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Drop1
06-02-2007, 08:11 PM
Why not phase it out,and tell young people,that it dosen't work. Half the working people in the U.S. have no retirement plan,and no insurance,that pays,and they think S.S. is going to support them.

cushioncrawler
06-02-2007, 09:34 PM
Harry -- Economics duznt work like that. Its like this. If 10,000,000 people are not working, and are on SS, then this has the same effect on the overall economy (and overall "cake") for americans as would 10,000,000 people with their own equal self-funded investments. It might be difficult to understand, but, money only cuts the cake, money is the knife, plus it determines the size of each slice (share). Like a knife, money duznt affect the size of the cake. Workers (and their real output) determine the overall size of the cake. Non-workers do not effect the size of the cake, no matter where or how or how-much SS dollars or dividend dollars or whatever dollars they get. madMac.

Drop1
06-03-2007, 01:55 PM
Mac, I'm not offering a solution,as you can note in my post. My object,is to say it ain't working,and any study on population,will tell you there will not be enough people working,to support the ones, who cannot work. [follow the money] Lets stop playing games with the future of our grand kids,and tell them they have to take care of themselves,and us. Follow the money back thirty years ago,and move up to today,we should be making more today than we did thirty years ago,well real spending power,or what we can purchase for a dollar has dropped thirteen percent,despite the continual increase in wages. Why do you think they call economics the dull science? We are the only industrialized nation without a workable plan for the sick,and elderly,and the candidates don't want to touch it after Hillary took a hit on the subject. You seem to be happy,how do they do it,where you live?

cushioncrawler
06-03-2007, 07:36 PM
Harry -- Its the same story in Ozz. The Liberals are in power (not small "l" liberals -- conservatives actually). They have been dismantling free education and free health, and introducing compulsory superannuation. Same bull applyz. They say we karnt afford to have all of that free pensioner SS stuff. Its amazing. Not many years ago experts were predicting 3 day working weeks, thanks to computers and automation etc, but, now we find that we are all having to work unpaid overtime. But, this investing stuff is economic bull. Its like this.....

Take a hypothetical BeeHive SF -- 1/10th of the bees have retired and self-funded, they eat honey but dont make any. These retirees have a red dyemark on their backs to show that they are retired and self-funded. They have their own money to buy honey.

In Beehive SS, 1/10th of the bees are retired allso, but are on social security. Likewize they eat honey but dont make any. They are given money for honey each week. They have blue dyemarks.

A close look into BeeHives SF and SS wouldnt show any obvious differences in how they function, and the wts of the honey-combs would be the same.

In both hives, the wt of honey is determined by how much is made each day, which is the same.

Perhaps the wt of honey in SF woz larger at the start of some sort of arbitrary period, due to the efforts of the retired bees while they were still working. For this to be true, then we would expect to see more honey coming in right now, every day, for the same reason. But, how can there be more honey coming in each day in SF?? What sort of extra effort or extra efficiency would be giving BeeHive SF this "extra" honey??

Would it bee koz the worker bees in SF spend a bit of time each day in front of a computer watching the stockmarket. No -- unless this woz done at night, it would actually dekreec the honey production.

Would it bee koz the SF workers saved a bit of their pay, and bort honey each week, and put the honey aside?? No -- the total wt of honey in BeeHive SF would be the same, the communal combs would be lighter, but the private combs would be heavyr.

Could it bee that the SF worker bees work more efficiently, or longer hours, or are smarter, or something. No -- the workers in BeeHive SS appear to be just as smart and productive, and they work from sunup to sundown.

In fact, a look into the honey records shows that BeeHive SF had a disaster in 1930, and this disaster lasted untill 1940. Surprizingly, the disaster actually ended when they were attacked by Asian bees. It happened like this. In 1929 the stock market went bezerk. The SF workers found that instead of buying honey, they could make money. So, instead of buying honey, they bort money to make money. Koz honey woznt selling, many bees stopped making. Unemployment and under-employment soared. The stock bubble burst, inevitably, and, koz the boss-bees didnt know anything about real economics, the unemployment continued to spiral, untill, thank god, the Asian bees attacked. Koodnt happen again. madMac.

Rich R.
06-03-2007, 08:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Why not phase it out,and tell young people,that it dosen't work. Half the working people in the U.S. have no retirement plan,and no insurance,that pays,and they think S.S. is going to support them. <hr /></blockquote>Social Security does work, the way it was originally intended to work, but not the way many people think it works. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Social Security was never intended to be the sole retirement income for people. It was meant to supplement private retirement plans and savings. The problem is, many people have not saved or prepared for retirement, in any way, and, when the time comes, they have no income other than Social Security. Those people have not done their part to prepare for retirement.

Also, what you and many others many not realize, is that their is a disability aspect to Social Security. A disabled worker, with enough quarters of Social Security coverage to make them eligible, gets benefits. His/her spouse and young children may also be eligible for benefits. There are many unfortunate cases, where a person in their twenties has become disabled and they get benefits under Social Security.

