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Ross
07-24-2002, 11:37 AM
I am curious about how others aim the two-rail kick. For example:
START(%GM1I8%HD4M1%IK8M7%PK4P4%WC9H3%XJ6P0%YE8D3%Z C1G3%[L1I0%\F3C3)END

A common way is to find the half-way point between the cb and ob, draw a line from that point to the pocket, then aim the cb parallel to that line. If you do this using follow, you will end up a bit wide of the ob. I compensate for this by finding the parallel line, then shifting my aim in an inch or two. I shift it more the farther the ob is from the rail, but it is still a rough guess on my part. Instructor Tom Ross writes that instructor Tom Rossman (I know, weird, huh?) recommends (www.cuetimes.com/Articles/Tom_Ross/2002/0402_Article.htm) using the parallel aiming line but with a half tip of follow and a tip of running english. This does not seem to work without the compensation shift I mentioned.
So do you use the parallel shift method, some other method, or just go by feel?
Do you add a compensation, and if so how do you determine how much to compensate?
What kind of english do you prefer for this shot?
Does the shallowness of the approach on the first rail affect the amount of compensation/english needed?
Enquiring minds want to know!

07-24-2002, 01:05 PM
I just go by feel. I'm most successful when i don't even go round the table, and attempt to judge the angle, so i guess this ain't much help to you.
Why do you english at all? Unless you need to make an angle that isn't there, surely just hitting the ball dead weight will make it easier to judge...?

phil in sofla
07-24-2002, 02:56 PM
I use Rossman's method. The one tip side (the running side) and the half tip high are to tighten up the lines, which otherwise would forever send you wide of the mark, using that measuring method and hitting with center ball.

Until I reviewed that tape, I was using more than a tip of side, and more than a half tip of high, and that was periodically missing the kick. Toning that down to what he recommends made it far more reliable. Note also, if the cue ball and the object ball being kicked to are in different lengthwise halves of the table, he recommends using no side, and just the half tip of high. I interpret that to apply also if both the cue ball and object ball are in the same half of the table, but you have to go into the two rails on the opposite end of the table to come back to make the kick.

What you are doing with the adjustment should allow you to hit center ball and make the hit. You shouldn't have to make the adjustment to that line AND also use the running English, IMO. Trying the adjust to the short side of that line without English worked nicely for me when I tried it.

07-24-2002, 03:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> I use Rossman's method. The one tip side (the running side) and the half tip high are to tighten up the lines...<hr></blockquote>Are you guys and Rossman considering one tip to be per Diagram A or B as illustrated in http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=25552&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1 ?

Ross
07-24-2002, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Egg:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: phil in sofla:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; I use Rossman's method. The one tip side (the running side) and the half tip high are to tighten up the lines...&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Are you guys and Rossman considering one tip to be per Diagram A or B as illustrated in <a target="_blank" href=http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=25552&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1>http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccbboard&amp;Number=25552&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1</a> ? <hr></blockquote>
As reported by Tom Ross, you can get a feel for one-tip side english as follows:
Shoot the cb from the head spot to the center diamond at the other end of the table. One tip of right english will cause the cue ball to hit the long rail just past the side pocket. Hit with just enough speed so that it comes back down table and rebounds off the end cushion about a diamond.

He recommends you practice this with both left and right english to get a feel for it. I don't know how that translates into how far off center you hit, though.

NH_Steve
07-24-2002, 07:24 PM
I've got a different system -- kind of a two-rail variation of the 'mirror system' for one rail banks or kicks. Draw an imaginary diagonal line from your object ball through the corner of the table (the corner you will be going around the obstacle past) and you will find the imaginary aiming target equadistant from that corner. Maybe easiest to see if you walk around that corner and lay down your stick along that imaginary diagonal line, then sight backwards towards your cue ball from the equadistant point off in space beyond the corner. You will still need to adjust for english &amp; speed 'cuz of cushion distortion though, like others have mentioned.

