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Qtec
06-20-2007, 06:07 AM
A few comments.
Woman buys med for 5ct in Cuba and pays $120 in the USA?
Volenteers at ground zero are denied treatment?
Health Comps make money by DENYING treatment?


How many people died in this film because the Ins Comps denied them proper medical care?

How can you justify spending a trillion dollars being spent in wild escapades in the ME and then say universal health care would be too expensive?

Dumping sick people on the street just because they can't pay is barbaric. Especially when we are talking about the richest country on the planet.

Any thoughts?

Q

eg8r
06-20-2007, 06:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A few comments.
Woman buys med for 5ct in Cuba and pays $120 in the USA? Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
<hr /></blockquote> Why not finish the comment and state that said woman lives under oppresive Castro and there are much worse conditions all around which negate the monetary advantage of some meds.

[ QUOTE ]
How can you justify spending a trillion dollars being spent in wild escapades in the ME and then say universal health care would be too expensive?
<hr /></blockquote> I have not bothered with even thinking about how expensive it would be simply because the only way it could happen is if we are taxed more. There is no proof or history to show that a social-led group would reduce spending on other social programs to bring on another. They just want to keep spending. Since we are already increasing the debt at record paces, the only option is to increase taxes and I am against that.

Also, no country with Government funded healthcare system has ever been succcessful. History tends to repeat itself so there is no need for the US to prove it would fail again.

eg8r

Chopstick
06-20-2007, 08:21 AM
Michael Moore challenged Fred Thompson to a public debate over this movie. I think Fred's response just about covers it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fred's response (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8029495293276651129)

eg8r
06-20-2007, 08:25 AM
Here is a brief review of the movie from someone who does not appear to have the same close-minded bias as Q.

[ QUOTE ]
Michael Moore said that he didn't care if his new movie Sicko was downloaded off of the internet so, with the aid of a google search, I found myself a copy and...downloaded.

The copy I ended up with is a full, 2 hour, 4 minute, high quality -- but low resolution -- 16:9 .avi file. I've been around the media industry long enough to know when I'm looking at a studio rip from the original master. This is not a bootleg video. I can't prove it but my professional guess is that this 696MB file -- which coincidentally fits almost perfectly on a standard CD -- was leaked by the studio as part of a viral marketing campaign.

My overall impression of the movie is that it is a brilliant and very well crafted piece of political propoganda. As usual, Mr. Moore's "facts" are almost irrefutable -- if you just ignore the vast chasms of reality that he leaps with such sweeping generalizations as (not an exact quote): "People in countries with national health systems live much longer than Americans."

Actually, people in many, but not all, countires with national health systems live as much as 3% longer than Americans -- which doesn't seem like "much," but some socialed medicine countries, like Denmark, actually have slightly shorter life expectancies than the U.S.

Mr. Moore also skips over inconvenient truths like the fiscal issues that many socialized systems are facing as their populations age. Germany, the U.K. and Canada have all expressed official, public concern over the security of their systems.

Later today, I'll post a more detailed synopsis of the movie. Briefly, the movie starts out with a few examples of Americans who are not well served by the current private health system in the U.S. He then goes to explore the evolution of the system from Richard Nixon's introduction of health maintenance organizations (in emulation of Kaiser's Permanente plan) to Hillary Clinton's disasterous 1993 effort to institute socialized medicine in this country. Moore's conclusion is that Republicans -- and in particular greedy "white men" are responsible for thwarting a national desire for universal health care in this country.

Moore (superficially) examines the national health systems in the U.K., France and Canada drawing the inevitable conclusion that those systems deliver better health to the citizens of those countries. An illustration of Moore's concsiously deceptive methodology is his presentation of an "average" French family. This family is, of course, happy and completely satisfied with the French system (not just health care, by the way) of "solidarity." We are given to understand that virtually all of France shares the comfortable life style of this family. We learn, however, that their combined household income is about US$100,000 per year, which is actually about two-and-a-half times the average household income in France.