If you check with any insurance sales person, you will find out that you can not buy insurance coverage, equal to ALL of the coverage you have under Social Security, for the same price.

If there are any problems with Social Security, it is the fact that Congress, in election years, tends to add benefits without adding ways to pay for them. Congress has historically put a real strain on the Social Security system, while attempting to gain votes. Please note, I said "Congress" and not one particular party. Both parties are guilty.

One other thing is putting Social Security in a major bind. That is the fact that all of the "baby boom" generation is nearing retirement age. That will cause the biggest strain on the system.

Drop1
06-03-2007, 08:37 PM
My post makes no mention of self directed IRAs'as a course of action to provide for old age. How do you take care of the health of the bees,that are not in either ten percent. As a matter of fact,how do you take care of retired bees? I say if the lack of honey in the future,is a given,then the bees waiting to retire,and live for ever after on the labor of others,should be told,that there will not be enough honey to go around without a increase in worker bees,in the eighty percent group,as obviously both SS,and SF are going to increase in numbers.A long way to go for a simple concept /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cushioncrawler
06-03-2007, 09:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> My post makes no mention of self directed IRAs'as a course of action to provide for old age. How do you take care of the health of the bees,that are not in either ten percent. As a matter of fact,how do you take care of retired bees? I say if the lack of honey in the future,is a given,then the bees waiting to retire,and live for ever after on the labor of others,should be told,that there will not be enough honey to go around without a increase in worker bees,in the eighty percent group,as obviously both SS,and SF are going to increase in numbers.A long way to go for a simple concept /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Harry -- Real economics is even simpler than u think. If a lack of honey is (or bekumz) a real problem, i mean overall, i mean for the hive as a whole, then there is only one good answer -- the bee retirement age has to be raised. The fact that some of the bees here have amassed lots of $$$$ and lots of credits and lots of lovely valuable stocks will not put one little drop of honey in one little comb.

Remember, $$$$ and credits and stocks and stuff are the KNIFE, they are not even one little drop of HONEY.

Its fair enuff to say things like -- "we shood all prepare (save) for retirement" -- koz we all havta play the game by the rules, even if the rules are stupid, else we will get a smaller slice than we deserve.

Regarding the looming (growing) disproportionate number (ratio) of retirees-to-workers, this can be (will be) a definite problem. I guess that the bad ratio is due to a temporary or one-off glitch in the system. Even if it aint a glitch, then my arithmetic tells me that the ratio will max-out and then stay level (i think).

But, most of what everyone above is saying, when translated by an expert like myself, amounts to in effect....

.... We need more knives to cut the cake.
.... We need sharper knives.
.... We need bigger knives. etc etc etc etc. madMac.

Drop1
06-03-2007, 09:29 PM
The way it was originally intended,was corrupted a long time ago. I'm talking,about what we have,and if you take a look,it is what most people think is going to carry them in time of crisis,and thats not happening. I'm familiar with SS disability supplements. I think me Mother got $11.00 a month extra because of being blind. Only bet claiming races.

Rich R.
06-04-2007, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr>I'm familiar with SS disability supplements. I think me Mother got $11.00 a month extra because of being blind. <hr /></blockquote>
I think you may be confusing SS disability benefits with some other program. SS disability is a complete benefit package and not a supplement.
My wild guess is, you may be confused with Supplemental Security Income (SSI), which is NOT Social Security Disability. It is a totally different program. If I am correct, which is a small chance, your Mother may not have qualified for the Social Security benefit and she had a very low income, which would have made her qualify for the SSI benefit.

Qtec
06-04-2007, 08:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Social Security was never intended to be the sole retirement income for people. <hr /></blockquote>

If that's so, why would people buy into it?

Q

Rich R.
06-04-2007, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
Social Security was never intended to be the sole retirement income for people. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>If that's so, why would people buy into it?
<hr /></blockquote>
For the same reason they buy into most other Federal programs.
They have no choice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Oh yeah, like I said before, it is impossible to buy the same insurance coverage, with all of the same benefits, for the same price.

If you want to pick on Federal programs, there are many to choose from and I wouldn't argue with you. However Social Security is one program that does work, in the way it was intended to work. NO, it is not perfect and it does have problems, but it does work.

Rich R.
06-04-2007, 07:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr>
Social Security was never intended to be the sole retirement income for people. <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>If that's so, why would people buy into it?
<hr /></blockquote>
For the same reason they buy into most other Federal programs.
They have no choice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Oh yeah, like I said before, it is impossible to buy the same insurance coverage, with all of the same benefits, for the same price.

If you want to pick on Federal programs, there are many to choose from and I wouldn't argue with you. However Social Security is one program that does work, in the way it was intended to work. NO, it is not perfect and it does have problems, but it does work.

Drop1
06-04-2007, 08:31 PM
You could well be right. I can't ask her.

Rich R.
06-05-2007, 06:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> You could well be right. I can't ask her. <hr /></blockquote>I'm sorry.