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KellyStick
05-18-2007, 10:31 AM
Yo, I shoot in APA and sometimes get so fed up with the sandbaggers that I wanna jump ship to a new league. I just can't imagine why some people would spend so much time shooting pool just to lose or otherwise manipulate their handicaps just so they could go to that spectacle Las Vegas.

Anyway, of the leagues out there you all have played on... which seem to be the most honest (if any). I'd just like to play and have a good competition. I'd rather get beat than win and wonder whether the guy was just sandbagging.

dg-in-centralpa
05-18-2007, 10:44 AM
The only way you will ever play in a league and not have sandbagging is if you don't have handicaps. I play in 2 leagues one with and one without a handicap. The one without is played straight up and each game counts. The other is a handicap and there are definitely sandbaggers. If there are enough of players who don't like sandbagging, start your own league.

DG

Brian in VA
05-18-2007, 12:31 PM
Try a BCA or ACS league. I run an 8 ball league that is sanctioned by both organizations and I think my players would say that everyone plays full bore at all times. It's easily the most competitive league in Central VA. Just my 2 cents!

Brian in VA

Bob_Jewett
05-18-2007, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> Yo, I shoot in APA and sometimes get so fed up with the sandbaggers that I wanna jump ship to a new league. ... <hr /></blockquote>
There are ways of handling handicaps which discourage sandbagging. If the system counts anything other than important match wins and losses -- the player has to have something riding on each match -- then it is usually easy to manipulate the system. The NPL system is hard to sandbag although not impossible.

trob
05-18-2007, 03:08 PM
Thats why I don't play in the tap league..around here it's nothing but sandbagging.

bsmutz
05-18-2007, 04:32 PM
Some of the APA leagues have a Masters division. No handicap, race to seven (5 games of 8, 7 games of 9), one point per game. You can use a jump cue, push out, no call ups, and one other rule that makes sense that I can't remember right now. Slop still counts in 8. Just started here a couple of weeks ago and I'm loving it. Three man teams here, so if you can play on two tables it's over in two hours. It's $10 apiece per night. You do lose your ranking if you don't play on a regular team also and there are some penalties at the tournaments. Talk to your LO and see if they offer Masters in your area. I think you'll like it a lot better.

allstar
05-19-2007, 09:57 AM
I know what you mean. I play nine ball in the apa and my teammate is a sandbagger. The funny part is he loses because he sandbags. Thought the idea was to win but not show your true speed. But then any league where your team breaks up because you improve their play sucks anyway.

canadan
05-19-2007, 10:52 AM
well the idea of league is to stack your team the best you can right. (if your playn to win vs having fun) so like our team last season after the 3rd of 28 weeks our players were in the top 7. so 5 of our guys were in the top 7. our team handi was 0. then we play a team with a 14ish handi per round for a total of 56 points for the night. thats giving them almost 6 games out of 20. how is that fair? so 3 of us got ready for the flood. and juiced our handi to 5-6 points a round. realy helped and in the final 4 weeks we all played strong no sand bagn and took first for the season. from 5th to 1st I think there is more to league then just playn pool. if there was no handi we would of not had a reason to. and the level of play would go up. for me I'd go on a 11 game win streak then a 13 game lose streak 11 game win. over and over however I was tryn for 21 to get the longest streak but fell short everytime

the best part is to just watch some of there faces in playoffs too..lol ?(I smoked that guy in the season did he just get anothr run out?) lol

trob
05-19-2007, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> well the idea of league is to stack your team the best you can right. (if your playn to win vs having fun) so like our team last season after the 3rd of 28 weeks our players were in the top 7. so 5 of our guys were in the top 7. our team handi was 0. then we play a team with a 14ish handi per round for a total of 56 points for the night. thats giving them almost 6 games out of 20. how is that fair? so 3 of us got ready for the flood. and juiced our handi to 5-6 points a round. realy helped and in the final 4 weeks we all played strong no sand bagn and took first for the season. from 5th to 1st I think there is more to league then just playn pool. if there was no handi we would of not had a reason to. and the level of play would go up. for me I'd go on a 11 game win streak then a 13 game lose streak 11 game win. over and over however I was tryn for 21 to get the longest streak but fell short everytime

the best part is to just watch some of there faces in playoffs too..lol ?(I smoked that guy in the season did he just get anothr run out?) lol <hr /></blockquote>

It's fair because that's how it works..if you suck you get a high handicapp to give you a chance. Sounds like your a sandbagger and the reason why I don't play in those leagues or tournaments.

