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View Full Version : How would you handle this? (8-ball shark attack)



joepool
06-03-2007, 08:15 PM
I accidentally move a ball less than a quarter inch when shooting a ball playing cue ball fouls only. It didn't intefere with the outcome of the shot, etc. -- not a foul, but I notify my opponent, who I am not sure even saw it move. He jumps up, walks to the table, sees I have all balls clear to run the rack, and says "oh no you moved it a lot more than that" as he moves the nudged ball about a ball and a half to block my runout and tie up 2 balls.
i made the mistake of "letting it slide" thinking I could get out anyway-- in retrospect, there were roaming refs and I could have called one over for a ruling which seems the right thing to have done...i ended up losing the match case game. Just curious how others might have handled the situation.
thanks in advance for your feedback.

Cydpkt
06-03-2007, 08:26 PM
Kind of tough. I guess your opponent needed to win the match really bad to do that to you. I had the same thing happen to me about a year ago. I told several other players whos main comment was "I guess you shouldn't have moved that ball." That is how I have come to regard this ruling. If I hadn't moved the ball then my opponent wouldn't have got it in my way. As long as it wasn't your next ball to shoot you still could have played safe or played shape for other options. I was bummed when it happened to me but I also was the one who moved it first.
I have even bumped an opponents ball (game of 8 ball) and my opponent left it where it was because it moved it closer to a pocket for him. End result he didn't get the shape on that ball where he would have been perfect if he had moved it back. I wasn't proud of the win, but I gave him the choice to move it back and he chose to keep it where it was. Regardless I have been very diligent to keep from contacting anything since.

jjinfla
06-03-2007, 08:41 PM
Well it is better than giving him ball in hand.

If there was a ref he would have agreed with your opponent since he didn't see you move the ball.

What upsets me is when a person moves the ball and then quickly grabs it and puts it back. Under strict rules that is a foul but unless you are playing in a better tournament it is rarely called.

We all know it is common to leave the ball where it moves to if it is to our advantage so what is the problem if he spots it where he thinks it was. Surely you can't complain because you didn't even know the ball was there, otherwise you wouldn't have nudged it now would you?

Bottom line. Live with your mistake and learn.

Jake

Bob_Jewett
06-03-2007, 09:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> ... He jumps up, walks to the table, sees I have all ballls clear to run the rack, and says "oh no you moved it a lot more than that" as he moves the nudged ball about a ball and a half to block my runout and tie up 2 balls.
... <hr /></blockquote>
It's clear that your opponent doesn't respect you or the game. If the TD doesn't put things right after an explanation, play elsewhere.

jjinfla
06-04-2007, 06:15 AM
Bob, it's the only game in town.

LOL

Jake

joepool
06-04-2007, 09:14 AM
Thanks for the replies. I agree the best thing to do as a player is to avoid the inadvertent move and plan to take more care in my ball address, etc., secondly, if it happens again, politely call a ref over and explain, etc. fyi, the tournament was the recent BCA Masters in Las Vegas.

Again, thanks for the helpful feedback.

wolfdancer
06-04-2007, 09:43 AM
I happened to witness the incident....the guy clearly didn't see the ball nudged, brushed...and then decided to take advantage of that with his new ball placement.I give "joepool" credit for staying joecool
A couple of games later he moved a ball a couple of inches on his follow-through..but never said anything
The pool Gods exacted their punishment though...he missed out on the money, by one match.
In a Masters single match...I'd expect better sportsmanship???

Bob_Jewett
06-04-2007, 11:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> ... fyi, the tournament was the recent BCA Masters in Las Vegas.
<hr /></blockquote>
Although I'm sure the refs have seen such moves before, you might send them a note and ask what would have happened if a ref had been called over in that situation.

Almost every time I've let something slide, I've regretted it later. The most frequent problem is close object balls, and it's a problem because most people don't understand the rule or the mechanics.

SPetty
06-04-2007, 12:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The most frequent problem is close object balls, and it's a problem because most people <font color="blue">(including many trained referees /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif )</font color> don't understand the rule or the mechanics. <hr /></blockquote>

underdog
06-04-2007, 12:32 PM
If you have to cheat in order to win...you are playing the wrong game.