An interesting observation about this system is that the imaginary target off in space along that diagonal line is theoretically the very same aiming point to hit that particular object ball no matter where on the pool table your cue ball is! Try it. Old timers used to take advantage of this little known fact to secretly 'mark' certain key spots on the wall near their favorite tables to assist in aiming for two or three rail banks! (I believe it works for 3 railers by giving you the right contact point on the 3rd rail) Ooops, I've said too much /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

07-24-2002, 08:03 PM
any chance you can use weis table to demonstrate this?

cheesemouse
07-24-2002, 09:58 PM
DNH_Steve,
I use this system all the time. I know it as the off the table diamond system. It is super for one rail banks and kicking the CB. I hardly ever hit a bank of kick w/o running it through the 'Off the table diamond system. It is very difficult to explain w/o a table to demonstrate it. If anybody asks me what syetem I'm using I tell them it is the 'upside down belly button mirror system' heeheheheheheh /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

NH_Steve
07-25-2002, 05:53 AM
Tough to show on the WEI table, because your imaginary aiming point is off the table! I have edited the illustration in the opening post to replace the target ball with the letter 'A', and added the start of that line through corner 'B' -- it would continue to aiming point 'C' (which I cannot show, because it is off the table). Imagine a line drawn from target 'A' through corner 'B', then continuing in the same line to aiming point 'C', where the distance from 'A' to 'B' is the same as 'B' to 'C' -- all in a line A-B-C. Aim at 'C' to go two rails to hit target 'A'. Whewww!

START(
%GN0J4%HD4M1%IK8M7%PK4P4%QL5I4%RB8B8%S^4_1%UB5B6%V M4J1%WC9H3
%XJ6P0%YE8D3%ZC1G3%[L1I0%\F3C3
)END

The link to WEI:
<a target="_blank" href=http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html>http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html</a>

heater451
07-25-2002, 10:21 AM
Is this the same system as imagining tables placed next to each other, until you have an imaginary pocket in the right place (if that makes sense)?

If it is, I have seen a site with diagrams in the past, but can't seem to find it now. I will post a link, if/when I find them again.

***EDIT***

This is not what I found before, but it's a similar concept:

http://www.jimy.org/pool/kicks.pdf

Jay M
07-25-2002, 10:44 AM
Personally, I would rarely shoot that way unless the OB was close to the rail. There is too much room for error. From billiards experience, I know that the 7 is a two way shot playing the three rail kick.

The 7 is lying directly on the "natural" 3 rail kick and even if I am long for some reason, the cue can hit as far away from the pocket as the beginning of the green arrow on my diagram and still get the hit.

I try to play the odds at all times and to me, the odds are better going the long way than to try to play the short two rail kick.

START(
%GM1I8%HD4M1%IK8M7%PJ8P0%Ui3Z6%Vr9P9%W^7C9%XJ6P0%Y E4D0%ZC9E3
%[N2H5%\F3C3%]r6P1%^_9C9%bC5C8%cY8Q7%dh6[2
)END

As I said, if the ball were closer to the second rail (within a ball width or so), I'd try the two railer, but then I am just kicking behind the ball and not AT the ball.

Jay M

Ross
07-25-2002, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> Personally, I would rarely shoot that way unless the OB was close to the rail. There is too much room for error. From billiards experience, I know that the 7 is a two way shot playing the three rail kick.

The 7 is lying directly on the "natural" 3 rail kick and even if I am long for some reason, the cue can hit as far away from the pocket as the beginning of the green arrow on my diagram and still get the hit.

I try to play the odds at all times and to me, the odds are better going the long way than to try to play the short two rail kick.

START(
%GM1I8%HD4M1%IK8M7%PJ8P0%Ui3Z6%Vr9P9%W^7C9%XJ6P0%Y E4D0%ZC9E3
%[N2H5%\F3C3%]r6P1%^_9C9%bC5C8%cY8Q7%dh6[2
)END

As I said, if the ball were closer to the second rail (within a ball width or so), I'd try the two railer, but then I am just kicking behind the ball and not AT the ball.

Jay M <hr></blockquote>
Interesting-- I need to keep more open to the 3 rail possibility.

But what if the ob is not on the natural 3-rails to the corner track. For example:
START(%GJ7Q0%HE3N6%IK9M8%PL9L1)END

Would you go 1, 2, or 3 rails here?

phil in sofla
07-25-2002, 01:37 PM
The reason to use English on any of these systems is so that you can use an exact line that doesn't quite get to the kick if you use no English.

That is, on this two-railer, this system aim line gives you the geometrical first track line that would make the kick if the incoming/outgoing cue ball tracks were parallel. However, without English, the outgoing track line diverges out from the parallel line, the angle opening up, so that you'd miss that ball wide.

So, the choice once you get the line from this system is to adjust the first rail hit short of the line a skoshe (a technical exact amount we use in pool, LOL!), so that when the line diverges, it hits the object ball, OR, use the same exact hit line the system yields, and make up that difference with the English.