Finally, Moore investigates the plight of several 9/11 volunteer responders who have been (criminally in my view) denied medical care for injuries suffered in their service to the recovery of that tragic day because they were not on any official government payroll as they worked. You can't help but share Moore's view that these people have not been treated fairly -- or humanely. Moore takes the group to Cuba in an attempt to obtain the same medical care available to the detainees at the Guantanamo detention camps. Moore, perhaps unwittingly, makes the case that the detainees are being very well cared for. But, of course, his stunt is not well received by authorities at the camp.

Moore than takes the 9/11 volunteers to Havana where they receive much needed medical care -- for free, of course. Moore takes the opportunity to point out that Cuba enjoys just about the same longevity as the U.S. and a much lower infant mortality rate. He neglects, however, to mention that almost everything else in Cuba is at a much lower standard.

You may have heard that Moore excoriates Hillary Clinton for her failure to achieve universal health care during the Clinton administration. This is not true. He is mildly critical of Hillary but save the bulk of his wrath for -- can you believe it? -- Republicans.

The movie is brilliantly made and raises some legitimate questions about the problems and failures of the U.S. system of health care. Anyone who sees this, without knowing all of the facts will likely be persuaded that socialism is the only answer to those problems and failures. Give the man credit where credit is due.

As noted above: I'll provide a more in depth synopsis and some specific criticisms of Moore's "facts" later today.
<hr /></blockquote> Maybe later he will post more. Anyways, like everyone always says about Michael Moore, he generalizes everything and only shows what he wants to in order to prove a mis-guided point.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
06-20-2007, 09:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A few comments.
Woman buys med for 5ct in Cuba and pays $120 in the USA?
Volenteers at ground zero are denied treatment? <font color="red">A disgrace! </font color>
Health Comps make money by DENYING treatment? <font color="red"> Also a disgrace. </font color>


How many people died in this film because the Ins Comps denied them proper medical care?

How can you justify spending a trillion dollars being spent in wild escapades in the ME and then say universal health care would be too expensive? <font color="red">Especially when history has proven that occupations, especially when faced with guerilla warriors, dispresed among the citenzenry, NEVER succeed. Funny how the right moves their line around on lies, and the lessons of history. If they can't recall the disasters of the Reagan Administration, the lies, the indictments, the deficits, the messes he made in the Middle East, why would we expect them to grasp the idiocy of this entire fiasco they've now created in the Middle East? They can get on here and yap about taxes, and spending, while they've got the biggest spender in the hsitory of this country in the White House. Republicans get in, debt soars, they can't see the connections. No crayons! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif </font color>

Dumping sick people on the street just because they can't pay is barbaric. Especially when we are talking about the richest country on the planet. <font color="red">Awe, but you know the philosophy of the right, they're all dumb, lazy,irresponsible, and deserve what they get. They're the kinder, gentler party! Tax cuts that benefit the wealthy, and an increase in the poverty levels, huge deficits, recessions, and hig gas prices, good description of Republicans running the country! Oh and BTW, I never hoped for hand outs to send my daughter through college, LOL. She attended the best schools in this country. The right, doesn't even care about our VETS, so why would they give a damn about the ill, and downtrodden? </font color>

Any thoughts?
<font color="red">Yep, don't vote Republican, whatever you do! </font color>

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
06-20-2007, 09:15 PM
You call that a response? It doesn't adress any of the issues in the film!
Q

Qtec
06-20-2007, 09:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why not finish the comment and state that said woman lives <hr /></blockquote>
'Lives' being the operative word! At least she is alive, when many featured in the film are not- and all of them HAD insurance but were denied treatment!