canadan
05-19-2007, 04:37 PM
all i got to say if no handi in playoff they why have a handi in the season. its ether sandbag or get some players on your team that have never played pool before. in our case we did both. fist over all season first over all playoffs. its like pro teams trying to get a good draft pick.
p.s. with my handi i also won lots of money games becouse of my stats. they here about my stats and are willing to give me a game or 2 even been spoted the 7 ball againdt players i need no handi against lol. thats pool

canadan
05-19-2007, 04:42 PM
oh then if a handicaps a good idea why are the teams with high handicap sitting in 1-3 when the good teams are fighting to pick up 1 round?

jjinfla
05-19-2007, 05:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote KellyStick:</font><hr> Yo, I shoot in APA and sometimes get so fed up with the sandbaggers that I wanna jump ship to a new league. I just can't imagine why some people would spend so much time shooting pool just to lose or otherwise manipulate their handicaps just so they could go to that spectacle Las Vegas.

Anyway, of the leagues out there you all have played on... which seem to be the most honest (if any). I'd just like to play and have a good competition. I'd rather get beat than win and wonder whether the guy was just sandbagging. <hr /></blockquote>


Ha Ha Ha. Nothing ever changes in pool. The stories are always the same, just the names of the writers are changed.

Everyone thinks that Kevin Trudeau was trying to pull a great hustle on the pool players. Well, the biggest hustle ever pulled on the players is league play. They just keep dangling that carrot in front of the players.

At least KT did pay out a whole bunch of money to the pros. Even after getting stiffed in the last tournament most of them still made out like bandits.

Jake

Rich R.
05-19-2007, 07:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> all i got to say if no handi in playoff they why have a handi in the season. its ether sandbag or get some players on your team that have never played pool before. in our case we did both. fist over all season first over all playoffs. its like pro teams trying to get a good draft pick.
p.s. with my handi i also won lots of money games becouse of my stats. they here about my stats and are willing to give me a game or 2 even been spoted the 7 ball againdt players i need no handi against lol. thats pool <hr /></blockquote>
If you are sandbagging, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. You are cheating, like all of the other sandbaggers. Don't complain about others when you are doing the same yourself.

My team does very well in our APA division. We do not sandbag and we are always in the running for the division championship. To be honest, we don't do well when we get to the regional playoffs, but on that level, we are not familiar with the teams, so I can't say they have sandbagged to get to that position. We play the best pool we can play and let the chips fall. If it takes sandbagging to win the trip to the APA Nationals, I guess we will never go, but we are alright with that. We know we didn't cheat to get there.

MrLucky
05-20-2007, 05:40 AM
I have to second these thoughts ! In a league division that has a GOOD League Operator you will not find sandbagging as a normal event! If the LO does not work and run his division properly and lets teams get away with improper scoring ! ..in example not marking defenses / 8 out of turn ecetera ! You will find that handicaps are not going to be accurate! IMO and having been in the league since the old Busch / Bush league days /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I will go on to add that many do not take into account when in regional, City and National Playoffs that not only (as Rich pointed out) you will be playing teams that you have not faced before but more importantly the handicaps will be further skewed since If I am playing in Oshkos WI I may be rated a 7SL but in say Atlanta I may be a 5 SL simply because everyone is ranked relative and or versus their competition! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

canadan
05-20-2007, 11:00 AM
I still dont see it as cheating. I see it as just getting pissed drunk during league night. Having a good time. knowing we will take first. Teams can sandbag all they want. but can the pick up there shorts when it comes down to it. Maybe the problem is the team just thinking ya we can play at that level but cant. then get beat bad and get handis that sky rocket. It's just un fair to compeat with teams with high handis. Your fighting for first. they're fighting to get out of the basement. becouse of the high and low handis the first place team will have a very tough time takeing the worst team in the league. you know what I mean its the shits when the biggest comp is the bottom feeders

canadan
05-20-2007, 11:01 AM
thats why we sandbag to have a fair chance against the bottom feeders.

Rich R.
05-20-2007, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I still dont see it as cheating. I see it as just getting pissed drunk during league night. Having a good time. knowing we will take first. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> thats why we sandbag to have a fair chance against the bottom feeders. <hr /></blockquote>

This is exactly why you are part of the problem. It is flat out cheating and you don't see anything wrong with it.
Sandbagging = Cheating, there is no excuse for it.

