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View Full Version : Men vs Women in Pool - What's the deal?



BigRigTom
06-21-2007, 11:01 AM
We had an interesting discussion at our APA Regional Championships a couple of weeks ago regarding women vs. men in upper level pool matches.
My contention is that pool SHOULD be a game in which women and men could compete on an even field....someday.

My friend took the position that women CAN NOT compete on a level field and referred to the IPT matches as evidence of how the men overshadowed the women, but he had no real explanation for that happening.
It seems to me that pool is the PERFECT sport for co-ed competition, physical size and strength has little or nothing to do with the skills necessary to excel in pool. Why shouldn't women be equally qualified to compete, same rules, same games, same venue....gender completely ignored?

My questions are "Why can't women compete on a level field with men?" "What will it take for pool to be a real co-ed sport?"

KellyStick
06-21-2007, 11:20 AM
I have often wondered this very thing. What is the IPT? Is this an advanced level pool tourney with Men and Women. If so I would be interested in the reults. On the other hand I have watched Allison Fischer play and have wondered that she could beat any guy I have seen play. Has there ever been such a kind of Match? The main difference I may have ssen between men and women is Agression. I think some guys tend to play more agressively. But that can be good or bad. I'm curious to see what more comes from this post of people are not too PC impaired to reply. Some replies from women would be super. You know like a true open and honest discussion.

My reason for asking about past competitions pitting men and women against each other head to head without handicaps is to try to see if your premise is true. That premise being that Men on average are better at pool then women on average. Perhaps it is just perception and not true.

canadan
06-21-2007, 11:28 AM
could it be that there is just more great men then great women like a 10:1 or more. I can name alot of pro guys but only a handful of gals. to me it seems that its the same few ladys that alway win. Also I have not seen a ladys tourny in a wile now so that could be my bias.

BigRigTom
06-21-2007, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote canadan:</font><hr> could it be that there is just more great men then great women like a 10:1 or more. I can name alot of pro guys but only a handful of gals. to me it seems that its the same few ladys that alway win. Also I have not seen a ladys tourny in a wile now so that could be my bias. <hr /></blockquote>

If you read any of the pool magazines you'll see there are loads of women pros! Especially from Great Britton, Europe, The Netherlands, Asia and even Austrailia &amp; New Zealand,.... hey...we even have a few from America and Canada.

The question remains ...why can't Alison Fisher or Karen Corr beat Efrem Reyes or Johnny Archer?

Deeman3
06-21-2007, 12:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>
The question remains ...why can't Alison Fisher or Karen Corr beat Efrem Reyes or Johnny Archer?

<font color="blue"> The answer is, "They can on occasion and do." Karen often competes and wins against men. Doing it consistently is bit much to ask for the average woman pro but they are gaining ground every year. Only the top couple of players could compete with any regularity now. Strength does have something to do with pool on many shots.

Making all women compete against all men would destroy the women's tour and no one wants that, I don't think.</font color>



<hr /></blockquote>

scaramouche
06-21-2007, 01:12 PM
Hang around any pool forum or pool hall and you will find a lot of male chauvinists.

The reason women and men do not compete is that the male psyche couldn't handle the bruising of a loss. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
06-21-2007, 03:06 PM
Isn't it true that most pro events would allow women to enter if they wished? If so, then it is the women who choose not to compete. Why get their butts handed to them by Efren and Strickland, when they can win against other women? Conversely, I know of no "womens" pro events that allow the male pros to enter. It would be a slaughter. Women's pro pool would essentially vanish without the shelter of "their own" tours and organization. I, for one, do not wish that to happen.

While it's true that pool isn't a highly physical "strength" sport (if it were, the Deemans and Canes would probably whip the tar out of 145-lb Siegels and Archers), there are other aspects. Whether by evolution or intelligent design, the male's "attributes" are different. Some of these are physical, some are mental, some are a blend of both. For whatever reason, at the highest levels, these seem to make a difference in playing the game of pool.

Does having masculine traits tend to bolster success at pool? Are lesbians over-represented at the upper level of women's pool, compared to their percentage in the general population? For that matter, are gay men under-represented at the upper levels of men's pool, compared to their percentage in the general population?

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> We had an interesting discussion at our APA Regional Championships a couple of weeks ago regarding women vs. men in upper level pool matches.
My contention is that pool SHOULD be a game in which women and men could compete on an even field....someday.

My friend took the position that women CAN NOT compete on a level field and referred to the IPT matches as evidence of how the men overshadowed the women, but he had no real explanation for that happening.
It seems to me that pool is the PERFECT sport for co-ed competition, physical size and strength has little or nothing to do with the skills necessary to excel in pool. Why shouldn't women be equally qualified to compete, same rules, same games, same venue....gender completely ignored?

My questions are "Why can't women compete on a level field with men?" "What will it take for pool to be a real co-ed sport?" <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
06-21-2007, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Does having masculine traits tend to bolster success at pool? Are lesbians over-represented at the upper level of women's pool, compared to their percentage in the general population? For that matter, are gay men under-represented at the upper levels of men's pool, compared to their percentage in the general population?

SpiderMan

<font color="blue"> Now these are some really good queations for a change! Does a little extra dose of testosterone make pool playing easier? Do pitchers play better than catchers? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif I would hazard a guess that there are an unusually high number, by percentage, of exceptional female pros who are same sex lovers; as I would guess that the same percentage reversal exists at the top of the men's game (although pro football players are prone to be an exception by some accounts).

Why would this possibly be? Anyone want to make a stab at this or are we getting out of the comfort zone of this side of the discussion board? Is it possible that same sex preference women are just more aggressive or spatial thinkers? Do homosexual males just not play as well or do they just hide it better, their preference, no their game. </font color>

cushioncrawler
06-21-2007, 04:28 PM
Tom -- I remember an old old joke that might explain it, it sez that -- "A part of every woman's brain iz allwayz thinking about shoes". madMac.

Duckie
06-21-2007, 07:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote scaramouche:</font><hr> Hang around any pool forum or pool hall and you will find a lot of male chauvinists.

The reason women and men do not compete is that the male psyche couldn't handle the bruising of a loss. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Funny you should mentioned this........one of my 14.1 matches was with a female.....she got a 18 point lead on me, but in the end, I won by 8 points.

Of course, she said I had to win cause I couldn't stand being beat by a girl. Well, she kinda got miffed when I replied it didn't matter the sex of who I played.....I always played to win.

I've been beated by females and the reason I lost had nothing to do with them, but how I played my game.

Duckie
06-21-2007, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote scaramouche:</font><hr> Hang around any pool forum or pool hall and you will find a lot of male chauvinists.