Q

DickLeonard
06-21-2007, 07:24 AM
Eg8R I have to agree with you on History repeating itself. It seems we have Iraq to prove your point. I just prefer Social Programs to Bombs.####

DickLeonard
06-21-2007, 07:34 AM
Gayle for the life of me I can't understand why Reagan is so Revered. I do believe the Repubs continuous running up the deficit is a plot to destroy the SS Program. The only thing is their using the Back Door.####

eg8r
06-21-2007, 09:17 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I just prefer Social Programs to Bombs.#### <hr /></blockquote> Which is exactly why Obama felt comfortable bombing the WTC in 93 and then sending in his cronies to fly planes into the WTC almost a decade later. Your way is appeasment and it just tickles the terrorists as they plan the next time they will attack you.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
06-21-2007, 09:57 AM
Everything they do is sneaky, and underhanded. Reagan was just another fake, and the right can't tell the difference. Denial is their elixer.

It's a given, there is corruption on both sides, but hey, you and I are both over sixty, and I know you'll agree, the Republilcan party of the last six years, is the worst bunch, ever. There are some good repubs, which I have written about, right here, Gordon Smith, for one, and Chuck Hagle, who had the courage to speak out against what is inhumane treatment of our troops, and the on-going lies of this administration, and their unprecedented ignorance.

The followers can't see that their being taken advantage of, and are drawn to vote for authoritarian personalities, this is what happens, and it is the prelude to fascism. Same mentality that enabled Hitler. Twist, deny, and gobble up the propaganda. Avoid commenting, when an American General, steps up to tell of more lies, and horrible abuses of innocent Iraqis, being tortured by this administration, after Bush, Rice, and Rumsfeld, have lied about their approval of torture, for years, and during Armed Services Investigations. Innocent people who were arrested, without reasonable cause, being held, against the law, and being tortured, also against the law, indefinately, and without a voice. If that isn't inhumane, and illegal, I don't know what is. The enablers, avoid addressing it, at all, but when they do, they defend inhumane, illegal actions, torture, it is the reason why America now has lost its high moral position in the world, and the damage done will last a long long time.

They just can't keep up with facts very well. Some even think Obama, bombed the WTC! LMAO!

Love,
Gayle

DickLeonard
06-21-2007, 10:49 AM
Gayle me too.####

love Dick

Gayle in MD
06-21-2007, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Which is exactly why Obama felt comfortable bombing the WTC in 93 <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

BWA HA HA HA...Obama, huh? Brilliant! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
And a post Police, yet! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Drop1
06-21-2007, 01:50 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gifHow can you not love The Republican Leader of the Forum,ha ha that is so funny.I think he got nine on the poll.

eg8r
06-21-2007, 03:09 PM
Ooops. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif My little puppy caught me.

eg8r

Drop1
06-21-2007, 08:51 PM
We can forgive a little mistake. I wonder what you would do had I made it Captain?

Drop1
06-21-2007, 09:08 PM
You never saw "Death Valley Days?" At least Bonzo is for stem cell research.

DickLeonard
06-22-2007, 07:06 AM
Drop1 I was in the poolhall in those days and there was no beer,jukeboxes or TVs. Seems the poolhalls of today are loaded with distractions. In good taste I have left out two other distractions.####

Qtec
06-23-2007, 08:06 AM
That guy sure sounds neutral to me???????????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, like everyone always says about Michael Moore, he generalizes everything and only shows what he wants to in order to prove a mis-guided point. <hr /></blockquote>

Which 'mis-guided point'would that be then?

The first line of the modern day Hypocratic Oath states,


[ QUOTE ]
# Make the care of your patient your first concern <hr /></blockquote>

So when a guy comes into hospital with a brain tumour, they should treat him. Not ask the guy if he can afford the operation.

How can YOU be pro-life but accept that people die everyday in America because they don't get the medical care they need?

Watch the film. Its shocking.

Q

Drop1
06-23-2007, 09:19 AM
If I only had such noble instincts,but alas,I don't. Not to mean,you don't appreciate those two distractions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

eg8r
06-23-2007, 09:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Which 'mis-guided point'would that be then? <hr /></blockquote> The US is bad and socialized healthcare is good. The point is always different in each one but the underlying fact is he likes to place blame on others instead of pushing self-responsibility.