A handicapped league is set up to give all players, regardless of skill level, an equal shot at winning. When a team, like yours, sandbags to insure an win, that is flat out cheating.

pooltchr
05-20-2007, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I still dont see it as cheating. I see it as just getting pissed drunk during league night. Having a good time. knowing we will take first. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> thats why we sandbag to have a fair chance against the bottom feeders. <hr /></blockquote>

This is exactly why you are part of the problem. It is flat out cheating and you don't see anything wrong with it.
Sandbagging = Cheating, there is no excuse for it.

A handicapped league is set up to give all players, regardless of skill level, an equal shot at winning. When a team, like yours, sandbags to insure an win, that is flat out cheating. <hr /></blockquote>

Rich, if we could give rep points here, you would get all of them I could give for this post!!!!!
TAP TAP TAP!!!!
Steve

canadan
05-20-2007, 05:59 PM
dont be mad rich, IF YOU CANT BEAT THEM JOIN THEM.

Rich R.
05-20-2007, 07:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> dont be mad rich, IF YOU CANT BEAT THEM JOIN THEM. <hr /></blockquote>
Don't worry, I won't get mad. I also won't join them.
I also know that I don't cheat to win. Winning is a lot less important than my integrity.

Rich R.
05-20-2007, 07:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>Rich, if we could give rep points here, you would get all of them I could give for this post!!!!!
TAP TAP TAP!!!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Steve.

BLACKHEART
05-20-2007, 09:32 PM
The system is at fault. I captain an APA team. I have a player that went to Vegas as a 3. She won there &amp; was moved to a 4. Each time she played AFTER that she lost. She has NEVER won as a 4. She is LOCKED IN AS A 4. She can never go back to a 3, because the RECORDS show that she won, at a higher level as a 4. SHE DIDN'T. She played this session 8 times &amp; lost &amp; yet she can never go down. SO, we sandbagged a couple of our players, to make the 23 point handicap. Who is wrong?...JER

Snapshot9
05-21-2007, 02:36 AM
The idea behind sandbagging is to keep yourself in position to always win, especially the most important matches. Some may just call it strategy or planning ahead within the rules.

Not everyone is good at sandbagging, and many fall short.
Running up the inning count in a game, and still being able to win is a hard thing to do. It takes a great deal of knowledge about your own abilities and the abilities of your opponent. It almost becomes an art form ... LOL

If not an inning count, then winning by just a ball or 2 difference is equally as hard. It is a learned art form that comes naturally for those players that have hustled
in the past. You might go so far as to say it is the nature of the beast.

It helps a player maintain the status quo, and will win him/her a lot more money in the long run. But, like I said, it can backfire on a player.

It also allows a player to be a darkhorse on a bigger stage.

Whether it is ethical or not depends on how you look at it, but there are many things about Pool that aren't particularly ethical, but they still exist.

Rich R.
05-21-2007, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> The system is at fault. I captain an APA team. I have a player that went to Vegas as a 3. She won there &amp; was moved to a 4. Each time she played AFTER that she lost. She has NEVER won as a 4. She is LOCKED IN AS A 4. She can never go back to a 3, because the RECORDS show that she won, at a higher level as a 4. SHE DIDN'T. She played this session 8 times &amp; lost &amp; yet she can never go down. SO, we sandbagged a couple of our players, to make the 23 point handicap. Who is wrong?...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, I have known players who were unfairly locked at a higher skill level and they can be unlocked and lowered. I don't know the details of how this is done, so I recommend you talk to your LO. If the LO doesn't give you any satisfaction, you may want to contact the national offices. The situations I am aware of were all handled by our LO and it didn't go any farther.
The system ain't perfect, but it does work when cheaters are not involved.

jjinfla
05-21-2007, 07:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I still dont see it as cheating. <hr /></blockquote>

Neither do I canadan. In fact I consider it intelligent play. You guys do want to play to win don't you. This is team play remember. You want the team to win. so you sacrifice a few players along the way. You do what is best for the team.

If you really want to play to win go play in the Masters. Or the KBP.

Sandbagging, or controlling your handicap, is really easy in 9 ball. All you have to do is watch the total team points and keep track of where your team is in the standings. And just barely win or lose.

Keep in mind a very, very bad loss by a player will not even count and actually could move a player up. Not many players understand that. Maybe one of the math professors here will explain it to you.

The truth be known. The only people who get hurt by sandbaggers are the founders of the league since by design if a player does not sandbag and moves up then his team can't keep him/her due to the 23 rule and he has to find other players and form his/her own team. Which means more money for the founders.