The reason women and men do not compete is that the male psyche couldn't handle the bruising of a loss. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Funny you should mentioned this........one of my 14.1 matches was with a female.....she got a 18 point lead on me, but in the end, I won by 8 points.

Of course, she said I had to win cause I couldn't stand being beat by a girl. Well, she kinda got miffed when I replied it didn't matter the sex of who I played.....I always played to win.

I've been beated by females and the reason I lost had nothing to do with them, but how I played my game.

Rich R.
06-21-2007, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>
The question remains ...why can't Alison Fisher or Karen Corr beat Efrem Reyes or Johnny Archer? <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> The answer is, "They can on occasion and do." Karen often competes and wins against men. Doing it consistently is bit much to ask for the average woman pro but they are gaining ground every year. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> What man can beat Efren Reyes or Johnny Archer consistantly? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
The fact is, Open tournaments are won by the hot player, at that time. Johnny and Efren don't even win consistantly, compared to the women on the WPBA. I don't believe any man has strung together tournament wins, like Allison and Karen have in the WPBA.
Karen has proven, on the Joss Tour, that she can compete against the men and win. No man strings together wins on that tour, why should we expect Karen to do more?

Rich R.
06-21-2007, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Why get their butts handed to them by Efren and Strickland, when they can win against other women? <hr /></blockquote>
Just a little F.Y.I.
Recently, Strickland was defeated in a tournament by Liz Ford, who is currently ranked 37 in the WPBA.
IMHO, I don't think you can assume any man will automatically beat any woman. As in any match, it all depends who is playing better that day.

Cornerman
06-21-2007, 07:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> It seems to me that pool is the PERFECT sport for co-ed competition, physical size and strength has little or nothing to do with the skills necessary to excel in pool. Why shouldn't women be equally qualified to compete, same rules, same games, same venue....gender completely ignored?

My questions are "Why can't women compete on a level field with men?" "What will it take for pool to be a real co-ed sport?" <hr /></blockquote>Are you really asking for an answer to a question that's asked every three months on these boards? You've been here long enough.

Any answer that might have any sense in it is quickly dismissed, even by those who claim they are really asking for answers.

Start with questioning your premise. If it all things point to your premise being incorrect, then you have to put more effort into why it's incorrect, not why it should be correct.

I've got a ton of answers, all with real merit. But, the fact is, any answer I give that might answer your question may look negatively upon the great things the women have done and accomplished. IMO, it should just be left alone. The answer already is answered by action. If you really want some decent answers, you'll need to make sure you really want to hear some decent answers.

That being said, the answers I have may help ultimately to close the gap in skill set differences.

Fred &lt;~~~ no win situation

Sid_Vicious
06-21-2007, 07:53 PM
Facts are facts, and it is reality that an abnormally high percentage of the top 10 women in professional pool g-o-o-o-o-o...well you know the direction, and that's perfectly fine with me, it really is. They rule their sport above the bulk of those whom don't reside in the so-called, norm. I have been following these discussions as to why, even asked that question myself more than once, because it IS noteworthy knowledge about our sport, yet believe me, flames will fly, "What does it matter the sexual orientation! X-Y or Z can beat you jerk!", retaliation for bringing it up at all, from the hetros mainly.

My take...the lesbians do not worry about their appeal to the men, haven't while practicing in PHs, and they merely shoot without worrying about their skirt length or their hair. Lastly, there is a born-in testerone balance which MADE them this way, so that makes them more like men in competitiveness, hence, an advantage, mental and chemically.

The track record and rankings don't lie, there is a difference and it is discussion-worthy...sid~~~feels "somebody" perced to pounce again

cushioncrawler
06-21-2007, 08:32 PM
Iz this a good time to mention bent cues??? madMac.

jjinfla
06-21-2007, 08:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> My contention is that pool SHOULD be a game in which women and men could compete on an even field....someday.

My friend took the position that women CAN NOT compete on a level field and referred to the IPT matches as evidence of how the men overshadowed the women, but he had no real explanation for that happening.
<hr /></blockquote>

Now you sound like Earl Strickland when he said women don't belong in the IPT. I think that was just before Gerda beat him.

Which woman won the most money in the IPT? I am sure everyone thought it would be Allison. But that is not so. It was Sarah Ellerby. 8-ball really is her game and had the IPT stuck around I believe she would have done well.

Then there was the traveling matchup between Allison Fisher and Grady Mathews back in the 90's. I believe Grady was the winner there. But it was close. But then, was it all show, just entertainment, or was it real?

There may be 20 top women playing the game while there are hundreds of top men. So it really doesn't pay for the women to play against the men. When Allison Fisher enters a WPBA tournament she knows that 80 to 85% of them have no chance against her. Pretty good odds for Allison so she would be crazy to play the men where she very well could go two and out.

Jake

Sid_Vicious
06-21-2007, 08:57 PM
"There may be 20 top women playing the game while there are hundreds of top men. So it really doesn't pay for the women to play against the men."

I'm curious, is it just because Allison is a paid professional, by a sponsor, which steers her from the natural instinct of a man champion's trend, to "get the challenge" just because of the adrenalin? Seriously, ain't pool a stature game in the end of the day? sid

Deeman3
06-22-2007, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Facts are facts, and it is reality that an abnormally high percentage of the top 10 women in professional pool g-o-o-o-o-o...well you know the direction, and that's perfectly fine with me, it really is. They rule their sport above the bulk of those whom don't reside in the so-called, norm. I have been following these discussions as to why, even asked that question myself more than once, because it IS noteworthy knowledge about our sport, yet believe me, flames will fly, "What does it matter the sexual orientation! X-Y or Z can beat you jerk!", retaliation for bringing it up at all, from the hetros mainly. <font color="blue"> Sid, You know I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the orientation, just commenting on the fact their population may be so high at the top of the game. </font color>

My take...the lesbians do not worry about their appeal to the men, haven't while practicing in PHs, and they merely shoot without worrying about their skirt length or their hair. Lastly, there is a born-in testerone balance which MADE them this way, so that makes them more like men in competitiveness, hence, an advantage, mental and chemically. <font color="blue"> I think lesbians take as much notice of someone watching them as anyone does, it may just not be men. They have as much pride in their appearance and appeal as anyone. With them pretty well dominating physical sports, it may also be that certain type of games and sports are a "gathering place" and they just attain the skills by playing but I believe there is more. If I were a lesbain, and I have those tendencies, I would not pick pool as a place to meet women so it must be another connection, more mental, perhaps disciplinary.</font color>