[ QUOTE ]
How can YOU be pro-life but accept that people die everyday in America because they don't get the medical care they need?
<hr /></blockquote> Pro-life means I am against abortion. These people you are speaking of got to live life this long because people like me believed they should have been allowed the chance at birth.

[ QUOTE ]
Watch the film. Its shocking.
<hr /></blockquote> It is not shocking at all. Anyone with an agenda can certainly seek out worst cases to prove the point.

eg8r

Qtec
06-23-2007, 09:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Pro-life means I am against abortion. These people you are speaking of got to live life this long because people like me believed they should have been allowed the chance at birth. <hr /></blockquote>
You are not really 'Pro-Life'. You are just against abortion! Amazing.

Life is life, is it not?
What would God say?
Would he say "your'e right eg8r, if only she had worked that extra 3rd job she might have been able to afford better insurance. Its her own fault. Although the new operation that could have saved her life had a %100 success rate, it was still considered experimental and the Ins,Co,s, who don't cover experimental operations so they can't be blamed ."
We are not talking about taxes here its about the right to live! isn't that a moral issue?

Imagine a woman is forced [ by you and your ilk ]to have a baby instead of having an abortion. Then a week after the birth the mother develops a critical condition and could be saved but her Med Ins company refuses to pay for the op. Thats ok by you? You would be willing to let her die because she didn't have the coverage- ie her own fault! Or it it yours?
Maybe if she had had an abortion she wouldn't be in this situation.

Don't you see the hypocracy from this pro-Life standpoint?

Even GW says every life is precious [ even a friggin embryo!] but apparently it isn't. It all depends on whos life it is. ie collateral damage!
GW's veto on the stem cell research just confirmed to me his imbicility. He wants to save an embryo but is willing to sacrifice 1000s of people and deny the rest a possible cure?[ good point for another thread}


How anyone can think that universal healthcare could be bad for them, I don't know. "It would cost too much " they say and then GW spends a trillion dollars attacking the wrong country!

I,m pretty sure the majority would rather see the money spent on really keeping them alive, rather than going into the pockets of war profiteers.

Q...........the poor..........collateral damage?
BTW, there is video footage of people being dumped on skid row still in their hospital gowns and wrist tags!
If they can't pay kick the bums out right?

Drop1
06-24-2007, 06:18 PM
Casting your pearls before swine dear boy. There are thirty industrialized Countries with Universal Health plans,and in Mexico,as a resident alien,I can buy health insurance for less than $1000 per year. Is the care good,are the Doctors up to date? The answer is yes and no. Mexico has state of the art medical equipment,but the Doctors have to really be screened,because twenty five percent of them never finished medical school,and just bought a diploma. I want to see Sicko,as I have Cuban friends that are Doctors,and have been to Cuba,for the rum cake,and jazz. Eighty thousand Americans go each year,and there is a hospital for foreigners only.

eg8r
06-24-2007, 08:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are not really 'Pro-Life'. You are just against abortion! Amazing. <hr /></blockquote> I am not interested in your own personal definition of pro-life. You are misusing the word for you own purposes and you really are not worth the time.

I am not interested in what you think God would say because you have already proved you don't have a clue so why should I play a guessing game with you?

[ QUOTE ]
How anyone can think that universal healthcare could be bad for them, I don't know. <hr /></blockquote> I don't think you ever will understand it, your head is too thick and you think you already know everything. Only a fool would want universal healthcare. It has never been successful anywhere in the history of time, why would it be different here and now? Our government cannot handle education and retirement well so why would they "get it right" with healthcare. It is just stupidity to want universal healthcare. Absolutely stupidity.

eg8r

Drop1
06-24-2007, 08:56 PM
Qtec,How would you answer eg8r,is there a universal health care system that you can point to,and say this one works. The American mind set,is I got mine,you get yours. In short we are a people not given to systems that use our money. However we do need a system,that any indigent person has access to.

