fact last night i remembered an incident from years ago. I noticed that the Ozz Billiards Champ woznt uzing hiz favorite cue (a one-piece), he woz uzing a 2-piece cue. And, my eye caught a glimpse of a little bit of paper sticking out of one side of the joint. I woz doing this "paper bend trick" myself, with my cue, at that time. I mentioned the paper him, and he woz (for the first time ever) a bit sheepish. He normally takes an interest in what i say about things, even tho he and everyone else uzually likes to share in a good laugh at my expense, and here i must admit that i am allwayz happy to give them lots of ammo. But, this time, he appeared to be guarded about the "paper in the joint" bizness. He said that the joint woznt quite straight -- i didnt take things further, but, i knew what woz really going on. Earlyr that year i had checked hiz alignment (aim), and it woz a shocker, the "worst" i had ever seen. And, at that time, he woz the reigning Ozz Billiards AND Snooker Champ(s), and woz widely touted az likely to win the Ozz 9-Ball that year (but he never entered). Normally, if one of my team-mates had had such a bad aim, i would have suggested a bent cue, but of course it would have been stupid to suggest any such thing if the guy is the best player in the land. He had obviously thunk this "paper bend" stuff out himself. I will take this whole matter up with him the next time i see him.

Brad -- I reckon that the shaft beyond the bend shood be dead-straight. And i like a sudden bend, if it can be done. But i karnt say much about a long gradual circular bend.

Re "organic pool" -- i agree -- organic, ie leather or cellulose, where-ever possible -- it shood be compulsory except for the table slate and the light fittings and chalk. The cue shood be wooden, balls cellulose, table wooden etc.

Regarding the theory of aiming and stroking etc, i wouldnt worry about any of that. In a fashion everything is feel, the bent cue makes for a simpler and more consistent feel. I reckon that even dead-straight shots are in fact feel, despite what everyone else sez -- but here i am allready starting to sin against my earlyr commandment about praying to the god of aim-theory.

And your mention of the need for a straight butt reminded me of another idea, which i woznt going to mention, about uzing a "bayonet joint". Here, the shaft and butt might both be dead-straight, but the bayonet offset givz a sort of "angle". A bayonet joint at mid-point would cause problems -- but it could be introduced az a second joint, very near where u grip, to help overkum the problem of damaging the furniture. Could say more. And dont forget to follow throo. bentMac.

bradb
05-22-2007, 07:33 PM
quote]Vapros's alludation is correct, "i incite, therefore i am". But i am as serious as can be about all of this "bent" stuff. In fact last night i remembered an incident from years ago. I noticed that the Ozz Billiards Champ woznt uzing hiz favorite cue (a one-piece), he woz uzing a 2-piece cue. And, my eye caught a glimpse of a little bit of paper sticking out of one side of the joint. I woz doing this "paper bend trick" myself, with my cue, at that time. I mentioned the paper him, and he woz (for the first time ever) a bit sheepish. He normally takes an interest in what i say about things, even tho he and everyone else uzually likes to share in a good laugh at my expense, and here i must admit that i am allwayz happy to give them lots of ammo. But, this time, he appeared to be guarded about the "paper in the joint" bizness. He said that the joint woznt quite straight -- i didnt take things further, but, i knew what woz really going on. Earlyr that year i had checked hiz alignment (aim), and it woz a shocker, the "worst" i had ever seen. And, at that time, he woz the reigning Ozz Billiards AND Snooker Champ(s), and woz widely touted az likely to win the Ozz 9-Ball that year (but he never entered). Normally, if one of my team-mates had had such a bad aim, i would have suggested a bent cue, but of course it would have been stupid to suggest any such thing if the guy is the best player in the land. He had obviously thunk this "paper bend" stuff out himself. I will take this whole matter up with him the next time i see him.

Brad -- I reckon that the shaft beyond the bend shood be dead-straight. And i like a sudden bend, if it can be done. But i karnt say much about a long gradual circular bend.