The track record and rankings don't lie, there is a difference and it is discussion-worthy...sid~~~feels "somebody" perced to pounce again <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> Let them pounce....we can take it, we are men.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>

DickLeonard
06-22-2007, 07:22 AM
MadMac now I know why my wife has forty pairs.####

Sid_Vicious
06-22-2007, 08:01 AM
Personally speaking, the "player's PH" is a lousy lace to find hetro women, so lesbians just may already be in the majority there. Also, the lesbians I have seen, are in general not dolled up, mostly dressed down, so I kinda still believe they have less concerns over their sex appeal in a PH, hence a better comfort zone. JMHO...sid

Deeman3
06-22-2007, 08:37 AM
Not being blessed with lesbian radar, I really can't tell the difference and aside from normal curosity, don't care about their sexual preference. However, for discussion here, say you can tell their preference on site, Does that say they are just lousey dressers rather than not caring about their appearance or more possibly that their perception of style may be somewhat different than a middle aged male might reason? What is attractive to one orientation may or may not be to another. Gay men are often touted as neatly dressed and crisply groomed but are you saying the opposite may be true of lesbians? I don't beleive that is true as I don't really think you know which are which except in obvious cases. How do you distinguish a lesbian form a BI? Many that we would probably put into the lesbian category may be more grundge dressers, you never know. I never really know.

If a man or woman steps up and plays, I really don't care. I figure they earned the right to play and do not make excuses if they win. Some say they can't play against women, that's the reason they lose to them! Truth is they just can't play and are looking for an excuse, any excuse. I just can't agree with you that any of them "escape" to a pool hall because they can have less concerns over their sex appeal while there. I think they are there to kick ass and take names on the pool table, the exact same reason we are there. Being lesbian makes them no less sexual in both appeal and wanting to be appealing to others. There desire may just be to appeal to a different person than you may be.

SpiderMan
06-22-2007, 09:01 AM
Never said it was automatic. We all beat better players now and then, and lose to lesser ones. But if Liz Ford and Earl Strickland played a match every week for a year, how many do you think she'd win?

SpiderMan

slim
06-22-2007, 10:20 AM
Because boys do much more eye/hand activities than women in their earlier years they draw upon a MUCH larger base than the gals, its no different that a 5AAAAA high school competing agains a 2AA High School.

SpiderMan
06-22-2007, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> Because boys do much more eye/hand activities than women in their earlier years they draw upon a MUCH larger base than the gals, its no different that a 5AAAAA high school competing agains a 2AA High School. <hr /></blockquote>

I think you're sort of on the right track, but the "earlier years" aren't measured in one person's lifetime.

Over the millenia, survival and procreation of the species has depended greatly upon the males' hand/eye coordination, as well as certain mental aptitudes such as focus on a goal. The better hunters and warriors were more likely to pass their genes to surviving offspring, so these male-linked survival traits were more likely to be reinforced than those of males lacking in such ability.

Some games and sports yield an advantage to these heritable traits. Baseball may seem obvious (male arm/shoulder structure favoring a powerful throw, plus hand/eye coordination for hitting), billiards may not, but it's probably just a matter of degree.

SpiderMan

jjinfla
06-22-2007, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Never said it was automatic. ... if Liz Ford and Earl Strickland played a match every week for a year, how many do you think she'd win?

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Every one that he would let her win.

slim
06-22-2007, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Never said it was automatic. ... if Liz Ford and Earl Strickland played a match every week for a year, how many do you think she'd win?

So your saying that if a boy for the first 8-10 of his childhood plays sports, etc. and a young lady plays hop scotch, with her dolls and female toys that this has no lasting internal effect? I think when one learns eye hand coordination skills early on in life over another that they most often have a big advantage over someone that picks it up later in life. I know its not ALWAYS true but for example; take a 1000 girls playing baseball at a very young age and a 1000 boys that just study and read books, give them both a cue stick at the age of 15 and let them play 5 years the gals will definitely have a MUCH larger percentage of good players over the astute boys. It just makes sense. That's why allot of girls that are tom boys do so well against the boys.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Every one that he would let her win. <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
06-22-2007, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Never said it was automatic. ... if Liz Ford and Earl Strickland played a match every week for a year, how many do you think she'd win?

So your saying that if a boy for the first 8-10 of his childhood plays sports, etc. and a young lady plays hop scotch, with her dolls and female toys that this has no lasting internal effect? I think when one learns eye hand coordination skills early on in life over another that they most often have a big advantage over someone that picks it up later in life. I know its not ALWAYS true but for example; take a 1000 girls playing baseball at a very young age and a 1000 boys that just study and read books, give them both a cue stick at the age of 15 and let them play 5 years the gals will definitely have a MUCH larger percentage of good players over the astute boys. It just makes sense. That's why allot of girls that are tom boys do so well against the boys.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Every one that he would let her win. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Slim,

You've made an error in cut and paste. The second paragraph you show as written by me is not quoted from my post, nor is it my opinion.

SpiderMan

slim
06-22-2007, 03:16 PM
Sorry, was NOT intentional, as you can see I don't use this forum that often, I'll try and be more careful next time.
Thx
Slim

Koenig
06-22-2007, 03:49 PM
Heard from an article some years ago it was because of men`s difficulty to do more than one thing at a time. Hence concentration becomes easier.

Another theory could be that men were hunters, warriors and women caring for home and kids. The old stonage ploy.

Combined with the hand - eye theory one might let the culture and growing up theory go, I think.

Be how it will. The women pros are great! Everybody doesnt have to beat Efren to be just that.

BigRigTom
06-22-2007, 05:33 PM
I wasn't expecting this subject to be so popular of a discussion topic but glad it is taking a lot of twists and turns.

Male vs female is a constant subject around my house and here are some of the fine points.
I have been married for 30 years.

My wife is very smart holding 2 masters degrees (business &amp; politics).
She is very competitive in her own way.
On TV she likes "Life Time for Women", Cooking Shows, old movies like Casablanca and Gone with the Wind, Comedy and Romance shows, the sitcom Friends, then to a lesser extent she also likes 24, Stargate, 2 &amp; 1/2 Men, Boston Legal.
In APA League pool she is a skill level 3 in both 8 and 9 ball, she sometimes shoots like a 5 but seems to be content on being a 3 and has been for several years.....

I am reasonalbly intelligent with a BS degree in computer science (but I worked very hard to get it.)
I too am very competive in that I hate to lose at just about anything...so I obsess about the skills and knowledge aspect of just about anything I compete at to the point that it may be ridiculous.
On TV I like action and adventure plus documentaries about almost anything and I watch the news constantly.
I enjoy Clint Eastwood movies, The Sopranos, Heros, Wheel of Fortune and Pro Pool matches, plus durnig football season I am a Chicago Bears Fan and that is self explanatory!