Qtec
06-25-2007, 03:43 AM
web page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care#Health_care_economics)

Check out the table. What it shows is that the present US system is much more costly for the taxpayer than in Sweden where they have universal coverage/ or France. ie they pay more and get less!

eg8r does what eg8r always does. He dodges the question and changes the subject.
MM's film is about whats wrong with the system and how the insurance companies and the Drug industry with the help of the politicians are all getting rich by denying people proper medical aid.
Its a question of priorities.

Q.................

eg8r
06-25-2007, 09:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
He dodges the question and changes the subject.
MM's film is about whats wrong with the system and how the insurance companies and the Drug industry with the help of the politicians are all getting rich by denying people proper medical aid.
Its a question of priorities. <hr /></blockquote> Which question was dodged? And in answering drop you dodged his question. Why should you ever be taken seriously when it was already mentioned on this board that you told another user that you normally are only trying to egg people on.

eg8r

Drop1
06-25-2007, 02:19 PM
I checked out the table,and when it comes to health care,as a Country,we have major problems.But that does not mean we have to leave the forty million Americans with no health insurance,left on the street to die. I would like to see extended family participation for the elderly with out resources. I think we can come up with a program of limited health care,that can be adjusted to the need of the patient,as conditions change,and we age. Death is the end of life,and natural to all living things,but we will spend billions of dollars to keep a person in a dead state,on machines. We should look,at when a person is really dead,and drop the idea,that breathing is alive. When I no longer know I exist or who my family are,and have no memory,and have to be spoon fed,unable to control my body
functions, I want out.

eg8r
06-25-2007, 04:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I checked out the table,and when it comes to health care,as a Country,we have major problems.But that does not mean we have to leave the forty million Americans with no health insurance,left on the street to die. <hr /></blockquote> This is a myth. No one is left to die. These people can walk into any hospital and be seen. Even in Orlando at the private hospitals there are patients who are seen that have no insurance and no way of ever paying the bill. Is it harder on them, yes but they will be seen and they will get the medication they need.

Do some people slip through the cracks, sure, just like all the Canadians that come down here to the US to get treated because they cannot wait for months for the free stuff in their country.

eg8r

Drop1
06-25-2007, 07:56 PM
Not in L.A. California,but as I said I believe an effort to involve the extended family. California once had a law to take money from grown children,to help off set medical costs of the parents. When my Grandfather had a major stroke,and went into fourteen years of care,my uncle,his son, got a post office box in Arizona,and declared that,as his personal residence,and never paid a cent. When my Grandmother died, the County of L.A. sold the home to pay medical costs. I don't think we will have a solution in my time,maybe in yours.

Qtec
06-26-2007, 01:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I checked out the table,and when it comes to health care,as a Country,we have major problems.But that does not mean we have to leave the forty million Americans with no health insurance,left on the street to die. <hr /></blockquote> This is a myth. No one is left to die.
eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Really?
web page (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/4913350.html)

"It was at least her third visit to Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital in as many days. "You have already been seen, and there is nothing we can do," a nurse told her.

Minutes later, the 43-year-old mother of three collapsed on the floor screaming in pain and began vomiting blood. Employees ignored her,[ she lay there for 45 mins!] and she was soon dead.

Now state officials are threatening to close the hospital unless it can be improved, and Rodriguez has become a symbol of everything wrong with the facility derisively known as "Killer King."

After she collapsed, surveillance cameras show that Rodriguez was left for dead on the floor.

Nurses walked past her. A janitor cleaned up around her. No one did anything until police were called to cart her away.[ she was being arrested on a parol violation!] They didn't get far before she went into cardiac arrest and died."
"After Rodriguez's death, federal reports showed those efforts were failing and patients were in "immediate jeopardy." Of the 60 cases reviewed between February and June, more than a quarter received substandard care, according to the U.S. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

In February, a brain tumor patient languished in the emergency room for four days before his family drove him to another hospital for emergency surgery. A pregnant woman who complained of bleeding was given a pregnancy test and left, only to return three days later and have a miscarriage after waiting more than four hours to see a doctor."

Also, web page (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/09/national/main2452612.shtml)
"A hospital van dropped off a paraplegic man on Skid Row, allegedly leaving him crawling in the street with nothing more than a soiled gown and a broken colostomy bag, police said."