Deeman3
06-04-2007, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote underdog:</font><hr> If you have to cheat in order to win...you are playing the wrong game. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I think what SPetty was indicating was there seems to be very little knowledge at even the umpire ranks on what is and is not a good hit, foul or otherwise how to rule on a questionable situation. I like foul on all balls as it makes it simpler for all. After all, except for the NBA, we don't let kids double dribble and take extra steps in Basketball unless they make over $12,000,000 a year! O.K. Bad example... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color>

wolfdancer
06-04-2007, 03:39 PM
Joepool's opponent had more moves than a bar pool hustler in Luverne.....even one in Shirley

Deeman3
06-04-2007, 03:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Joepool's opponent had more moves than a bar pool hustler in Luverne.....even one in Shirley <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

You know I hate bar pool worse than a terrorist hates Bush. But as was falsely attributed to Willy Sutton, "That's where the money is!" I know his reference was to banks but with the attendance figures now in the high teens at Pro Tour Events, bank robbery would be a step up for a tour player right now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

littleCajun
06-05-2007, 08:51 AM
The rules state that both players must agree on where the balls where, If your opponent moves the balls to create a mess or tie up balls you always have the option of saying well I guess we cant agree on where the balls where we have to re-rack and play the game over.

I had this happen to me in Vegas. I only had 2 balls left clearly in the open 8 ball by the side pocket. The player playing on the table next to me was not paying attention and he walked right into me during my stroke. balls went every where. My opponet tried to place all of my balls back in clusters. I just said well we have start over.

KellyStick
06-06-2007, 11:23 AM
In APA the rules basically seem to say the opponent can place the ball anywhere he wants. Read literally I guess he could drop it in a pocket, if it was yours maybe throw it on the floor I dunno... Have to agree with most others. You started it so deal with the result.

Jager85
06-06-2007, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> The rules state that both players must agree on where the balls where, If your opponent moves the balls to create a mess or tie up balls you always have the option of saying well I guess we cant agree on where the balls where we have to re-rack and play the game over.

I had this happen to me in Vegas. I only had 2 balls left clearly in the open 8 ball by the side pocket. The player playing on the table next to me was not paying attention and he walked right into me during my stroke. balls went every where. My opponet tried to place all of my balls back in clusters. I just said well we have start over. <hr /></blockquote>

My wife had something similar to this happen to her in league a few weeks back. A guy at the table next to us hit a ball way to hard and his cue ball and 11 ball jumped onto our table. Needless to say the tables are fairly close together at this bar. Any way one of my wifes balls was pocketed and 4-5 others moved around, plus 2 extra balls on the table. Since they were only SL3's playing they didn't care much and got the bar tender to open the table and get her ball out and they moved them around and agreed on positions although they were nowhere close.

Curtis

Pool_fan
01-31-2008, 01:18 PM
Feel for you I had a similar situation during league. Brushed a piece of lint in front of the 8 ball other player said I moved the 8 (don't believe I did he didn't say a word until after I pocketed the ball) had to replay the game lucky for me he broke made nothing and I ran out.

supergreenman
01-31-2008, 02:08 PM
Tough luck, this is one area where the rules can be easily taken advantage of by the shooter or his opponent. I take pains to play every game as if it's all fouls that way I don't put myself in that position.

That being said, if an opponent moves a ball inadvertantly, I don't see any issue with leaving it where it lies if it's to my advantage. If I decide it should be moved back it should go exactly where it originally was. My reasoning for this is, while moving balls by accident doesn't result in a ball in hand foul, it's still and infraction and there exists a posibility a shooter can do it on purpose to his advantage so any advantage gained from the infraction should go to the non shooter.

Cydpkt
01-31-2008, 05:22 PM
But then you have the non shooter calling foul when a foul didn't happen. I still like having a 3rd party watch the shot, their ruling stands.

supergreenman
01-31-2008, 05:32 PM
What shot, we're talking about a shooter inadvertantly moving balls while taking his shot. unless you're going to have a referee for every single match played everywhere what you are suggesting is impossible.

av84fun
01-31-2008, 06:19 PM
Your opponent's action of replacing the OB himself was a foul and you should have been awarded ball in hand as a result.

In its section on Fouls...The World Standard Rules are silent on "cue ball fouls only" and only deal with all ball fouls.

However, in another section, the WSRs provide as follows:

"1.8 Restoring a Position
When necessary for balls to be restored or cleaned, the referee will restore disturbed balls to their original positions to the best of his ability. The players must accept the referee’s judgment as to placement."

Regarding restoration, the rules speak to replacement of balls if they need to be "restored OR cleaned"...not restored FOR THE PURPOSE OF CLEANING.

Therefore, the literal interpretation of that rule would address the need to restore a ball for ANY reason.