There are some kicking systems that require using no English (the SID system for kicking one rail lengthwise to a ball on the rail), but almost all others I've seen use some English, at least running, or even more. So, really, your question boils down to why use a system for these kicks, instead of getting a feel for the kick with a flat ball.

And that is a question that system players and feel players may vary on.

Chris Cass
07-25-2002, 01:51 PM
Hi Jay,

Your kidding right? You would shoot the three rail hit for the doe?

Regards,

C.C.~~wow

Rod
07-25-2002, 03:14 PM
Jay i agree with you. The ball is not hard to hit 2 rails but the chance of a safe would not be in my favor. The 7 would almost have to be left next to a side rail. At that angle sending it to the other end rail is a difficult opion. If I felt the shot was on for for a three rail as it is here then I'd take that shot. At any rate it keeps it at the business end and with 2 other balls there anything can happen. Either way I'd have to think I'm in trouble.

Rod
07-25-2002, 03:30 PM
Ross,
If I used the parallel system, it works best for me with 2 tips of center right english. When you move the line over it creates the same sort of effect with less english. In the end for me it still is a feel shot, especially if I tried to send the 7 to a safe position. I really don't like the shot.

Rod
07-25-2002, 03:54 PM
Ross, I'd have to shoot this two rails. I like the odds better safety wise than a one rail, although a safety is possible either direction. A three rail is not a good choice, the side pocket gets in the way. The two rail into the right lower corner can be hit fairly easy, but I would be concerned with a c/b scratch. Just my thinking or sometimes lack of. lol

cheesemouse
07-25-2002, 05:00 PM
If I was feeling real lucky and was up in the match I might dart the bank in the side, it may come with shape.

Jay M
07-25-2002, 05:06 PM
1 rail. the two rail isn't on a natural line. the three rail IS on a line that can be hit, but it's a one way shot, if you miss it, there's no chance of coming at it from behind.


You're pretty well screwed in this situation, so you might as well play the 7 to make it. Your odds of making the ball are the best with the single rail bank in this situation.


Oh, and Chris, yes, I would definitely play the three rail shot with the previous layout. Ask anyone that's played against me how many times I come up with "miraculous" shots to get out when they saw an easy one-rail kick for the hit.

Jay M&lt;~~~~ better lucky than good, but I prefer both...

bluewolf
07-26-2002, 08:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> If I was feeling real lucky and was up in the match I might dart the bank in the side, it may come with shape. <hr></blockquote>

When i do stuff in pool, lots of times i dont know the labels for it and then have to show my husband what i did and ask him what it is called

so on this i am confused. how is this different from a double bank shot?

Bluewolf

heater451
07-26-2002, 09:15 AM
Are you asking the difference between a "double-bank", and a "2-rail kick"?

A bank shot is cue ball to object ball, to rail, and then pocket (or more rails).

A kick shot is cue ball to rail(s), and then to the object ball.


(I know that "everybody knows that", but I figured I would answer the assumed question, instead of waiting on a reply, in case my assumption was correct.)

**EDIT**

I just found this: http://www.uni-loc.com/terms.htm


====================

Ross
07-26-2002, 09:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Ross,
If I used the parallel system, it works best for me with 2 tips of center right english. When you move the line over it creates the same sort of effect with less english. In the end for me it still is a feel shot, especially if I tried to send the 7 to a safe position. I really don't like the shot. <hr></blockquote>

When there is some distance between the parallel kick lines (like START(
%GO0J7%HE3N6%IL5M2%PI5P2%WC4H6%XI0O5%YG1D1%ZC0G9%[M9I9%\G8C9%eC1a1)END) the side english shortens up the angle enough to get the job done for me.

But when the parallel lines are closer together (START(%GL7L5%HE3N6%IK3N4%PJ7Q1%UO2L4%VF1C6%WC5F5% XJ1P2%YE1D0%ZC0E7%eC1a1)END my two-rail kick goes wide no matter how much running english I put on it. I assume this last setup may be too acute to hit for a two rail shot?

cheesemouse
07-26-2002, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: bluewolf:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: cheesemouse:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; If I was feeling real lucky and was up in the match I might dart the bank in the side, it may come with shape. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When i do stuff in pool, lots of times i dont know the labels for it and then have to show my husband what i did and ask him what it is called

so on this i am confused. how is this different from a double bank shot?