Q......BTW, the issue is US healthcare, not the rest of the world's.

eg8r
06-26-2007, 08:12 AM
Wow, your uncle did not want to help? Or did he just not want the Government deciding how he would help?

eg8r

eg8r
06-26-2007, 08:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Really? <hr /></blockquote> Yes.

eg8r

Drop1
06-26-2007, 08:43 PM
I really don't know,why he did what he did.

Gayle in MD
06-27-2007, 03:46 AM
Only a fool would have voted for George Bush, twice.

Your response to Q proves your inability to absorb pure, and simple logic.

You'er not pro life, you're anti choice. It's a misogynist, Christian male thing. Some people don't believe in God. Why should they be forced to obey your ideology. You want to prevent abortion, but you're paranoid that some of your tax money might help out some hungry children in this country, or go toward health care programs, that would allow all people some health coverage.
Typical right wing ideology, without practicality.

If you can't see the hypocracy in George Bush, trying to save some cells that COULD become humans, but at the same time, launching bombs, torturing people, removing with his veto the opportunity for progress in medical science that would turn a life of hell, into a life worth living, you're even more blind and partisan than I ever thought.

Do us all a favor, and don't call anyone else, a hypocrit, around here. You get the trophy.

Q, is absolutely right, you're just not smart enough to grasp what he writes, but then, you did vote twice for Bush.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

eg8r
06-27-2007, 09:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Only a fool would have voted for George Bush, twice. <hr /></blockquote> I was worried about my country's safety and I could never have trusted Kerry and Edward to do as well a job.

[ QUOTE ]
You'er not pro life <hr /></blockquote> Uh oh, another goon telling me what I am.

[ QUOTE ]
Christian male thing. Some people don't believe in God. Why should they be forced to obey your ideology. <hr /></blockquote> You are going to talk to me about not forcing someone to obey an ideology they don't believe in, when you are the murder-friendly person who does not even want to give the person the first chance? According to you, I cannot share my religion, however you can decide if a human being is allowed to live. Get over your hypocritical self.

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't see the hypocracy in George Bush <hr /></blockquote> I am in such awe at the daily increasing level of your hypocrisy that I don't have any spare time to look at anyone else.

[ QUOTE ]
Do us all a favor, and don't call anyone else, a hypocrit, around here. <hr /></blockquote> As you continue to act like one I will call you out on it. You are now trying to restrict my right to free speech, that is quite hypocritical of you since you have desperately tried to put up a facade as someone who actually cares about our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

[ QUOTE ]
Q, is absolutely right, you're just not smart enough to grasp what he writes <hr /></blockquote> Yep, you lefties are always telling us how much smarter you are. What do you have to show for it...Losses to W twice and then when you do get control of Congress you drive it into the gutter. Yeah you people are real smart.

eg8r

Bobbyrx
06-27-2007, 12:34 PM
I think Hollywood should be regulated by the government also. Can you believe what those guys making movies are raking in? That should not be allowed. They keep coming up with those new special effects and expect me to pay for it at the box office. How dare them. And I can buy popcorn for 25 cents at the grocery store and it cost me $4.50 at the movies. And the price of drinks and candy. What gives?? I want socialized filmdom. That way someone can't use capitalism to make millions of dollars making a movie promoting socialism.

Gayle in MD
06-27-2007, 12:34 PM
ZZZZZZZZ :-o

eg8r
06-27-2007, 05:03 PM
Don't worry gayle, the pills will eventually wear off and you can wake up to reality.

LOL, what were you hypocritically saying about pointless posts? Oh well, we all suffer another pointless post by Gayle.

eg8r

LWW
02-19-2012, 09:18 AM
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DickLeonard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gayle for the life of me I can't understand why Reagan is so Revered. I do believe the Repubs continuous running up the deficit is a plot to destroy the SS Program.</div></div>

How much has the deficit fell since this post?

Tell us about what dear leader has done to save SS?