Really, how long should it take for a player to advance to an SL5? Once your team is all SL5's you have to disband.

Also, keep in mind if a player can't advance above a SL6 he/she really is a piss poor player and doesn't know the first thing about pool.

Jake

BLACKHEART
05-21-2007, 08:03 AM
I asked the LO to check the records &amp; as always the answer was "I only enter the numbers &amp; the computer tells me she's locked in as a 4". I went over her head once before &amp; contacted the APA headquarters. I got my player back to his old handicap, but payed the price. She raised 3 of my players the next week...JER

MrLucky
05-21-2007, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I still dont see it as cheating. <hr /></blockquote>

Neither do I canadan. In fact I consider it intelligent play. You guys do want to play to win don't you. This is team play remember. You want the team to win. so you sacrifice a few players along the way. You do what is best for the team.

If you really want to play to win go play in the Masters. Or the KBP.

Sandbagging, or controlling your handicap, is really easy in 9 ball. All you have to do is watch the total team points and keep track of where your team is in the standings. And just barely win or lose.

Keep in mind a very, very bad loss by a player will not even count and actually could move a player up. Not many players understand that. Maybe one of the math professors here will explain it to you.

The truth be known. The only people who get hurt by sandbaggers are the founders of the league since by design if a player does not sandbag and moves up then his team can't keep him/her due to the 23 rule and he has to find other players and form his/her own team. Which means more money for the founders.

Really, how long should it take for a player to advance to an SL5? Once your team is all SL5's you have to disband.

Also, keep in mind if a player can't advance above a SL6 he/she really is a piss poor player and doesn't know the first thing about pool.

Jake <hr /></blockquote> <font color="green"> One mans perception of "smart play" when it comes to cheating whether it be sharking, sandbagging or any other unethical act in a sport is just a cheaters way of making himself feel good about what he is doing! JMO! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif signed .. A APA captain that has been to the nationals 4 times over the years without the aid of having to CHEAT I know the teams I played on have all really savored our wins and accomplishments even more so because we were able to beat the cheaters ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

canadan
05-21-2007, 10:45 AM
I was going to leave this thread alown and talk about it with local players, but from what I've read our leagues sound very dif. we have no handi cap in the playoffs. the only thing sandbagging does in our league is get you a fair pos. for play offs and a nice big trophy for first in season. but you also lose out on the individual trophys ie. most runout highest win ave. ect. But the way you call it cheating is like calling playing safe cheating another fave part of my game, or useing a jump cue, or shooting the oppiste ball to make a cluster or take away a break out ball. I ask my self did sandbagging help us win the $6500 for the team? no we beat the 2nd 4th 5th and 6th place teams in the playoffs str8 up. and it was a 1st overall vs 2nd overall finals.so maybe its bad in your league but it really has no adv. in ours. Also it doesn't mater if your the worst player on the team or the best everyone gets moved up the next season. But to let you know I'm not going to be the sandbager next year. we are going to bring in 2 weaker player and let them play in the reg season and it will be the top line up in playoffs unless 1 of them really improve over the season.

jjinfla
05-21-2007, 12:27 PM
Mr Lucky,

You must have a team composed of 2,3,and 4's who just never practice and just can't play pool. So they never get better. But in the APA that is ideal. I have a friend who has been a 4 forever. He just can't play pool, but he thinks he can beat Ray Martin because he took a couple lessons from him. The guy makes two, three good shots followed by two, three terrible shots. He doesn't have the foggiest idea of how to sandbag, or the proper way to play the game. Yet his team has been to Vegas several times. Pure luck.

What the heck. If you enjoy the APA that is all that matters. It is something to do once or twice a week.

Jake

MrLucky
05-21-2007, 01:00 PM
I have no problem at all with safes in eight or any other pool game I began and learned to play pool with straight pool a game of finesse and safeties ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I do not jump balls but I have no problem with it I just learned pool the ole school way ! I realize it is a handy tool to have but I also am good at kicks and masse so it isn't yet in my repertoire I I suppose I feel strongly about manipulating your players handicaps because I do notand have had to compete against those that do! ....

and yes Jjinfla I have a 2 that is a old lady (about 62 ) who has been in the league almost as long as myself she hoovers between a 2-3 she is a decent 3 at times but obviously not consistant enough to stay there I have three 6 sl's a strong 5 and two 4's and one other 3 who is getting better and will soon be a 4!