(NOTE: I may have missed some other section of the WSRs and apologize in advance if I have...but I did not immediately find any rules relating specifically to cue ball only fouls. If the rules are actually silent on that matter it is unfortunate since cue ball only fouls is a frequently adtoped rule in amateur and pro events alike.)

However, the BCA rules provide specifically for cue ball only fouls and they provide as follows:


1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball)
with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a
referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between
the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should
allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not
allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored
ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the
accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must
be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot.
It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls.
At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the
balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any
contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a
shot."

Your event did have a presiding referee or TD. The fact that he/she wasn't at your table at the time of the issue in question does not change the fact that the ref/td is a presiding official.

Therefore, without question, your opponent's act of replacing the ball himself was a CLEAR violation of the BCA rules.

Had the ref been consulted before the ball was moved, the issue remains how he/she would have resolved the dispute.

However, since the rules provide for EITHER leaving the moved ball where it is or replacing it to its "correct position", if the players cannot agree on what the correct position is the only option left...IMHO...would be for the ref to rule that the ball shall remain in its moved position.

In other words...if there is a choice of A or B and if B cannot possibly be determined BY THE REFEREE then A would be his/her only proper choice.

But without doubt, the opponent CANNOT personally replace the ball because doing so is a foul by definition.

HOWEVER...the final blame for the outcome of the incident was yours since you could have but did not call upon the ref.

The rules provide that if a subsequent shot takes place after a foul has been commited on a previous shot, the foul is extinguished. You voluntarily allowed the opponent to shoot without consulting the ref and at the moment of his shot, his foul was extinguished and so BY RULE, that rack was played legally.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-31-2008, 09:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> ... He jumps up, walks to the table, sees I have all ballls clear to run the rack, and says "oh no you moved it a lot more than that" as he moves the nudged ball about a ball and a half to block my runout and tie up 2 balls.
... <hr /></blockquote>
It's clear that your opponent doesn't respect you or the game. If the TD doesn't put things right after an explanation, play elsewhere. <hr /></blockquote>

The TD can't "put things right" since the OP elected not to consult one of the refs and allowed the opponent to continue at which time any rule violation on the part of the opponent was nullified.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-31-2008, 09:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> ... fyi, the tournament was the recent BCA Masters in Las Vegas.
<hr /></blockquote>
Although I'm sure the refs have seen such moves before, you might send them a note and ask what would have happened if a ref had been called over in that situation.

Almost every time I've let something slide, I've regretted it later. The most frequent problem is close object balls, and it's a problem because most people don't understand the rule or the mechanics. <hr /></blockquote>

I grant you that many people may not understand the World Standard Rule governing close object balls but the problem is at least in part, a function of the wording of the rule which is somewhat convoluted and essentially contradictory in certain aspects.

Ask 4 experts what the following rule means and you will likely get 5 answers.

6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.
However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.)
The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.

Regards,
Jim

Scott Lee
02-01-2008, 01:29 AM
Tom...I'm in agreement with Bob. You should have called a ref over, to put this guy in his place. Next time, huh? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

catscradle
02-01-2008, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> ... fyi, the tournament was the recent BCA Masters in Las Vegas.
<hr /></blockquote>
Although I'm sure the refs have seen such moves before, you might send them a note and ask what would have happened if a ref had been called over in that situation.

Almost every time I've let something slide, I've regretted it later. The most frequent problem is close object balls, and it's a problem because most people don't understand the rule or the mechanics. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob, what is the exact rule? I've heard from some that if a referee isn't observing, it is entirely at the discretion of the non-shooter. By that I mean he can replace the disturbed ball anywhere he wants regardless of where it was. That to me seems like an egregious rule if it is actually the rule.

av84fun
02-01-2008, 01:18 PM
If I amy butt in...there is no "exact rule" because there is no single set of rules that must be abided by...like there is in golf for example (USGA).

There are the World Standard Rules and the BCA rules (which are similar but not entirely the same) and I also understand but don't know for a fact that BCA LEAGUE rules are different from their "standard" rules.

So in any event...or gambling match...it is up to the opponents to determine which set of rules and local variations, if any, will control play.

If there is a ref or TD, it is also up to the players to get rulings BEFORE PLAY CONTINUES whenever there is a dispute.

Having said all that, in an earlier post, I cited the WSRs and the BCA rules. I couldn't find (but may have overlooked) any WSRs concerning "cue ball fouls only" but the BCA rules are CLEAR on that point...that the OP's opponent commited a foul by replacing the OB himself.