Bluewolf <hr></blockquote>

Darting the bank would be a reference to jumping the CB over the nine onto the seven which would maybe one bank in the side pocket. Darting is a method of jumping close balls with the cueball; it refers to the way you hold the jumpstick, like throwing a dart........hope this helps, sorry for the confusion.

Rod
07-26-2002, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> If I was feeling real lucky and was up in the match I might dart the bank in the side, it may come with shape. <hr></blockquote>

I never feel that lucky Cheese, you must drink better stuff than I do. lol Even a few bottles of coors wouln't get me there. Well I have tried some pretty outrageous shots come to think of it. Maybe I have and just don't remember. Jumping that close is not part of my program though.

cheesemouse
07-26-2002, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I never feel that lucky Cheese, you must drink better stuff than I do. lol Even a few bottles of coors wouln't get me there. Well I have tried some pretty outrageous shots come to think of it. Maybe I have and just don't remember. Jumping that close is not part of my program though. <hr></blockquote>

Put me behind some good brandy with beers back and I will shot any shot that pops into my head...LOL LOL...I'm a giggler too /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Chris Cass
07-26-2002, 02:20 PM
Well Jay,

You can take me off your hit list, but I'd sure like to see you do that to someone else. LOL Keeping my doe in my pocket.

Regards,

C.C.~~mental note: stay away from Jay, anyone who shoots that shot, I don't need to play. hahaha

Ross
07-26-2002, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Well Jay,

You can take me off your hit list, but I'd sure like to see you do that to someone else. LOL Keeping my doe in my pocket.

Regards,

C.C.~~mental note: stay away from Jay, anyone who shoots that shot, I don't need to play. hahaha <hr></blockquote>
C.C.,
Based on Jay's recommendation I tested the 3 railer yesterday for reliability compared to the 2 railer, and I'll be damn, it really did seem to have a larger margin of error than I would have expected. I never missed going 3 rails if ob was somewhat in line with the corner pocket. I did miss the 2 railer on occasion because of inconsistencies in applied english.

Ross ~ wondering if he should be pointing out this observation to a player who could probably give him the 5 out...

bluewolf
07-26-2002, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: bluewolf:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: cheesemouse:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; If I was feeling real lucky and was up in the match I might dart the bank in the side, it may come with shape.

&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

i heard about kick before but 2rail kick i never heard of.the way i was seeing it was ob on the rail and if you jumped cb over object ball, the cb would be in the floor, so that couldnt be right.

Bluewolf

Chris Cass
07-26-2002, 03:15 PM
Your killing me Ross. hahahah

Ross
07-27-2002, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Your killing me Ross. hahahah <hr></blockquote>

Your right! The 5-out is too little of a spot! Ok, I'll take the 5-out if you shoot one-handed with an eye-patch over your right eye. Oh yeah, you would have to wear boxing gloves, too. I would give that a try if only I could find someone to back me... /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Chris Cass
07-27-2002, 06:09 PM
Hi Ross,

You wouldn't be trying to steal, would you? Are you a friend of RJ's? I'll play ya some like that on a 6x12? Oh, no bridges allowed. Did Rod, or Cheese put you up to this? Never mind, I know it was Barbara. She likes my break. LOL No wait, this has all the markings of Scott Lee and JimS.

Regards,

C.C.~~only have one good eye and that's bad....

Rod
07-27-2002, 06:54 PM
Chris, leave me out of this, I'm not that kind of guy! lol
On the 6x12 playing golf, I'd spot you the 4th an 5th pocket, heck I might give away more, but I get Ball in Hand first shot! Think that might be interesting?
Teasing C.C. a bit. Oh did I mention you need to wear the eye patch. LOL

Chris Cass
07-28-2002, 08:00 PM
Ok Rod,

I'll be matching up with you. right. LOL Hey, I'm going to PM you and let you know what's going on with the eye thing. I don't want to bore the whole board. Just you. LOLLOL

Regards,

C.C.~~tisk tisk, picking on the blind....

SPetty
07-29-2002, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hey, I'm going to PM you and let you know what's going on with the eye thing. I don't want to bore the whole board. <hr></blockquote>Now wait a minute, Chris! You've told us all about your plans for the laser surgery and how when you get that laser surgery you'd be a good pool player /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Did you have the laser? Did you have a problem? If this is related to the laser surgery, it might be a good idea to bore the whole board...