MrLucky
05-21-2007, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> I ask my self did sandbagging help us win the $6500 for the team? no we beat the 2nd 4th 5th and 6th place teams in the playoffs str8 up. and it was a 1st overall vs 2nd overall finals.so maybe its bad in your league but it really has no adv. in ours. Also it doesn't mater if your the worst player on the team or the best everyone gets moved up the next season. But to let you know I'm not going to be the sandbager next year. we are going to bring in 2 weaker player and let them play in the reg season and it will be the top line up in playoffs unless 1 of them really improve over the season. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually it was an advantage since if your players were at their correct handicap level you most likely either would not have been able to post them the way you did ! or they would have played other shooters more accurately rated ! JMO!
Peace ! Phil

canadan
05-21-2007, 02:50 PM
good point mr lucky my bad.

canadan
05-21-2007, 02:56 PM
well I'm off to play a local amateur pool tour qualifyer with no handi and I should get killed wish the sandbagger luck lol

MrLucky
05-21-2007, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> well I'm off to play a local amateur pool tour qualifyer with no handi and I should get killed wish the sandbagger luck lol <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green"> Well since it will be a fair fight and a good challenge I wish you luck! I do not have anything against you or your team since I understand the pressure and desire to win! I just feel sorry for the teams that you played that may have been trying to do the right thing
Peace </font color>

jjinfla
05-22-2007, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr>

and yes Jjinfla I have a 2 that is a old lady (about 62 ) who has been in the league almost as long as myself she hoovers between a 2-3 she is a decent 3 at times but obviously not consistant enough to stay there I have three 6 sl's a strong 5 and two 4's and one other 3 who is getting better and will soon be a 4! <hr /></blockquote>

Three 6's? No team wants that.

Time for your bottom 5 players to start sandbagging. Ha Ha. Too late for the 6's. Can you imagine what will happen to your team if all five of the bottom players move up one SL? That is the reward of improving your game in the APA - the team has to break up.

Good luck with your team but it looks like you are doomed.

If you are depending on your 6's to win the match for you then eventually their win's will make them a 7. then because of the pressure a weak 7 will fold under pressure and lose his match and your team will lose and you will wonder why you are carrying a 7. A 7 is no good to the team unless he wins every time he plays.

Ah, isn't it fun?

Jake

Jager85
05-22-2007, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
You guys do want to play to win don't you.
Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Yes and no! Yes, I do want to win. No, that is not my main goal. My goal is to get better and accomplish something. I take pride in what I do. I could play APA as a 4 and beat anyone in my path, but did I accomplish anything? Not really, playing as a 7 and playing others 7's straight up with no spot and winning is accomplishing something. Becoming a 7 is accomplishing something. I am a good 6 right now and hopefully soon to be a 7. Pool is my obsession and I am extatic at the thought of becoming a 7. My team does not want me to move up, but I do. Even winning nationals as a 4 would not mean much to me.

Curtis

wolfdancer
05-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Tim Gallway wrote "The Inner Game Of Tennis", and authored many other inner game topics.
He had an audio tape on winning, and said something to this effect: "if winning is so important to you...here's how to almost never lose again.......never, never, play anyone near your skill level"
You'll win, but it's a hollow victory because you haven't been challenged...your skills haven't been extended.
According to Tim, when you play someone, there's an unwritten contract that you'll both play your best to bring out the best in your opponent....and thus you'll both improve......
Sandbaggers might be playing someone at their real skill level, but they need the unfair advantage to insure their win.
Since it's so prevalent in the APA....maybe it has become an art form?
It would be an interesting match to watch two 7's, playing as 3's trying to dump to each other.....

Rich R.
05-22-2007, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Tim Gallway wrote "The Inner Game Of Tennis", and authored many other inner game topics.
He had an audio tape on winning, and said something to this effect: "if winning is so important to you...here's how to almost never lose again.......never, never, play anyone near your skill level"
You'll win, but it's a hollow victory because you haven't been challenged...your skills haven't been extended.
According to Tim, when you play someone, there's an unwritten contract that you'll both play your best to bring out the best in your opponent....and thus you'll both improve......
Sandbaggers might be playing someone at their real skill level, but they need the unfair advantage to insure their win.
Since it's so prevalent in the APA....maybe it has become an art form?
It would be an interesting match to watch two 7's, playing as 3's trying to dump to each other..... <hr /></blockquote>
Great post.

BLACKHEART
05-22-2007, 12:46 PM
When you are a 6 or 7 in APA, you have the LUXURY to go for a win every time at the table. Unfortuatly there is the 23 point team handicap to consider. You can be rightuous about your pride, but if the Captain allows everyone to go out &amp; win with as few ennings as possible, you will all be 5, 6 &amp; 7s. Since you can not meet the 23 point rule , as a team, you will not win anything. Therefore, it is up to those lowly 2, 3 &amp; 4s to sandbag, so that you can play all out for your pride...JER

Rich R.
05-22-2007, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> When you are a 6 or 7 in APA, you have the LUXURY to go for a win every time at the table. Unfortuatly there is the 23 point team handicap to consider. You can be rightuous about your pride, but if the Captain allows everyone to go out &amp; win with as few ennings as possible, you will all be 5, 6 &amp; 7s. Since you can not meet the 23 point rule , as a team, you will not win anything. Therefore, it is up to those lowly 2, 3 &amp; 4s to sandbag, so that you can play all out for your pride...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Jer, I have been playing in the APA for about 5 years, with the same team, and I have never heard my team captain tell anyone to sandbag in any way.
We have had some players leave and we have replaced them, but it had nothing to do with skill levels going up, just the natural business of life and people moving.
Maybe I'm lucky. I have a captain who doesn't worry about players moving up. On the other hand, we have several players who only play once a week and will probably never go up more than one level, without sandbagging at all. Everyone on my team tries their best in every match.
I think a lot depends on your league too. In a lot of bar box leagues in small areas, without a lot of serious players, it is easy to go up in skill levels. I play in an in house league, in a very large APA area, on 9' Gold Crowns, with a number of players who are at least semi serious about winning. Above the level 4, it is actually tough to go up. I've been a 6 for a couple of years and have been trying my best to go up and it hasn't happened.

Deeman3
05-22-2007, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> When you are a 6 or 7 in APA, you have the LUXURY to go for a win every time at the table. Unfortuatly there is the 23 point team handicap to consider. You can be rightuous about your pride, but if the Captain allows everyone to go out &amp; win with as few ennings as possible, you will all be 5, 6 &amp; 7s. Since you can not meet the 23 point rule , as a team, you will not win anything. Therefore, it is up to those lowly 2, 3 &amp; 4s to sandbag, so that you can play all out for your pride...JER <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> My take on handicaps leagues in golf, pool or any other imbalanced activity is that the better player should still have a slight edge. That encourages improvement over time by the less skilled players. I believe this is part of the reason there is so little improvement in APA as I think BCA does that to a slightly better degree. It seems that you are discouraged from building a good team for the long term if you have limits on maximum points in a match. I realy think players who stick it out in a non handicapped league will, over time, become much better players although short term, they will get hammered a lot. The message from even the APA commercial is '"it does not matter how you play, everyone will win!"

The sandbaggers are mostly learning to lose and that they have to pay a price for eventually anyway. I just don't play handicapped leagues or tournaments anymore. It's just not worth it. </font color>

KellyStick
05-22-2007, 08:06 PM
WOW and WOW lots of discussion on this topic! Never thought it would get this much discussion. Here are my takeaways,

1. Pool leages have sand baggin if there is handicapping. that Aint goin away. Yeah league operators and proper scoring might be able to put some curb on this but that is not even remotely going to stop it.

2. Sandbagging is smart strategy. In fact it is required if you want to be competitive in most cases at advanced levels (where handicaps exist). It is not ethical nor honest. It is cheating in fact. I would add that it is shameful and personnally degrading. But that is just an opinion of mine. But it is the way it is and not likely to change.

3. Sandbagging could be an art form. I have seen this. Discguising your sandbagging or being very inteligent with your not at all obvious personae and mistakes can be an art form, It can require intricate knowledge of the game to sandbag very well. Sometimes you might do things contrary to just simple losing and missing. There is acting involved and all sorts of subtle stealth. I can respect the knowledge of advanced sandbaggers. I don't repsect the individual however. So you can claim that You just play the game according to the situation. I for one would rather lose than be a loser (as in cheater, as in sandbagger).

4. Advancing is APA mean that if everyone gets good you may have to break up the team because you get HC bound. WE have 2 sixes. That is plenty for a given team. Breaking up the team because of handicaps kinda sucks. Don't know where to go with that. Other than I suspect this is a league economics things designed to continually bring in new players and you blood into the leage. It's all about money after all

5. If you wanna play heads up balls to the wall pool play without handicaps, play tournaments, play for money or do like I do and play at home with friends. even then though the intensity can be lacking. Looking for that competition high.

ras314
05-22-2007, 08:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> The sandbaggers are mostly learning to lose and that they have to pay a price for eventually anyway. I just don't play handicapped leagues or tournaments anymore. It's just not worth it. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I don't live close enough to any leagues to play in them, but I agree with the idea that sandbagging in them is akin to cheating. I actually like handicapped non team type tournaments though. If I'm playing a beginner I don't feel I have to give them much slack and a higher rated player encourages me to try a little more. The money in the handicapped tournaments I play in won't pay gas money, so it's all "for the love of the game" anyway.

Matching up one to one is a whole different ball of wax, but I seldom gamble these days.

Jager85
05-22-2007, 09:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> When you are a 6 or 7 in APA, you have the LUXURY to go for a win every time at the table. Unfortuatly there is the 23 point team handicap to consider. You can be rightuous about your pride, but if the Captain allows everyone to go out &amp; win with as few ennings as possible, you will all be 5, 6 &amp; 7s. Since you can not meet the 23 point rule , as a team, you will not win anything. Therefore, it is up to those lowly 2, 3 &amp; 4s to sandbag, so that you can play all out for your pride...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Not true. The 3's and 4's on my team are not good enough to become a 5+ SL even if they wanted to. Everyone on our team plays to win for team points. All 2s 3s and 4s are not good enough to be 5+ SL as you are saying. Those that are should not be a 2, 3, or 4 in the first place then and are technically cheating. I started the league last session as a 4, as all do, and I could have stayed there if I really wanted to, but it is not worth anything to me.

Great Post wolfdancer. I couldn't have said it better.

Curtis

BLACKHEART
05-22-2007, 09:33 PM
We have 4s &amp; 5s in our APA league that play for $25-$50 a game. Tell me they are not sandbaggers. I have a 7,three 5s, two 4s, a 2 &amp; a 3 on my team. The 2 won 4 out of 10 matches &amp; was moved to a 3. The 3 won 6 out of 10 &amp; was moved to a 4. Both of these players were playing their 1st setion of APA. There is no way that these players should be moved up, with this kind of winning percentage. If the league doesn't play fare, you can expect cheating...JER

MrLucky
05-23-2007, 05:36 AM
very well stated, your analysis is right on as far as I am concerned! It is cheating ! and like anything else where Money and / or Glory are the rewards, no matter what The Leagues and The League Operators do some people / Teams will find ways to exploit the system! It is unethical, immoral and the sign of a weak personal character but these things exist in every facet of life whether we are talking big business or little small endeavors there are those that want to find an easy way to beat the rules! If I offend any readers of this then at least that means you still have a conscience, there are those that look at their cheating and breaking the rules as a badge of honor in fact they tell themselves that those that do not cheat are chumps and should be looked down upon for working hard and playing hard within the rules!
Sadly this attitude is endemic to the world we now all live in and it will not change in the Pool Leagues or in any other rewarded endeavor! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

MrLucky
05-23-2007, 05:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> We have 4s &amp; 5s in our APA league that play for $25-$50 a game. Tell me they are not sandbaggers. I have a 7,three 5s, two 4s, a 2 &amp; a 3 on my team. The 2 won 4 out of 10 matches &amp; was moved to a 3. The 3 won 6 out of 10 &amp; was moved to a 4. Both of these players were playing their 1st setion of APA. There is no way that these players should be moved up, with this kind of winning percentage. If the league doesn't play fare, you can expect cheating...JER <hr /></blockquote> <font color="green"> I totally disagree with your blaming the League ! as a Captain you should know that your players move up (unless they are tagged for sandbagging) because they win in low innings and or use / are marked for many defenses ! This is the only way the system can set a standard for handicapping hundreds of thousands of players ! and be any where close to fair! The games won and lost / The innings played / the defenses used per match! ( a 2/3/4SL that is racking up 6-8 or more defenses I am sure you would agree is playing at a higher level than a player of that level should be! No the system isn't perfect and Yes some get raised / lowered incorrectly but all in all it is the best way over all to keep the playing field level and to rate those that are "playing by the rules" !</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