BUT the OP commited the "controling error" by not consulting the ref. When he allowed play to continue any and all prior fouls were extinguished.

Regards,
Jim

Bob_Jewett
02-01-2008, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> ... Bob, what is the exact rule? I've heard from some that if a referee isn't observing, it is entirely at the discretion of the non-shooter. By that I mean he can replace the disturbed ball anywhere he wants regardless of where it was. That to me seems like an egregious rule if it is actually the rule. <hr /></blockquote>
The choice is between leaving the balls where they were moved to and putting them back where they started. If the players cannot agree on that then call the TD over to resolve the issue. Sometimes the TD will have the game replayed. If I were the TD, and the non-shooter clearly tried to screw his opponent by putting the balls back in really bad positions that were unrelated to the original positions, then I would explain the two choices to him, and warn him for the future.

My own feeling is that in the long run, we should call all fouls. Sadly, there's not enough sportsmanship around to support that policy.

Here is the current wording of the WPA regulation -- it is not a rule:

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.

av84fun
02-02-2008, 02:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote catscradle:</font><hr> ... Bob, what is the exact rule? I've heard from some that if a referee isn't observing, it is entirely at the discretion of the non-shooter. By that I mean he can replace the disturbed ball anywhere he wants regardless of where it was. That to me seems like an egregious rule if it is actually the rule. <hr /></blockquote>
The choice is between leaving the balls where they were moved to and putting them back where they started. If the players cannot agree on that then call the TD over to resolve the issue. Sometimes the TD will have the game replayed. If I were the TD, and the non-shooter clearly tried to screw his opponent by putting the balls back in really bad positions that were unrelated to the original positions, then I would explain the two choices to him, and warn him for the future.

My own feeling is that in the long run, we should call all fouls. Sadly, there's not enough sportsmanship around to support that policy.

Here is the current wording of the WPA regulation -- it is not a rule:

20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent. <hr /></blockquote>

First, "rules" and "regulations" are essentially synonymous.

"Regulate
1. The act of regulating or the state of being regulated.
2. A principle, rule, or law designed to control or govern conduct.

Commonly, standards to be enforced are referred to as Rules and Regulations...with the important aspect being that they both are to be enforced.

But in any event, the match WAS presided over by a referee and therefore, under either the WPA or BCA rules, the opponent was not allowed to replace the ball and committed a foul in so doing.

He was rescued from that foul by the OP who permitted the rack to continue without calling for the ref.

Of course, the ref didn't see either foul. But had the OP called in the ref, the ref could merely asked the opponent if he replaced the ball. Since he did it, he must have assumed it was proper to do so and would not likely have lied in which case the knowledgable ref would have called a foul on the opponent.

At the end of the day, the fault was that of the OP for not knowing the rules/regulations requiring the ref to replace the ball and therefore, this thread is responsive to his original question.

As for the sportsmanship issue, that term can only be applied within the context of applicable rules and regulations. No opponent is required by sportsmanship or nobility to give aid to his opponent out of the goodness of his heart.

If, for sake of argument, "rules" and "regulations" are not synonymous, then the lack of a WPA "rule" on cue ball only fouls cannot give rise to an accusation of unsportsmanlike conduct. Rather, since such a restriction on fouls is commonly adopted in tournament play, then the WPA should write a rule on that point...just as the BCA has.

Finally, if the OPs opponent actually did replace the ball unfairly, assuming the opponent did not appear overly dangerous and/or assuming I had sufficiently beefy friends in the room, I would have waited for an opportune time, out of sight of a ref and simply moved a ball during my opponent's inning and told him "We're even bubba."

(-:

joepool
02-03-2008, 07:56 PM
hey scott-- yep that is my plan if there is a next time. i think the best advice i got was to avoid touching other balls...then i don't put myself in that spot....anyway i posted it shortly after last years tourney and someone dug it up again recently -- i continue to learn and gain insight from the great responses on this board.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
02-04-2008, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote joepool:</font><hr> i posted it shortly after last years tourney and someone dug it up again recently -- i continue to learn and gain insight from the great responses on this board./ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Tom...Duh! I noticed that AFTER I posted my response. I have to remember to look at original post dates more often, as I don't like resurrecting old threads. There are a certain number of folks that are so enamored with seeing their name in print, that they do it all the time! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Cya in Vegas, if not sooner! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott