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Cydpkt
06-29-2007, 11:03 AM
A couple of days ago we put up a SL3 and our opponents played a SL5. (8 Ball for a 2-4 race) The SL5 scratches on the 8 in the first game, then wins 2 games. In the 4th game the SL5 runs down to the 8 but misses our SL3 passes up easier shots and shoots 2 way shots instead leaving the SL5 tough. He kicks, misses the 8 and puts his hand in the corner pocket when the cue gets close only to pull it out when the SL3 tells him not to touch the ball. On his next shot with the cue ball headed toward the side pocket he grabs the cue ball 8"-10" from the pocket. He said it wasn't moving fast enough to scratch. The team captain let it pass but said if it happened again it was match. The SL5 has been in the league for 3 years but played like he didn't know any better. How would you have dealt with it?

bsmutz
06-29-2007, 11:24 AM
That's a toughie. He had already been warned about touching the cue ball before it stopped rolling, so you would have been within your rights calling it loss of game the 2nd time. However, you also have the sportsmanship thing to deal with. When I first started, I made a couple of mistakes (not marking pocket and shooting BIH out of the kitchen after a scratch on the break) and it cost me the game/match one time and BIH/game the 2nd time. It definitely made me remember my mistakes later on. However, it didn't feel like the other team was being very fair by sitting there watching me set up wrong and not saying anything until after I had shot. Your situation is a little different. I would have been inclined to enforce the rules on that one.

Deeman3
06-29-2007, 11:52 AM
Try to tell someone you just beat in a match for money that the cue would not have scratched. The guy should have had loss of game. There is no excuse for touching a moving ball, especially a cue ball that will/might scratch.

Most players learn this by the time they are 10 years old!

MrLucky
06-29-2007, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> A couple of days ago we put up a SL3 and our opponents played a SL5. (8 Ball for a 2-4 race) The SL5 scratches on the 8 in the first game, then wins 2 games. In the 4th game the SL5 runs down to the 8 but misses our SL3 passes up easier shots and shoots 2 way shots instead leaving the SL5 tough. He kicks, misses the 8 and puts his hand in the corner pocket when the cue gets close only to pull it out when the SL3 tells him not to touch the ball. On his next shot with the cue ball headed toward the side pocket he grabs the cue ball 8"-10" from the pocket. He said it wasn't moving fast enough to scratch. The team captain let it pass but said if it happened again it was match. The SL5 has been in the league for 3 years but played like he didn't know any better. How would you have dealt with it? <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="green">LMAO! if he did not think it would scratch why did he put his paws on it ??? if you read the APA manual that is loss of game to impede the roll of the 8 while in play or to stop it from scratching! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 02:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> A couple of days ago we put up a SL3 and our opponents played a SL5. (8 Ball for a 2-4 race) The SL5 scratches on the 8 in the first game, then wins 2 games. In the 4th game the SL5 runs down to the 8 but misses our SL3 passes up easier shots and shoots 2 way shots instead leaving the SL5 tough. He kicks, misses the 8 and puts his hand in the corner pocket when the cue gets close only to pull it out when the SL3 tells him not to touch the ball. On his next shot with the cue ball headed toward the side pocket he grabs the cue ball 8"-10" from the pocket. He said it wasn't moving fast enough to scratch. The team captain let it pass but said if it happened again it was match. The SL5 has been in the league for 3 years but played like he didn't know any better. How would you have dealt with it? <hr /></blockquote>

If I understand the situation....
He made the 8 ball where he marked it and then after making the 8 properly he pickup up the still roling cue ball...

If that is the correct understanding then he has fouled and has lost the game...period.

Cydpkt
06-29-2007, 02:39 PM
Sorry for the lack of explanation. He attempted to hit the 8 and fouled by missing it completely then grabbed the cue ball as it was on its way to the side pocket.

Deeman3
06-29-2007, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> Sorry for the lack of explanation. He attempted to hit the 8 and fouled by missing it completely then grabbed the cue ball as it was on its way to the side pocket. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

This is an APA 5 in Montana? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 02:51 PM
Then it is a cue ball foul and ball in hand for your player....not...loss of game.
You can then write him up for unsportsman like conduct and that is unfortunately the APA rules.

I had a similar incident where the cue ball was moving swiftly toward a cluster of balls after the opponent clearly had missed the object ball on a difficult shot attempt.
He grabed the cue ball to keep it from breaking up the cluster...this was 9 ball.
The result is the same....
Ball in hand and play the table as is.
Write up the player for unsportsman like conduct if you want and hope he will not be such a dick in the future.

pooltchr
06-29-2007, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Then it is a cue ball foul and ball in hand for your player....not...loss of game.
You can then write him up for unsportsman like conduct and that is unfortunately the APA rules.