Re "organic pool" -- i agree -- organic, ie leather or cellulose, where-ever possible -- it shood be compulsory except for the table slate and the light fittings and chalk. The cue shood be wooden, balls cellulose, table wooden etc.

Regarding the theory of aiming and stroking etc, i wouldnt worry about any of that. In a fashion everything is feel, the bent cue makes for a simpler and more consistent feel. I reckon that even dead-straight shots are in fact feel, despite what everyone else sez -- but here i am allready starting to sin against my earlyr commandment about praying to the god of aim-theory.

And your mention of the need for a straight butt reminded me of another idea, which i woznt going to mention, about uzing a "bayonet joint". Here, the shaft and butt might both be dead-straight, but the bayonet offset givz a sort of "angle". A bayonet joint at mid-point would cause problems -- but it could be introduced az a second joint, very near where u grip, to help overkum the problem of damaging the furniture. Could say more. And dont forget to follow throo. bentMac. <hr /></blockquote>

To quote Minnisota Fats..."I ate therefore I am"

Well I don't know Max, I may disagree with you on a straight bend at the joint and not a continous curve. Would have to try stroking one and see if that feels right. As you slide it back the shaft would rub against only one side of your vee.

I mentioned in a thread some time ago that Ray Readon uses a bent cue because of a shoulder defect, it would be interesting to see how his is bent.

If the bend is at the joint as you say then an adjustable bend is in the realm of possibility i.e. a bayonette joint. I'm thinking something just like the bendable joint in a patio umbrella, you know, it will bend to block the sun and will lock in any position. Should a bent cue be of some embarrasment then you could deftly snap it back into straight and nobodys the wiser. You could really mess with some peoples heads if you wanted too...

Yes pool is feel. Has been. Allways will be. But my method of banking when the diamonds are'nt co-operating, is to draw an imaginery line off the table to meet at a distant point for cross bank aiming. If that line is a curve, or tangent then "beyond the table awareness" is a new factor...also one time I glimpsed a guy trying to sneak off with my break cue!... but i digress. If your Ozz champ is still around he would be a valuable source for info. He may be guarded about the paper thing though.

cushioncrawler
05-22-2007, 08:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> .... Well I don't know Max, I may disagree with you on a straight bend at the joint and not a continous curve. Would have to try stroking one and see if that feels right. As you slide it back the shaft would rub against only one side of your vee. I mentioned in a thread some time ago that Ray Readon uses a bent cue because of a shoulder defect, it would be interesting to see how his is bent. If the bend is at the joint as you say then an adjustable bend is in the realm of possibility i.e. a bayonette joint. I'm thinking something just like the bendable joint in a patio umbrella, you know, it will bend to block the sun and will lock in any position. Should a bent cue be of some embarrasment then you could deftly snap it back into straight and nobodys the wiser. You could really mess with some peoples heads if you wanted too... Yes pool is feel. Has been. Allways will be. But my method of banking when the diamonds are'nt co-operating, is to draw an imaginery line off the table to meet at a distant point for cross bank aiming. If that line is a curve, or tangent then "beyond the table awareness" is a new factor...also one time I glimpsed a guy trying to sneak off with my break cue!... but i digress. If your Ozz champ is still around he would be a valuable source for info. He may be guarded about the paper thing though.<hr /></blockquote>Yes -- Thats the whole key to the whole bent thing -- the cue slides along one side of the Vee -- I shood have mentioned this. To help the bent-action-aim, i press the cue sidewayz into the Vee (into the left of the Vee for me actually). And, to help further, i uze a cue with a conical taper, and i lean my Vee to the right, to make the left-hand-side of the Vee allmost vertical. Pressing sideways would help players with a loop-bridge, but perhaps uzing a conical taper wouldnt be very effektiv for a loop-bridge.

One reezon why having a bend at the midpoint (joint) iznt so good, iz that it places too much torq force on the joint when u hit hardish. If u have the bend closer to the tip, this torq will be much smaller. Its not just the problem of damaging the joint, the cue might bend and buck too much and take power from your shot. madMac.

bradb
05-22-2007, 11:49 PM
.<hr /></blockquote>Yes -- Thats the whole key to the whole bent thing -- the cue slides along one side of the Vee -- I shood have mentioned this. To help the bent-action-aim, i press the cue sidewayz into the Vee (into the left of the Vee for me actually). And, to help further, i uze a cue with a conical taper, and i lean my Vee to the right, to make the left-hand-side of the Vee allmost vertical. Pressing sideways would help players with a loop-bridge, but perhaps uzing a conical taper wouldnt be very effektiv for a loop-bridge.

One reezon why having a bend at the midpoint (joint) iznt so good, iz that it places too much torq force on the joint when u hit hardish. If u have the bend closer to the tip, this torq will be much smaller. Its not just the problem of damaging the joint, the cue might bend and buck too much and take power from your shot. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

A bucking cue is a develish irratation and distraction to ones game. Here we have a situation that calls up a player I encountered in Garland Texas at a 14-1 tourney. This kid was a flatliner when he had the hammer, very steaddy but his hand was deformed so he employed the "Knuckle" bridge. This bridge is very rare and I 've only seen used by few other players. Anyway despite being deformed the kid also used a bent cue which was a 3- piece and the bend was in the middle section.

He placed his deformed hand (which was a claw really,) on the table and made a fist resting the cue on the knuckle between his middle and index finger which made a "U" Similar to the rake... Some suspected he also had a glass right eye and was really focusing with his left eye sighting along the bend as it came into view. I know that this was just a rumour that he started to build up his bets. But I know he needed that bend because his aim was wonky as hell. The "u" bridge eliminated the sideways torque.

Last I heard about him he died from a gas attack brought on by a bad bowl of Chili at the Terlingua County cook off... but thats another story.

Food for thought. Brad

bradb
05-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Max... I've done some research and its payed off.

Here is an intire post of players who have bent cues and they stand by them. /www.thesnookerforum.com/cues-123/should-your-cue-be-straight-3949.html

There is also a club in England called the Jolly potter where only bent cues are played.

There is also a sound test to find out if you have a quality bend:

Place a ball on the spot and hit it gently... you should hear a "soft doink!" not a "dink."

Now give it a good rap... you should still hear a thwock." not a groan or a clunk or clink!

A moaning sound is also produced by a cue of poor quality.

You want the nice doink with slight twang but not nasal. In fact it should resonate a subtle hum!

-Brad

cushioncrawler
05-24-2007, 08:44 PM
Brad -- Couldnt find that list of players.
Do u have any details of the Jolly Potter comp etc.
Where did the doinks n dinks come from. madMac.

bradb
05-25-2007, 11:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Brad -- Couldnt find that list of players.
Do u have any details of the Jolly Potter comp etc.
Where did the doinks n dinks come from. madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

Here's the address again.

www.thesnookerforum.com/cues-123/should-your-cue-be-straight-3949.html (http://www.thesnookerforum.com/cues-123/should-your-cue-be-straight-3949.html)

Will have to dig up that site on bent cue clubs (There are many) however I suspect they are given to the other aversion to snooker in England and that being the consumption of good London stout.

The bent cue noise info was given to me by a friend (Bob) who is a retired pro snooker player here in the valley. I play a few games with him once a week and it usually amounts to me counting runs, but occasionally I get up to snuff and give him a game. Anyway Bob related to me the cue noises he has come across in his travels in England where they take cue stick quality very serious. One way to see if you have a good stick is the noise test. The most interesting was the bent cue trial which is also taken very seriously there. The bend provides a bit more resonance when stricking.

must run now will provide more later. Brad

bradb
05-25-2007, 02:37 PM
For anyone looking for pool talk on a whole new level, this is one of the weirdest pool sites on the web. I like off beat pool discussions and enjoy new ideas but if you go in here leave all sanity behind. -Brad

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Crown-Green_20Pool