New2Pool
05-23-2007, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> We have 4s &amp; 5s in our APA league that play for $25-$50 a game. Tell me they are not sandbaggers. I have a 7,three 5s, two 4s, a 2 &amp; a 3 on my team. The 2 won 4 out of 10 matches &amp; was moved to a 3. The 3 won 6 out of 10 &amp; was moved to a 4. Both of these players were playing their 1st setion of APA. There is no way that these players should be moved up, with this kind of winning percentage. If the league doesn't play fare, you can expect cheating...JER <hr /></blockquote> <font color="green"> I totally disagree with your blaming the League ! as a Captain you should know that your players move up (unless they are tagged for sandbagging) because they win in low innings and or use / are marked for many defenses ! This is the only way the system can set a standard for handicapping hundreds of thousands of players ! and be any where close to fair! The games won and lost / The innings played / the defenses used per match! ( a 2/3/4SL that is racking up 6-8 or more defenses I am sure you would agree is playing at a higher level than a player of that level should be! No the system isn't perfect and Yes some get raised / lowered incorrectly but all in all it is the best way over all to keep the playing field level and to rate those that are "playing by the rules" !</font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>

OK, I am new to all this so I am reading the forums to learn. I am following the discussion pretty well so far but there is one thing I don't understand. Why does it matter how many times a player uses a defense? If I use a defensive shot a lot but I don't do it well and I lose then I am more likely to move up than someone else who never uses a defensive shot but wins most of the time? That seems pretty lame, what am I missing?

KellyStick
05-23-2007, 11:16 AM
New2pool

If you don't mark defenses then these get counted as innings that the player failed to make a ball on. As if he had tried but failed because of inability thus his handicap stays low. On the other hand an intentional defensive shot is potentially a skill shot and should not be counted as a missed shot. Otherwise there would be no 6s or 7s. we would all just put several deadly defenses in until we had enough innings to stay 3s or 4s. Everyone could be a 3. There would be no handicap system.

New2Pool
05-23-2007, 02:21 PM
KellyStick,
Thanks, that makes sense.

KellyStick
05-24-2007, 11:22 AM
Well I'm just so pleased to have been promoted from "stranger" to the much more noble rank of "Newbie" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cydpkt
05-24-2007, 01:32 PM
I ran into a new person who joined the APA. He is now a 7 and a 9 (8 ball and 9 ball). But because he just started out he was a 4 for both. He was intentionally playing with a lot of innings to stay low and be able to shoot two of their higher ranked players on the same night. When I played him I called a safety on every shot. Thus we ended up with negative innings for that night and he did move up the following week. Was what I did right? I would say no but they were basically playing 3 top players each week instead of the two they should have been able to. They manipulated their scores so I assisted in countering it. Once I told him why I was calling a safe on each shot he didn't try to drag the games along.

BigRigTom
05-24-2007, 05:32 PM
Calling a safe on every shot is an interesting techique.
Never thought of that one.
Maybe I'll try it myself on a know sandbagger.
Thanks

Cydpkt
05-24-2007, 09:28 PM
One of our other league members used it to move him up to a skill level 9. He is a good player but in my opinion doesn't play consistant enough to be there. (He has broken 3 cues this year with his temper) He just keeps enough safeties in the match to keep the skill level. When I first became a 9, I was picking and choosing each night if I felt like I was shooting well. I also limited my matches to 6's or higher. I have finally gotten past that and am willing to play anyone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif APA is unique where you can call the safety and make one of your object balls and still keep shooting.

nnn
05-24-2007, 10:14 PM
thanks for starting this post KellyStick. It's good reading!

I am fairly new to pool, so I am a low ranked APA player. So I don't have the experience of others, but I did read through the little booklet and our league handout and I know that both says "no sandbagging."

So, I'm sorry, but it's a game, and it's only fun if you follow the rules, so no sandbagging! Otherwise we'd all just climb on the table and stuff the balls in, right? I mean, if you're gonna say it's ok to break one rule...what's next?

I understand sandbagging to be playing below your level and fooling others to manipulate the results. Isn't that the definition of a hustle?

canadan
05-25-2007, 01:16 AM
And the leagues you mark. nicer payout then any hustle I was involed in lol

BLACKHEART
05-25-2007, 08:49 AM
I've played 8 ball, in APA since 1982. Whether you call a safty or not, when you make a ball, you have to keep shooting. What kind of league are you in?...JER

Cydpkt
05-25-2007, 10:29 AM
Although I referenced being a 9 to be 9 ball, my true meaning was that in 8 ball if you call a safety and pocket one of your object balls you have to keep shooting. Other leagues don't play with this rule. Sorry for the lack of clarity on that post. In either 8 ball or 9 ball (APA) even if you call a safety and then; with a legal hit, pocket an object ball then you keep shooting.