I had a similar incident where the cue ball was moving swiftly toward a cluster of balls after the opponent clearly had missed the object ball on a difficult shot attempt.
He grabed the cue ball to keep it from breaking up the cluster...this was 9 ball.
The result is the same....
Ball in hand and play the table as is.
Write up the player for unsportsman like conduct if you want and hope he will not be such a dick in the future. <hr /></blockquote>

I believe you are wrong. A foul on the 8 is loss of game. Touching a moving cue ball is a foul. If you foul on the 8, it's loss of game. He fouled two different ways on the shot.
Loss of game.
Steve

BigRigTom
06-29-2007, 03:45 PM
A foul on the 8 is only loss of game if the 8 or cue ball or both are pocketed.

jjinfla
06-29-2007, 06:06 PM
I see nothing changes. This happens all the time within the APA. Afterall, they are learning the game.

Players, even up to some 7's, are frequently grabbing the CB before it stops rolling. Also grabbing and replacing other balls that were incidently moved. Happens all the time.

It takes discipline to learn not to do those things.

My first thought when I read your post is that you were going to complain about the SL3. He knows more than he should to still be a 3. LOL.

And in the other post where the person complained that the other team didn't tell him he was lined up wrong that is not their job. If you don't want to blame yourself because it was your blunder then you should blame your teammates. Where were they?

Take it all as a learning experience.

Actually maybe you should play someone some games for money and then see what he does when you commit a blunder. Will you complain to him when after you shoot the 6 he asks why you didn't shoot the 5 playing 9 ball? Yep, that is a real learning experience, nothing you can do but pick up the CB, and give him BIH, and go sit in a chair, saying, "how dumb I am".

LOL

But it is all fun.

Jake

Cydpkt
06-29-2007, 11:51 PM
We could have really made a big point about it but didn't after all it is an APA match and not a money game. The SL3 has the head for the game just hasn't honed the skills yet. She will be a decent player in the future. I guess I shouldn't be surprised on what some people will do to get that win. I actually enjoy watching someone shoot the 4 and play shape for the 6 only to tell them that they are on the 5 before they shoot. If they make a great shot to stay at the table more power to them. Would I do this in a money match.....No way. I enjoy the handicap and having to raise my game to win. League or money I like to let them rack and then sit and watch. Its hard for them to hurt you when they are sitting down. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
06-30-2007, 07:09 AM
It is afterall a learning experience. Does the person learn more by having someone tell them they are about to make a mistake or by making the mistake and then being told and embarrassed.

Of course, your teammate may not appreciate you "coaching" the opponent. He may wonder whose side you are on.

Then if you do move to the BCA and play you will find that no one can say anything to the person who is at the table. If you do it is a foul. The player then has to take responsibility for his actions.

It all depends on how seriously you want to take the "game".

Jake

BigRigTom
06-30-2007, 08:43 AM
Jake, Well said!

I play in the APA and I have had these things happen too. I have been chastised by my own team mate for helping the opponent avoid a "dumb" foul (shooting the wrong ball, using the 9 as a cue ball, failing to mark the pocket of the 8, reaching for a rolling cue ball, even reaching to pickup the cue ball because he mistakenly thought he had ball in hand and finally of course attempting to shoot from outside the kitchen on the 1st shot following a break and scratch.)
One player (after I announced an obvious foul on our player)ask me whose side I was on! and at the top of his lungs at that!

I like to play fair, I like the other guy to do the same.
I also understand if the other player chooses to accept any advantage given and if it is due to my own mistake then I am the one who needs to improve. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

MrLucky
07-01-2007, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Then it is a cue ball foul and ball in hand for your player....not...loss of game.
You can then write him up for unsportsman like conduct and that is unfortunately the APA rules.

I had a similar incident where the cue ball was moving swiftly toward a cluster of balls after the opponent clearly had missed the object ball on a difficult shot attempt.
He grabed the cue ball to keep it from breaking up the cluster...this was 9 ball.
The result is the same....
Ball in hand and play the table as is.
Write up the player for unsportsman like conduct if you want and hope he will not be such a dick in the future. <hr /></blockquote>

I believe you are wrong. A foul on the 8 is loss of game. Touching a moving cue ball is a foul. If you foul on the 8, it's loss of game. He fouled two different ways on the shot.
Loss of game.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
You're correct!

Jager85
07-02-2007, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> Then it is a cue ball foul and ball in hand for your player....not...loss of game.
You can then write him up for unsportsman like conduct and that is unfortunately the APA rules.

I had a similar incident where the cue ball was moving swiftly toward a cluster of balls after the opponent clearly had missed the object ball on a difficult shot attempt.
He grabed the cue ball to keep it from breaking up the cluster...this was 9 ball.
The result is the same....
Ball in hand and play the table as is.
Write up the player for unsportsman like conduct if you want and hope he will not be such a dick in the future. <hr /></blockquote>

I believe you are wrong. A foul on the 8 is loss of game. Touching a moving cue ball is a foul. If you foul on the 8, it's loss of game. He fouled two different ways on the shot.
Loss of game.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
You're correct! <hr /></blockquote>

It is only a loss of game if it is scratched, or one of the 2 balls jumps off the table. However, moving the ball when there is a chance of a scratch is a loss of game. You can tell he did this just because he was afraid of scratching so this loss should have been enforced.