Boys are Boys and Girls are Girls....and Gays are Gay.

I still wonder what any of that has to do with pool.
Is being "Man" "Masculine" "Chauvinistic" "Macho" generally a good thing when it comes to playing pool, or is pool just not matured into the world we live in.

If you examine the game and what it takes to excell, I still say that it is the perfect sport for coed competition and women should embrace it as a challenge to become equal if not superior.

I defy anyone to name any aspect of the game or any combination of aspects of the game that is beyond the ability of a women to master just because of her sex!

Sorry guys but size &amp; strength is NOT a factor in pool that can not be compensated for with good technique!

Where are all the women who enjoy taking on this kind of challenge?

cushioncrawler
06-22-2007, 06:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> MadMac now I know why my wife has forty pairs.####<hr /></blockquote>Dick -- Just reading some of the postings, it occurred to me that there is a fundamental difference in a man's makeup and a woman's makeup (dont mean makeup here). A man is designed to take the ball to the hole, a woman is designed to take the hole to the ball. Simple az that. madMac.

Dagwood
06-22-2007, 08:24 PM
LMAO Mac!!

Cornerman
06-23-2007, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> I defy anyone to name any aspect of the game or any combination of aspects of the game that is beyond the ability of a women to master just because of her sex!

Sorry guys but size &amp; strength is NOT a factor in pool that can not be compensated for with good technique! <hr /></blockquote>It really is these type of statements that deter any kind of meaningful discussion.

You've already got the wrong premise. Of course anyone can play this game. Anyone can do this game. But, if you're going to talk about why one set of people seemingly do better than another group, you'll need to first ask: Are they in fact doing better? If the anwswer is yes, then you must ask yourself why they're doing better.

YOu can't say, "I defy you to give any reason why they aren't doing the same." The premise is faulty. They aren't doing the same. Start with that premise. Then we can investigate things like:

The Numbers Game
Social Effects (all 10,000 of them)
Sports Biology
Women's Olympiads

If we all agree that there is definitely a difference in average learning rates, and final skill sets, then we can rationally discuss all the possibilities both physical and non-physical. The problem is, I don't think most people really want to discuss all the ideas that go into such a question.

Fred

Cornerman
06-23-2007, 08:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slim:</font><hr> take a 1000 girls playing baseball at a very young age and a 1000 boys that just study and read books, give them both a cue stick at the age of 15 and let them play 5 years the gals will definitely have a MUCH larger percentage of good players over the astute boys. It just makes sense. That's why allot of girls that are tom boys do so well against the boys.
<hr /></blockquote>This a good study. And, IMO, you'd find that the boys will still out do the girls. Most of us can site examples of friends or teammates we know that the exact situation happened, and the boys still out play the girls.

Fred

Sid_Vicious
06-23-2007, 12:56 PM
Let's put it this way, two nice looking ladies come into play in the area of my table, I have thoughts of them and how I am perceived in appearance, and then game I play. All I am saying is that the non hetro women, in a 95% population of male players in any PH, brush off that tendency. If anything, the lesbians push harder to prove themselves, whereas the dainty women want attention. This ain't rocket science as far as sociology goes. Everyone wants to be appealing to their "desired" sex, be it homo or hetro. As far as the grunge dressers and sexual orientation,,,it wasn't that long ago that the wpba pushed harder for dress codes, and previously, IMO, a high percentage of non-hetros were the bulk of the sloppy dressers. I never suggested that all grunge dressers were lesbians, ducking into PHs to hide away. Ain't hardly nobody worse than me for throwing on yesterdays clothes to go "just to the PH." sid

BigRigTom
06-23-2007, 02:42 PM
Fred,
Didn't tennis try to address this issue with that Billie Jean vs Bobby thing a few years back.
Tennis IS a very physical game where size and strength does make a difference.
That was pretty much a 1 time thing and basically proved nothing.

Forget the "PREMISE" and have fun with this idea...

What if the 5 best women of the world played the 5 best men of the world in pool with a mixed set of matches similar to the Mosconi Cup....and.... make that an on going annual event so that the top players could strive for the right to play in the event year after year and how long will it take for the women to put forward a team of women who can take that cup?

I would watch that match and look forward to seeing it too.

Cornerman
06-23-2007, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Fred,
Didn't tennis try to address this issue with that Billie Jean vs Bobby thing a few years back.
Tennis IS a very physical game where size and strength does make a difference.
That was pretty much a 1 time thing and basically proved nothing.<hr /></blockquote>It proved that a money-making gambler who was over-the-hill could still find a way to make money by playing the best female tennis player in the world at the time.

That match was not a battle of the sexes. I think anyone who knows anything about sports knew that.

[ QUOTE ]
Forget the "PREMISE" and have fun with this idea...<hr /></blockquote> I can't, Tom. I've done too much thinking on this subject, a subject that comes up every three months. I have answers or beginnings of answers, but I would need help from true sports biologists. There are so many legitimate reasons to think about But, is finding the answers to why the average man is better than the average woman a worthwhile cause? I don't think it is. But I think it's proper for people to admit that there's a huge difference in skillsets (on average) and move on.

If anyone's interested in my thoughts, I'm an e-mail away.

Fred

jjinfla
06-23-2007, 04:48 PM
The battle of the cheerleaders was on TV today. I sure didn't see too many men competing. In fact, none. Just a few catchers. If they did they wouldn't be able to compete with the women. Why is that?

Men and woman are different. Vivla differance

As far as men and women competing in pool I would have to say that men are two balls better.

Jake

BigRigTom
06-23-2007, 04:52 PM
Good take on the situation Jake! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Koenig
06-23-2007, 05:45 PM
IŽm still arguing the evolution-thingie. Concentration, hand-eye, aim among the male hunters were important to survive back in the days. As were completely other skills for women.

And with our modern way of life weŽll equal out in another 10.000 years or so.

But one post reminded me of "I robot"

-YouŽre a robot, you donŽt have feelings. Can you write a symphony?
-No can you?

I think the best WPBA pros are close. If they competed with the guys for a couple of years... who knows?

scaramouche
06-23-2007, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> IMO, a high percentage of non-hetros were the bulk of the sloppy dressers." sid <hr /></blockquote>

If that is your test, most of the males in the pool halls of America are non-hetros.

tpredes
06-23-2007, 11:04 PM
Interesting topic! My wife had the opportunity to spend a little time with Jeanette Lee during last year's BCA finals in Vegas. She and her husband and baby were out at the pool at the Riviera. They are truly some of the finest representatives of pool in the game. Mike Massey is a real gentleman. Some of the pros get pretty "famous" after a few years, but the majority of them are genuine and don't mind sharing their personal time with us "amateurs". Back to the topic. An old friend once said,"when you're on the table, you're not arm wrestling." That is what makes the game so great. On any given day a woman (no matter what persuasion)can beat the socks off of a man. Just look in some of the local leagues. I know that in our Central California leagues there are a few women that the guys just hate to play against. Not only can they pocket balls, but they soon learn to play safeties. That's when the game gets interesting! Women, bring it on. How about those Chinese girls??
tp

Duckie
06-23-2007, 11:12 PM
Any one think that playing pool just doesn't interest alot of women?

The hand/eye thing interst me....ever see a seamtress? Some of the best snipers were women......

This is a useless thread......the males are explaining why they can do so better....and the women are just laughing at all this.

Its more a numbers thing/interst thing.....more men shoot pool then women...

So they only way to answer this is to have the top players of both sexes play......

Sid_Vicious
06-24-2007, 09:06 AM
If the venue was 90% ratio of women to men(as the majority of the players PHs are not), even 25-50% women) then I agree, some grunjee men dressers probably would be, BUT you'd see far more men dress-up if there were more women in the house, natural way. Hetro women simply have a built-in gene to doll up when the environment is rich with the opposite sex. To do the exact opposite and dress "rough" just ain't in the natural feminine nature. Franky though, I'd suspect that gay men are very reluctant to be in player's PHs, whereas the gay women find it "comfortable." sid

Deeman3
06-25-2007, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> If the venue was 90% ratio of women to men(as the majority of the players PHs are not), even 25-50% women) then I agree, some grunjee men dressers probably would be, BUT you'd see far more men dress-up if there were more women in the house, natural way. Hetro women simply have a built-in gene to doll up when the environment is rich with the opposite sex. <font color="blue"> Wow! </font color> To do the exact opposite and dress "rough" just ain't in the natural feminine nature. <font color="blue"> Wow, again.. </font color> Franky though, I'd suspect that gay men are very reluctant to be in player's PHs, whereas the gay women find it "comfortable." sid <font color="blue"> Yep, Sid, all those gay men are just not comfortable watching other males bend over a table... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with someone above who says this discussion is pretty well useless but as Fred says, there are reasons but most won't discuss it rationally.

In the end, it really doesn't matter but, like you, my wife looks for these things and will often get her gaydar out and say, "Sally over there, she's gay and plays really well." I look at Sally and can't tell, never considered and really don't care who she sleeps with. I never consider they are dressing for me or any other male or female in particular. I now guess that a different style of dres appeals to gay, rather than straight players. I never considered that but, as I said, I never considered they were dressing for me, in any case. Maybe I was just payiong way too much attention to playing pool and not making sexual preference comparisons (was in the place for all the wrong reasons).

So, what do I look for? A wallet or a red hankerchief hanging in a back pocket. Oh! Sid, for the days we could just look at which side an earring was hanging from. Hey, what the heck, I never could remember which side was gay even back then. I guess I was trying to make balls while you watched this!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Is is lefty loosey or righty tighty? No, that for screws!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Deeman3
06-26-2007, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr>
I defy anyone to name any aspect of the game or any combination of aspects of the game that is beyond the ability of a women to master just because of her sex!
<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Being able to write her name in the snow outside the poolhall in yellow, after a big victory. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

cuechick
06-26-2007, 08:36 PM
This is an issue that has been hashed over and discussed many many times on both this board and AZ. As many have pointed out, many of the top females have beaten the top men. The Ipt, is better illustration of the ration of men to women in the sport. A very tiny percentage playing in those events were women and of those women only a few were top ranked pros.

I do think this is about two issues, numbers, the ratio just mentioned and culture. On the average most women come to the game much later than men.
This has changed a bit, with the popularity of the Women's Tour, many are starting much earlier. Jasmine being a prime example.

As far as the Gay vs. Straight, sub-topic, spurned in this thread. I do think there is a difference that straight women deal with that neither male or most lesbian players encounter, and it is this difference that I think keeps more of them (straight women) from reaching the top ranks and the difference is children.

Simply by the nature of their lifestyle when touring pros become Moms, or any serious female player, imo, it takes a toll on their game. Even if they have a supportive spouse, they are stil,l in most cases, the primary care giver. Even the few I know that have outside help (nanny's), still have a huge adjustment, kids are a major distraction from training and touring.
Most lesbian women I know live a lifestyle much more on par with men and can devote the time and energy toward this one goal. If you look at some of the top non gay women players, most are pretty young and still unencumbered.

I take strong exception to the idea that straight women are at a pool room to look cute and attract men. I am a straight woman and know many others that are just as serious and committedto playing pool. I also know some very attractive gay women, that look just as hot and most of the men in the room have no clue. Stereotyping by dress who is who and what is what is just foolish, and highly inaccurate in this day and age. I know at least one top player, many assume is gay, but is not at all, she simply doesn't care what people think.

slim
06-27-2007, 06:27 AM
Are women BCA Master Players as good as the BCA mens Master Players?

BigRigTom
06-27-2007, 08:45 AM
Thanks Cuechick for you very interesting and most intelligent response and comments to this subject.

You are not the 1st to mention that this subject has been discussed many times, I guess I just never saw all those other post. The thing that made me start thinking about it was, as mentioned earlier, my conversation with a friend at the APA Southcoast Regional Championships in Simi Valley, Ca. a couple of weeks ago.
Considering the responses to this thead it must still be worth discussing for some of us so I am happy to see comments such as yours and especially from women that have a certain knowledge and understanding of the situation (past, present and potential future).

I TIVO a lot of matches from Direct TV and I probably watch more pool than most people. I was watching just such a match yesterday after work and saw for the 1st time a Women Pro Pamela Treadway playing the 2nd Qtr. Final (2006 WPBA US Open from Albuquerque, NM) against Vivian Villarreal (http://vivianvillarreal.com) and she was only 19 yrs. old and 7 months pregnant....and....she broke and ran the 1st rack! Wow!

Pamela lost to Vivian but she did play well and under the circumstances she was amazing!

Deeman3
06-27-2007, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr>
I do think this is about two issues, numbers, the ratio just mentioned and culture. On the average most women come to the game much later than men. <font color="blue"> Agreed. </font color>
This has changed a bit, with the popularity of the Women's Tour, many are starting much earlier. Jasmine being a prime example. <font color="blue"> Boy can she play? </font color>

As far as the Gay vs. Straight, sub-topic, spurned in this thread. I do think there is a difference that straight women deal with that neither male or most lesbian players encounter, and it is this difference that I think keeps more of them (straight women) from reaching the top ranks and the difference is children. <font color="blue"> I never thought of that. This is a very good point.</font color>

Simply by the nature of their lifestyle when touring pros become Moms, or any serious female player, imo, it takes a toll on their game. Even if they have a supportive spouse, they are stil,l in most cases, the primary care giver. Even the few I know that have outside help (nanny's), still have a huge adjustment, kids are a major distraction from training and touring. <font color="blue"> Kids are a major distraction no matter how much help you get, you're still the mom. </font color>
Most lesbian women I know live a lifestyle much more on par with men and can devote the time and energy toward this one goal. If you look at some of the top non gay women players, most are pretty young and still unencumbered. <font color="blue"> You have sold me. While this is not the entire difference, it sure makes sense that it has a major impact. </font color>

I take strong exception to the idea that straight women are at a pool room to look cute and attract men. <font color="blue"> If you read back carefully, I was not the one who thought they were there for that purpose, I only said that lesbians might dress in a particular way not not to "not look attractive." I know many women who go there to win but stil like to look nice as well. </font color> I am a straight woman and know many others that are just as serious and committedto playing pool. I also know some very attractive gay women, that look just as hot and most of the men in the room have no clue. <font color="blue"> Yes, I made that point earlier. </font color> Stereotyping by dress who is who and what is what is just foolish, and highly inaccurate in this day and age. <font color="blue"> Again, that was not me...but I am looking for hot women who are attractive and will have absolutely nothing to do with me (see I'm married but still like looking, don't spoil my fantasies) /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color> I know at least one top player, many assume is gay, but is not at all, she simply doesn't care what people think. <font color="blue"> Well, if they are not going to come with labels attatched to their backs and you're not giving up her name, I'm not watching women on TV anymore....JK </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> While on pet peves and stuff, I wonder if Mitch calls his wife the "Striking Viking" in bed? In about 15 years of pool. I've never heard him refer to her by only Ewa, It's always "Ewa Matawa Laurence, The Striking Viking". While on a rant, why do they always say, "So and so is making a statement at the first win in every friggin' match? And Lord, please end the statement "How good did she hit it?" forever from their lips......

O.K. and how about pocket cams? Everyone love them as much as I do? Love missing the stroke just to see the word Simonis and a ball plop in!!!!

What about someone who finished 44th critiqing the play of someone in the finals?

Mitch, "She has really impressed me!" Have you ever seen mitch play?

O.K. DeeMan, calm down, turn the sound off and watch...

I still think the overiding point is that women will not compete on an even keel for many years with men at the top. To try on a grand scale would ruin much of the gains women's pool has made recently and kill the tour. I say let the best still enter the men's tournments and celebrate it when they can win but the ladies game is so much better managed today, why would the top girls even want on the men's side right now even if they can compete on occasion.

I do think a few ladies surprised a lot of folks in the ITP. That is not a bad thing. Remember what would have potentially happened to women'd tennis if the great Billie Jean King (and she was that) had played Jimmy Connors or a top seeded player at the time? We don't need that in pool.</font color>

bradb
06-27-2007, 03:06 PM
There's no physical attributes, that make men better, its the simple fact that there are more men playing the game than women, so you have a greater number of top players male players.

Take Alison Fisher, she is as good as any top male player and could hold here own in a match, but there's just not enough Alison's or Jeanette lees around.

In that trumped up farce between Lori John Jones and Mike Seigal, they picked Lori for her great looks, Alison would have wiped the floor with him.

Deeman3
06-27-2007, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> There's no physical attributes, that make men better, its the simple fact that there are more men playing the game than women, so you have a greater number of top players male players.

Take Alison Fisher, she is as good as any top male player and could hold here own in a match, but there's just not enough Alison's or Jeanette lees around. <font color="blue"> Now, I really can't go that far and agree that Allison is as good as any top male player. I don't believe even she would claim that. She is exceptional, she is rapidly being joined by many other exceptional women players mostly from overseas, but they are not equal to the top men's play on any consistent basis. </font color>

In that trumped up farce between Lori John Jones and Mike Seigal, they picked Lori for her great looks, Alison would have wiped the floor with him. <font color="blue"> That may have been a trumped up farce but, again, you are not talking about the top male player either. Mike, like Lori Jon was far from his competitive years. It was farcical from both sides. As soon as the real top players jumped into the fray, the farce ended (at least til the checks started bouncing). </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

bradb
06-27-2007, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> There's no physical attributes, that make men better, its the simple fact that there are more men playing the game than women, so you have a greater number of top players male players.

Take Alison Fisher, she is as good as any top male player and could hold here own in a match, but there's just not enough Alison's or Jeanette lees around. <font color="blue"> Now, I really can't go that far and agree that Allison is as good as any top male player. I don't believe even she would claim that. She is exceptional, she is rapidly being joined by many other exceptional women players mostly from overseas, but they are not equal to the top men's play on any consistent basis. </font color>

In that trumped up farce between Lori John Jones and Mike Seigal, they picked Lori for her great looks, Alison would have wiped the floor with him. <font color="blue"> That may have been a trumped up farce but, again, you are not talking about the top male player either. Mike, like Lori Jon was far from his competitive years. It was farcical from both sides. As soon as the real top players jumped into the fray, the farce ended (at least til the checks started bouncing). </font color> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

I would have to qualify that and say she is "capable" of beating the top male players, and if she was ranked with them after several tournaments I would venture to say she would make at least the top 20. I have seen her break and run 5 or 6 racks, if you can do that you can beat anybody.

I guess a better way to make my point is if there were a lot more women players we could possibly find even better players than Alison. I still contend that there is nothing in the physical make up of M&amp;F that would say one should dominate over the other. Its a finesse game not a power one, and you don't need a gorrila break. Many players are going to the soft controlled break.

The Mike Seigal thing is probably not a good example, Lori was destroyed by the hoopla and Mike thrives on it, yes, he had been out of the game for a while, but under ordinary circumstances she should have won even though she's far below Alison.

Cornerman
06-28-2007, 05:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> I still contend that there is nothing in the physical make up of M&amp;F that would say one should dominate over the other. <hr /></blockquote>It's never been about gorilla strength, so why does anyone continue that red herring line???? In a nutshell, the game is about balance and coordination. If you (general) do some study on that, then you can make some kind of statement about physical elements in pool. Until then, the discussion becomes meaningless because the proponents of "everyone is equal" is just handing out PC straws. And any "answers" about physcial advantages would just be met with anger.

Balance and coordination. Or, coordinated balance. As well as the dozens of social issues. There isn't just one issue.

IMO, those that continue to say that there is no physical reason why women on average can't compete with men are dooming the advancement of women in pool. Once we get passed admitting, then we can attack how to improve the averages.

Fred &lt;~~~ it's never been about brute strength

Chopstick
06-28-2007, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>

Take Alison Fisher, she is as good as any top male player and could hold here own in a match, but there's just not enough Alison's or Jeanette lees around.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">I saw Allison at the IPT in Orlando. Bustamonte spanked her like a baby. There is no way she can match up with him. The women will win a match against the men every now and then but match them straight up day after day, no.

I want to thank cuechick for the best explanation I have ever heard of this well worn question. To this I would like to add my own two cents. It has been said that there are many more men who play pool and therefore have a much larger pool of talent to draw from. Well, maybe if we shot pool in the mall we would have enough women players to permanently confuse Sydney's radar. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It is well known that the portion of a womans brain that deals with talking is eight times the size of a mans (no kidding, it really is). Well, there's no talking in pool(except for Earl). They have given up one of their principal advantages right there.

Man all have a built in sense of direction and I think that this gives them an advantage in knowing what direction the balls gonna go.

Why do men shoot pool in the first place? Cause it's cool. When have you ever looked at something a woman has done and said, now that's cool. Women have a sense of style not a sense of cool.

Would a woman ever do something like this?

</font color> http://www.bbqreport.com/wp-content/resources/hemi.jpg

<font color="blue">I rest my case. </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Deeman3
06-28-2007, 09:47 AM
Chop,

I bet that guy can run a rack. The picture brought tears to my eyes....However, I did see a girl in Thailand do something that I classified as "cool" but I didn't have a camera with me to prove it. Eight tiimes more talking power, boy that is sexy.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
06-28-2007, 05:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr>It is well known that the portion of a womans brain that deals with talking is eight times the size of a mans (no kidding, it really is). Well, there's no talking in pool(except for Earl). </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
Hmmm, does this mean that Earl is really a ............? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
His voice is kind of high. Is an operation in his future? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bradb
06-28-2007, 08:10 PM
quote=Cornerman] <hr /></blockquote>It's never been about gorilla strength, so why does anyone continue that red herring line???? In a nutshell, the game is about balance and coordination. If you (general) do some study on that, then you can make some kind of statement about physical elements in pool. Until then, the discussion becomes meaningless because the proponents of "everyone is equal" is just handing out PC straws. And any "answers" about physcial advantages would just be met with anger.

Balance and coordination. Or, coordinated balance. As well as the dozens of social issues. There isn't just one issue.
---------------------



OH please!... you can't be serious about the game just being balance and co-ordination? lets get some perspective here. There are women circus performers who have encredible balance in high wire acts. And all the women pool players have fantastic coordination. And NO! I'm the farthest from being PC as any red neck (like me) on here, Thats not my excuse.

Besides talent, the game as you must know as a player is all about attitude, confidence and control of your nerves and emotions under pressure. If you were to tell me that then you would have some credibility. If Alison lost like the other post said then obviously she was off her game. And maybe the pressure of playing a top male player got to her.

Hell I've seen, and you have too, great male players fold under certain circumstances.

As far as a gorilla break the men do have better breaks! but thats not the deciding factor, you missed my point there.

So my argument still stands... physical atributes are not the deciding factor in playing pool. There's fat, skinny, short, tall, stubby, weak, strong, bowlegged, and pot bellied players all in the top ranks.

And what the hell are you talking about dooming women in Pool? Thats a vote of confidence.
And I hate red herrings, nothing but Salmon and trout up here, and I like it smoked. Brad /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2007, 08:54 PM
"The Mike Seigal thing is probably not a good example, Lori was destroyed by the hoopla and Mike thrives on it"

Maybe you hit upon the very thing that staggers the women...mental doubt against men supposedly their speed and yet, an out of pool-shape player even so. I believe that's what is called, "Having the balls to play." There is a meaningfull conatation with that terminoligy. sid

Cornerman
06-29-2007, 08:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> Balance and coordination. Or, coordinated balance. As well as the dozens of social issues. There isn't just one issue.
<hr /></blockquote>



OH please!... you can't be serious about the game just being balance and co-ordination?Let's get some perspective here.<hr /></blockquote> And this is exactly why we can't have a decent discussion on this. I clearly have stated (and you've even quoted me) that there isn't just one issue. And then you mock my statement. The study of balance and coordination isn't just a one statement idea. It's a lifelong study of the human body and how it deals with sporting movements. That's a whole lot different than "women are good on the highwire." YOu'd have to know some basic ideas on how a highwire balance act works.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr>And what the hell are you talking about dooming women in Pool? Thats a vote of confidence.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm saying that as long as people try to convince themselves that there are no physical attributes that give men an advantage (or women a disadvantage), then nobody will focus on those differences, and nobody will take the effort to improve the physical portion of the women's game. But, we as a sport must be willing to admit there's a difference. If not, then no improvement happens.

Brad, I've done a bit of study on this. If you're interested in hearing a tidbit, I'd be happy to email you. But what I won't do is attempt to rebut anybody's off-the-cuff reply when they clearly haven't done the same amount of study. That's not fair to anyone, and I'd just be the target of the PC world.

Fred

bradb
06-29-2007, 09:38 AM
Ok Cornerman no offence meant, I just got my dander up on the PC thing, I see your point about there are differences that have'nt been defined except through some areas of science which certainly don't get into the playing of pool. And its obvious that in just about all other sports the physical difference is just too much for women to compete evenly. But pool is such a mind game and when women play men they are feeling a preasure we can never know. So if there was a M/F league then women might feel that they have been given a vote of confidence and some would enter. Of course having said that I realize it would be very difficult for them as the top women can be counted on one hand, and more women coming into pool does'nt look realistic any time soon.

So as many have mentioned in this thread it would'nt be realistic money wise for women to enter, and it would blur the boundries of existing female leagues.

It might be interesting to see the top male, play the top female in a real playoff exhibition match and they drop the BS, hoopla, asinine annoucing and circus atmosphere, but that probably won't happen either.

-Brad

Deeman3
06-29-2007, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> and more women coming into pool does'nt look realistic any time soon.