Curtis

New2Pool
07-02-2007, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> A foul on the 8 is only loss of game if the 8 or cue ball or both are pocketed. <hr /></blockquote>

As I understand it, a foul on the 8 ball is only loss of game if the eight ball is made or jumped from the table.

From BCA Rule Book (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml)
[ QUOTE ]
4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence. <hr /></blockquote>

BigRigTom
07-02-2007, 03:58 PM
Jager85....you are correct but the call always goes to the shooter unless a 3 observer is requested before the shot.
The shooter in this case was being a dick from the get go.
Chances are he would have denied that the cue ball would have scratched and back around the circle you go.

New2Pool....you apparently didn't read the whole post (actually the "SUBJECT" line should have been a clue)because we are talking the APA ....not....the BCA.
A World of difference in this case. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

pooltchr
07-02-2007, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote New2Pool:</font><hr>
As I understand it, a foul on the 8 ball is only loss of game if the eight ball is made or jumped from the table.

From BCA Rule Book (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml)
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Correct...if you are playing by BCA rules. The APA has their own set of rules, which were in effect in the situation described in the thread.
Steve

MrLucky
07-03-2007, 04:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote New2Pool:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BigRigTom:</font><hr> A foul on the 8 is only loss of game if the 8 or cue ball or both are pocketed. <hr /></blockquote>

As I understand it, a foul on the 8 ball is only loss of game if the eight ball is made or jumped from the table.

From BCA Rule Book (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_8bl.shtml)
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
4.19 PLAYING THE 8-BALL
When the 8-ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8-ball is not pocketed or jumped from the table. Incoming player has cue ball in hand. Note: A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> This was a APA not BCA question!!!!!! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

sack316
07-06-2007, 05:30 AM
from the APA rulebook:

"A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the 8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation."

Sack

MrLucky
07-06-2007, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr> from the APA rulebook:

"A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the 8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation."

Sack <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="brown"> That was my first response ! In APA when you alter the course of the ball on the 8 you lose! Thanks for printing the rule! </font color> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

sack316
07-06-2007, 05:50 AM
no problem! Now we can all sleep a little easier /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BigRigTom
07-06-2007, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr> from the APA rulebook:

"A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the 8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation."

Sack <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for posting this...I didn't remember it being stated like that and I have read that book several times!!!!!

For anyone who does NOT have a copy handy here is the complete text concerning this subject from page 51 of the Team Manual.....
item "f." is the one quoted above.
Thanks again Sack.
<font color="red"> 10. THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO LOSE:
a. Your opponent pockets his numerical group and legally pockets
the 8-ball.
b. You pocket the 8-ball out-of-turn or knock it on the floor.
c. When playing the 8-ball, you pocket the 8-ball in the wrong pocket or
fail to properly mark the pocket where the 8-ball went in.
d. You foul the cue ball and then pocket the 8-ball.
e. When playing the 8-ball, you scratch. You lose whether or not you
pocket the 8-ball.
Note: If you are shooting at the 8-ball and miss it altogether, you have fouled
and your opponent has ball-in-hand, but you donít lose because of this foul.
f. A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the 8-ball or the cue ball
in a game losing situation. </font color>

There is still the question of "Was it a game losing situation?" that call will usually go to the shooter if no 3rd party observer was requested prior to the shot.
Based on the original description of this circumstances it would have still come out the same and the only recourse is to write up the player for "unsportsman like conduct".

I know that sort of sucks but I have seen many cases where it is the catch all for these type of games where no official referee is observing the match.

Cydpkt
07-06-2007, 09:24 AM
The only problem is that with out a referee you could really get some people mad by asking to have someone watch their every shot. (It has crossed my mind a couple of times against certain people) Long story short: Don't touch the cue ball! Tell your opponent it is a foul and let them grab the cue ball.
I get frustrated with players who turn their back to the table when their opponent is shooting. We had a guy 3 nights ago walk up to the table and grab the cue ball because when he turned around it looked like there had been a foul. Did he ask his opponent? (nope) Just grabbed the cue ball and walked around the table. His face did turn a little red when his opponent walked up to him and said what are you doing?

MrLucky
07-07-2007, 04:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cydpkt:</font><hr> Sorry for the lack of explanation. He attempted to hit the 8 and fouled by missing it completely then grabbed the cue ball as it was on its way to the side pocket. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> According to this the shooter was attempting the 8 ball! therefore a scratch would have been a loss! If it did not scratch or had been impeded on its way to a scratch since he missed the 8 it would then have been BIH !</font color>

jjinfla
07-07-2007, 06:40 AM
If your team Captain, who must have been watching the shot, let it pass then we have to assume that he agreed that the CB would not have made it to the pocket for a scratch and loss of game.

That is your Captain's decision so you, and your team, have to live with it.

I suggest you talk this over with your teammates just so they are all on the same track. Be prepared to show them the rule book. Unfortunately, you will most likely find out that most of them don't care and don't even want to be bothered.

Jake