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">Are you serious in this statement? There are tons of new women coming into the game and doing very well, now more than ever. </font color>

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 01:52 PM
My idea was and still is:
The WPBA should muster a team of 5 of the best women pros and challenge the BCA to muster the 5 best men pros then hold a competition similar to the Mosconi Cup....but the format should definitely be a mixture of 8 ball and 9 ball and maybe even throw in some 7 ball and 10 ball with some ring games and scotch doubles type play.

Then here is the main point....this should be an ANNUAL event that will allow both women and men to work toward qualifying for their respective teams and rising in the ranks and skills needed to be competitive, hopefully improving year after year.

Women like Allison Fisher and Karen Corr could spearhead such and effort and I would definitely watch that on ESPN or even ABC Monday Night Billiards!...or maybe it would be more suitable to FOX FRIDAY NIGHT FAIR AND BALANCED BILLIARDS! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Deeman3
06-29-2007, 02:24 PM
It all sounds like a good idea and I'm sure many would tune in. I think we have to understand that, as Fred Mentioned, he and others have done quite a bit of study, thinking and discussion on this very subject, but if you start talking about this you can very quickly be wrongly labeled sexist if you discuss factual evidence and differences in men's and women's performance, which, in itself, limits the creative dialog that would bring this very thing forward for the women as well as the men. Gains women have made in the game are not a bad thing, they are good but hiding behind arguments that the sexes are, indeed, equal, rather than different destroys any meaningful progress towards true understanding.

If the competition you mention is for fun, entertainment and not the dog and pony show of the tennis world sham in the 1970's it could be good for pool overall. If ment to "put women in their place" it would be fruitless and damaging to pool and women's pool in particular. I am very interested in the subject but believe Fred is correct in what we would end up with if discussed openly. I really think there is much to be learned and be entertained by in a good, continuous Scotch Doubles competition at the highest levels, not a one day shoot at ESPN World with teams thrown together over a beer.

dr_dave
06-29-2007, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... I'm saying that as long as people try to convince themselves that there are no physical attributes that give men an advantage (or women a disadvantage), then nobody will focus on those differences, and nobody will take the effort to improve the physical portion of the women's game. But, we as a sport must be willing to admit there's a difference. If not, then no improvement happens.

Brad, I've done a bit of study on this. If you're interested in hearing a tidbit, I'd be happy to email you. ...<hr /></blockquote>Fred, I would like to receive your e-mail with your perspectives. You have obviously thought about and studied these things more than most people. My e-mail address is available through my profile. A PM would work also. I can understand why you might not want to post your ideas publicly.

Thanks,
Dave

Deeman3
06-29-2007, 02:52 PM
Me too!

dsands@shym.co.kr

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 02:54 PM
Me too!

Tom@BigRigToys.com

jjinfla
06-29-2007, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> My idea was and still is:
The WPBA should muster a team of 5 of the best women pros and challenge the BCA to muster the 5 best men pros then hold a competition similar to the Mosconi Cup.... <hr /></blockquote>

I believe Charlie Williams did something like that in Asia. But he mixed the women with the men. Two teams played each other and each team had one or maybe two women.

Jake

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 06:52 PM
I have a feeling that the Men may find they are NOT as good as they think they are if they were to try my suggestion.
Wish I had Bill Gates money, I would sponser the event myself.
An unlike Kevin I would pay the winners! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif RIGHT WAY!
Then do it again next year and the year after and the year after....it would be interesting to see who is the favorites on the 10th anniversity.

Rich R.
06-29-2007, 07:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> My idea was and still is:
The WPBA should muster a team of 5 of the best women pros and challenge the BCA to muster the 5 best men pros then hold a competition similar to the Mosconi Cup.... <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I believe Charlie Williams did something like that in Asia. But he mixed the women with the men. Two teams played each other and each team had one or maybe two women. <hr /></blockquote>
Jake, I believe you are correct, however, IIRC, Charlie hasn't really attracted the top line of WPBA players, like Allison and Karen, to participate.

Qtec
06-29-2007, 08:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But pool is such a mind game and when women play men they are feeling a preasure we can never know. <hr /></blockquote>

I disagree. I would say that there is more pressure on the man in these matches simply because they are expected to win.

Qtec

bradb
07-03-2007, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
But pool is such a mind game and when women play men they are feeling a preasure we can never know. <hr /></blockquote>

I disagree. I would say that there is more pressure on the man in these matches simply because they are expected to win.

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

No, I don't think so, ask any women who has tried to get into a male dominated groups, firefighters, police, military, its much more difficult for women because they are on the mens turf.

bradb
07-03-2007, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... I'm saying that as long as people try to convince themselves that there are no physical attributes that give men an advantage (or women a disadvantage), then nobody will focus on those differences, and nobody will take the effort to improve the physical portion of the women's game. But, we as a sport must be willing to admit there's a difference. If not, then no improvement happens.

Brad, I've done a bit of study on this. If you're interested in hearing a tidbit, I'd be happy to email you. ...<hr /></blockquote>Fred, I would like to receive your e-mail with your perspectives. You have obviously thought about and studied these things more than most people. My e-mail address is available through my profile. A PM would work also. I can understand why you might not want to post your ideas publicly.

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

-I'll get my e-mail to you for the study whatever you have sounds interesting, but here is my position based on just observation.

Of course there is difference physically and mentally in all sports, but what I'm saying is there is very little difference in pool... Its a human standing at a table and moving their arm! .... There is only one area left that there might be a difference and that is emotionally, women handle pressure differently then men so that could be a factor, but I don't belief we can say for sure unless we have a broader base of women/men players to study.

So do we really know if we are doing the right thing when we say we should tell women that they don't have it to compete with us, when we're not exactly sure if thats true.

bradb
07-03-2007, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bradb:</font><hr> and more women coming into pool does'nt look realistic any time soon.

<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">Are you serious in this statement? There are tons of new women coming into the game and doing very well, now more than ever. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

I mean that it will be a long time, if ever, that the number of interested women in billiards will equal that of the men.

Sid_Vicious
07-03-2007, 06:40 PM
I propose a different situation. Take the top five women, and the 5 thru 10 ranked males, and run your test. Hell it may take one event and I am proved wrong, but let's give the ladies a spot with that ladder event. Time to GOTP or S, ladies. Besides, the challenge is what this sport is all about. Play 5 thru 10 and see what happens. I'd enjoy the event, absolutely, with with a win on either side of the gender...sid

bradb
07-04-2007, 10:54 PM
It would have to be a long series so everyone has a chance to play their best game.

The new thread just entered by koreandragon says it all. Its only a matter of time before we start getting women players who can kick ass in mens pool. the women have all the skills that men have to play this game and sooner or later we will have to revise our thinking.